Kong Kollege: Diddy Kong Tactical Discussion

[DLA]

Yeah Chicago's still salty at MD/VA for beating our B-team in crews at that one S@X a few months ago lol. I think the general consensus is that MD/VA needs to come over here and get their asses whooped. (Besides Pink Fresh, I mean... >.>) I'd bet any amount of money that in a 16-man bracket, Chi's top 8 vs MD/VA top 8, Chicago would clean house. But I digress.



I just made a video for everyone, because something has been frustrating me for a while: very few Diddies know how to sweetspot the edge properly while recovering. Enjoy:

EDIT: ALSO, I forgot to post this earlier, but this is an on-stream Diddy Kong tutorial I did for Windy City Smash, hopefully some of you can pick up a thing or two from it. It was kind of impromptu so I didn't cover everything I wanted to, but it still turned out decently I think.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Double post

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Think you kind of underestimated diddy's versatility on fod. Diddy is a nightmare there, banana on the moving platforms trip larger characters like DDD under him, the stage layout allows for up b ledge cancels , and followups are easier to do on that stage. Yeah yolo dair takes a dive for options like shield drop nair and peanut, but it fits the defensive play style well. (This is not me saying take marth there) Also not even link wants to play diddy on FD lol, that stage is an auto ban even in pm, don't want to lead other smashers wrong, that is just about throwing a match away for nearly the entire cast.
Btw if you want true fear of being edge guarded, play another diddy main, nothing stops diddy's up b more than diddy's up b. Diddy can even side b grab you out of your up b.

 

[DLA]

I usually don't do too bad on FoD. But for me, it's kind of a mindset thing. I get frustrated whenever the platforms **** with something I'm trying to do; it makes me feel slower and more vulnerable, which makes me play less confident. That's never a good thing.

As for FD, try fighting Lazarond's Link there and tell me Link still wants to ban it lol. I've had some baaaaad experiences there.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I usually don't do too bad on FoD. But for me, it's kind of a mindset thing. I get frustrated whenever the platforms **** with something I'm trying to do; it makes me feel slower and more vulnerable, which makes me play less confident. That's never a good thing.

As for FD, try fighting Lazarond's Link there and tell me Link still wants to ban it lol. I've had some baaaaad experiences there.

That could contribute to a bad experience lol. That also explains why you noticably sweetspot better than most other diddy mains. I have played a very good link before in Sgt eagle, and the matchup involves using a ton of zoning and anti zoning strats. open skies means that diddy can get three to four projectiles going in the same direction very quickly, forcing link to block or stand still. At early percent, link is vulnerable to chain grabs, and he is too slow to keep you away from your bananas. The main thing I did was pick one projectile of his to make useless. By focusing on the timing of power shielding even one of links projectiles, it gives a slight hesitation to him wanting to followup. Even though at best my ratio is about 40% (avg 30%) for sending boomerang back ( slow arrow 70%) the fear of it is enough to force less powerful followups like jump nair. Link is definitely great on FD, but I wouldn't waste a ban there given other stages that benefit him more. BTW is it just me or does link do very well on lylat surprisingly. I had to drop that as a counter pick against him

 

[DLA]

Trying to powershield a good Link's boomerang is really risky because if you miss the PS and the rang hits you, Link can hit confirm for free into an 80%+ combo of his choice lol. Especially on FD. Not worth it IMO.

And yeah one of our Links did CP me to Lylat once. I almost lost the match because of it too. Dumb stage

 

[Bellioes]

Just went to my second weekly yesterday and placed a lot higher than the first time. Playing with other people has really helped my game improve.

You may remember I was asking about MU tips agains Ganon. I still got bodied in losers bracket by him but I feel like Im getting a hang of it.

Anyways, any tips on MewTwo? I got sent to losers by one and had no idea what to do. His teleport to nair/fair is so fast. And I couldnt get in on him because of his tilts. So much range on that tail ..

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Just went to my second weekly yesterday and placed a lot higher than the first time. Playing with other people has really helped my game improve.

You may remember I was asking about MU tips agains Ganon. I still got bodied in losers bracket by him but I feel like Im getting a hang of it.

Anyways, any tips on MewTwo? I got sent to losers by one and had no idea what to do. His teleport to nair/fair is so fast. And I couldnt get in on him because of his tilts. So much range on that tail ..

Mew two mu is the most infuriating m.u for diddy uncontested. You can combo him OK which is great, shame all he has to do is tilt in any direction and it leads to high percent. I played one yesterday and literally all diddy's approaches get beat out. Teleport nair beats preemptive peanut shot and hard read nair, you have to do a risky instant up b just to trade the approach. At this point weaving out doesn't even work cause the lag on his tilts are minimum. Even if you are good at instant power shields, his instant teleport nair avoids it, and its all safe. Best advice pray they mess up. And if you get in, don't leave pulling a banana is not worth the neutral reset on most stages.

 

[DeFish]

Does anyone know if Diddy can moonwalk in any meaningful way? I was able to do it with C.Falcon but just couldn't get it right with Diddy.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Does anyone know if Diddy can moonwalk in any meaningful way? I was able to do it with C.Falcon but just couldn't get it right with Diddy.

Diddy Kong's moonwalk isn't good. Barely noticeable. Moonwalk jump still gets you swag points, but wave dash back forward tilt is the only similar mind game option.

 

[DeFish]

I guess if I want to moonwalk in glasses I'll have to pick up Squirtle. :/ Something else I can't seem to google the answer to, is the peanut gun land-cancelable, or can we just air-dodoge out of it?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I guess if I want to moonwalk in glasses I'll have to pick up Squirtle. :/ Something else I can't seem to google the answer to, is the peanut gun land-cancelable, or can we just air-dodoge out of it?

I was looking for that answer everywhere. If it was land cancelable I wanted to try matching samus's missle timing just to troll the other player. I know it can be air dodged out of and you can glide toss immediately after it before another shot, but there isn't a list of land cancelable moves. Except bacon and missles

 

[DeFish]

I've been working on using one of the popgun aerial techniques (I don't know the name, but it involves jumping, pressing B, then jamming the control stick in the opposite direction. The result is that you start charging your neutral b in the direction you were running from, and your momentum shifts to move you in that direction.) and was trying to figure out the optimal timing for release. If it can be land cancelled then I could see charging it until you're just above the ground, but otherwise I think you'd want to release almost as soon as you can out of a SH in order to waveland it.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Need assistance in the Mario matchup. Right now I notice that the Mario I play has a bad habit of always going for down smash after doing fair, and that gives me enough time to spot dodge and punish, but the fireballs are good at forcing a specific angle on diddy's up b when I am off stage, and I still need more than a from the sky approach on fireballs since most stages have platforms.
With the cool down on fireball being so low, it becomes a chore to get to the right point for the side b kick approach, which he can still scout since their aren't too many options. My combo game is great if I catch him at 0%, but falls off quickly after that since you will rarely get dair on a good one, and side b grab is more risky cause of the fast (chidori forward smash). He is just so safe on block its cringe worthy. I just want advice to avoid having to bust out the mew two, I respect myself too much as a player to use that character, and would rather play the character than vice versa. This seems like a bad matchup to play diddy like a floaty.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I've been working on using one of the popgun aerial techniques (I don't know the name, but it involves jumping, pressing B, then jamming the control stick in the opposite direction. The result is that you start charging your neutral b in the direction you were running from, and your momentum shifts to move you in that direction.) and was trying to figure out the optimal timing for release. If it can be land cancelled then I could see charging it until you're just above the ground, but otherwise I think you'd want to release almost as soon as you can out of a SH in order to waveland it.

Its called b reverse, I use the cancel window off of it for momentum shifting. Its good for baiting out smash attacks and seeing how the opponent reacts before you agt. As for the peanut shot, its just a good surprise factor, and a great way to start the match after plucking a banana since it can be done in the same jump.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Nvm on the Mario matchup. I found diddy's forward tilt and up tilt clank any angle Mario throws the fireballs, and he recovers fast enough for me to make fireball spam useless with slow walk. While off stage is a problem, I am getting better at angling the recovery to make misfire barrel go after him, so doing a lot better. His juggle game is real nasty, but the matchup is manageable now

 

[Praxis]

When Mario spams fireballs, look at where the fireballs are going to bounce, and crouchwalk under the parts where they are high.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Yea the tilts really assisted in buying me time to find those spots in the spam. Or I can just pick mew two and PS it all.

 

[Bellioes]

I think I might have found a pretty useful tech if it hasnt already been discovered yet. Ill make a video in the near future if it hasnt but I wanted to confirm here first.

The tech is pretty much GTing towards the edge (within one GT of the edge) and then, I assume, using the leftover momentum from the GT to fall off while doing a turn-around and finally fast falling to grab ledge quicker. It is similar to the pivot ledge grab or " pc drop" from melee. However, it was nigh impossible to do from a run consistently and even more from a dash, so it was more commonly done from a fastwalk. This tech allows for a fast ledge grab from a run and, it seems quicker than RAR wavedashing as well. I know this may not be a relevant point to bring up at higher levels of play but it also doesnt have the added risk of SDing like RAR wavedashing does for those players who are less consistent like me (Im a scrub I know).

Another cool thing is that this comes from a GT, so theres a banana involved of course. The tech can be used to cover multiple options at once like throwing the banana down and then grabbing edge to force opponent onto waiting banana. I know its a very situational tech but I think it could have its uses in edgeguarding. ie. banana thrown offstage covering illusion just above stage + edgehog could force spacies to illusion high giving diddy more time to punish.

But yeah, I have only just recently picked up PM so if this has all already been found, then just ignore this post. Thanks guys.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I think I might have found a pretty useful tech if it hasnt already been discovered yet. Ill make a video in the near future if it hasnt but I wanted to confirm here first.

The tech is pretty much GTing towards the edge (within one GT of the edge) and then, I assume, using the leftover momentum from the GT to fall off while doing a turn-around and finally fast falling to grab ledge quicker. It is similar to the pivot ledge grab or " pc drop" from melee. However, it was nigh impossible to do from a run consistently and even more from a dash, so it was more commonly done from a fastwalk. This tech allows for a fast ledge grab from a run and, it seems quicker than RAR wavedashing as well. I know this may not be a relevant point to bring up at higher levels of play but it also doesnt have the added risk of SDing like RAR wavedashing does for those players who are less consistent like me (Im a scrub I know).

Another cool thing is that this comes from a GT, so theres a banana involved of course. The tech can be used to cover multiple options at once like throwing the banana down and then grabbing edge to force opponent onto waiting banana. I know its a very situational tech but I think it could have its uses in edgeguarding. ie. banana thrown offstage covering illusion just above stage + edgehog could force spacies to illusion high giving diddy more time to punish.

But yeah, I have only just recently picked up PM so if this has all already been found, then just ignore this post. Thanks guys.

Any tech is good tech, if you think this is useless, you should have been here for banana ladder to help stall out a match. Will try it out more when I practice, haven't actively noticed it. Diddy's wave dash distance is long enough not to SD even if you mess up, but by making them land on a banana, that could lead to a nice dair to reverse fair combo at the ledge.

 

[Bellioes]

Any tech is good tech, if you think this is useless, you should have been here for banana ladder to help stall out a match. Will try it out more when I practice, haven't actively noticed it. Diddy's wave dash distance is long enough not to SD even if you mess up, but by making them land on a banana, that could lead to a nice dair to reverse fair combo at the ledge.

Ok ill go ahead and make a video of the tech thursday. At least youll have a visual of what I tried to explain above.

In the meantime, heres a gif I found of the "pc drop". If you read the first page, they say how its difficult to near impossible to do from a dash/run which is why this seems to be a better alternative.

http://smashboards.com/threads/what-is-the-name-of-this-movement-technique.352770/

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Videos are nice , already tested it. It is easy to do from a run if you roll throw banana down and hit opposite direction before falling. As far as I can tell it is a great setup for destroying tether only characters, but does require a banana, and it is slower than an instant rar wave dash after comparing them. Though it is safer. Still useful considering how safe most tethers are.

 

[Bellioes]

Videos are nice , already tested it. It is easy to do from a run if you roll throw banana down and hit opposite direction before falling. As far as I can tell it is a great setup for destroying tether only characters, but does require a banana, and it is slower than an instant rar wave dash after comparing them. Though it is safer. Still useful considering how safe most tethers are.

Ok I got a video uploaded. Im probably doing RAR wavedashing wrong in the video though since to me, it seems slower... Also I SD in the video so im pretty sure Im doing it wrong since you say Diddy doesnt have to sd even if he messes up.

Anyways, it was a really quickly made recording I found time to do today. No commentary so youll have to check the video description for what Im doing or (trying to do) at different timestamps.

Anyways, heres the video. Enjoy.
http://youtu.be/mEG2brG_atM

 

[JulioCoolJazz]

Ok I got a video uploaded. Im probably doing RAR wavedashing wrong in the video though since to me, it seems slower... Also I SD in the video so im pretty sure Im doing it wrong since you say Diddy doesnt have to sd even if he messes up.

With practice I could see this being used in tournament play due to the quick combination of what essentially is edge guarding and edge hogging, which with a banana and a Glide Toss gives DIddy a unique option at the ledge. This is great stuff!

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah i posted about this a while ago and it was known already when i did >.> like back in 2.5. Its really good though, it covers so many option for characters like lucario who have minimal landing lag as you force them to land on stage.

 

[Bellioes]

Oh ok, so it was actually already known for quite some time now.

Well, doesnt hurt to bring it back up for those who werent around yet.

 

[Praxis]

I have a hard time seeing practical usage, because basically every time an opponent is offstage it's because I just hit them with an attack- in other words, I'm usually edgehogging without an item in hand.

And even if I was edgehogging with a naner in hand for some reason, I'd rather have it on me as a punish if they make it past the edgehog...

 

[DeFish]

I actually like kill setups that end in the up-b, so it's not uncommon for me to be edgeguarding with a banana in hand. I like this against certain recoveries that can't get very far on stage if you're edgehogging (Marth comes to mind), and I think that it could also be effective as a mind-game element. Like a lot of Diddy's tech, I think this ends up being more of a situational thing than a staple tactic of the character.

 

[DeFish]

Got reported on Netplay last night for hacking bananas so that my opponent couldn't pick them up. I've been misled all my life, clearly bananas are full of salt, not potassium.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Just got done with a long grueling 75 man Georgia pm tourney. Placed top 5 at salt with fatality and reflex in it seems pretty good, but threw some matches away against a good Samus main with too much aggression and lost twice last stock. Some matches should be recorded soon, but still a bit salty, a lot of the 0-119% chains were not on stream. But yeah a pretty stacked tournament.

 

[SSGuy]

I need to expand my mind on banana possibilities. I consider myself a campy player so I usually keep a banana in my hand and stand opposite side of the stage. Are there any good combo videos truly showing off banana's full potential. Currently, I can glide toss bananas into combos but I want to what kind of dirty tricks he can do with his bananas.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

If you want to learn how to play with bananas, player 1 at the salt tourney i attended plays pm diddy, and his banana game as a projectile is exponentially better than anything you would see on a Tuesday night. It was so obnoxiously good, I realized too late the only chance is to play his diddy without bananas. His combo game is not maximized yet, but he is extremely good at setting up stray hits.
As for combo game, plenty of great people on smash boards to ask around,( praxis, bladewise, soft serve, junebug seagull Joe, boss, etc) and I have a pretty nice punish game myself. Ask around, and you can find some nice ideas like side b chop to footstool dair.
As for campy, watch any 50% of diddy matches, or tune in to Xanadu on Tuesday, the diddy mains there are good at spacing, and pretty good at limiting options as well with their zoning when wanting to reset to neutral.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If you want to learn how to play with bananas, player 1 at the salt tourney i attended picked up pm diddy, and his banana game as a projectile is exponentially better than anything you would see on a Tuesday night. It was so obnoxiously good, I realized too late the only chance is to play his diddy without bananas. Since he is new to the character, his combo game is not maximized yet, but pretty sure it will be there soon.
As for combo game, plenty of great people on smash boards to ask around,( praxis, bladewise, soft serve, junebug seagull Joe, boss, etc) and I have a pretty nice punish game myself. Ask around, and you can find some nice ideas like side b chop to footstool dair.
As for campy, watch any 50% of diddy matches, or tune in to Xanadu on Tuesday, the diddy mains there are good at spacing, and pretty good at limiting options as well with their zoning when wanting to reset to neutral.

P1 has played for 6 years. I would expect his banana gameplay to be good. Sadly, he never had top results to showcase it. At the end of brawl we were 1-1 in tourney lol.

's combos are also from grabs rather then bananas. Bananas just lead into grabs.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Thanks for the added info, edited my previous post. Results of salt are below.

P1 has played for 6 years. I would expect his banana gameplay to be good. Sadly, he never had top results to showcase it. At the end of brawl we were 1-1 in tourney lol.

's combos are also from grabs rather then bananas. Bananas just lead into grabs.

SALT Singles: 75 entrants
1st Reflex
2nd Fatality
3rd CR2 DP's Mario
4th ES
5th ES Searing Sorrow
5th Player 3
7th ES CV Cloud9
7th Player 1
9th Mr. Bones
9th Scatz
9th AML?!
9th Letters
13th Vape
13th Tlock
13th Brett
13th TheGreatKazoo
17th Nixon
17th Shapular
17th Gig
17th Mannywing
17th ChaosMasterro
17th Lakitu
17th Astro
17th ASS?!
25th Magic
25th BunnE
25th Pyro
25th Yuji
25th MAM
25th Tree
25th Z
25th ChipGroove
33rd Axis
33rd Crisp
33rd DRy
33rd Vel
33rd Bovez
33rd Logan
33rd Crabulon
33rd Wolf
33rd Blake
33rd Yoshapod
33rd Golden Belly
33rd Terrence
33rd AeonFlexx
33rd Cross
33rd Vic
33rd FluffyFro95
49th Veishi
49th Hanzo
49th Loki
49th Chief Chop
49th Anime
49th Qusel
49th V
49th Vaxid
49th Fubar
49th TimePilotChicken
49th JZ
49th Chabs
49th ChaoticSnipe
49th Doc
49th Classification
49th Poptart
65th Bandit
65th Steve
65th TM 12
65th C7
65th Apple
65th StarX
65th The Walrus
65th Blizz
65th Kreed
65th Kawaii Senpai
65th Mr. T

SALT Doubles: 19 entrants
1st Reflex and Player 1
2nd Fat Bones
3rd Brett and Tlock
4th Luigi Power
5th Player 3 and AML?!
5th Salt and Pepper
7th BunnE and Vel
7th Rocket Shap
9th Bob Omb and DRy
9th Bovez and Mr. T
9th Battle Buddies
9th Chief Loki
13th Pyro and TM 12
13th Qusel and Wolf
13th Hibbleton
13th Kawaii Cross
17th D and T
17th Blizz and Tree
17th Crisp and Anime
I noticed unorthodox works well on other characters, but my textbook diddy is better for dittos. Because I don't play other diddy mains, my banana game defenses aren't as good as they could be, but learned enough nonbanana play options from bladewise to make up for it in cases where bananas become a hinderance. Glad some people werent prepared for diddy combos going 50%+

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

http://www.twitch.tv/eaglesmash/b/548922335
I start off around the 49 minute mark of this hot seat. Even though the atmosphere is casual and happy, The chain grabs I incorporated should give you an idea of how a lot of my zero to deaths start, and the extensions added into the combos since I first started using it are much more refined and lead to a lot more consistent damage. Also noted, the banana toss up b someone mentioned does cover all options after meteor spiking the opponent, and gives enough time to go hit with another up b. This was the last day of practice before salt, and the ganon stayed up all night practicing after 2 months of not playing to do very well in the tourney. He got a lot better through the night in comparison to my match with him, and it showed at salt. Also salt videos are up, including reflex vs fatality.
I got a few friendlies in as well, and played several matches vs metaknight and bowser (feels like diddy favored) though sadly those were on a different screen.
Good advice to remember: "dont Try to rank people while playing them mid tourney, it is very difficult, and you will lose focus." Just play friendlies later and point out situations as you see them. Here match 2 is a perfect example, I spent so much time thinking what is missing for b tier, I lost a match on my best stage.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QSOGs-umMnA

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

1. Just because I feel like adding to tactics. The b reverse pop cancels I use a lot can also be non canceled and used to safely Waveland and grab your own peanut in mid jump in the heat of battle. Though the timing takes getting used to. Is a lot safer to do on tilted platforms like yoshi island, but can be done without waveland if you have space from enemy.
Working on a trap with a down b banana pluck, peanut glide toss and side b grab to create an unblockable setup, but it is very difficult to setup and I want to see how practical holding a peanut is over a banana before committing to any shenanigans. Got to have more tricks than just chain throw shenanigans and looking for better setups. Want to reach s rank by the end of next month in Georgia even though ahead of schedule right now on month 3.

 

[SpiderMad]

Your stuff sounds so good but by now I wish you would record exactly what you're talking about

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

With Praxis, your the second person that has said that...Does YouTube and twitch channel count all posted in the video archive of this character's thread? , and I get the ideas from other players and trial and error. The chain throw up throw to side b with followups is on YouTube and started from a failed input on lvl 7 bowser. Did them in round 2 after trolling a pikachu to almost time out and added extensions to the combo over time with practice to create these moments. Though missing the footstool 0 to death shenanigans i am accustomed to, enough is there to show this can be trouble on nearly any character with practice.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bpbB7eSHQ
Minute: 8:01, 9:01, 9:25
Then did them again in the troll match I had with ***?!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QSOGs-umMnA
At: 2:20 11:53 and 15:00 . Two grabs that lead to big damage that are easy to setup thought it was a good idea to learn, but since noone else does, maybe I was wrong. So far have percents and followups for various d.I on all but 5 characters, and think I may have found what I needed for the chain on those last 5 thanks to a video praxis was in.

The b reverse peanut cancels I did a few times against the Zelda in a battle also recorded and posted on YouTube. 1:08 2:39 in celebration. 4:05 as a combo finisher 6:21 failed setup and 12:08 used the movement to dodge uair but failed the cancel. This option was not as good in this matchup cause above Zelda is dangerous territory.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D_lfM_q2tdk
Its just an added movement option similar to wave dashing in mid air, good for baiting punishes and throwing off timing before agt banana toss. Also allows for far away punishes and let's you face the direction you went from to get the banana or set up cross up aerial nair.
As for the peanut catch shenanigans (someone else thought of it, I just wanted to make it safer), so far I can cause a hard tech after a footstool at any percent with it, but finding no value in creating unblockables outside of a z drop into a falling b reverse popgun shot Then side b. Since it requires a full jump, no replay value after seeing it once. I won't mention things unless I think others can make it practical or I can see myself using it in tourney. I do explain in detail how to do these things as well, just bananas are usually good enough to win 90% of matches so most don't want to learn percent weight fall speed and d.I dependent things lol. Still post them for the sake of improving the character as well as getting my own game critiqued.

 

[Bellioes]

I used the chainthrows in our weekly yesterday (first weekly over 50 entrants woop woop!) and they worked great. I like the Dair follow up more than the nair follow up though because I never can get anything more out of nair. Any tips @ Searing_Sorrow ? They always jump out of the combo before I can land and get another aerial /Usmash in. Do I need a platform to be able to continue the combo after Nair?

Anyways, Im having real troubles against Ivysaur. I know you can sideB kick through razor leaf and punish the ivy but sometimes there is not enough time and I can only shield which leads to a free grab for ivy. Also, my banana approaches get stuffed by razor leaf or any vine attack so Im having trouble approaching. Should I be playing the match up more campy because so far, getting and trying to stay in her face (or his) is just getting me wrecked. My lucas did a lot better in friendlies against him afterwards but I really want to be a Diddy exclusive main so trying to learn the mu. Thanks guys.

 

[Soft Serve]

@ Bellioes I dont really know anything about the ivy MU anymore, but I do know a tech that can help with razor leaf camping.

glide toss a banana into the razor leaf, the jump after it and re-agt. its simple and really effective because bananas clank out most projectiles and stay in the air. I was going to make a short video this week about it.