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Kish Character Impressions 2/9/08 Tournament

KishPrime

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We've had the game since launch, and while I am not speaking for everyone in our group, I can say that this is a rough compilation of our thoughts on the characters so far. We could be wrong on everything since it is early, but this is a start.

Brawl Tier, New Thoughts
Marth – I still feel that he is the best character in the game. When you split up his moves and don’t use them repeatedly you get such good knockback, and his range is really great. Damage is good, recovery is good…he’s just good.

Fox – No reason to drop him, but haven’t played him since last evaluation. Saw enough from Jeff playing him to think that he’ll be top again.

Game and Watch – fsmash may be the best move in the game, quick and I’d be hard-pressed to name a better launch move outside of Zelda toe, Dedede fsmash, and Ike fsmash. Neutral B rocks. Everything else is great too, he’s just good.

Pikmin/Olimar –Even the moves that use his body are generally high priority and with Pikmin they are ridiculous, he is hard enough to hit being small, and the pikmin are one of the best projectiles, cover multiple attack angles, can’t be blocked, and are fast to pluck. His weaknesses include a serious weakness to edgehogging. All tether recoveries in the game are horrible, as hitting someone with your Up-B during an edgehog still won’t get you the edge.

Pokemon Trainer – Because it literally forces you to use all three for parts of the match, the necessity of learning three characters makes for a high learning curve. It’ll be awhile until we really get a good grasp on these characters. I’m still trying to learn more about how stamina works.
Charizard – I like his moveset. There is a lot of diversity here, and while he is slow I think he will be able to still be played quickly. I’m not fully convinced that we won’t see a lot of PT players bypassing him entirely.
Ivysaur – Still like him but I can’t do anything against a CPU with him. We’ll see this weekend if I can play him better. (now) yes, he’s good. He’s probably my favorite, though I now think Squirtle may be better.
Squirtle – Better than I originally thought, but it’s going to take some technique to play this character well. He has a nice combination of combo moves and kill moves, but it’s hard to use them all in these early stages. Seems really light, it would make sense if he was. He’s really good.

Toon Link –a quick character with decent kill moves, and at least the option of projectiles, though they aren’t great.

Zamus – Is now showing the Sheik like capacity that many thought she’d have from the start. Has awesome combos, some nice edgeguarding tricks, and good kill moves. Tether recovery is the negative.

Pikachu – Still seems great, but playtime is limited. Those of us that have played him are in disagreement.

Mario – Cape no longer edgeguards. <_< Still seems very solid, but don’t know anyone who is playing him much. One of the closest to his Melee counterpart.

Luigi – Nice priority and power on everything. King Joshu really likes him. Up-B is still too good, and Down-B has been vastly improved for recovery.

Lucario – (Pre-tournament) I love the idea that his power increases as damage increases, could make for a great power/combo duality. Playing against him (CPU/human both) is very difficult. (Post-tournament) Ok, he’s going to be one of the most stressful characters to play as. You will rarely be able to get a huge lead, and even if you do the mechanics of damage are going to give the other players chances to get back in it. If you get behind by a stock, you are in serious trouble. Still, someone will make him a good character.

Diddy Kong – I hate monkeys. Bananas are really good. Don’t know anything else, but everyone else says he’s awesome.

Lucas – Moves have great power and range. I really like him as a backup character.

Bowser – Suicide plunge too good, but not even close to broken. Even the potential to trade a 150% stock for a 0% stock is nice. It also can’t be blocked and does 19% damage. Everything else seems decent, and up-B out of shield still makes for an awesome defensive move. He’s still getting abused by some characters.

Zelda – Still love what they’ve done with her. Many of her tilts kill as well. Recovery is still bad, but she is a great character overall. Showing some of the same problems that plagued her in the last game, but she is still significantly better.

Wolf – His running speed is so slow, but his moveset is pretty decent. He has a lot of priority sometimes.

Sheik – nothing new to add, still not convinced that she’s as good as Zelda

Kirby – Completely improved from the old game yet can be played largely the same, it seems like this is a character with great potential for all those Kirby SSBM masters.

Falco – Lasers are still super annoying, even if fired from the ground. Upsmash now kills better, as well as fsmash. Finally starting to get the hang of him in a decent way.

Dedede – Meh…still can’t decide if he’s that great outside of his chain grab, and now some people say they can get out of it. I’m not convinced yet that he is great. Update: We’ve tried everything that people say to get out of the chain grab. It doesn’t work. Now some characters can’t be chain grabbed, Jigglypuff in particular falls on the ground.

Metaknight – Haven’t played him since, still don’t see him killing well, has very limited kill moves. His insane priority may make him an extremely strong counter in certain situations

Pit – Still has awesome combos and priority. Even with my enhanced understanding of game mechanics, I’m having extreme difficulties killing, along with another friend who mains him. Combined with the relatively low damage that his moves seem to do, this may be a huge problem that will force Pit down the tier list. I know I’m in disagreement with a lot of people, so he’s one to watch.

Wario – He destroys pikmin when I try to throw them at him. That’s all I know. Everyone seems to think he’s ok, but I think that Wario is almost universally hated as a character so no one wants to play as him.

Peach – Very low landing lag regardless of the loss of float cancel. May allow her to do more in the air than other characters. Really like the new uptilt. Zombies don’t kill nearly as fast. dsmash does soooo much less damage (about 6% per hit), keeps them on top of you, has low range, and still has lag afterwards. fair and nair still seem extremely nerfed to me, thus causing her to have killing problems, but I’m not a Peach player so I could be wrong.

Snake – Could be the Ganon of this game, slow but has some very strong moves. The ranged attacks help him significantly. Jab combo is fast and kills, which is truly awesome. Mines are too fun, but they keep backfiring on me. :p Aerial moves are incredible.

Jigglypuff – All of her moves have good priority, and now fair kills pretty well. I’m still not sure she’ll ever be a tournament winner this time around.

Ganondorf – I really don’t like him. I may still just be playing him like I do in Melee, but I feel like he spends so much time in cooldown whether on ground moves or landing lag. As we find ways to do moves to reduce landing lag, he may get better. (post-tournament) Seen some better things now…hm.

Ike – Man, his value will be purely determined on how fast the game gets in advanced play. Yes they kill nice, but his moves come out realllllllly slow. He has a couple decent, quick (relative to himself) moves, which still kill at times(!) but I’m not sure he can win with bairs, nairs, and ftilts alone. Up-B could actually be a decent anti-air move. I still think he will end up in the ability range that Roy is in now.

R.O.B. – Good character overall, trades speed for power and range, almost everything is disjointed. Not completely sure if he’ll make it this high as the list develops

Ice Climbers – now that desync is possible, I’m seeing way more potential for them. Still seems like a lot of kill moves have been nerfed too hard for them to be as good as they were in Melee. Fair is an awesomely powerful spike

Link – Many of his kill moves seem overly difficult to hit with. His Up-B out of shield has been nerfed so bad, it is no longer anything that will kill. His boomerang seems nearly useless, though I’m not sure if the gust can be used for anything yet. His air moves are very easy for the CPU to dodge, and then they really punish my lag. I don’t know, I’m really down on him from my first play. His jumps are surprisingly short.

Sonic – I’ve seen him played better than I’m playing him (especially by the CPU), but I still can’t find a way to consistently kill. Bugs me to death, I really wanted to play as him. Jeff plays him about as well as I’ve seen, and we still agree he just seems like a weak character.

Captain Falcon – no idea. Some people say uair redeems him as a character. I still can’t play him well, and pretty much everyone in my group is in agreement.

Samus – Even the computer isn’t good with her. I just can’t figure out what she’s supposed to do aside from switch to Zero Suit Samus.

Ness – Just didn’t gain anything from the transition to Brawl and lost a lot with the removal of double jump cancel. EDIT: Apparently I was wrong, and everyone is telling me so.

Yoshi – We don't like him.

No idea what to think yet
Donkey Kong – I hate monkeys
 

Firestorm88

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I've been hearing a lot of praise for Toon Link. I found I couldn't really do much with him, but that might be because I was playing him like Young Link in Melee which was a bad idea due to the crappier projectiles. What moves does he kill with most often? The new b-air and n-air I guess? I should switch up my style and see I guess. Too bad most of my games are FFAs at the moment =(
 

SolidSonic

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Tier lists thus far are only the result of personal preference in the amount of time spent with each character?
 

Misto-Roboto

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Zamus – [...] Tether recovery is the negative.
Explain.

Ness – Just didn’t gain anything from the transition to Brawl and lost a lot with the removal of double jump cancel.
Everyone has given me the impression he has a lot of his moves buffed, despite not having his DJC, is he still not up to par?
 

drengist

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So, Wolf isn't in the top after all? I have to get used to the thought of Mr. GW being a god tier. ;)
 

Misto-Roboto

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Snake – Could be the Ganon of this game, slow but has some very strong moves. The ranged attacks help him significantly. Jab combo is fast and kills, which is truly awesome. Mines are too fun, but they keep backfiring on me. :p Aerial moves are incredible.
hmmm, no snake?
Forget to read?
 

Thinkaman

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Formatting aside though, these are fantastic impressions. Thanks a ton for sharing!
 

Titan05

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Zamus's up B is a tether recovery move which doesn't really get you much considering that its straight up.
HOWEVER...
1. Down B can and does function as a really short jump which (I think, I can't remember) can easily transition to
2. Side B which is also a tether recovery but its sideways instead of upwards thereby gaining you some useful ground.

I've only spent three hours with the game over at D-Pad though, so I could be wrong.

Although I mostly agree with you on the tier business, give people some more time to get to know the characters. Who knows? Maybe we'll find something new and amazing.
 

Lunaretic

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Am I the only one taking this with a [large] grain of salt until we see the US version for a significant length of time/# of tournaments?
 

SimaMatt

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Am I the only one taking this with a [large] grain of salt until we see the US version for a significant length of time/# of tournaments?
No.

I'm waiting a year or two before I actually take a tier list for ssbb seriously :x though it is nice to hear the opinions of chars from people.
 

Nintendude

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Am I the only one taking this with a [large] grain of salt until we see the US version for a significant length of time/# of tournaments?
Yeah, and hopefully many people are. It's really great to see impressions from well-respected members of the Melee community but we have to remember that we've still seen very little of this game. Right now I'm just hoping that Fox and Marth are not top tier again. I'd especially hate for Fox to be such a monster for what would be the 3rd game in a row.

So anyway, thanks for the impressions, Kishes. I wish someone would actually play DK though:laugh:
 

Solo Assass1n

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Samus doesn't deserve to be down that low. I'm sure it's just because most people can't use her right. If that's not the case, then she needs some advanced techniques exclusive to her... and fast...
 

KishPrime

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Edited it to be easier...apologies.

Again, these are just our group's impressions and by no means are we saying they are RIGHT. Just our thoughts. Yes, most people are basing their tier lists on who they play. We've been around long enough that most people should figure out that this one is not like that.

I love the game. It's not Melee. I love the fact that l-cancelling is out. It makes the approach game much different, and the game as a whole could get more defensive, but so far it is not to an extreme. I'm working on some other write-ups.
 

Nintendude

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Random question: Can Samus really missile cancel still? I've heard from some people that it's out, but more recently heard that she could still do it. I've yet to see video proof though.
 

dmbrandon

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I hate to dis the kish, because I love them ship of fools. But this, IMHO, is so wrong, I could cry. Your reasons aren't researched, and you haven't played every character enough to know the true strengths and weaknesses.

1. Putting Samus and Ness in low tier really hurt your credibility. Ness can cambo any character instantly to 50 using 3-4 moves. And Samus? You mid west players never really did know the true power she had, even in Melee.

2. Toon Link is complete top tier.

Just check the rankings link in my sig, kish, and check out my things.
 

Misto-Roboto

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1. Putting Samus and Ness in low tier really hurt your credibility. Ness can cambo any character instantly to 50 using 3-4 moves. And Samus? You mid west players never really did know the true power she had, even in Melee.
I knew it, Ness seemed like he had been buffed. I knew I was imagining things. Good to hear Samus is doing well.
 

Kokichi

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FYI guys, Donkey Kong is going to either be top tier or very close. He's just too good in this game, I'm not even joking.
 

EazyP

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Ness, ROB, Samus, Ike, Dedede, Wolf, Diddy, Lucas, Luigi, Toon Link too low

Marth, Fox, G&W, Pokemon Trainer, Zamus, Mario, Bowser, IC, Ganondorf too high

Waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too early for a tier list, and I just highly disagree with this one
 

dmbrandon

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FYI guys, Donkey Kong is going to either be top tier or very close. He's just too good in this game, I'm not even joking.
This is not true. Not at all. His Bair is good, and his Uair is good. His Fair and Dair have no place in the game. He has no downward, or forward approach. His DKpunch has been nerfed, still no air DB, and his SB is still useless.
 

Milln

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I've seen a Sonic played by a guy with the tag "Ether" and he seems to make Sonic work. I'm actually following this guy's videos as a guide to what I plan to do with Sonic.
 

Socrata

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Thanks for the impressions, but I think that Pit has more potential then you gave him credit for. That aside, I would be pleased if he wasn't God tier so I wouldn't have to deal with people being upset with me using him.
 

YoshiBomb

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Yoshi – Everyone else says he sucks

Wow your a F@g could you please actually play him then put him somewhere. I actually that was going to be a good review/how good are they thread until you just say

Everyone says he sucks. Must be how you guys do the tier list

Really you guys are Mods you shouldn't do stuff like that you should get a full review before you post stuff like that
 

KishPrime

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I hate to dis the kish, because I love them ship of fools. But this, IMHO, is so wrong, I could cry. Your reasons aren't researched, and you haven't played every character enough to know the true strengths and weaknesses.
Erm...no I haven't played every character enough, and that's why I said that.

Last I checked you had some things wrong yourself. No reason to cry about it. I'd probably agree with Toon Link up to Top.

The Yoshi thing was a joke...oh well.

I'll edit out the tiers. I agree that it is too early for a tier list. It's just a list of impressions.
 

VisetheStompy

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Honestly I like seeing all these different lists of character ranking. Lists being so varied and people having vastly different opinions of character strength is a good sign of balance. Hope it sticks and the Tier ranks difference in power shrinks.:)
 

dmbrandon

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I've seen a Sonic played by a guy with the tag "Ether" and he seems to make Sonic work. I'm actually following this guy's videos as a guide to what I plan to do with Sonic.
Montage ftw.

Thanks for the impressions, but I think that Pit has more potential then you gave him credit for. That aside, I would be pleased if he wasn't God tier so I wouldn't have to deal with people being upset with me using him.
Pit is very good, but will not be in the top 5, I'm thinking. 6 maybe!

Erm...no I haven't played every character enough, and that's why I said that.

Last I checked you had some things wrong yourself. No reason to cry about it. I'd probably agree with Toon Link up to Top.

The Yoshi thing was a joke...oh well.

I'll edit out the tiers. I agree that it is too early for a tier list. It's just a list of impressions.
Don't get mad, Kishy. <3!!
Honestly I like seeing all these different lists of character ranking. Lists being so varied and people having vastly different opinions of character strength is a good sign of balance. Hope it sticks and the Tier ranks difference in power shrinks.:)
I agree with this
 

SeriousWB

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Keep doing what you're doing guys, my favourite thing about Brawl so far is everyone's different interpretations of the characters and their abilities. I can look at a lot of different people's impressions and make myown out of it, which is nice.
 

MookieRah

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I agree with Kish's list way way more than the "Montage" list. Seriously...

All that said, there hasn't been enough time to even begin to try and do this sort of thing.
 

ApatheticApe

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The ****....
How the hell can you even make a tier list yet, until there are tourneys with skilled players we won't know.

And then there's the fact that you said you just didn't like some of the characters so they were lower, wth?

And if Samus is like in Melee she'll be high tier, I really can't see her being any worse than she was in melee.
 
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