L-cancelling gone?

[Blatherskite]

I don't know why people are using balance as an argument for why ATs are out. There's no freaking balance in Brawl. Have you even looked at any of the demo vids? Ike is a joke. Dk is joke. Bowser is only less of a joke. There's no indication that the developers put a lot of thought into balance. The only thing they did was nerf fox into oblivion, but who cares since Peach is there to fill the void.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Didnt you read the rest I said? It's pointless to make someone go out of their way to press a button to shorten lag.. why would you want that? it's just an extra thing to do. Once you get good at it you'll do it all the time ANYWAY. So it really just divides the people who arent used to it compared to the ones who are, why make such a division? I dont feel competitiveness should be decided on who got into the habit of pressing a button always when landing, it's illogical

...prove me wrong.

So the game will be fun for more than one specific group. For example, when I started playing, I thought the Shine (as in it's actual definition, used as an attack) was absolutely useless. Ness was my main, and I dominated my friends because of his DJC and fair spam. Then I started getting more advanced strategies. My main eventually switched to Falco. I learned more advanced techs, (SHB, Shine cancels, wavedashing, SHFFLing, etc.) and began playing with them as I wanted.

Now, had I not learned these techniques, I would still be playing the game and having fun with my much less technical and complicated game. But since I wanted to advance, and wanted to make the game more complicated, I chose to begin using these techniques. Someone who doesn't want to use them can still have fun playing without being as technical

Sakurai, intentional or no, made an almost perfect fighter in Melee. It's appeal went well beyond it's target audience, and it's one of Nintendo's best selling games because of this.

Removing L cancelling, and by extension, Melee's advanced game, he breaks this wide appeal strategy of Melee, and makes shield grabs better.

On top of this, projectiles are less effective, so you have no choice but to approach.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

For starters, shield grabbing has also been sped up according to gimpyfish.


edit: this thread moves too fast

 

[Sliq]

You know what, I think we actually agree on things, it's just that you guys care alot more about a small loss of depth than I do, because I rather have balance. BUT, If it was like Auto- L-Cancel, then we'd have both!! Wouldnt that be great?

My prediction is that it wont be as shortened as L-Canceling in melee, but it will be significantly shortened generally, and that is what I hope for..

Didnt Gimpy say that attacks were generally less laggy when landing tho? I think we're off to a good start.

What a casual hopes for and wants doesn't impact us competitives, and vice vers.

Reduced lag is a start, but it needs to be on level with Melee l-canceling, otherwise shield grabbing will be predominant, and it'll be a ****ing bland lame *** turtle fest.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

We are speculating based off of current knowledge; this has been stated like 400 billion ****ing times. WE KNOW THINGS CHANGE *******.

Also, real subtle mention of your occupation. Way to try to validate yourself through a forum about a videogame.

Chill out. I wasn't trying to do anything of the sort, just state that it's not 100% that L-cancelling is gone IN MY OPINION, and give some support to those who want L-cancelling in such as yourself by saying "hey, it might not be gone."

I think you're taking this WAY too seriously now.

 

[DRaGZ]

HOLY CHRIST! No ****. This has been said a ****ing million times. We won't know how the game plays until it is out, but it is safe to ****ing assume the demos people have playing would be a good god**** indicator of the ****ing product! It is called speculation you ***got. Thats what most Brawl topics are about.

Wow. You're going to flame yourself into an early heart attack.

 

[Teeb147]

I don't know why people are using balance as an argument for why ATs are out. There's no freaking balance in Brawl. Have you even looked at any of the demo vids? Ike is a joke. Dk is joke. Bowser is only less of a joke. There's no indication that the developers put a lot of thought into balance. The only thing they did was nerf fox into oblivion, but who cares since Peach is there to fill the void.

Assuming so much from so little is hard for the heart my friend.

 

[Sliq]

Ya, and speculation is fine when you dont complain all the time, I HATE complaining. Especially illogical complaining. Thats why I feel the need to come in here and tell you that the game isnt out so you can chill and hope for the best. aight?

You complaining about my complaining is probably the single most hypocritical thing anyone has said in this topic. Kill yourself.

Chill out. I wasn't trying to do anything of the sort, just state that it's not 100% that L-cancelling is gone IN MY OPINION, and give some support to those who want L-cancelling in such as yourself by saying "hey, it might not be gone."

I think you're taking this WAY too seriously now.

I think you are taking me WAY too seriously.

Wow. You're going to flame yourself into an early heart attack.

No, you guys are going to stupid and lazy me into a heart attack.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I don't know why people are using balance as an argument for why ATs are out. There's no freaking balance in Brawl. Have you even looked at any of the demo vids? Ike is a joke. Dk is joke. Bowser is only less of a joke. There's no indication that the developers put a lot of thought into balance. The only thing they did was nerf fox into oblivion, but who cares since Peach is there to fill the void.

Yes, because we can determine who is good from... 4 days of playing a demo?

Melee's advanced game didn't spring up overnight, it took the efforts of many smashers pouring their time and effort into the game to find out ways to better themselves.

And you think to make tier assumptions when all we've seen are three demos which were all different to boot? That's just stupid, my friend.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Wow. You're going to flame yourself into an early heart attack.

Either that or pop a boob. Anyhow,my only question is what will the advanced players find? What will it be called? Yeah,I know I gotta wait until 3/9+ beyond but still,I find it cool when I see some of them use that stuff to the fullest potenial.

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

If they reduce all of the lag from aerials to the equivalent of an l-cancelled one, then everything would be fine, but they didn't. People need to stop pretending like the lag reduction is huge, because it isn't.

Lag is one of the key factors that makes many characters unplayable.

you also make a good point. With so many characters in the game now, I rather they be all well balanced, rather than not thoroughly tested and have some characters be way better just because an advanced technique happens to make him top tier (Fox anyone?)

This statement is riddled with ignorance. First off, it isn't a single technique that makes characters like Fox or Sheik the top of the tier. It's average and above average moves, combined with low lag, high speed, reliable finishers, and survivability. It's every factor of their character, with few weaknesses, that grant them this status.

Second, A game with a very wide cast of characters is extremely hard to balance. Their is too much attempted individuality to promise us balance in a game like this. The only thing it might do is create an obscure counter character to a top tier character, but other than that, the counter character would have no viability.

 

[Teeb147]

So the game will be fun for more than one specific group. For example, when I started playing, I thought the Shine (as in it's actual definition, used as an attack) was absolutely useless. Ness was my main, and I dominated my friends because of his DJC and fair spam. Then I started getting more advanced strategies. My main eventually switched to Falco. I learned more advanced techs, (SHB, Shine cancels, wavedashing, SHFFLing, etc.) and began playing with them as I wanted.

Now, had I not learned these techniques, I would still be playing the game and having fun with my much less technical and complicated game. But since I wanted to advance, and wanted to make the game more complicated, I chose to begin using these techniques. Someone who doesn't want to use them can still have fun playing without being as technical

Sakurai, intentional or no, made an almost perfect fighter in Melee. It's appeal went well beyond it's target audience, and it's one of Nintendo's best selling games because of this.

Removing L cancelling, and by extension, Melee's advanced game, he breaks this wide appeal strategy of Melee, and makes shield grabs better.

On top of this, projectiles are less effective, so you have no choice but to approach.

You put too much power in your "AT". Depth isnt inclusive to advanced thechniques, I can beat most people I know who use wavedashing without using it. It's all about mind games and basic skills.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

L-Cancel may still be in, just hold tight

I will hold on to the hope/assumption that L-Cancel is still in but hasn't been figured out yet. The demo the japanese have doesn't exactly lend itsself well to hours apon hours (nor months of playtime) of experimenting to figure out techniques. I'm not exactly sure how long it took the community to figure out L-Canceling was in Melee but I am sure no one knew it was there from the start.

 

[Sliq]

You put too much power in your "AT". Depth isnt inclusive to advanced thechniques, I can beat most people I know who use wavedashing without using it. It's all about mind games and basic skills.

Go to a tournament and play someone who isn't a noob.

It's mind boggling how noobs play some guy that did AT's, which makes him automatically competent at them, and thinks, man these competitives are stupid. This **** isn't necessary.

I will hold on to the hope/assumption that L-Cancel is still in but hasn't been figured out yet. The demo the japanese have doesn't exactly lend itsself well to hours apon hours (nor months of playtime) of experimenting to figure out techniques. I'm not exactly sure how long it took the community to figure out L-Canceling was in Melee but I am sure no one knew it was there from the start.

I knew about l-canceling when I played Smash 64 (although the only move I canceled was Link's dair).

I am intrigued about the notion that it is there in another means which hasn't been discovered yet.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

You put too much power in your "AT". Depth isnt inclusive to advanced thechniques, I can beat most people I know who use wavedashing without using it. It's all about mind games and basic skills.

Not really. Do you think Fox would be top tier without wavedashing, L canceling, or shine canceling? I don't think of it as putting too much emphasis on my ATs, as putting more emphasis on what I can get KOs with. Spamming Usmashes doesn't work, laser spamming does. Smashes don't combo, SHFFLed aerials do.

It's just common sense.

Some people just suck at ATs. Mind games won't mean jack if you can't defend or attack quick enough

 

[slikvik]

You put too much power in your "AT". Depth isnt inclusive to advanced thechniques, I can beat most people I know who use wavedashing without using it. It's all about mind games and basic skills.

how many people have to tell you that you're ignorant about competitive level play before you realize it and stop pretending you know what you are talking about

 

[Sliq]

how many people have to tell you that you're ignorant about competitive level play before you realize it and stop pretending you know what you are talking about

Trick question, because he will always be a shithead.

 

[Blatherskite]

Yes, because we can determine who is good from... 4 days of playing a demo?

Melee's advanced game didn't spring up overnight, it took the efforts of many smashers pouring their time and effort into the game to find out ways to better themselves.

And you think to make tier assumptions when all we've seen are three demos which were all different to boot? That's just stupid, my friend.

I'd say that what we've seen is more than enough to make some educated guesses about balance in Brawl, and considering that they removed all of the advanced techniques, there's nothing to complicate the determination of who is good and who is not. Of course, you could be one of those hopeful people who cling to the idea that maybe there are some magical ATs for us to discover that will put Brawl on the same level as Melee. Yet all we've seen is the active removal of techniques that make Smash anything other than its simplest conception.

Lag is one of the key factors that makes many characters unplayable.

You just plain misunderstood what I was saying.

 

[Teeb147]

No, I think you just dont understand what we're trying to say.

Well nevermind that for now then.


In general, my points are the following:

-L-Canceling is Overrated (don't try debating, I already know your opinion)
-Reducing lag in general would be the best option (though they might not reduce it enough, I'll be satisfied if they can reduce it a bit more than what was determined in the fist demo)
-We haven't had enough play time to start worrying about its depth, you haven't even seen the final version. It'll take a while to really see how deep it is.
-Speculation is fine, but it gets annoying when you sound like you're 100% sure that it'll suck. Ruins it for the rest of us who usually look on the bright side.
-Have a little faith in the developpers I'll let you ***** all you want when we've made sure that the depth is lacking... (maybe after at least over 40+ hours of playing?)


Basically...

 

[Zek]

Should I just copy and paste the part wher I said they don;t need to balance with AT's in mind because their core audience DOESN'T USE THEM!? I can if you want.

Go ahead, and I'll just copy and paste my post again and maybe eventually you'll read it.

Let me break it down for you. It's basically impossible for the game to be balanced both with ATs and without ATs. Given the choice, the devs will balance it without ATs because their core audience comes first. This means that competitive players, with all their ATs, are now playing a game(like Melee) that isn't balanced because the devs had to prioritize casual play.

With me so far? Now, if you remove or simplify a lot of those ATs suddenly the play styles aren't so different(relatively speaking). The basic capabilities of the character no longer changes as much between casual and competitive. This way, the devs can balance the game aimed at high-level play without sacrificing very much of the game's casual balance. The end result is a game that's much better balanced for competitive players.

 

[Silhouette]

I will hold on to the hope/assumption that L-Cancel is still in but hasn't been figured out yet. The demo the japanese have doesn't exactly lend itsself well to hours apon hours (nor months of playtime) of experimenting to figure out techniques. I'm not exactly sure how long it took the community to figure out L-Canceling was in Melee but I am sure no one knew it was there from the start.

L-canceling cancels all lag in SSB,its been in both smash games so far so im sure it will be in brawl in some form.

 

[Zek]

I don't know why people are using balance as an argument for why ATs are out. There's no freaking balance in Brawl. Have you even looked at any of the demo vids? Ike is a joke. Dk is joke. Bowser is only less of a joke. There's no indication that the developers put a lot of thought into balance. The only thing they did was nerf fox into oblivion, but who cares since Peach is there to fill the void.

Okay, first of all, this is all from a demo of a game that was still 3 months away from being finished. Serious balancing is something that would have happened towards the end of development. So they could easily have fixed any balance problems from back then by now.

More importantly, this is from a small handful of decent players playing for a very short period of time. With all the changes from Melee to Brawl there is absolutely no way they could have any idea how the long-term balance of the game is going to work out. Compare that to the devs that have been working on this game every day for years and it would be ridiculous for anyone at E4All to claim to know more than the devs about balance, let alone someone like you who has done nothing but read their feedback and watch videos. You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Teeb147]

how many people have to tell you that you're ignorant about competitive level play before you realize it and stop pretending you know what you are talking about

Obviously you think I don't just because I'm against L-Canceling.
Though there aren't too many pros around here, I think I've got the competitive scene pretty well figured out. I'm just unable to convince you guys from your convinctions, much like trying to convince a christian that there's no god.
L-canceling is definitly needed in melee to be able to compete against others who use it. Just because that statement is true doesn't mean there'd be so much less depth without it. What I mean is that it's a minor figure in "depth"

 

[Teeb147]

Double post

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I'd say that what we've seen is more than enough to make some educated guesses about balance in Brawl, and considering that they removed all of the advanced techniques, there's nothing to complicate the determination of who is good and who is not. Of course, you could be one of those hopeful people who cling to the idea that maybe there are some magical ATs for us to discover that will put Brawl on the same level as Melee. Yet all we've seen is the active removal of techniques that make Smash anything other than its simplest conception.

Lag is one of the key factors that makes many characters unplayable.

You just plain misunderstood what I was saying.

I would have to disagree with you on that part. We have by no means seen enough. The new L-cancel was in 2 out of 3 demos, and now it has been removed from the latest one. Odd, but by no means a deconfirmation.

Not to mention we've still got walljumping, DI, wavelanding, teching, and many other technical aspects. Not on par with Melee as of yet, but still can't be simplified as "no advanced techs, end of story".

I think there will be more ATs that we have yet to discover. Not as many as Melee, but Melee had more glitches than any game I've ever played, so comparing Melee to any other game in number of advanced techs is pretty unfair.

Lag does not make characters unplayable unless one character's lag is much more than another's lag. Ike, I will admit, looks terrible in 1v1. Apparently he dominates in FFAs though. DK doesn't look all that bad. Pretty average.

All in all, it's pretty much a "wait and see" situation, which I hate with a passion.

 

[Sliq]

Go ahead, and I'll just copy and paste my post again and maybe eventually you'll read it.

Let me break it down for you. It's basically impossible for the game to be balanced both with ATs and without ATs. Given the choice, the devs will balance it without ATs because their core audience comes first. This means that competitive players, with all their ATs, are now playing a game(like Melee) that isn't balanced because the devs had to prioritize casual play.

With me so far? Now, if you remove or simplify a lot of those ATs suddenly the play styles aren't so different(relatively speaking). The basic capabilities of the character no longer changes as much between casual and competitive. This way, the devs can balance the game aimed at high-level play without sacrificing very much of the game's casual balance. The end result is a game that's much better balanced for competitive players.

The thing is, they should balance it for the casuals WITH AT's. The competitives will play the unbalanced version. My point from the beginning.

I don't see character balance as a huge issue for them for the nubs conisdering: ****ing crazy stages with kooky gimmicks and items.

Balance is then pointless.

Okay, first of all, this is all from a demo of a game that was still 3 months away from being finished. Serious balancing is something that would have happened towards the end of development. So they could easily have fixed any balance problems from back then by now.

More importantly, this is from a small handful of decent players playing for a very short period of time. With all the changes from Melee to Brawl there is absolutely no way they could have any idea how the long-term balance of the game is going to work out. Compare that to the devs that have been working on this game every day for years and it would be ridiculous for anyone at E4All to claim to know more than the devs about balance, let alone someone like you who has done nothing but read their feedback and watch videos. You have no idea what you're talking about.

We know more about what we are talking about than you. I know this because we know way more than you do about Melee. We know as much as we do from those with this knowledge who played it firsthand. They knew what to look for, what is and is not significant, and what is and is not broken.

Obviously you think I don't just because I'm against L-Canceling.
Though there aren't too many pros around here, I think I've got the competitive scene pretty well figured out. I'm just unable to convince you guys from your convinctions, much like trying to convince a christian that there's no god.
L-canceling is definitly needed in melee to be able to compete against others who use it. Just because that statement is true doesn't mean there'd be so much less depth without it. What I mean is that it's a minor figure in "depth"

I don't know if you are against the notion of hitting L at the right time to cancel and aerials lag or the reduction of the lag itself.

Furthermore, Melee would be vastly different on a competitive level, and it would be much much worse.

The fact that you have to "speculate" about competitives without any first hand experience leads me to believe you are a ****head.

If there was no l-canceling in Melee, no one would do any aerials because of shield grabbing, therefore completely changing the metagame. Furthermore, slower characters with laggy aerials would be unusable, while faster characters with little lag would **** everything, polarizing the tiers even more.

You're vast lack of knowledge is staggering.

 

[Teeb147]

The thing is, they should balance it for the casuals WITH AT's. The competitives will play the unbalanced version. My point from the beginning.

I don't see character balance as a huge issue for them for the nubs conisdering: ****ing crazy stages with kooky gimmicks and items.

Balance is then pointless.

You're missing a crowd there. Im a competitive player that wants balance, and Im sure theres lot more like me then there are like you. And we get totally left behind in your scenario.

In other words, I want equal grounds between depth and balance. I dont like tiers, but I also want depth, so I believe in a middle ground.


If they at least have generally less lag, it would remove the AT, BUT allow it to have depth since you could now combo while landing... maybe not as much as in melee tho.

 

[Sliq]

You're missing a crowd there. Im a competitive player that wants balance, and Im sure theres lot more like me then there are like you. And we get totally left behind in your scenario.

In other words, I want equal grounds between depth and balance. I dont like tiers, but I also want depth, so I believe in a middle ground.

What you don't seem to get it that no one wants to play a really balanced game if it is incredibly boring to one tactic ruling all others.

Brawl would be super balanced if there were only one character, but it would also be really ****ing boring.

 

[Silhouette]

remember theyre not trying to make a better balanced version of melee, brawls going to be a new game with new techniques.

 

[Teeb147]

I don't know if you are against the notion of hitting L at the right time to cancel and aerials lag or the reduction of the lag itself.

Furthermore, Melee would be vastly different on a competitive level, and it would be much much worse.

The fact that you have to "speculate" about competitives without any first hand experience leads me to believe you are a ****head.

If there was no l-canceling in Melee, no one would do any aerials because of shield grabbing, therefore completely changing the metagame. Furthermore, slower characters with laggy aerials would be unusable, while faster characters with little lag would **** everything, polarizing the tiers even more.

You're vast lack of knowledge is staggering.

There's not one single thing I dont have knowledge in what you said. What I lack is the means to make you understand.

I dont speculate about competitives, what you sayin?

You had it for a while there; it IS that Im against the button pressing for lag-reducing..Im not against Reducing lag! Im just against it being an advance technique! dont you get it? if you just reduce lag, it's no longer an advanced technique, yet lag is reduced! therefore, no need to the AT, makes sense? it's not so hard to understand.

Melee is alright, L-canceling makes it better, but the fact that it has to be an advanced thechnique instead of being part of .. the core gameplay, is what bothers me.

 

[Silhouette]

Brawl would be super balanced if there were only one character, but it would also be really ****ing boring.

that point is good, too good...

 

[Teeb147]

What you don't seem to get it that no one wants to play a really balanced game if it is incredibly boring to one tactic ruling all others.

Brawl would be super balanced if there were only one character, but it would also be really ****ing boring.

You dont understand at all what we're saying when we talk about balance.

What tactic?

fox only final destination no items. Balance yes, boring, yes.
Many characters balanced, not boring.

Im having trouble explaining it to ya.

 

[Silhouette]

There's not one single thing I dont have knowledge in what you said. What I lack is the means to make you understand.

I dont speculate about competitives, what you sayin?

You had it for a while there; it IS that Im against the button pressing for lag-reducing..Im not against Reducing lag! Im just against it being an advance technique! dont you get it? if you just reduce lag, it's no longer an advanced technique, yet lag is reduced! therefore, no need to the AT, makes sense? it's not so hard to understand.

Melee is alright, L-canceling makes it better, but the fact that it has to be an advanced thechnique is what bothers me.

if l-canceling wernt an AT in the first place then what would be the point of lag?

 

[Sliq]

There's not one single thing I dont have knowledge in what you said. What I lack is the means to make you understand.

I dont speculate about competitives, what you sayin?

You had it for a while there; it IS that Im against the button pressing for lag-reducing..Im not against Reducing lag! Im just against it being an advance technique! dont you get it? if you just reduce lag, it's no longer an advanced technique, yet lag is reduced! therefore, no need to the AT, makes sense? it's not so hard to understand.

Melee is alright, L-canceling makes it better, but the fact that it has to be an advanced thechnique is what bothers me.

Quit dancing around with your ****ing word play. I already said that I would be fine if all aerials had l-cancel lag automatically. I said that about a page or 2 ago. But that is currently not the ****ing case there sport. Brawl's aerials are too laggy and will get shield grabbed into oblivion.

You dont understand at all what we're saying when we talk about balance.

What tactic?

fox only final destination no items. Balance yes, boring, yes.
Many characters balanced, not boring.

Im having trouble explaining it to ya.

My point was to illustrate redundancy is boring, and without l-canceling all that would happen would be shield grabbing spam, and it would get old really ****ing fast.

 

[Teeb147]

if l-canceling wernt an AT in the first place then what would be the point of lag?

?? there still lag after l-cancel, half of it. Lag is there so that you cant constantly attack. the opponent needs the possibility of counter attacking.

 

[slikvik]

What tactic?

shield grabbing...a tactic that is abused at low level play when people dont l-cancel

 

[Shack]

Y do so many ppl complain when things liek this happen? THey give characters landing lag for a reason, not just to be canclled by pressing a button. Deal with it

 

[xylem]

You put too much power in your "AT". Depth isnt inclusive to advanced thechniques, I can beat most people I know who use wavedashing without using it. It's all about mind games and basic skills.

O RLY?

Join date: November 2007

GTFO

 

[Teeb147]

Quit dancing around with your ****ing word play. I already said that I would be fine if all aerials had l-cancel lag. I said that about a page or 2 ago. But that is currently not the ****ing case there sport.




My point was to illustrate redundancy is boring, and without l-canceling all that would happen would be shield grabbing spam, and it would get old really ****ing fast.

I see what you mean now. That would be boring. I think theyve taken that into account, but maybe not, and if not, then it'll be boring.

 

[Sliq]

Y do so many ppl complain when things liek this happen? THey give characters landing lag for a reason, not just to be canclled by pressing a button. Deal with it

Kill yourself.

?? there still lag after l-cancel, half of it. Lag is there so that you cant constantly attack. the opponent needs the possibility of counter attacking.

Yes, no lag would be silly. But full lag is equally silly. You need a balance so that shield grabs apply to mistimed aerials (i.e. hitting the top of the shield) and laggy ground moves. Not EVERY move.

I see what you mean now. That would be boring. I think theyve taken that into account, but maybe not, and if not, then it'll be boring.

Currently, hitstun, as well as shield stun is less, meaning shield grabbing easier to do.

The only thing they might've done to nerf shield grabbing is removing chain grabbing (speculation due to floatier physics and more DI), and not having ******** strong throws that kill (Peach f throw in Melee, Mewtwo up throw, Bowser claw back throw etc.).