9Kplus1
Smash Master
So, I've been thinking about taking Kirby up as my main when I get my Wii fixed. Is there anything that I should really practice on besides his grab/tilt game?
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Kirby Question and Answer/Helpful Thread directory! <(^_^)>
- Thread starter momochuu
- Start date
Learn your spacing. Kirby will need lots of that if you want to play at Kirby's best.
Use him a lot and learn how long his attacks last/how far they reach/how hard they hit/how fast they are.
Practice the fthrow combo. It helps against almost all of the cast! A free 0-3x%/4x% is never a bad idea (that looks like a weird math formula)!
Start mindgaming/baiting more. In order to do this, you'll have to play until you master Kirby, so no rush here!
Choose the yellow color! We all know Mango/Banana/Pizza is the best thing to happen to mankind, why not use it on the best character to ever happen to mankind?
Use him a lot and learn how long his attacks last/how far they reach/how hard they hit/how fast they are.
Practice the fthrow combo. It helps against almost all of the cast! A free 0-3x%/4x% is never a bad idea (that looks like a weird math formula)!
Start mindgaming/baiting more. In order to do this, you'll have to play until you master Kirby, so no rush here!
Choose the yellow color! We all know Mango/Banana/Pizza is the best thing to happen to mankind, why not use it on the best character to ever happen to mankind?
Purple
Hi guys!
I use mango in tournaments! :D. Lime in friendlies if you've seen my matches.Learn your spacing. Kirby will need lots of that if you want to play at Kirby's best.
Use him a lot and learn how long his attacks last/how far they reach/how hard they hit/how fast they are.
Practice the fthrow combo. It helps against almost all of the cast! A free 0-3x%/4x% is never a bad idea (that looks like a weird math formula)!
Start mindgaming/baiting more. In order to do this, you'll have to play until you master Kirby, so no rush here!
Choose the yellow color! We all know Mango/Banana/Pizza is the best thing to happen to mankind, why not use it on the best character to ever happen to mankind?
Play Smart Mostly. That falls into the category of Spacing everything and knowing when to punish stuff and when just to retreat. Kirby's offensive game is punishing opponents mistakes and stuff.
Don't fall for stupid things and keep your mistakes to a minimum. You can't afford mistakes with Kirby.
Oh and (in general) Short hop, air dodge while at the middle of the short hop and fall into up tilt is too good. Good info *That any new Kirby mainer* should know.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
I tend to only do that when they're in kill %s, so they don't expect it, and use Dsmash instead of Utilt.
Both are effective though.
Purple
Hi guys!
grab release to charge forward smash for constant spotdodgers. Smart idea or no.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
It can be. A lot of people get caught off guard by it. Just don't do it too often, or it will get punished.
I've only used it with DSmash a couple of times. Most of them to punish MK's Shuttle loop Glide attack. I like the fact that he crouches and the top of his head becomes a Hit box.
People mostly dodge roll away from you when you grab release. Well, good players do. If they do spam spot dodge (Ive seen them. They do spot dodge after EVERYTHING so yeah, It'll probably work. But chances are you'll crush them no matter what you do so It's no big deal).
Again, it depends on the player. Most people air dodge and fall into another uptilt. They either jump after the second Utilt or jump after the first hit all together. Id much rather go for an Up air after the first up tilt.
Utilt (like down grab) gives the opponent few options and, almost all of them can be punished. That's why it should be spammed (along with bair, lol.).
Tektite
Smash Apprentice
Do you mean you Bair when the oppenent (in the tumbling animation) hits the ground? It causes a "force getup" in which the oppenent can't attack or roll to stand up. Leaving you for easy grabs or Fsmash.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
I agree with what Dfat said. However, if you managed that Footstool, why not just go for a reverse air hammer?
RoflWafflez
Smash Apprentice
Dair is good approach if ur not predictable with it...if ur opponent knows ur gonna do it, u'll get punished severely.
What i think works pretty well is start aerial camping overhead so that they have no idea what ur gonna do next, and throw in a random d-air in ur flurry of aerials, catching them off-guard.
Also, i find following a d-ar with a grab is WAY better than a f-smash, due to the fact that most players block the incoming f-smash easily (if they're smart, anywayz). So yea, grabs have a higher reward IMO.
What i think works pretty well is start aerial camping overhead so that they have no idea what ur gonna do next, and throw in a random d-air in ur flurry of aerials, catching them off-guard.
Also, i find following a d-ar with a grab is WAY better than a f-smash, due to the fact that most players block the incoming f-smash easily (if they're smart, anywayz). So yea, grabs have a higher reward IMO.
Well, a friend of mine that was playing Jigglypuff gave me a good idea that (ironically) worked for me vs. his Metaknight. Short hop Dair on his shield (don't fast fall) and fall behind for a reverse grab. I don't know if it'll work for everyone and most people figure ways around things like that, but if it works at least once for you, it's proven unusefull. Question it's usefulness how ever you want, lol.
But, to answer your question, Dair approaches aren't all that great. It has significant Start up Lag and landing lag if it doesn't hit. Try to make it end before you reach the floor and dodge roll away. Otherwise you will probably get grabbed. Try to aim at behind the top of their shield so you wont get grabbed.
And Dair to Fsmash works on scrubs that don't DI or at least people that forget to. Don't count on it as an effective killing method (except when the opponent is at 130% or more. Then (I think) it works like Foxes Dair to Up smash). But Still, it's not reliable enough. You should find other way's to Kill *Cough Cough* Don't Spam Bair so you could kill with it *Cough Cough* (generally to anyone).
Only use dair as approaches in the rarest of scenarios. Make it a situational move, and I'll accept it (like going through jugglers, spiking/gimping, ledgehop options).
A bair is usually a better idea than dair in the "floating overhead" kinds of situations. Less lag, means more time to survive punishment if you fail. People are usually blocking all your approaches and end up shieldgrabbing them if you end up on top of them after your attack, which dair pretty much does. Bair can be spaced, making it way safer.
I follow my dairs with ftilts, gets them away from me and doesn't leave me open, as it pushes them away from me (in case, if I attempt a grab, it fails). I usually follow up grabs after falling bairs at low %s. Falling bair>reverse dash grab>dthrow>utilt (until he's almost out of it)>rising bair works wonders, and either always combo into each other, or none of my opponents know how to DI (which I don't think so)...
You can get out of that STRING right after the falling B-air. I'm positive that you're opponent's can DI. Everyone knows how to DI. How ever, not everyone knows how to DI properly.I follow my dairs with ftilts, gets them away from me and doesn't leave me open, as it pushes them away from me (in case, if I attempt a grab, it fails). I usually follow up grabs after falling bairs at low %s. Falling bair>reverse dash grab>dthrow>utilt (until he's almost out of it)>rising bair works wonders, and either always combo into each other, or none of my opponents know how to DI (which I don't think so)...
I'd buy it at really low percents (I mean from 0% to 6/7%). If the even if you get the reverse dash grab, a simple jump and Air dodge gets you out of the up tilt. I don't think you use it effectively as much as you'd like to make it sound like. If you're opponent is half decent at least, they'd find a way out of it eventually.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Do you guys have any frame data?
If not, what is better for momentum canceling.
Bair or uair?
If not, what is better for momentum canceling.
Bair or uair?
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Bair. Bair, fair, and I think uair come out on frame 9, but bair, despite having a long duration, ends the fastest.
The bair doesn't send them too far, even if they DI. And like I said, low %s. Anything near 0% is great IMO. And, that's just one thing that I, Kewkky, have seen myself do while I play, and it always connects, even against the same people. DI or no DI, the falling bair will connect with a reverse dashgrab (and a reverse ftilt will also connect)... They'll be too busy during their hitstun animations to do anything before the grab finally reaches them.
Call it string or w/e, I don't care. Brawl combos (AKA strings) have "combo" in the name, so I can say "combo" for short if I want to... Not like training mode can count a grab as a consecutive hit after anything (even other grabs). Check it out with DDD or Falco.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
Anyway, I personally use Uair, cause it's the easiest one to remember for me since it works well for all my characters, and I seem to live pretty long.
However, I do remember hearing that Dair was the best for some strange reason a while back. I'm pretty sure Gonzo said he'd tested that.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
It does not matter when it comes out. It matters when the move ends overall.
All aerials start on frame 1 which is also the soonest you can fastfall. That is why aerials > airdodges. You cannot fastfall during an airdodge.
Also, bair, bair, fair isn't correct momentum canceling because you only need 1 aerial.
If you guys don't have frame data, I can use Brawl + hacks to view the game frame-by-frame and get you guys some.
I want the best - I have a good memory and can remember the best for almost all the characters. I want to know this for information purposes and because I use Kirby for the lulz (pink puffball) because my Jigglypuff no longer works (disc can't be read) due to mom/sisters.
Also dair will automatically fastfall when you use the c-stick, so some people consider it "the best" when, however, it is usually the worst move.
If you use your quickiest aerial and mash down (vertical knockback) that is the best momentum canceling.
tl;dr
Kirby boards seem to fail at momentum canceling. I should see if you guys know how to DI/SDI (becauses xBlackVoid... I forgot his SWF name, but that's his AIM. He has some nice SDI/DI)
Well, I know how to SDI/DI. I also think that U air is better than Bair. Fair has 3 hit's, Dair has too much Start up Lag and is a multi hit move, same as Nair. And Bair stays active for a while. I really don't know which ends first.
And yeah, we have frame data Courtesy of T!mMy. It's in his guide next to every move. You should check and see which one ends first.
And yeah, we have frame data Courtesy of T!mMy. It's in his guide next to every move. You should check and see which one ends first.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
B-air
Cool-down: 7-26
U-air
Cool-down: 11-30
(Red is the important thing)
Bair > Uair by 4 frames.
So bair is your best momentum cancel, always. Which is what I thought.
Uair is not better then bair, also it doesn't matter that fair has 3 hit's if it was faster it is faster.
Dair, it doesn't matter how much startup lag you have - nor the fact it's a multi hit move (Link's bair is the best move to momentum cancel with, it hit's 2 times.)
Nair lasts way to long (you can visually see this one)
<_<
Cool-down: 7-26
U-air
Cool-down: 11-30
(Red is the important thing)
Bair > Uair by 4 frames.
So bair is your best momentum cancel, always. Which is what I thought.
Uair is not better then bair, also it doesn't matter that fair has 3 hit's if it was faster it is faster.
Dair, it doesn't matter how much startup lag you have - nor the fact it's a multi hit move (Link's bair is the best move to momentum cancel with, it hit's 2 times.)
Nair lasts way to long (you can visually see this one)
<_<
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Right, but I'm saying 'supposedly', Dair had some weird property that slowed momentum. *shrugs* I didn't test it or even know how to, but t'is what I heard.
I just know Uair works well.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Bair works better then uair, and dair automatically fastfalls if you c-stick it that 'slows' vertical momentum. However it's no better then any other aerial.
Dair's have often been deemed to be "better" in some cases, and I know quite a few people (few Link's even) who use dair over the better aerial...for whatever reason... it's all in their heads. <_<
I've done some testing, although not specifically for Kirby - I don't really notice any special momentum about his dair. If so, it lasts long enough to make any special momentum not really matter.
So if you think uair works well, and bair (works better), I'd start using bair.
Unless I didn't understand how he had the IASA frames and uair is faster due to IASA frames (which I don't think... I'm pretty sure I understood the IASA frames)
Dair's have often been deemed to be "better" in some cases, and I know quite a few people (few Link's even) who use dair over the better aerial...for whatever reason... it's all in their heads. <_<
I've done some testing, although not specifically for Kirby - I don't really notice any special momentum about his dair. If so, it lasts long enough to make any special momentum not really matter.
So if you think uair works well, and bair (works better), I'd start using bair.
Unless I didn't understand how he had the IASA frames and uair is faster due to IASA frames (which I don't think... I'm pretty sure I understood the IASA frames)
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Nope, Uair has no IASA frames. If Dair has no special properties, then Bair will be our best canceler.
Still, for 3 frames, I personally will keep using Uair, because accidentally using Bair on Mario would be tragic (well, not tragic, but my Mario should be surviving till about 150%-200% in most cases, and since Kirby isn't far behind, I'm happy.).
I react out of instinct when I'm hit, and do the aerial I'm used to doing, so if I change it, all my characters will start using that same aerial, and the only common momentum canceler my chars have is Uair.
Still, for 3 frames, I personally will keep using Uair, because accidentally using Bair on Mario would be tragic (well, not tragic, but my Mario should be surviving till about 150%-200% in most cases, and since Kirby isn't far behind, I'm happy.).
I react out of instinct when I'm hit, and do the aerial I'm used to doing, so if I change it, all my characters will start using that same aerial, and the only common momentum canceler my chars have is Uair.
I have good DI/SDI? :D
We've discussed all this before, though.
I remember. XD
Bair is indeed 4 frames better than Uair. I personally use Uair out of habit, because I play too much Captain Falcon, lol. I also use Dair sometimes, usually when I'm sent vertically. I suppose Bair would be better though.
I was actually watching a video Ripple made about DK survival tricks, and he said it was easier in some situations to use Dair instead of DK's Bair, because of the automatic fastfall. Take that as you will.
@Sniper: what makes Dair a good approach is that the very last hit often shieldpokes on the bottom of their shield, or they forget about it and drop their shield. Other than that, it's good if you don't use it predictably, as has been said.
I know I used to use it quite a bit, to decent effect.
We've discussed all this before, though.
I remember. XD
Bair is indeed 4 frames better than Uair. I personally use Uair out of habit, because I play too much Captain Falcon, lol. I also use Dair sometimes, usually when I'm sent vertically. I suppose Bair would be better though.
I was actually watching a video Ripple made about DK survival tricks, and he said it was easier in some situations to use Dair instead of DK's Bair, because of the automatic fastfall. Take that as you will.
@Sniper: what makes Dair a good approach is that the very last hit often shieldpokes on the bottom of their shield, or they forget about it and drop their shield. Other than that, it's good if you don't use it predictably, as has been said.
I know I used to use it quite a bit, to decent effect.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
If you keep mashing down it's exactly like the automatic fastfall. Some people just have issues momentum canceling so they take 'the easy way out'. There is a reason like people like M2K and Ally live forever. They know how to properly survive, even if it's "harder". I have yet to found anything in Brawl harder to do then anything in Melee with the exception of Sheik's DACUS which can be difficult if you don't 'claw' style it, even then the timing is strict. That's probably the most technically challenging thing in this game sadly.
I do nothing 'out of habit' and am able to use x aerial with y character because I know it's their best aerial.
I do nothing 'out of habit' and am able to use x aerial with y character because I know it's their best aerial.
RoflWafflez
Smash Apprentice
The aerial to use VARIES with each character. As SuSa has shown with the frame data, B-air is apparently the best one to use FOR KIRBY. This is different for every character.
As with Mario, i believe u-air is his fastest-ending aerial, so u would be using that to DI, so ur doin the right thing, Fromundaman lol.
Anywayz, thx for clearing that up SuSa, i was using u-air this whole time. Yea, 4 frames doesnt seem like alot, but it could be the difference between u surviving at ~140% or dying. If there's something better, use it.
As with Mario, i believe u-air is his fastest-ending aerial, so u would be using that to DI, so ur doin the right thing, Fromundaman lol.
Anywayz, thx for clearing that up SuSa, i was using u-air this whole time. Yea, 4 frames doesnt seem like alot, but it could be the difference between u surviving at ~140% or dying. If there's something better, use it.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Meh, I dunno... Standing Flight of the Ganon (where you FH>AD>FoG or Aerial>DJ>FoG), Draconic Reversal/other pseudo-wavedash techniques, and ICs in general are all petty technically demanding. I've never managed Squirtle's DACUS either, but that might just be me.
Still... You're right that it's nowhere like Melee. However, they are different games. If you want more technical stuff, play in melee tournaments. If you want a more defensive game that relies more on ****ing with your opponent's head, play Brawl.
SuSa
Banned via Administration
My name is SuSa for a reason. I've started to plank and camp in tournaments. And sometimes in friendlies for the lulz.
Shut Up = Stop *****ing/moaning about it
Suicide Already = You should just kill yourself now and end the misery.
@Roflwafflez
They were saying they use uair because it's better for their other character as well and they don't want to make a mistake.
I'm glad you guys have frame data. I've been mixing it up between uair and bair and couldn't see much of a difference. (Due to it being small.... lol) but good to know bair is better.
Shut Up = Stop *****ing/moaning about it
Suicide Already = You should just kill yourself now and end the misery.
@Roflwafflez
They were saying they use uair because it's better for their other character as well and they don't want to make a mistake.
I'm glad you guys have frame data. I've been mixing it up between uair and bair and couldn't see much of a difference. (Due to it being small.... lol) but good to know bair is better.
RoflWafflez
Smash Apprentice
Just curious, but as u perform the b-air when u are launched, u would use the c-stick to do it, right? Cuz if u hold back and press A, wouldnt u be DIing towards death that way? I mean ur holding in the direction Of the killzone, it doesnt make logical sense to me. So c-stick it is? (while mashing down of course)
SuSa
Banned via Administration
Haven't done testing. DI is only the last frames of hitstun, and I'm not sure if Aerial Drifting plays such a huge role that not c-sticking the aerial is bad.
But until I do that testing - c-stick it.
But until I do that testing - c-stick it.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I use the cstick, because it's easier to do down with the control stick then go control stick left/right to mashing down. HOWEVER, unless you know in advance that you're going to get launched offstage and input the bair at some weird timing, the leftward input doesn't do anything because the last time you can DI is during histun before you start moving, which is, by definition, a time you cannot use your bair.
Edit: spent too much time on post and got ninja
RoflWafflez
Smash Apprentice
Got it. I'll stick to c-stick. It's my first instinct anyway =/
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
Kirby Seppuku
Yeah.... this is one of those things where I thought of something I've never heard of before, but it just kind of seems obvious.
Basically, it's a new (?) form of kirby suicide. Now, as I said, this seems like something obvious, but I honestly don't see how it wouldn't be effective...
This is best used when your opponent is low off the stage and close to it, if they have a very limited and generally predictable (and preferably not too fast) recovery in that situation (Ganon, Link, CF, Diddy, Mario, Samus, The spacies, Luigi, Pit, PT, Peach, Lucario, Ness, Lucas). Basically, when your opponent is in such a position, simply use your up-b off the stage/shift it off the stage, to drag your opponent down for a suicide KO.
This could also work if you just get them up off the stage, but it's much more risky, because they have many more options there, and could air dodge or DI differently. It's only really good for when their in a tough recovery spot, because if they DI odd or air dodge while recovering low, and they are one of those listed above, they will likely fail recovery even if they do successfully evade it.
I have dubbed this "Kirby Seppuku".
I'd imagine this to be risky in general, but the blade's transcendent priority and quick falling speed make it a fun and useful option for last-stock KOs. I'd especially suggest using it in a difficult game where you have massive percentage and two stocks, and your opponent has one stock and low %. That's usually the case for all suicide moves, but I feel that considering the risk of this one, it should really only be used in such dire situations.
What do you think?
Yeah.... this is one of those things where I thought of something I've never heard of before, but it just kind of seems obvious.
Basically, it's a new (?) form of kirby suicide. Now, as I said, this seems like something obvious, but I honestly don't see how it wouldn't be effective...
This is best used when your opponent is low off the stage and close to it, if they have a very limited and generally predictable (and preferably not too fast) recovery in that situation (Ganon, Link, CF, Diddy, Mario, Samus, The spacies, Luigi, Pit, PT, Peach, Lucario, Ness, Lucas). Basically, when your opponent is in such a position, simply use your up-b off the stage/shift it off the stage, to drag your opponent down for a suicide KO.
This could also work if you just get them up off the stage, but it's much more risky, because they have many more options there, and could air dodge or DI differently. It's only really good for when their in a tough recovery spot, because if they DI odd or air dodge while recovering low, and they are one of those listed above, they will likely fail recovery even if they do successfully evade it.
I have dubbed this "Kirby Seppuku".
I'd imagine this to be risky in general, but the blade's transcendent priority and quick falling speed make it a fun and useful option for last-stock KOs. I'd especially suggest using it in a difficult game where you have massive percentage and two stocks, and your opponent has one stock and low %. That's usually the case for all suicide moves, but I feel that considering the risk of this one, it should really only be used in such dire situations.
What do you think?
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
I think Gonzo had a thread on this a while back, except that you time it so that you spike and they hit you out of FC so you recover back to safety. He called it the pseudo-cide (spike? I don't remember off hand). Some of the characters you mentioned (pit in particular comes to mind) should just be d-aired for simplicity sake, not to mention it is safer if you screw up. Good try, though.
ThreeSided
Smash Ace
Yeah, I figured about as much. Felt it was worth mentioning though.
I think Gonzo had a thread on this a while back, except that you time it so that you spike and they hit you out of FC so you recover back to safety. He called it the pseudo-cide (spike? I don't remember off hand). Some of the characters you mentioned (pit in particular comes to mind) should just be d-aired for simplicity sake, not to mention it is safer if you screw up. Good try, though.
I'm sad I don't get to use the name now though. =(
EDIT:
I have a question now!!!! When I gonzo combo certain (usually lighter/floatier) characters or characters at slightly high percentages, often the Uair doesn't connect on the second (or even first) throw. Usually I'll just chase with a hop>fair follow up, but sometimes the characters are weird, and they wont get hit by that either, like they're right between where my Uair and Fair would hit. What do you guys do in this situation?
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Who is it against that you can't connect the uair withO_o? To my knowledge, only sheik can not get hit by the uair without doing anything. If you're in that position, you could try for a jump->fair, I guess.