L-cancelling gone?

[Teeb147]

The solution? Items. That's right, I said it, items. Mind you, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaated items in Melee, never enabled them, I liked to play competitively, and loved all those wonderful advanced techniques. It pains me to say it, but items in Brawl (something innately random) will be the only way to balance the game. That's not say that some characters won't be campy, but that's all everyone will use. Brawl reduced to single-digit viabloe characters? **** that, I'd take items before that. We're going to need items to make this game offensive - though they're random, imagine the strategies we could make. Mr. Saturn has the ability to molest shields to make approaching with aerials a *little* more viable, a barrel rolling down the hill gives some initial cover so you can follow up with something that isn't a poke, and an assist trophy could give you what you need to edge guard those lame auto sweet-spotting up-b's. We need this to make the game something more than a complete camp-hell, to make the game remotely interesting when it matures.

I made that exact point earlier. Items would be good for the competitive scene, especially smash balls.

 

[FoulPlay]

Is the arguing in this thread ever going to end? :/ I'm surprised MODERATORS are fighting with users in here... it's chaos.

It's true, Brawl will be bad if L Cancel isn't in for us competitive players.
But for you casual players, then it's fine, because 90% of you don't use Adv. Techs and call them cheap.

Just leave it, we'll find out when the game comes out in Japan and a couple of Japanese pros get their hands on it, ok?

 

[GenocideMachine]

The solution? Items. That's right, I said it, items. Mind you, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaated items in Melee, never enabled them, I liked to play competitively, and loved all those wonderful advanced techniques. It pains me to say it, but items in Brawl (something innately random) will be the only way to balance the game. That's not say that some characters won't be campy, but that's all everyone will use. Brawl reduced to single-digit viabloe characters? **** that, I'd take items before that. We're going to need items to make this game offensive - though they're random, imagine the strategies we could make. Mr. Saturn has the ability to molest shields to make approaching with aerials a *little* more viable, a barrel rolling down the hill gives some initial cover so you can follow up with something that isn't a poke, and an assist trophy could give you what you need to edge guard those lame auto sweet-spotting up-b's. We need this to make the game something more than a complete camp-hell, to make the game remotely interesting when it matures.
QUOTE]

I made that exact point earlier. Items would be good for the competitive scene, especially smash balls.

I disagree, I don't see how smash balls will make much of a difference to the problem at hand, they're certainly pretty but our primary issue right now is the lack of a proper aerial approach due to the removal of l-canceling. Many final-smashes are simply auto-KO's and embody the very idea of entropy and chaos, which isn't exactly what I'm trying to accomplish with my idea of items. Granted, I don't particularly care about final smashes being enabled or not - that's up to the community - but my primary focus is simply trying to create a proper approach without a massive amount of randomness to keep it viable for tournament players.

 

[Sliq]

Sliq, you have a severe superiority complex and your only way to crush the clawing feeling of inadequacy is to insult others and tell them to kill themselves because they don't know enough about Brawl or Melee. Seriously, what the **** is wrong with you? I used to be like you, but then I advanced past the narcissistic age of 15 and realized that I'm simply not better than everyone. Take a humanities course, you're obviously incapable of self-analysis and you need others to tell you how much of an needlessly egotistical maniac you are.

I also find it interesting how another member brought up that you resort to ad hominem and you accused them that they resorted to using Wikipedia to find such a phrase. A completely baseless accusation on your part, of course, but, on the other hand, they were completely correct. I'd love to see you in a discussion and debate class, how brutally you'd get wrecked because all you can do to defend your fragile ego is continuously insult other members.

Yeah, you most certainly took the high road. Way to show me how you are superior to me by resorting to my own tactics. Now who's the one on the high horse. Seriously, chill out. This is the internet, not brunch with the Queen of England.

From a competitive standpoint, it's obvious that Brawl is going to be different. No one has ever contested that, however it may even be broken by default if we continue playing as we did Melee. Without L-canceling, aerials will be of little use as a approach, and shield grabs will be disgustingly overpowered. Coupled with the reduced shield stun and the greatly reduced falling speeds of (most?) characters, approaching with an aerial is going to be virtually impossible unless a few things happen:

1. The aerial is long ranged (perhaps captain falcons neutral a) with a somewhat minimal amount of lag
2. The aerial has very little lag (if this is all we have to rely on, enjoy Sheik-like characters devastating the competition until (if ever) an equivalent of L-canceling is found.
3. The aerial can be performed from a short hop without having to hit the ground first with very little lag afterwards in the air, like Marth's fair.

The problem with all of these? Not all characters are going to have them, making their aerials primarily useless unless the opponent is already in the air. As previous posters have pointed out, Brawl will turn into a defensive slow-spaced spacing nightmare, dominated by fast tilts, pokes, the above kind of aerials (which not all characters will have) and camping behavior. Offense will be virtually dead with the exception of a few characters, and we'll be in a game more unbalanced that melee ever could have dreamed being. The game won't be quick paced at all.

Initially, I was quite disappointed by the new (and now likely removed, according to the Japanese demo) l-cancel, as some characters would get little use from it and I adored Melee's L-cancel, but I thought it would certainly be better than nothing. Sadly enough, we need an l-cancel. As stated above, without it we're cursed with almost purely defensive play, unlike Melee's balanced version. Grabs have been tuned down, but that doesn't change all that much, just that we won't get chain-throwed after being shield grabbed. Even that chain-throwing would have been preferable - at least the matches wouldn't take an eternity. The new l-cancel gave us some hope on fast air-based approaches, but now it's not looking good.

What does it all mean? It all depends on how the community wants to take it. Brawl has the ability to be incredibly competitive, but one thing is for sure: If it plays how some are speculating (the competitive scene, the casuals won't even notice the lack of l-canceling) the game flat out won't be fun.

Way to say what I have been saying for the past 3 pages all over again.

The solution? Items. That's right, I said it, items. Mind you, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaated items in Melee, never enabled them, I liked to play competitively, and loved all those wonderful advanced techniques. It pains me to say it, but items in Brawl (something innately random) will be the only way to balance the game. That's not say that some characters won't be campy, but that's all everyone will use. Brawl reduced to single-digit viabloe characters? **** that, I'd take items before that. We're going to need items to make this game offensive - though they're random, imagine the strategies we could make. Mr. Saturn has the ability to molest shields to make approaching with aerials a *little* more viable, a barrel rolling down the hill gives some initial cover so you can follow up with something that isn't a poke, and an assist trophy could give you what you need to edge guard those lame auto sweet-spotting up-b's. We need this to make the game something more than a complete camp-hell, to make the game remotely interesting when it matures.

Luck. End of discussion. Items would *** depth to Melee, if they didn't spawn random items at random points at random times, and oops that capsule exploded. Items discussion has been done to death already. The fact that we have to resort to using luck to balance a game means that the competitive nature of that game is already flawed.

I know every SWFer in his or her right mind (for the most part, anyways) loathes items as much as I do, but we're going to have to try something different to save Brawl from mediocrity and stagnation. I don't like them either, and they do add an element of randomness, but that's not to say that items can take skill, too. The set-ups that items create depend on the skill of the player, and I think that items might add just the right amount of offense that we need.

Thanks for listening, I just don't want another completely sheik dominated tourny scene pre-l-canceling, and in this case we might not even get a form of l-canceling, ever.

SOME items add depth (weapon based items). Pokeballs and the such do not, because that **** is automatic after you have used it. No skill required for Zapdos to molest your oponent (but some luck involved as to which Pokemon comes out).

All most all of your points have already been said by me or others (Slikvik). You basically just summarized everything we've said in order to not post mean things about me.

 

[Soyl]

yeah I could see it from that perspective if I was the player I used to be, who spammed dash attack, backthrow, cape & fair with doc and thought I was hot **** (I thought I was top 100 LOL) cause I could beat everyone I knew. that was years ago and eventually I saw pro's duke it out and, very relevant to the thread, RAN INTO A SHEILD GRABBER. he would play fox and just stand there with his shield up like this unshakable pillar of might, and to make matters worse I didn't know how to tech so I would just get clobbered by downthrow to upsmash. Naturally I bawwwwed pathetic noob tears, but I refused to take such indignation and eventually he learned that sheild grabbing equates to being jabbed and subsequently being downsmashed or thrown off the stage against some one who L cancels. It took me a few months to learn this but after you do the lowest form of combat (sheild grabing) becomes all but useless. but now the lowest form of combat seems to be the predominant form of combat, enjoy having your "zomg superior arial combat " sheild grabbed up the as$.

Argument processed.
Accepted.

Shields can be broken. hit hard enough or use long range attacks.
..lack of variety or depth..
more options - Can grab when opponent is shielding, however cannot do so while jumping... can airdodge through and hit from behind.. can use faster attacks.. however, some characters may not have fast attacks...
insufficient knowledge. Will need to play game before more options can be determined.

 

[The_Corax_King]

This thread is obviously going no where...

Intelligent discussion has died...

I shall go take my questions elsewhere...

 

[Blatherskite]

If you wanted to compensate for the lack of depth by including items, then we'd have to have like 20 stock matches just to compensate for their inate randomness. Why? Because the only way to average out the luck factor is to play more.

 

[Teeb147]

Argument processed.
Accepted.

Shields can be broken. hit hard enough or use long range attacks.
..lack of variety or depth..
more options - Can grab when opponent is shielding, however cannot do so while jumping... can airdodge through and hit from behind.. can use faster attacks.. however, some characters may not have fast attacks...
insufficient data. Will need to play game before more options can be determined.

So... you like processing stuff like a robot?

But, insufficient data is correct. At this point I think most people have had their chance to say what they had about no L-Cancel, and altho it turned into flaming at some points, it's been quite imformative and I'd say the only thing we can do now is discover Brawl's depth once it's out to really see how competitive it'll be compared to melee. Thoug personally Id like to stop comparing to melee, since lots of stuff will be different.

I think that if theres not exploding capsules and such, we'll be able to determine a set of items acceptable for competitive play, at least. And the gameplay we'll discover tricks and depth as we play more.

Nuff said.

 

[Blatherskite]

bah... I hate to quote myself... but there are questions I asked in my last post that were drowned in this ocean of flames...



-Does anyone else remember him talking about improved aerials?
-Do people who have played the demos say that aerials are more effective?
-Could aerials possibly be more effective than shffl if characters have more air time? Thus removing the necessity of l-cancel in advanced gameplay?
-What confirmation do we have of the Japanese demo's removal of l-canceling?

The aerial game has certainly been improved, but that doesn't matter because being on the ground puts you at the advantage. The only way people are going to get to the aerial game is if they are forced into the air by an attack. It's the same way Melee was. You simply don't want to be above your opponent.

It looks like some characters have enough air time in their short hops so that their aerials will cancel before they hit the ground if they don't fast fall. But then you're wide open for a shield grab anyway unless you use an attack with huge range.

Gimpy's friend is our confirmation.

 

[xylem]

items will balance everything

I could care less about items, I routinely drillshine people who think the hammer will save them. items just let characters like fox, falcon, sheik, and marth dominate the competition even further, as guess who's going to get to that heart 9 times out of 10 first?

There will probably be brawl tournaments, but I doubt it's going to catch on very well. The kind of people who swoon over brawl don't tend to be the type to take initiative and set up their own tourneys, and good luck keeping the veteran melee players attention for more than a month (who are the one's who set up most tourneys anyway), also I'm fairly certain it will be laughed out of EVO. what I'm saying is good luck finding someone other than clueless sci-fi cons and stores looking to generate business holding them (like once maybe before they figure out it's mario party with teh fightan' thrown on top, halo's a bigger draw of their demographic anyways).

in short I'm sure melee tournaments are going to be back in style a week after brawl's release and everyone of significance realizes how much the gameplay has devolved. who else thinks that melee's competitive scene will more or less shrug off the release of brawl?

 

[MookieRah]

@Soyl
You aren't a robot, it isn't cute.

Secondly: It takes a **** load to break shields, and the main way shields were broken in melee is because the offense was flawless and almost forced the opponent into shielding or at least made it seem like their offense was perfect (instigating fear is a portion of what makes up mind games) for long enough to break their shield. Although, I suppose now that the poking games could ultimately break someones shields after a long enough skirmish if the opponent is dumb enough not to retreat.

I'll be sad that the only way to get rid of someone's insane positioning is through an aggressively defensive ground assault on their shields till it runs down.

And yes, you could grab someone who is shielding, but if he was playing smart he would just grab you as soon as you came in close enough.

Many people have talked about air dodging through and hitting from the back. It's such an obvious thing that it would be easily predicted and countered.

All in all... you don't realize how this relates a lot to what has already been done before in the world of smash.

@xylem
I think your pessimism is a little bit too much. While I fear for Brawl sucking, I don't instantly assume it will. Everyone else here seems to have some hope for it so we aren't saying that Brawl WILL SUCK, just that Brawl seems like it will suck. There is still some hope, so don't count it out completely just yet.

 

[Teeb147]

If you wanted to compensate for the lack of depth by including items, then we'd have to have like 20 stock matches just to compensate for their inate randomness. Why? Because the only way to average out the luck factor is to play more.

If capsules and such dont explode, I dont see why we cant just find out which items will bring the most balance and only use those. the reason they were banned is for random explosions and such, but now its different.

 

[GenocideMachine]

Sliq, I find it disturbing that you use the term "chill out" to me, while you've (for the last who knows how many pages) I've been telling people to die in fire because they're arguing a moronic viewpoint. You also fail to comprehend why I mentioned items in the first place. It's becoming more and more obvious that Brawl flat-out won't be as competitive as melee; it doesn't have the necessary mechanics to do so and Nintendo doesn't seem particularly interested in nurturing the typical tourny players. What does this mean? We have to change because Nintendo likely isn't going to do so. The competitive aspect of Brawl is now innately flawed, and we might end up having to use items to balance it out. Yes, I know, items are random, and it annoys me too, but those who wish to salvage what's left of Brawl are going to have to adapt - not rot in stagnation like you're choosing to. You seem to be adopting a fatalistic mindset of Brawl, and that's somewhat understandable, but those who wish for something new for the sake of it being new are going to want to play Brawl, even if it's heavily flawed. Hopefully not all of those will have to be casuals, either.

This is all on a theoretical and philosophical level -- we don't absolutely KNOW if Brawl is going to be broken, we're relying on a demo that may or may not be the finished product. Brawl might turn out fine. Probably not, though.

 

[Soyl]

@Soyl
You aren't a robot, it isn't cute.

Secondly: It takes a **** load to break shields, and the main way shields were broken in melee is because the offense was flawless and almost forced the opponent into shielding or at least made it seem like their offense was perfect (instigating fear is a portion of what makes up mind games) for long enough to break their shield. Although, I suppose now that the poking games could ultimately break someones shields after a long enough skirmish if the opponent is dumb enough not to retreat.

I'll be sad that the only way to get rid of someone's insane positioning is through an aggressively defensive ground assault on their shields till it runs down.

And yes, you could grab someone who is shielding, but if he was playing smart he would just grab you as soon as you came in close enough.

Many people have talked about air dodging through and hitting from the back. It's such an obvious thing that it would be easily predicted and countered.

All in all... you don't realize how this relates a lot to what has already been done before in the world of smash.

Wasnt trying to be cute. Felt like it to indoctrine Teeb's assertion of comparing me to a robot.


Your concerns make sense. But I'm surprised by the amount of criticism. Brawl is different. You will have to deal with it or not play it. Crying about it wont help.

 

[xylem]

@Soyl
You aren't a robot, it isn't cute.

Secondly: It takes a **** load to break shields, and the main way shields were broken in melee is because the offense was flawless and almost forced the opponent into shielding or at least made it seem like their offense was perfect (instigating fear is a portion of what makes up mind games) for long enough to break their shield. Although, I suppose now that the poking games could ultimately break someones shields after a long enough skirmish if the opponent is dumb enough not to retreat.

I'll be sad that the only way to get rid of someone's insane positioning is through an aggressively defensive ground assault on their shields till it runs down.

And yes, you could grab someone who is shielding, but if he was playing smart he would just grab you as soon as you came in close enough.

Many people have talked about air dodging through and hitting from the back. It's such an obvious thing that it would be easily predicted and countered.

All in all... you don't realize how this relates a lot to what has already been done before in the world of smash.

@xylem
I think your pessimism is a little bit too much. While I fear for Brawl sucking, I don't instantly assume it will. Everyone else here seems to have some hope for it so we aren't saying that Brawl WILL SUCK, just that Brawl seems like it will suck. There is still some hope, so don't count it out completely just yet.

okay, okay, I'll be nice and stop posting about it. I suppose for someone aspiring to be pro I should at least show a bit of professionalism and give the game the ol' college try before condeming it.

 

[GhostAnime]

Crying about it wont help.

discussions aren't crying.

 

[Sliq]

Sliq, I find it disturbing that you use the term "chill out" to me, while you've (for the last who knows how many pages) I've been telling people to die in fire because they're arguing a moronic viewpoint. You also fail to comprehend why I mentioned items in the first place. It's becoming more and more obvious that Brawl flat-out won't be as competitive as melee; it doesn't have the necessary mechanics to do so and Nintendo doesn't seem particularly interested in nurturing the typical tourny players. What does this mean? We have to change because Nintendo likely isn't going to do so. The competitive aspect of Brawl is now innately flawed, and we might end up having to use items to balance it out. Yes, I know, items are random, and it annoys me too, but those who wish to salvage what's left of Brawl are going to have to adapt - not rot in stagnation like you're choosing to. You seem to be adopting a fatalistic mindset of Brawl, and that's somewhat understandable, but those who wish for something new for the sake of it being new are going to want to play Brawl, even if it's heavily flawed. Hopefully not all of those will have to be casuals, either.

This is all on a theoretical and philosophical level -- we don't absolutely KNOW if Brawl is going to be broken, we're relying on a demo that may or may not be the finished product. Brawl might turn out fine. Probably not, though.

Genocide machine, my behavior is a hoax. I don't believe it is allright to act like this IN THE REAL WORLD. My whole approach to posting in these threads is one elaborate joke to me. You are ******** for feeding the troll.

My argument is that incorporating luck in order to balance a game means the game is flawed, and is therefore not good. I'd play Texas Hold'em if I wanted a skill/luck based competition. You also are assuming that I won't be able to adapt to the new gameplays. There is a difference between adapting and liking it, and right now I don't like REQUIRING items in order for the game to not be a boring turtle fest.

 

[Teeb147]

I could care less about items, I routinely drillshine people who think the hammer will save them. items just let characters like fox, falcon, sheik, and marth dominate the competition even further, as guess who's going to get to that heart 9 times out of 10 first?

There will probably be brawl tournaments, but I doubt it's going to catch on very well. The kind of people who swoon over brawl don't tend to be the type to take initiative and set up their own tourneys, and good luck keeping the veteran melee players attention for more than a month (who are the one's who set up most tourneys anyway), also I'm fairly certain it will be laughed out of EVO. what I'm saying is good luck finding someone other than clueless sci-fi cons and stores looking to generate business holding them (like once maybe before they figure out it's mario party with teh fightan' thrown on top, halo's a bigger draw of their demographic anyways).

in short I'm sure melee tournaments are going to be back in style a week after brawl's release and everyone of significance realizes how much the gameplay has devolved. who else thinks that melee's competitive scene will more or less shrug off the release of brawl?

I really really really hate your attitude. It really pisses me off when some peole try to bring in divisions like that,.. laughed at? no, nobody would assert that unless people like you start making Brawl players viewed as such.
You're trying to create a division and make people think poeple who play Brawl competitively will be less competent or dedicated.

 

[Blatherskite]

If capsules and such dont explode, I dont see why we cant just find out which items will bring the most balance and only use those. the reason they were banned is for random explosions and such, but now its different.

Exploding capsules is just one of the many reasons for why items were banned. You wouldn't be able to solve the problem just by removing certain items. Just for starters, anything that can be thrown would have to be removed in order to prevent situations such as knocking your opponent off and then getting a star rod, bat, etc.

 

[OrlanduEX]

@ Mookierah

How come you are no longer a mod? Or are you still a mod? I see that your name's no longer red so....

 

[Sliq]

I really really really hate your attitude. It really pisses me off when some peole try to bring it divisions like that,.. laughed at? no, nobody would assert that unless people like you start making Brawl players viewed as such.
You're trying to create a division and make people think poeple who play Brawl competitively will be less competent or dedicated.

Some people just don't get irony.

 

[Soyl]

discussions aren't crying.

Whining/Crying may or may not be present in discussions. Discussions without such are prefered by most.

 

[GhostAnime]

I don't really see crying though. it seems more like a discussion to me. people are just giving their thoughts and feelings.

 

[Blatherskite]

At least we have something to do until March 9th.

 

[GenocideMachine]

Genocide machine, my behavior is a hoax. I don't believe it is allright to act like this IN THE REAL WORLD. My whole approach to posting in these threads is one elaborate joke to me. You are ******** for feeding the troll.

Give me a break. Virtually no trolls act like a troll in real life - they know someone will beat the life out of them because most trolls on internet boards are pasty weaklings with no amount of physical strength or mental prowess. As a general rule it's safe to assume that they lack any amount of self-esteem and must make up for it by bashing random people. I don't exactly see why you bother to mention that your behavior is an elaborate hoax because what does it matter if no one deciphers it? It sounds like you're simply using that as a justification for your general attitude.

My argument is that incorporating luck in order to balance a game means the game is flawed, and is therefore not good. I'd play Texas Hold'em if I wanted a skill/luck based competition. You also are assuming that I won't be able to adapt to the new gameplays. There is a difference between adapting and liking it, and right now I don't like REQUIRING items in order for the game to not be a boring turtle fest.

I don't think I ever argued that adding items was going to be something I particularly enjoyed, but I said that it might be necessary if Brawl turns out to be a complete campfest. It would be to salvage what was left of an innately broken game, and guess what? If you think Brawl completely sucks from the get-go and don't want to help find methods to fix it, you can stick to playing melee. Chances are, the game will turn out fine and the community won't need to explore very alternative methods to fixing it.

Don't think for a second that adding items would be my first choice for fixing Brawl, not by a long shot.

 

[OrlanduEX]

At least we have something to do until March 9th.

lol don't think it will end then. These pointless arguments will be present as long as there are Smashboards.

 

[ArgentStew]

I just have to say that this thread is ridiculous... Half of the posts don't even seem on-topic anymore... All I see are a bunch of people really ticked off at each other... I don't like speculation, and I can't see how you all can speculate about how the competitive metagame will turn out when 99% of the community hasn't even played the game! From what I have seen, competitive gameplay is a gradual evolution...

For example, in my view of L-cancelling, I have to believe that L-cancelling as we know it is gone... However, it may exist in some other form... There are plenty of new features that could reveal a new way to L-cancel... If we can't find a way to L-cancel, then we will find a way to make up for it... I find it difficult to believe that "Brawl will suck" so bad that a competitive play style won't be developed...

So, at the very least, I say just relax and discuss the topic maturely...please?

 

[MookieRah]

You will have to deal with it or not play it. Crying about it wont help.

That's the thing. We were discussing it and ways we could potentially deal with it. We were going into the realm of theory game and working out ways that we could see it being feasible. That is until other people decided to attack us for even discussing the possibility of it not being great, and therefore we spent 25 pages defending why we believe it could not be so great.

We will deal with it, it's just that some people feel inclined to interject discussions that do not apply to them or that they don't have enough knowledge on to really enter it in the first place.

@ Mookierah

How come you are no longer a mod? Or are you still a mod? I see that your name's no longer red so....

I'm still a mod, but I don't want to be seen as a mod as it hinders people from realizing that I am a person and therefore fallible. So basically, I'm in mod stealth mode.

lol don't think it will end then. These pointless arguments will be present as long as there are Smashboards.

Actually, a lot of it will end shortly after Brawl's release, because this site will turn back into the competitive hang out spot it used to be. Things will be nice then, and smart discussions will be more prevalent.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I'm still a mod, but I don't want to be seen as a mod as it hinders people from realizing that I am a person and therefore fallible. So basically, I'm in mod stealth mode.

I see. I guess that's a good thing. People definitely treat mods differently in discussion though the are posters just like everyone else.
This is understandable to a certain extent since mods are generally known to stay on topic and argue intelligently, but some people seem afraid to argue with mods like they'll get points for disagreeing.

 

[Teeb147]

I just have to say that this thread is ridiculous... Half of the posts don't even seem on-topic anymore... All I see are a bunch of people really ticked off at each other... I don't like speculation, and I can't see how you all can speculate about how the competitive metagame will turn out when 99% of the community hasn't even played the game! From what I have seen, competitive gameplay is a gradual evolution...

For example, in my view of L-cancelling, I have to believe that L-cancelling as we know it is gone... However, it may exist in some other form... There are plenty of new features that could reveal a new way to L-cancel... If we can't find a way to L-cancel, then we will find a way to make up for it... I find it difficult to believe that "Brawl will suck" so bad that a competitive play style won't be developed...

So, at the very least, I say just relax and discuss the topic maturely...please?

Thank you argent, thank you.

 

[NeoZ]

I actually believe air game might not be that important anymore, with people being more floaty(and the apparent lack of l-canceling) it just won't have the speed it used to have in melee, and we WILL adapt to it.
I still hope that this is just a demo=/=final game situation, and that we might actually have l-canceling back(it was in smash64 and melee, so why take it out now?).
And on the join date thing... I've been here for around a year, I was just too lazy and didn't register(mostly because there was no need to, with all those guides and people asking everything that wasn't covered).

 

[Adi]

Hmm, originally I was firmly against the usage of items in any form of competitive play, but GenocideMachine has provided an interesting solution to the predicament that we face. True it argues against some of the very basic principles we have set forth since even the first smash's release, but things have changed since then. Items are a perfectly logical alternative to a camp-fest. Some of the lower level items are not overly game-breaking and provide options for offensive pressure. I certainly do not like it, but I fear that it may be our best hope in salvaging Brawl.

 

[yoshi_fan]

I just have to say that this thread is ridiculous... Half of the posts don't even seem on-topic anymore... All I see are a bunch of people really ticked off at each other... I don't like speculation, and I can't see how you all can speculate about how the competitive metagame will turn out when 99% of the community hasn't even played the game! From what I have seen, competitive gameplay is a gradual evolution...

For example, in my view of L-cancelling, I have to believe that L-cancelling as we know it is gone... However, it may exist in some other form... There are plenty of new features that could reveal a new way to L-cancel... If we can't find a way to L-cancel, then we will find a way to make up for it... I find it difficult to believe that "Brawl will suck" so bad that a competitive play style won't be developed...

So, at the very least, I say just relax and discuss the topic maturely...please?

QFT

I really DON'T like a discussion when someone says the others doesn't have the necesary acknoledge for arguing... (looks at mokyerah).

I think every one of the players of Smash can post his opinion about this, even casual who don't know how to L-cancel.

About the loss of it... well, smash 64 has complete L-cancel and is a grabfest. About a friend of mine and I, we don't konow how to L-cancel so well (i can L- cancel a lot, but he can't) and we do a lot of grabs but only a few of them connect... i think we shouldn't worry a lot before it goes out.

And also... we will discover new techniques son don't worry.

 

[Soyl]

There's no freaking balance in Brawl. Have you even looked at any of the demo vids? Ike is a joke. Dk is joke. Bowser is only less of a joke. There's no indication that the developers put a lot of thought into balance.

it'll be a ****ing bland lame *** turtle fest.

he will always be a shithead.

Kill yourself.

I choose to be more pessimistic about my views with the current direction, which is my prerogative. What I don't get is why you care that I think Brawl will suck. I care because I don't want it to suck, and you shouldn't want it to suck too. Judging from WHAT WE KNOW NOW (which is the only data we can use, because I am not ****ing psychic), I feel that Brawl is going in the wrong direction, and I have backed up all my claims with various points.

If you want to think that the Smash developers ride to work on unicorns, drink sunshine, and defecate happiness, that is your prerogative, but don't come in here telling my hypothesis is wrong just because I'm a downer.

well that's just fine that it pisses you off. All the crap that the other hardcore gamers give smashers is now officially true and I'm kinda pissed about that; we were close to winning almost all of them over and getting the respect we deserve then this **** happens. Brawl is ONLY a kids game and I'm not a friggen kid! I play games that are tough like contra, godhand, and ikaruga. I don't want "mario party: punch-out edition" I want smash brothers! I mean to find a game that's competitive AND holds a certain charm like melee is quite rare. I don't think you understand how intense it is to apply everything you've trained for and topple someone everyone thought you had no chance of beating. guys like you tend to not get it and have no pride or craftsmanship in anything you do, a couple of you might change but for the most part mediocrity defines your life in a nutshell.

I remember, but you see, THAT ISN'T THE CASE RIGHT NOW! JESUS CHRIST! If they did that, superb. But what they DID do is remove lag canceling ALL TOGETHER, WHICH IS BAD. You claim this is good. But it isn't, because they didn't replace it with anything else. Generally less lag isn't enough, because you will still get shield grabbed out the ***.

metagame has no place in brawl , both huge disappointments. really this L-cancel thing is a death knell for competitive smash's future and I've just been driven to post because of it; sorta like giving a eulogy (albeit before leaving the morgue as it hasn't been released yet).

for one thing I predict that the "pros" (place consistently) of brawl will be reviled rather than admired. instead of "wow what fast thinking and nasty combos/tech chasing!" it'll be more like "wow, how homosexual and boring, he actually won by time out/camped for 6 minutes"

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo..........

Oh well now the Mindgames will take over Brawl right? I mean we STILL can Space with DashDance AND we can like.....
ummm.. yeah.. dash dance aand.. well we can still...

OH GOD**** YOU SAKURAIII!!!

I really hope your wrong about L-canceling being gone. Because if it is I'm going to gamespot right now and recalling my preorder.

GTFO

then again who are we to tell you about brawl, that game is for kids, old people, and pretencious weeaboos and furries (ie. people who suck at videogames) as it is now so you can have it and talk about how great it is all you want. But don't you f@ggots DARE get off saying it is just as good as melee, that's akin to saying VISTA is better than XP except an order of magnitude more ludicrous.

Die in a fire.

You know what, I don't even care anymore, because you are trolling without a point. Get AIDS.

You won't be missed.

I hope you die from a poisonous spider bite.


I'm totally correct a lot of the time, because I ONLY OPEN MY MOUTH WHEN I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT (or to ask questions when I DON'T).

This thread is ONLY FOR COMPETITIVES. Casuals don't give 2 ****s about AT's because they don't use them. I don't care that they don't, but they certainly care that I do enough to come to this forum and ADD NOTHING TO THE DISCUSSION (very subtle poke at you, don't miss it).

Furthermore, go through this thread and find any post that I referenced that includes any sort of evidence or logic to back up their claim, and I'll show you someone who doesn't know a **** thing about competitive play.

I don't want to say that Brawl will suck if L cancelling isn't in, but... Brawl will suck if L cancelling isn't in.

Let me rephrase that. Competitive Brawl will suffer if L cancelling isn't in the game. This pisses me off. I completely agree with what Sliq is saying regarding this situation (minus the flaming ). The combo's won't come as fast, the matches won't be as fast paced and I'm pretty sure that unless the lag is minimal, some characters may be unplayable at certain levels of play (Bowser? Ike?).

Crap.

There will probably be brawl tournaments, but I doubt it's going to catch on very well. The kind of people who swoon over brawl don't tend to be the type to take initiative and set up their own tourneys, and good luck keeping the veteran melee players attention for more than a month (who are the one's who set up most tourneys anyway), also I'm fairly certain it will be laughed out of EVO. what I'm saying is good luck finding someone other than clueless sci-fi cons and stores looking to generate business holding them (like once maybe before they figure out it's mario party with teh fightan' thrown on top, halo's a bigger draw of their demographic anyways).

in short I'm sure melee tournaments are going to be back in style a week after brawl's release and everyone of significance realizes how much the gameplay has devolved. who else thinks that melee's competitive scene will more or less shrug off the release of brawl?

...

I don't really see crying though. it seems more like a discussion to me. people are just giving their thoughts and feelings.

Is that right?

 

[Adi]

I think very one of the players of Smash can post his opinion about this, even casual who don't know how to L-cancel.

About the loss of it... well, smash 64 has complete L-cancel and is a grabfest. About a friend of mine and I, we don't konow how to L-cancel so well (i can L- cancel a lot, but he can't) and we do a lot of grabs but only a few of them connect... i think we shouldn't worry a lot before it goes out.

This is exactly why we don't want lower level people posting about the issue. Yes smash 64 is a grab fest on the lower levels. However if you believe that statement is universal for all members of the skill curve then you are not in a position to judge the effect of L-cancel's removal on the competitive community.

 

[xylem]

I really really really hate your attitude. It really pisses me off when some peole try to bring in divisions like that,.. laughed at? no, nobody would assert that unless people like you start making Brawl players viewed as such.
You're trying to create a division and make people think poeple who play Brawl competitively will be less competent or dedicated.

I'm really amused that I piss you off so much considering I'm not trying and sliq is telling you to die every other page, my troll-fu is strong!

Dead fcuking serious though; you do realize that until recently all the other hardcore gamers thought melee was a party game, and if you said you were a pro at it you'd get laughed at? smash recently earned the title of "MvC Jr." or "Marvel Jr." because shoryuken and EVO saw the speed and intensity of the fights and and thought "even though it's not as complicated as some of the other games, this **** is serious business!". Now what are they gonna think when the main ignorant complaints like "there's no combos", "campfest", "too slow", "roll fest", are actually true? I'm not going to be the main one laughing at brawl "pros".

oh yeah and about your comment about the incompetence of brawl players, I don't think you're incompetant so much as deluded. I get the feeling a lot of you resent competitively viable players and are like a passive version of Tonya harding, thinking subconsciously "if the pros are crippled, I might be able to enter a tourney with a chance to win/won't automatically get 4 stocked :D". but sadly that is not the case. Even if you played single button melee a pro would probably still stomp you but he would just be that much more cautious because of his lack of options.
Melee had strong projectile, combo/rushdown, and spacing games. Brawl seems to lack any combo/rushdown game, has a crippled projectile game (no more auto cancel), but probably has decent spacing. anybody who was competant with marth might be able to stomach the changes but someone like me who likes fox and likes the combo/rushdown & skilled use of projectiles seems SOL.

 

[Teeb147]

I'm really amused that I piss you off so much considering I'm not trying and sliq is telling you to die every other page, my troll-fu is strong!

Dead fcuking serious though; you do realize that until recently all the other hardcore gamers thought melee was a party game, and if you said you were a pro at it you'd get laughed at? smash recently earned the title of "MvC Jr." or "Marvel Jr." because shoryuken and EVO saw the speed and intensity of the fights and and thought "even though it's not as complicated as some of the other games, this **** is serious business!". Now what are they gonna think when the main ignorant complaints like "there's no combos", "campfest", "too slow", "roll fest", are actually true? I'm not going to be the main one laughing at brawl "pros".

oh yeah and about your comment about the incompetence of brawl players, I don't think you're incompetant so much as deluded. I get the feeling a lot of you resent competitively viable players and are like a passive version of Tonya harding, thinking subconsciously "if the pros are crippled, I might be able to enter a tourney with a chance to win/won't automatically get 4 stocked :D". but sadly that is not the case. Even if you played single button melee a pro would probably still stomp you but he would just be that much more cautious because of his lack of options.
Melee had strong projectile, combo/rushdown, and spacing games. Brawl seems to lack any combo/rushdown game, has a crippled projectile game (no more auto cancel), but probably has decent spacing. anybody who was competant with marth might be able to stomach the changes but someone like me who likes fox and likes the combo/rushdown & skilled use of projectiles seems SOL.

I dont care that he insults me, insults do nothing. Your attitude is what's going to bring down the greatness of competitive brawl.
Btw, im a marth player You're partially right, but for me it's only because there was no smash scene around here, else i woulda played competitively. Brawl has online, its better than nothing.

@ Soyl. The quotes you found incorporate everything I hate about certain people's discussions. Notice how most of them are from Sliq and xylem though. It says alot.

 

[yoshi_fan]

This is exactly why we don't want lower level people posting about the issue. Yes smash 64 is a grab fest on the lower levels. However if you believe that statement is universal for all members of the skill curve then you are not in a position to judge the effect of L-cancel's removal on the competitive community.

I haven't played a lot of smash 64 you know ¬¬, but a lot of people tend to grab a lot to set up a 0-to death combo, even in the highers levels ...

Yeah, there won't be as speed as melee... but STFU a bit and wait for the game to come out and the new bugs/techniques to be discovered. PLEASE, ONLY, WAIT! ok?

I heard in the forums something happened when Smash 64 came out and didn't have as powerful grabs as ssb64: disapointement, but they soon started thinking that game was better because of his others pros.

 

[GhostAnime]

Sure Sliq is being incredibly sarcastic and Super Mari0 is going on a rampage against Sakurai.

but besides Super Mari0, nobody's crying.

 

[Soyl]

Sure Sliq is being incredibly sarcastic and Super Mari0 is going on a rampage against Sakurai.

but besides Super Mari0, nobody's crying.

They are constantly stating that the game will suck when there is no valid proof of such, not yet. This sinks in the idea into people that were being optimistic about the game. Optimistic people like Teeb are now traumatized and will feel bad about the game, more so, because of their attitude.