fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Now I'm not in charge of this thing, but I'm pretty sure that everything in that post was a given and already going to be how it worked, regardless of the system used.
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KGD - The Kewkky Thread! - Kirby's Wasteland: Dead Social
- Thread starter Labernash
- Start date
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
I'm glad you think I'm awesome. I actually disliked you a lot before you started trolling. I saw the AiB boards, the MLG boards, and a handful of your other posts around here and realized that you're incredibly bad for Kirby. You're like a virus. You post incorrect MU info on the other boards, and of all the posts I've ever read of you, I can fit any in two categories: Incorrect or common sense. And neither are worth the space on the page I have to scroll through to see a good post.
ASIDE FROM THAT, the stuff you posted about the PR is in the 'common sense' category but I'll give you credit for at least moving in the right direction.
I have something a bit more substantial than definitions.
I have a method to give each region an individual 'weight', and am experimenting with a way to apply that to how results from tournaments influence a Kirby's 'tier position'.
I'll post when I've tested it.
ASIDE FROM THAT, the stuff you posted about the PR is in the 'common sense' category but I'll give you credit for at least moving in the right direction.
I have something a bit more substantial than definitions.
I have a method to give each region an individual 'weight', and am experimenting with a way to apply that to how results from tournaments influence a Kirby's 'tier position'.
I'll post when I've tested it.
Differences in match-up info aside, thanks for the input. I'm looking forward to the Weighted ratios you're working on for the Regions, and I think by everyone's combined efforts things will move along nicely!
I just want to inquire a bit further on the tournament classification rankings since I wasn't aware of where it was already brought up (I don't have a lot of time to read every post here). Are you saying that the size of the tournament will have an impact on the overall placement of a player within the rankings and will just be a quantitative consideration? Because I'm suggesting that the size of a tournament effectively puts a cap on rankings. I'd like to kindly request a link to the discussion that you're referring to.
For example:
Player A attends all the tournaments within his area and travels out of town for large Regionals.
Player B only attends tournaments near him which are not very large.
Player C never attends in-person tournaments, but is an active Ladder player.
The suggested rankings would look like this:
National Rankings
1) Chudat
2) etc.
3) etc...
Regional
1) Player A
2) etc.
3) etc...
Statewide
1) Player A
2) etc.
3) etc...
Local
1) Player A
2) Player B
3) etc...
Online
1) Player C
2) etc.
3) etc...
I just want to inquire a bit further on the tournament classification rankings since I wasn't aware of where it was already brought up (I don't have a lot of time to read every post here). Are you saying that the size of the tournament will have an impact on the overall placement of a player within the rankings and will just be a quantitative consideration? Because I'm suggesting that the size of a tournament effectively puts a cap on rankings. I'd like to kindly request a link to the discussion that you're referring to.
For example:
Player A attends all the tournaments within his area and travels out of town for large Regionals.
Player B only attends tournaments near him which are not very large.
Player C never attends in-person tournaments, but is an active Ladder player.
The suggested rankings would look like this:
National Rankings
1) Chudat
2) etc.
3) etc...
Regional
1) Player A
2) etc.
3) etc...
Statewide
1) Player A
2) etc.
3) etc...
Local
1) Player A
2) Player B
3) etc...
Online
1) Player C
2) etc.
3) etc...
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Ah, I guess I misunderstood you, but then I don't think that's a good idea, since national players do attend locals, regionals, etc, and sometimes vice versa.
For example, I've probably attended no more than 20 tournaments in the last year, but only about 5-6 have been locals. At those locals though, our top 4 were dominated by national level players. It seems redundant and grossly inaccurate to list them separately (Regions with less national players would dominate the regional and local sections despite probably not being good enough to deserve it.)
A good example of this would be comparing how badly I place at my region, then comparing it to my placement when I attended an OoS local in a place with I hesitate to say a weaker scene (Reason I say I hesitate is because it was in FL, and while they definitely have better top level players, the rest of their scene is inferior. Basically, they have a few great players and not many good ones, whereas my region has (arguably) fewer top level players, but the majority of the scene is still good.).
Your system would actually make playing in a tougher region make the person look worse.
For example, I've probably attended no more than 20 tournaments in the last year, but only about 5-6 have been locals. At those locals though, our top 4 were dominated by national level players. It seems redundant and grossly inaccurate to list them separately (Regions with less national players would dominate the regional and local sections despite probably not being good enough to deserve it.)
A good example of this would be comparing how badly I place at my region, then comparing it to my placement when I attended an OoS local in a place with I hesitate to say a weaker scene (Reason I say I hesitate is because it was in FL, and while they definitely have better top level players, the rest of their scene is inferior. Basically, they have a few great players and not many good ones, whereas my region has (arguably) fewer top level players, but the majority of the scene is still good.).
Your system would actually make playing in a tougher region make the person look worse.
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
TKO needs to find a few good men to decide how to set up a tier'd PR.
This discussion is good, but when it comes down to it, a few few should make the decisions that everyone can live with. Obviously some people won't be satisfied but if the system works, then gotta go with what works.
To give people a general idea of what I'll propose as a method for this Tier'd PR, I'll outline a few points:
Some regions are harder than others. Some states are harder than others.
There are active states, and there are inactive states.
In active states, PRs are the cream of the crop and depict a region's intense factor.
Those are some of the things I'm working with to determine how to uniformly rate how well a Kirby is doing in their perspective regions.
More to come~
This discussion is good, but when it comes down to it, a few few should make the decisions that everyone can live with. Obviously some people won't be satisfied but if the system works, then gotta go with what works.
To give people a general idea of what I'll propose as a method for this Tier'd PR, I'll outline a few points:
Some regions are harder than others. Some states are harder than others.
There are active states, and there are inactive states.
In active states, PRs are the cream of the crop and depict a region's intense factor.
Those are some of the things I'm working with to determine how to uniformly rate how well a Kirby is doing in their perspective regions.
More to come~
The Brawl Tourney Results/Global Power Rankings thread is being updated by Rajam as we speak. Dunno when he'll be done since he has to do 4 months' worth of work, but once he's finished, we can make a Kirby PR and base his opponents on where they stand in the global PR.
@TKbreezy
Follow me on Twitter!
Well as far as a few good men go Thats an easy choice
from The EC
Me
Possibly Rapture
From the MW
Jowii
Fromundaman Possibly
From the WC
......
there aren't any WC kirbies that I think would be any benefit to the PR that actually post here.
from the south we could possibly get george or one of the Texas kirbies between ME going to NC and GA a lot and the MW being able to go to Texas I think we got that covered also
Kappy Might be a good Panelist also.
from The EC
Me
Possibly Rapture
From the MW
Jowii
Fromundaman Possibly
From the WC
......
there aren't any WC kirbies that I think would be any benefit to the PR that actually post here.
from the south we could possibly get george or one of the Texas kirbies between ME going to NC and GA a lot and the MW being able to go to Texas I think we got that covered also
Kappy Might be a good Panelist also.
Tiersie
Smash Ace
Nothing against the guy, but why in hell would Rapture be a panelist. He just got to the boards 2 days ago and doesn't seem to know much about the kirby's except the obvious ones...
Also I must agree with Jowii: T1mmy you actually didn't post anything remotely new. Also I don't think wifi players deserve to be ranked.
Also I must agree with Jowii: T1mmy you actually didn't post anything remotely new. Also I don't think wifi players deserve to be ranked.
@TKbreezy
Follow me on Twitter!
because I could see rapture being unbaised but then again I definitely said possibly...Jowii and myself are the only ones that I know are on 100%...lol
@TKbreezy
Follow me on Twitter!
Kewwky would be the PR panelist...lol
Boricua Panelist for anone who thought PR meant Power rankings and not Puerto rico.
Boricua Panelist for anone who thought PR meant Power rankings and not Puerto rico.
Nah, you guys can put me anywhere you want and I'd be okay with it. I'm also kinda busy recently, what with leaving for the Navy in less than a month.
@TKbreezy
Follow me on Twitter!
aight welp Kewkky is official Blue tier because he is in the navy Imo.
Oh, but did you see the part that mentioned players who attend tournaments of different sizes get ranked in each category? It encourages players to attend larger tournaments as well as the tournaments in their area.
A good point about Regions with stronger/weaker players affecting rankings. This is why I said this was a start and can be refined and updated as we go. JoWii already has mentioned ranking Regions with modifiers, and I'm sure more ideas will come along.
Thanks for working on the Region/State modifiers. It's a great idea and I can't wait to see how it works.
It's there as an option. I don't really think anyone is interested in ranking online play, so it could probably be overlooked.
The input from everyone has been great. It looks like everyone has a lot to contribute.
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
My method to judge state intensity:
example:
Louisiana's PR
1. Lee Martin, 3
2. Hyro, 120
3. Jnig, 144
4. Cyphus, 237
5. Ran Iji, 237
6. FakeGeorge, 237
7. R0ni, 237
8. Jiovanni, 237
9. Arcadia, 237
10. ChKn, 237
Each number represents where each player is on Rajam's results ranking with any player not in the top 5% having a base score of 237.
(3+120+144+(237*7))/10 = 192.6
192.6 is Louisiana's "intense factor". 'IF' can be anywhere from 5.5- 237 with smaller numbers meaning a higher intense level.
Once you have a state's IF, you add all the states in your region up and average those to get your region's IF
This is how we can determine which region is harder/easier without adding bias through opinion. This method can be applied to state/locals by using a state's IF against a Kirby's placing, regionals by using regIF against a Kirby's placings, and nationals by averaging all regIFs in attendance (only regions with PR members in attendance) against a Kirby's placings.
Edit: When I say Kirby's placings, I mean win/loss or some other math based calculation because imo what place you make in a tournament isn't accurate because of byes and such.
I've done this for all the states and regions against Rajam's current list and it accurately rates states and regions from strongest to weakest so the method is solid afaik. Once the new list comes out I can re-do it if everyone thinks this method is suitable. If not, like I said, it's just a suggestion.
example:
Louisiana's PR
1. Lee Martin, 3
2. Hyro, 120
3. Jnig, 144
4. Cyphus, 237
5. Ran Iji, 237
6. FakeGeorge, 237
7. R0ni, 237
8. Jiovanni, 237
9. Arcadia, 237
10. ChKn, 237
Each number represents where each player is on Rajam's results ranking with any player not in the top 5% having a base score of 237.
(3+120+144+(237*7))/10 = 192.6
192.6 is Louisiana's "intense factor". 'IF' can be anywhere from 5.5- 237 with smaller numbers meaning a higher intense level.
Once you have a state's IF, you add all the states in your region up and average those to get your region's IF
This is how we can determine which region is harder/easier without adding bias through opinion. This method can be applied to state/locals by using a state's IF against a Kirby's placing, regionals by using regIF against a Kirby's placings, and nationals by averaging all regIFs in attendance (only regions with PR members in attendance) against a Kirby's placings.
Edit: When I say Kirby's placings, I mean win/loss or some other math based calculation because imo what place you make in a tournament isn't accurate because of byes and such.
I've done this for all the states and regions against Rajam's current list and it accurately rates states and regions from strongest to weakest so the method is solid afaik. Once the new list comes out I can re-do it if everyone thinks this method is suitable. If not, like I said, it's just a suggestion.
@TKbreezy
Follow me on Twitter!
^f**king brilliant
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
D'awwwwh, thank ya.
Right now I'm trying to figure a good way to use it against placings, but it's just a bunch of testing in multiple regions against mutiple tournaments to figure one out.
I'm open to suggestions, lackeys, or questions.
Right now I'm trying to figure a good way to use it against placings, but it's just a bunch of testing in multiple regions against mutiple tournaments to figure one out.
I'm open to suggestions, lackeys, or questions.
We gotta wat til Rajam finishes updating his rankings though. He's been in the process for quite a while (and finally told the public). So until then, a good idea is to start gathering tourneys and PR's, then organizing them in a post somewhere (tourneys here, PR's there... Easy to find when needed) so that when Rajam's list is updated, it's just a matter of getting a calculator and getting the list ready.
Triple R
Smash Lord
Hmmmm seems to make sense.
I think I'd have to see it in practice or an example to be sure I get it.
I think I'd have to see it in practice or an example to be sure I get it.
I would like to point out that "IntensityFactor" is being renamed to "RaptureFactor" on the request of being more accurate.
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
Two steps ahead of you Kewk ;3
Smashboards has a list of any PR listed, US or otherwise, and I have that.
You have graciously made a thread for tournaments with Kirbies in attendance so that's another step covered.
It's just a matter of waiting for Rajam to update.
It all sorta just falls into place. XD
Smashboards has a list of any PR listed, US or otherwise, and I have that.
You have graciously made a thread for tournaments with Kirbies in attendance so that's another step covered.
It's just a matter of waiting for Rajam to update.
It all sorta just falls into place. XD
Wow, great work there JoWii. It looks like a good amount of thought and research went into that.
Is there a way you can figure in the influence from nearby areas? The states on East Coast are closer together than on the West, for instance, so they can have significant interstate travel. I know the Indiana players told me that they play with Chicago the last time I was there (players from Michigan too). Likewise SoCal gets players from Tijuana Mexico, and NW gets players from W-Canada.
I'm also wondering if Rajam's list would be best as a starting point, because it's scope is more broad than deep. That is to say, it doesn't include tournaments that fall off the radar (such as those not following the BBR-RC ruleset, those not specifically added to his thread, or those failing to meet a number of requirements).
Is it possible to develop this into a "Regional Weight"?
Is there a way you can figure in the influence from nearby areas? The states on East Coast are closer together than on the West, for instance, so they can have significant interstate travel. I know the Indiana players told me that they play with Chicago the last time I was there (players from Michigan too). Likewise SoCal gets players from Tijuana Mexico, and NW gets players from W-Canada.
I'm also wondering if Rajam's list would be best as a starting point, because it's scope is more broad than deep. That is to say, it doesn't include tournaments that fall off the radar (such as those not following the BBR-RC ruleset, those not specifically added to his thread, or those failing to meet a number of requirements).
Is it possible to develop this into a "Regional Weight"?
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
Rajam's list suits the needs because PRs are the best of a state's best, and Rajam's list shows a top5% which means your state's PR is judged against a pretty harsh measure; elites judged by an elite measure, you could say.
It's also suitable because it doesn't include the non-uniform things (nonBBRC tournaments) and doesn't include anything but the top level tournaments (which is what you want when determining 'iF' since that's a depiction of your state/region's strength on a national scale).
All decisions made leading up to my proposal where simply judgement calls. You need a 'base level' to start from (Rajam's list), and you need a base level on which to judge PRs (Rajam's top5%).
Edit: If a state tournament has OoS attendance, add all stateIFs and average the total and it's basically the same as a regular stateIF (except you're including the other state's ;3)
It's also suitable because it doesn't include the non-uniform things (nonBBRC tournaments) and doesn't include anything but the top level tournaments (which is what you want when determining 'iF' since that's a depiction of your state/region's strength on a national scale).
All decisions made leading up to my proposal where simply judgement calls. You need a 'base level' to start from (Rajam's list), and you need a base level on which to judge PRs (Rajam's top5%).
Edit: If a state tournament has OoS attendance, add all stateIFs and average the total and it's basically the same as a regular stateIF (except you're including the other state's ;3)
I think this works out really well. Just like you said, we need a base level to start with and I think averaging in OoS attendance would factor into it. So, if I'm not mistaken, Kirby players should make sure to get their tournaments sent into Rajam to help establish their state's IF?
Oh, one more question I just thought of: it's the opposite of OoS player(s) showing up to a tournament. What if the player to be ranked travels OoS for a tournament instead?
Oh, one more question I just thought of: it's the opposite of OoS player(s) showing up to a tournament. What if the player to be ranked travels OoS for a tournament instead?
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
Same concept. It's not predicated on where you're from, just where you are. If I attend a TX tournament, my placing will be factored against TX average unless Hylian or Future comes with me, in which case it'd be TX/MO. If it's region base like WHOBO, it'd be SW factored against my placing.
Right now I'm still working out the kinks so as problems arise I'm adjusting this. Right now I'm in the testing stages to see how this work out and if it'll give accurate readings for such situations.
Feel free to send in tournaments to Rajam, if you think he'll consider them lol.
Hyro with that namesearch. I see you viewing the thread!
Right now I'm still working out the kinks so as problems arise I'm adjusting this. Right now I'm in the testing stages to see how this work out and if it'll give accurate readings for such situations.
Feel free to send in tournaments to Rajam, if you think he'll consider them lol.
Hyro with that namesearch. I see you viewing the thread!
I just spent a good 2 hours updating the tourney results thread, putting players in alphabetical order, looking for their results' threads in SWF/AiB and linking them all in the OP, and adding Ling Ling. Only guy left to add is MogX, and I'm gonna go do that right now (if I find any results)
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
I'm a ****ing genius!
I'll be posting something tonight or by morning.
I'll be posting something tonight or by morning.
MikeKirby
OTL Winrar
*does the JoWii Slide in celebration of JoWii's epiphany*
Just got all of MogX's SWF results (besides his only 2009 one in Winter Game Fest 4), and I have to say... They are very sub-par. :|
Where are his good tourney results? Is he just hyped up?
(by the way, I stickied the thread because it's a pretty important topic, and always up-to-date)
Where are his good tourney results? Is he just hyped up?
(by the way, I stickied the thread because it's a pretty important topic, and always up-to-date)
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
Kewkky, after the Tier'd PR stuff is done, we can easily see who the top 5 Kirbies are.
Yep, I already made a post in the "Top 5 PR of Each Character" thread saying that we're working on an accurate PR list, and that theirs is wrong.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Hey! I get a snowday and do homework for one day to find that you guys are making radical decisions without me. Not cool.
As far as I can tell, this system still needs a formula. As I'm one of two people who expressed interest in it...dibs!
I'm surprised no one thought combining all the sizes of tourneys for a big measurement was a good idea. Nationals would obviously still be weighted more highly than other classes of tournament, and so on.
The PR should be combined with Kewkky's tourney results thread. That makes the most sense.
As far as I can tell, this system still needs a formula. As I'm one of two people who expressed interest in it...dibs!
I'm surprised no one thought combining all the sizes of tourneys for a big measurement was a good idea. Nationals would obviously still be weighted more highly than other classes of tournament, and so on.
The PR should be combined with Kewkky's tourney results thread. That makes the most sense.
I'm feeling pretty useful recently! Updating the Tourney Results thread ASAP all the time, fixing the stickies, doing the MU Advice thread, and now uploading videos for my community to my YouTube account. Also the same ol' mod/BBR stuff. Huzzah!
I hope that when I leave, a very responsible Kirby player can come forward and take care of those threads for me. I'll probably be back after boot camp, but since I'll have a full-time job after military school, don't think I'll be as active then.
I hope that when I leave, a very responsible Kirby player can come forward and take care of those threads for me. I'll probably be back after boot camp, but since I'll have a full-time job after military school, don't think I'll be as active then.
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
VICTORY~!
I've found a way to figure out what placement AND win-loss mean in a 32man bracket AND how that factors against what state you're in, and what region you're in.
Alright.
So, there are 10 possible placings in a 32man bracket (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 13th, 17th and 25th). There are 16 different win-loss records (technically there are 40~ because there are 40~ different ways to get to the different placings but there are only 16 different w-l records).
I gave each of the possible placings a point value and each of the different win-loss records a point value and added the two to get a number for what each place+win/loss record actually counts as. Here's a few examples:
1st place, win-loss record of 6-0 = 16
3rd place, win-loss record of 4-2 = 9.3
4th place, win-loss record of 4-2 = 8.3
It works surprisingly well since the highest win-loss record of one place is still lower than the next higher placing with the lowest win-loss record.
Now there's probably a few ways we can factor in stateIF and regIF, and the first thing I thought was:
(((placementValue+winLossValue)/stateIF)*100)X
100 is just to change the number from a decimal to a whole number.
X is just a place-holder until I can figure out the math behind a higher-man bracket (48,64,etc.).
That's what I have so far. It'll work for state tournaments and when I figure out how to work in the higher brackets, it'll work for regionals and nationals.
Also, I haven't done the testing on tournaments with byes but I felt it'd be nice to show what I have so far.
I've found a way to figure out what placement AND win-loss mean in a 32man bracket AND how that factors against what state you're in, and what region you're in.
Alright.
So, there are 10 possible placings in a 32man bracket (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th, 13th, 17th and 25th). There are 16 different win-loss records (technically there are 40~ because there are 40~ different ways to get to the different placings but there are only 16 different w-l records).
I gave each of the possible placings a point value and each of the different win-loss records a point value and added the two to get a number for what each place+win/loss record actually counts as. Here's a few examples:
1st place, win-loss record of 6-0 = 16
3rd place, win-loss record of 4-2 = 9.3
4th place, win-loss record of 4-2 = 8.3
It works surprisingly well since the highest win-loss record of one place is still lower than the next higher placing with the lowest win-loss record.
Now there's probably a few ways we can factor in stateIF and regIF, and the first thing I thought was:
(((placementValue+winLossValue)/stateIF)*100)X
100 is just to change the number from a decimal to a whole number.
X is just a place-holder until I can figure out the math behind a higher-man bracket (48,64,etc.).
That's what I have so far. It'll work for state tournaments and when I figure out how to work in the higher brackets, it'll work for regionals and nationals.
Also, I haven't done the testing on tournaments with byes but I felt it'd be nice to show what I have so far.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Just want to say, this sounds like a great idea.
This will be probably the one time I will actually embrace a character PR/list idea if only because this is the most effective/least biased suggestion I have ever seen.
This will be probably the one time I will actually embrace a character PR/list idea if only because this is the most effective/least biased suggestion I have ever seen.
SupaSairentoZ7℠
Smash Hero
I must say I like that idea.
jiovanni007
Smash Ace
The Louisiana PR is outdated so make sure you check on that if you're still using PRs in conjunction with Rajam's thing. Why'd you randomly use Louisiana's PR? No one cares about anyone from Louisiana except for Lee, JNig, or Hyro. Soon to be me =)
@TKbreezy
Follow me on Twitter!
Well we will start checking on your tourney results and hopefully brackets get posted so we can see your win loss
also I can't be on here nearly as much because I actually have work to do at work now....lol but this sundays Kirby chat will definitely need to pop off..possibly even a call?
also I can't be on here nearly as much because I actually have work to do at work now....lol but this sundays Kirby chat will definitely need to pop off..possibly even a call?