L-cancelling gone?

[2.72]

yes, the new l cancel was removed.

i didn't post anything because i didn't think you people would necessarily accept the evidence

a friend of mine (sillyfox) is in the same crew with kei, a japanese smasher. (skypal is a crew name)

he went to the whobby and one of his matches tried to l cancel the entire match using link, and that was all he did, trying to use the method we found at e for all even.

it was removed, there is no l cancel in brawl
i've known for some time, i posted in the back room about it but not here haha

Thanks, Gimpy. Do you think that the decreased land lag from aerials will be enough to keep shield grabbing from becoming dominant?

I'm not terribly concerned unless this reaches a point where the game is odds are significantly skewed towards the defender, such as on Venom. We all know how degenerate and campy that can be. That really would be bad for competitive smash, and indeed all smash.

 

[xeonoex]

Wow people need to get their glitches right. L-cancelling is not a glitch since the 64 game.

And it's weird because Sakurai once posted something along the lines of "at it's core, Brawl is a deeply competitive fighter", yet the Famitsu review stated "As for the fights, with the strong unpredictable factor that comes with final smashes, more than ever we can be excited about matches not being related to skill." and they take it as a good thing, if that review translation is correct.

 

[Blatherskite]

Who cares if aerials have reduced lag? Anyone can see from the videos that it's no where near the speed of an l-cancel Melee aerial. This effectively makes every heavy lag attack useless in Brawl. Coupled with an even better shield grab, and this game is going to be nothing but a grab fest. I can already see it now. Every casual nublet out there will be whining from day one about grab whores, because in order to play smart, everyone is going to have to forgo ground based attacks and just shield grab anyone who tries to attack them. Shield grabbing is going to be the snaking of Brawl.

The only hope this game has at a competitive level is the spacing game. There is simply no good approach for attacking a character on the ground other than spacing an aerial so well that they can't grab you. This means one thing, character's who have little range on their aerials will be gimped, with the exception of Peach if she still has her float cancel.

Here's to Peach being God tier.

 

[Teeb147]

The thing you have to remember is that theyre trying to make more arial combat ... l-cancel was for fround attacks when landing, thus itll make you try to make less landing attacks, and try more to attack from the air.

 

[Teeb147]

double post!

 

[Blatherskite]

I won't be attacking from the air. I'll just close in while my opponent jumps all around and eventually must come back down. And I'll be waiting on the ground with my shield up just to taunt them, because they'll know that there is no way for them to avoid my shield grab. You see, it all comes back to what 2.72 said. This game is going to degenerate into favoring the defender, in which case, no one is going to be attacking without a very well spaced aerial, and everyone will liberally use shield grabbing. Hell, we'll have to turn items on just for the sake of avoiding predictability.

 

[MookieRah]

l-cancel was for ground attacks when landing, thus itll make you try to make less landing attacks, and try more to attack from the air.

That's all good and well, but what is your motivation to go into the air? From the way things look, it's best to stay on the ground and harass shields with jabs and ground attacks *poking* at your opponent into doing something. The only time you'd be wise to go to aerial combat is if it is to intercept your opponent. Why is this? Cause if you go into the air for an aerial and your opponent doesn't, if you attack you will be shield grabbed. So yeah... super defensive campy play sounds like it will be the dominant strategy based on all the info I've heard.

Edit: Dangz, seems like someone hit my point before I did. I'm glad to see some people might have actually read my thread about the game favoring defensive play.

 

[boxelder]

Xylem, laggy ariels won't be useless, they'll be used as finishhers as they are intended. Link's D-air was never meant to be part of a combo, for example. L-canceling broke ballance. You have no idea how the grab game works, you have no idea what the lag of high priority n-airs and f-airs, you don't know how the seilding works, stop assuming the worst because you think you know better than the people who invented the game..

 

[Sliq]

Xylem, laggy ariels won't be useless, they'll be used as finishhers as they are intended. Link's D-air was never meant to be part of a combo, for example. L-canceling broke ballance. You have no idea how the grab game works, you have no idea what the lag of high priority n-airs and f-airs, you don't know how the seilding works, stop assuming the worst because you think you know better than the people who invented the game..

Kill yourself. Seriously.

 

[Teeb147]

I won't be attacking from the air. I'll just close in while my opponent jumps all around and eventually must come back down. And I'll be waiting on the ground with my shield up just to taunt them, because they'll know that there is no way for them to avoid my shield grab. You see, it all comes back to what 2.72 said. This game is going to degenerate into favoring the defender, in which case, no one is going to be attacking without a very well spaced aerial, and everyone will liberally use shield grabbing. Hell, we'll have to turn items on just for the sake of avoiding predictability.

But, you CAN avoid being grabbed with air dodging.

ANYWAY, I think you guys are thinking about it too much considering you havent even played yet. Please refrain from judging the new mechanics before even playing a decent amount

 

[MookieRah]

L-canceling broke ballance.

LOL. That's BS. This is an excerpt from the brawl central post I made on this topic:

What did L-canceling do for competitive smash then? Well it did A LOT. Before l-canceling shield grabbing was an incredibly broken strategy. Basically any aerial attack that didn't hit would simply be shielded and you were grabbed. Not only that, but there were very minimal combos, because landing an aerial had way too much lag after it. This made Sheik incredibly broke, because she had virtually no lag, and cause of that she was the only character that could do semi-crazy combos and utilize the most out of shield grabbing. Other characters that did well were characters that had their aerials finished before they hit the ground. Zelda comes to mind off the top of my head, and even though Marth didn't go up on the tiers until Ken (which was after l-canceling was discovered) he would have eventually become a powerhouse due to the fact that his fair was really quick and ended before hitting the ground from a short hop.

It also sped the game up. It allowed for amazingly awesome combos that had a nice visual flare to them. It made the game more exciting, and with the speed it allowed for more ways to trick your opponents (mindgames). Characters like Captain Falcon were given the ability to be **** badass, instead of suffering completely from laggy aerials. Link could actually do something after an aerial attack outside of being hit! The low tiers were able to do some tricky stuff with it too. Mewtwo and the other DJC characters got a lot out of it, and gave them more combo opportunities as well as some nifty ways to land aerial attacks while pretty much being on the ground and use that as a launch into more attacks. There were so many good things about l-canceling.

But, you CAN avoid being grabbed with air dodging.

You won't be dodging when you hit the ground I don't think. If that's the case you could just wait till they landed and keep the shield up. It's not that crazy of a concept.

 

[boxelder]

I've just seen this kind of complaining so many times with so many different game series and it almost always ennds up with the new game being better. Glitches get removed and the people who exploited them most whine until they realize that they weren't what made the game fun in the first place after all.

 

[DarkDragoon]

you don't know how the seilding works

I don't know either.
Explain plx.
I wish to know the mystery of your sacred "seilding"!!
-DD

 

[Blatherskite]

Laggy aerials will certainly be finishers, because they'll finish anyone who is stupid enough to use them.

And people have way too much faith in the developers. It's pretty obvious that they don't care about competitive smash, and the success of Melee on the competitive level was nothing more than a fluke of the system; flukes which have actively been removed by the developers.

Let's look on the bright side though. People will actually use charged smashes, since anyone who uses a "finisher" is going to be a sitting duck for 3 seconds.

 

[MookieRah]

I've just seen this kind of complaining so many times with so many different game series and it almost always ennds up with the new game being better. Glitches get removed and the people who exploited them most whine until they realize that they weren't what made the game fun in the first place after all.

Please then, grace us with a list of games that you've seen this happen to, and please, tell us how much you actually knew about the competitive scene of said game and how involved in the community you were.

Just because new people will play the game, it doesn't make the sequel a better game. It just means that it's still a fun game in it's own right.

 

[Adi]

Well this pretty much screws over anyone who has short range aerials.

 

[Teeb147]

LOL. That's BS. This is an excerpt from the brawl central post

You won't be dodging when you hit the ground I don't think. If that's the case you could just wait till they landed and keep the shield up. It's not that crazy of a concept.

Who says you have to land next to them? you don't think outside the box enough.

Laggy aerials will certainly be finishers, because they'll finish anyone who is stupid enough to use them.

And people have way too much faith in the developers. It's pretty obvious that they don't care about competitive smash, and the success of Melee on the competitive level was nothing more than a fluke of the system; flukes which have actively been removed by the developers.

Don't use the the word "obvious" when you have no clue what the developpers are thinking, and have not even played the game. You assume stuff way too early and are very annoying.

Just because new people will play the game, it doesn't make the sequel a better game. It just means that it's still a fun game in it's own right.

True, but either way, we still dont know if brawl tops melee, stop assuming brawl will be less good.

 

[Zek]

The L-Cancelling at E4All always sounded like a glitch to me. Fastfalling before doing an aerial removes 100% of the lag? That doesn't make any sense. I imagine it was a bug that they have since fixed. It looks like the intent was always to remove that feature entirely and just reduce aerial lag across the board instead. Technical skill is only one part of competitive play guys. The less interesting part, if you ask me. Brawl is just reducing the emphasis on it, though certainly not removing it.

Also, it's incredibly premature to predict the effect that this will have on the game. A LOT HAS CHANGED. Don't just look at one or two changes and think about what they would do to Melee. Brawl is extremely different in many ways. It's one thing to speculate, but this stuff doesn't affect any of us in any way until the game is out and we know for sure anyway, so would it kill you guys to cut the whining?

 

[boxelder]

Look, you're obviously very passionate aboout this and I don't want to get into a great internet debate of pointlessness, but just try to remember that your position is based almost entirely on assumption and speculation and before you freak out and declare the game a shallow , unfun failure you should probably wait and see if people can just shielld grabb every arriel atttack, like yoou think. I haven't seen any of that in the videos.

 

[xylem]

LOL. That's BS. This is an excerpt from the brawl central post I made on this topic:

What did L-canceling do for competitive smash then? Well it did A LOT. Before l-canceling shield grabbing was an incredibly broken strategy. Basically any aerial attack that didn't hit would simply be shielded and you were grabbed. Not only that, but there were very minimal combos, because landing an aerial had way too much lag after it. This made Sheik incredibly broke, because she had virtually no lag, and cause of that she was the only character that could do semi-crazy combos and utilize the most out of shield grabbing. Other characters that did well were characters that had their aerials finished before they hit the ground. Zelda comes to mind off the top of my head, and even though Marth didn't go up on the tiers until Ken (which was after l-canceling was discovered) he would have eventually become a powerhouse due to the fact that his fair was really quick and ended before hitting the ground from a short hop.

It also sped the game up. It allowed for amazingly awesome combos that had a nice visual flare to them. It made the game more exciting, and with the speed it allowed for more ways to trick your opponents (mindgames). Characters like Captain Falcon were given the ability to be **** badass, instead of suffering completely from laggy aerials. Link could actually do something after an aerial attack outside of being hit! The low tiers were able to do some tricky stuff with it too. Mewtwo and the other DJC characters got a lot out of it, and gave them more combo opportunities as well as some nifty ways to land aerial attacks while pretty much being on the ground and use that as a launch into more attacks. There were so many good things about l-canceling.

You won't be dodging when you hit the ground I don't think. If that's the case you could just wait till they landed and keep the shield up. It's not that crazy of a concept.

I haven't been keeping up with the drama as of late (though it amused me to see every noob and their mothers bashing the hell out out of mew2king like 2 months ago) so what's your whole take on the whole brawl thing since you're a pro, in the backrooms, ect. I know some of the pro's just want money for playing a video game, but how many are just saying "**** this crap; it's too boring, imma go play some guilty gear/MvC/3rd strike/keep playing melee until another good smash game comes out"

also thanks for saving me the trouble slig (wtf I didn't even mention aerials, all I said is that brawl's metagame is already dead)

 

[MookieRah]

Who says you have to land next to them? you don't think outside the box enough.

So you'll jump, somehow attack, airdodge, AND land far enough away for your opponent not to be able to retaliate? Do you honestly think you can do all those things. Sounds kinda ridiculous.

Don't use the the word "obvious" when you have no clue what the developpers are thinking, and have not even played the game. You assume stuff way too early and are very annoying.

Is it not much to assume that people will take advantage of laggy aerials?

True, but either way, we still dont know if brawl tops melee, stop assuming brawl will be less good.

I'm simply providing a counter to all the diehard optimists and providing reasons for why I'm not as optimistic as to how things will turn out. Given that the information presented to us is true in the final version, I'm sure that a lot of the points I'm making will be valid concerns AT LEAST in the early meta-game. When defensive options far outweigh offensive options you have yourself a campy game.

but just try to remember that your position is based almost entirely on assumption and speculation and before you freak out and declare the game a shallow , unfun failure you should probably wait and see if people can just shielld grabb every arriel atttack, like yoou think.

Provide me evidence to counter my speculation and I will address it. So far, you just tell me how other games that people have complained about ended up doing OK. That's all fine and whatnot, but the thing is I don't have much evidence pointing to good things about the competitive scene this time around. I'm reserving my full judgement till the game comes out, but it seems like the game will be more shallow than melee. I'm not saying that it is, moreso that it *seems* like it will be. There is a very very big difference between the two.

I haven't seen any of that in the videos.

That's cause 99% of all demo vids are being played by people who don't know what they are doing. The few "good" people to play it were playing it like they did melee cause they have only had a few days to play it in a ****ty atmosphere.

I know some of the pro's just want money for playing a video game

For starters... the pros love this game as much if not more than you do. Please don't act like they are only in it for money. Nobody is. They all love the game, and have taken the game to it's limits. They just happen to make money off of tournaments, so obviously that is an issue to them as well. Try to be somewhat understanding of this.

As far as how the pros are taking it, most of us aren't very optimistic about it, but we are all wanting to play it. We know that just cause things sound bad on paper it doesn't necessarily mean it will be horrible, but things currently aren't looking good. If Brawl ends up not grabbing our attention like Melee did, we all lose out.

It really annoys me when people just tell me "hey you are basing things off of assumptions and speculation" when I'm basing my speculations off all the FACTS we have about the game currently. Then people impose on me that I should wait and be optimistic and that somehow thinking about the game is a bad thing. OF COURSE I'm going to have to wait till the game comes out, but I'm not going to be blindly optimistic about something that looks bad on paper.

 

[Teeb147]

So you'll jump, somehow attack, airdodge, AND land far enough away for your opponent not to be able to retaliate? Do you honestly think you can do all those things. Sounds kinda ridiculous.

Is it not much to assume that people will take advantage of laggy aerials?

I guess it's because you're to used to hoping and landing next to someone. There's a lot more strategies besides that. And from what I've seen there's alot more mobillity in the air now than before, people should be able to attack in the air and move away or short hop afterwards.

I dont know what you mean by laggy aerials.

I cant wait to try out the game and find out different strategies.. dont you? you should focus on trying your best to find different ways to make the game competitive rather than assume based on the little you know as of now... (Yes, little, we so very little about the mechanics when we havent tried it ourselves for a good amount of time)

 

[2.72]

Mookie, I'm also concerned that the game will be very campy, but there are still alternatives.

• Land lag is significantly reduced: We know that land lag has been reduced (as has aerial lag, in fact) from Gimpy's E4A impressions, but I don't know how much. It might be comparable to L canceling, or at least close enough that fast attacks can still be effectively used in combos. Also, the reduced aerial lag might (and this is definitely a stretch) allow you to completely finish the aerial before the short hop lands, even if fast-falled.
• There are faster land attacks: This is purely hypothetical, but if everyone had attacks analogous to Sheik's melee tilts, you could still combo and shield pressure. I would prefer shffling -- it's more fun, in my opinion, and is probably the best thing to happen to melee's metagame -- but the game would not be reduced to a campy grab-fest. I would be sad to see the fact that you can attack and move (by shffling) simultaneously go, but I could still live with it. There is no indication of this, either from Gimpy's E4A impressions or later Japanese demo impressions, so it's unlikely.

I hope that the playtesters are good enough to notice if shield grabbing is broken, and the developers smart enough to listen to them. If so, we don't have too much to worry about.

 

[Adi]

There may indeed be ways to make the game a grand competitive game, but our scope for methods is very limited. Without L-cancelling aerials really do not have a way of being used in such a way that an offensive metagame can rise. There is no physical way to speed up aerials so unless there's another hidden glitch that allows us to remove the lag from aerials (which I doubt) the metagame is going to suffer greatly.

 

[Teeb147]

Mookie, I'm also concerned that the game will be very campy, but there are still alternatives.

• Land lag is significantly reduced: We know that land lag has been reduced (as has aerial lag, in fact) from Gimpy's E4A impressions, but I don't know how much. It might be comparable to L canceling, or at least close enough that fast attacks can still be effectively used in combos. Also, the reduced aerial lag might (and this is definitely a stretch) allow you to completely finish the aerial before the short hop lands, even if fast-falled.
• There are faster land attacks: This is purely hypothetical, but if everyone had attacks analogous to Sheik's melee tilts, you could still combo and shield pressure. I would prefer shffling -- it's more fun, in my opinion, and is probably the best thing to happen to melee's metagame -- but the game would not be reduced to a campy grab-fest. I would be sad to see the fact that you can attack and move (by shffling) simultaneously go, but I could still live with it. There is no indication of this, either from Gimpy's E4A impressions or later Japanese demo impressions, so it's unlikely.

I hope that the playtesters are good enough to notice if shield grabbing is broken, and the developers smart enough to listen to them. If so, we don't have too much to worry about.

Nice reasoning

It's not like shffling wont be possible, it just wont be the dominant way of attacking, which is good; it'll make attacking strategies more variant.

 

[Teeb147]

There may indeed be ways to make the game a grand competitive game, but our scope for methods is very limited. Without L-cancelling aerials really do not have a way of being used in such a way that an offensive metagame can rise. There is no physical way to speed up aerials so unless there's another hidden glitch that allows us to remove the lag from aerials (which I doubt) the metagame is going to suffer greatly.

aerials might be sped up enough already.

 

[MookieRah]

I guess it's because you're to used to hoping and landing next to someone. There's a lot more strategies besides that. And from what I've seen there's alot more mobillity in the air now than before, people should be able to attack in the air and move away or short hop afterwards.

I don't think you are even aware of the situation. This is what we were saying:
Person A is sticking to the ground. Going into the air seems like a bad idea to him. He's relying on a solid ground game based on poking at his opponent with jabs and quick ground moves and countering any air to ground assaults with shield grabs.

Person B decides to jump into the air. Here is where things get screwy. You claim that you will be able to attack a grounded opponent, THEN airdodge, AND somehow manage to land in a place where you can't get shield grabbed. For starters, if you did an aerial attack on a grounded person unless it is spaced perfectly it is likely that they will be able to grab you before you could airdodge at all (that is if you technically could air dodge before hitting the ground).

I'm thinking if Person B took to the air he'd have a well placed aerial that is out of range of grabs, and is basically just a poke at Person A's defenses. Person B couldn't get away unscathed unless he is outside of Person A's grab range. The only other option to avoid getting grabbed would be to land behind Person A. Considering how slow people move in the air and how floaty they are, you won't be able to get away with magically landing behind someone to avoid a shield grab. They simply aren't fast enough in the air. Not to mention they would just be up tilt bait. Even if you airdodge the up tilt, they will be able to catch you later on. The new airdodge isn't broke by any means, it's like a melee ground dodge in the air.

I cant wait to try out the game and find out different strategies.. dont you?

I can't wait so much that i'm using the information we have about the game to develop preemptive strategies to try out when I get the game! It just so happens that I think that these strategies aren't as exciting as Melee.

you should focus on trying your best to find different ways to make the game competitive rather than assume based on the little you know as of now...

What?? SO I should try to find the way to make the game competitive than assume anything? Wouldn't anything I try to find to make the game be competitive be an assumption anyways? Also, while we don't have all the information about the game, we do know a lot of stuff that points towards a more defensive game. As I learn new information, I rethink my opinion on things, and as it seems I just keep getting bad news.

If I am not to base my opinion on fact, what am I left with?

EDIT

from Gimpy's E4A impressions, but I don't know how much. It might be comparable to L canceling

He said it was faster than a hard landing in melee, but not as fast as an l-cancel. Pretty much it was about half-way in between the two, and that is still just too much lag.

Ironically, everything I've heard so far lends me to believe the game will be much more ground based XD.

 

[Anth0ny]

yes, the new l cancel was removed.

i didn't post anything because i didn't think you people would necessarily accept the evidence

a friend of mine (sillyfox) is in the same crew with kei, a japanese smasher. (skypal is a crew name)

he went to the whobby and one of his matches tried to l cancel the entire match using link, and that was all he did, trying to use the method we found at e for all even.

it was removed, there is no l cancel in brawl
i've known for some time, i posted in the back room about it but not here haha

Dang, maybe L canceling could still be found in Brawl through other means. However, it's no big loss people. We're just going to have to live with it.

 

[TiersAreReal]

With the loss of the directional air dodge, the 'attack, air dodge, and punish' thing suggested above is nearly impossible anyway.

 

[Teeb147]

I don't think you are even aware of the situation. This is what we were saying:
Person A is sticking to the ground. Going into the air seems like a bad idea to him. He's relying on a solid ground game based on poking at his opponent with jabs and quick ground moves and countering any air to ground assaults with shield grabs.

Person B decides to jump into the air. Here is where things get screwy. You claim that you will be able to attack a grounded opponent, THEN airdodge, AND somehow manage to land in a place where you can't get shield grabbed. For starters, if you did an aerial attack on a grounded person unless it is spaced perfectly it is likely that they will be able to grab you before you could airdodge at all (that is if you technically could air dodge before hitting the ground).

I'm thinking if Person B took to the air he'd have a well placed aerial that is out of range of grabs, and is basically just a poke at Person A's defenses. Person B couldn't get away unscathed unless he is outside of Person A's grab range. The only other option to avoid getting grabbed would be to land behind Person A. Considering how slow people move in the air and how floaty they are, you won't be able to get away with magically landing behind someone to avoid a shield grab. They simply aren't fast enough in the air. Not to mention they would just be up tilt bait. Even if you airdodge the up tilt, they will be able to catch you later on. The new airdodge isn't broke by any means, it's like a melee ground dodge in the air.
I can't wait so much that i'm using the information we have about the game to develop preemptive strategies to try out when I get the game! It just so happens that I think that these strategies aren't as exciting as Melee.

you should focus on trying your best to find different ways to make the game competitive rather than assume based on the little you know as of now...[/quote}
What?? SO I should try to find the way to make the game competitive than assume anything? Wouldn't anything I try to find to make the game be competitive be an assumption anyways? Also, while we don't have all the information about the game, we do know a lot of stuff that points towards a more defensive game. As I learn new information, I rethink my opinion on things, and as it seems I just keep getting bad news.

If I am not to base my opinion on fact, what am I left with?

EDIT

He said it was faster than a hard landing in melee, but not as fast as an l-cancel. Pretty much it was about half-way in between the two, and that is still just too much lag.

Hmm, yeh I misphrased that.

Umm, the way Im picturing it I still think about attacking while passing through them or being high enough to come back, but I may not be picturing it correctly. Some of what you say makes sense, but I still like to think that they removed enough lag to make it useful, but not critical to the gamplay. In other words, more variant strategies.. But Im not entirely sure.

I definitly see Brawl as being more interesting competitively than melee because I found melee focused too much on the making attacks that L-Cancel, so to me it's a good refreshing start and I hope they balanced it the way I picture it. But you might also be right, We'll see once we get our hands on it I suppose.

 

[Adi]

Even if you were Fox spamming Shffl Nairs -> Shine over and over again there too many ways to punish you to count. There is no way to characterize this change as a "good" thing. It may make the focus more on defensive play but the beauty of melee was the balance between offense and defense that it had.

 

[Zek]

Even if you were Fox spamming Shffl Nairs -> Shine over and over again there too many ways to punish you to count. There is no way to characterize this change as a "good" thing. It may make the focus more on defensive play but the beauty of melee was the balance between offense and defense that it had.

Have you played any of the demos?

 

[MookieRah]

Umm, the way Im picturing it I still think about attacking while passing through them or being high enough to come back

The thing is, Falco's already use that kind of strategy in melee, and the thing is they can only get away with it because: A: he falls really fast, B: he l-cancels, and C: he can shine afterwards. Trying to do that while falling slow, not moving fast in the air horizontally, and without l-cancelling AND giving the fact there is less shield stun... Yeah, you can see how that won't work all that well.

Also, I can almost guarantee that any strategy you try to come up with has been done before, and probably in Melee. What I'm doing is applying what I know about the changes in Brawl to how things were in Melee and playing things out in my head. Since I know a lot of strategies and have a really good understanding of competitive play, I can see how things would end up being more defensive.

 

[Teeb147]

Even if you were Fox spamming Shffl Nairs -> Shine over and over again there too many ways to punish you to count. There is no way to characterize this change as a "good" thing. It may make the focus more on defensive play but the beauty of melee was the balance between offense and defense that it had.

Why do you think there's no offensive/defensive balance in Brawl? Maybe more mindgames... but I wouldnt say that it's necessarily more defensive.

 

[Teeb147]

The thing is, Falco's already use that kind of strategy in melee, and the thing is they can only get away with it because: A: he falls really fast, B: he l-cancels, and C: he can shine afterwards. Trying to do that while falling slow, not moving fast in the air horizontally, and without l-cancelling AND giving the fact there is less shield stun... Yeah, you can see how that won't work all that well.

Of course, doing something like that without l-canceling will be even more situational than before.. which I think is good.

 

[Blatherskite]

Which is why this game is going to be more defensive based. If Falco can't even approach well, then who can?

 

[MookieRah]

Of course, doing something like that without l-canceling will be even more situational than before.. which I think is good.

Or it could be not so great. Also, the Falco thing I mentioned, it's somewhat situational as is. Nothing is sure fire, and there are ways around that Falco strat too. The most important thing for Falco is that is a safer approach in some instances.

@Blather
Haha, good trick. I see what you did there.

 

[Adi]

Why do you think there's no offensive/defensive balance in Brawl? Maybe more mindgames... but I wouldnt say that it's necessarily more defensive.

I'm making an assumption simply because there's less offensive capabilities. Fast aerials kept the metagame of smash interesting and allowed players who wanted to take the offense to have that option. As Mookie said before L-cancelling, shield grabbing was absurdly overpowered. True, in brawl, there is less lag time for aerials however there is also less hitstun so it may compensate in such a way that defensive manuevers are the best course of action in most situations. My fear is that it turns into a game of poke and run, and although this is not necessarily a bad thing I would find it rather boring and it also takes away some of the unique aspects that smash has.

 

[MookieRah]

Adj's post goes back to what I was saying before, without l-canceling the air to ground approach is no longer viable. Because of this there will be a new focus on the ground game of smash, which will be all about jabbing and tilting. Aerials will mostly come into play after you launch your opponent in one way or another, and then your opponent has a lot of options to get out of any aerial combos given the new system. That means the cycle will reset and you'll go back to a new "skirmish" so to speak.

I can also see positioning being way more important too. Where you are will be WAY more important this time around. Defensive positions will give you a huge advantage. This would probably lead to very campy play.

Yeah... lots of potentially bad things I think overall. I HOPE TO GOD, that this ISN'T the case, but I can't help but feel this is more than likely what is going to happen.

 

[Teeb147]

Adj's post goes back to what I was saying before, without l-canceling the air to ground approach is no longer viable. Because of this there will be a new focus on the ground game of smash, which will be all about jabbing and tilting. Aerials will mostly come into play after you launch your opponent in one way or another, and then your opponent has a lot of options to get out of any aerial combos given the new system. That means the cycle will reset and you'll go back to a new "skirmish" so to speak.

I can also see positioning being way more important too. Where you are will be WAY more important this time around. Defensive positions will give you a huge advantage. This would probably lead to very campy play.

Yeah... lots of potentially bad things I think overall. I HOPE TO GOD, that this ISN'T the case, but I can't help but feel this is more than likely what is going to happen.

I think there will be significant aerial battles too though. The game will consist alot of aerial or ground battle instead of air to ground landing attacks.