KGD - The Kewkky Thread! - Kirby's Wasteland: Dead Social

[Zwarm]

If Kirby is ever played with a items on, make sure you get a homerun bat, he HUPs before he swings. No way to cancel it sadly, but the sacred hup is heard nonetheless.

 

[Tiersie]

Hi Shao =D

 

[@TKbreezy]

Aight some news

1. I'm going to make the Kirby PR thread (like the fox PR thread)

it will be top 10

Chu might have quit soooooooooooooooo we might need to check on that.

I need to figure out how to put kewwky on there without being baised because he's not in the US.

 

[Kewkky]

Aight some news

1. I'm going to make the Kirby PR thread (like the fox PR thread)

it will be top 10

Chu might have quit soooooooooooooooo we might need to check on that.

I need to figure out how to put kewwky on there without being baised because he's not in the US.

Well without bias, it would mean tourney results? :\

If not then oh well, you can just make a small note below saying "Kirbies not in US but belong in PR: Kewkky, etc etc etc".

 

[@TKbreezy]

I know but you place so high in your tournaments but at the same time nobody ever gets to play those characters but you

so who's to say that an american kirby wouldn't come over there and **** harder than you?

but at the same time we could go over there and get ***** and it was be a true testament of your skill

but I will use the second Idea...until you come to another American tourney then I will use those results.

 

[jiovanni007]

Aight some news

1. I'm going to make the Kirby PR thread (like the fox PR thread)

it will be top 10

Chu might have quit soooooooooooooooo we might need to check on that.

I need to figure out how to put kewwky on there without being baised because he's not in the US.

wait, there are 10 Kirbies? Go for it I say. Also, wtf is hup canceling? I thought it was just a joke but then I saw it in a matchup post. Inform me.

 

[@TKbreezy]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12091214#post12091214

done.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Well, I've always been a fan of PRs, but I'm not a fan of panel based ones; only results based ones. With that said, those can also be skewed because someone can get further and just have had an easier bracket, or someone could just be going to regionals vs someone only going to locals (harder vs easier tournament). I've done a lot of research viewing everyone's PRs and experimenting with methods, and there are a handful that are somewhat viable, but honestly, none are completely accurate.

I'm for a PR, but I'm for the Kirbies deciding what kind of PR it is, and some effort and research being thrown into it.

 

[@TKbreezy]

Then we can get win and loss records also...I mean

if I got 7th in a tournament but didnt be anyone notable

but then you get 9th in a larger tournament and beat like Fizzle boy and MJG or something

obviously you would be higher than me

and its pretty much results based...I'm only going off what people bring to me+ a little bit of judgement of skill on the people they beat/lost to.

 

[Kappy]

Why don't you guys do the PR based on wins and losses, then, instead of placings/panelists? LOL

EDIT: Ninja'd by TKO. LOL

 

[Sage JoWii]

Because even win/loss PRs aren't fully accurate. If I go 4/2 and beat no names but place 9th, and someone went 3/2 and beat someone good, but had a bye, and placed 9th, there's no accurate way to define who is better. Consistency over Peak? Same placings, different routes?

And if you have 'a lil judgement' it's TKO; TKO you mad biased. Don't act like you aren't man. I'm juss sayin' that there's an incomplete top 10, a flawed system, and it's already out in the open making it harder to repair.

It's my opinion, and I don't support the thread as is. My opinion is just that, an opinion, and my approval means little I'll assume, I don't care, so take it as you will.

 

[Kewkky]

That'd take far more time. Chances are that at big tourneys there's a top-level players and lots of high-level/mid-level players. Plus with the tourney results, it's not gonna be accurate until a lot of different results are tallied together and assuming lots of huge tourneys have lower-leveled players just isn't right.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Kewkky I didn't think you of all people would need me to tell you something.

You basically just said taking our time with something should be overlooked in favor of getting something out there, regardless of whether it's correct.

You're an idiot.

What is this, I don't even.

 

[Triple R]

Guys, guys, we can all be friends <3

I really don't know the best way to go about this. We already have a tourney results thread and can gauge how we think Kirbys are doing. This could be a place just to organize our thoughts about it. As long as everyone agrees/tries to not take things personally I don't see how this thread is harmful.

 

[Kewkky]

Kewkky I didn't think you of all people would need me to tell you something.

You basically just said taking our time with something should be overlooked in favor of getting something out there, regardless of whether it's correct.

You're an idiot.

What is this, I don't even.

I didn't even say I favored anything. From what I've posted anywhere, I haven't said whether a Kirby PR is a good idea or not. I'm just going along for the ride to see how it turns out. :|

 

[@TKbreezy]

I'm not biased wtf?

I hope you don't mean like region pride or some ****

I hate my region and even with my having the best kirby doesnt mean I'd say he is the best forever

I don't even like chu but I recognize skill when I see it.

if it turns out bad then you are right and i'm dumb and i won't make threads ever again on the kirby boards...chill out.

 

[Kappy]

Because even win/loss PRs aren't fully accurate. If I go 4/2 and beat no names but place 9th, and someone went 3/2 and beat someone good, but had a bye, and placed 9th, there's no accurate way to define who is better. Consistency over Peak? Same placings, different routes?

Spoiler

Based on that singular tournament, clearly the one who beat the good player is better than the one who only beat scrubs and had an easy bracket. LOL.

Consistency should be calculated by placings (IE, a point value for placings based on some weird-*** function that would give you the amount of points based on the # of entrants and your placing ((You could even go farther and calculate how each tournament is worth based on whether it's local, regional, or national level))), and should span somewhere around the most recent 5-6 tournaments said player attended.

Once you calculate that, make another system that gives you points based on wins against PR'd players (again, you can decide how much it's worth, and you could even take it farther and calculate how much PR's in every region (or state, even) should be worth). The tournaments used here should be the tourneys used in calculating consistency.

Add up what you get for that player from both calculations, and pit him against what everyone else has, and there's your PR. While this can be inaccurate (because nothing is perfect), what this method does is tell you how consistent someone is and if they beat notable players.

At the most basic level:

If I placed 9th five times beating no notable players, and Triple R placed 9th five times but beat PR'd players in his state or OoS, then he would be higher than me.

It would take a long time, it would require a lot of research and math, but if you guys were able to do this I can guarantee the PR would be pretty accurate. And really, it's not even that hard -- especially if one of you can program or can make a decent Excel Spreadsheet. LOL.

And calculating how much each region or state is worth would be biased unless we all agreed upon their worth, so I wouldn't do that.

And I agree with Triple R the most!

 

[Sage JoWii]

Pure math based is closer to accurate then results based; It's also closer than win/loss based. But it's not gonna be exact, no PR can be.

I agree with RRR, if I'm interpreting correctly that we already have a tournament thread and that's a good place for gauging the top 10.

I agree with Kappy's math post.

 

[@TKbreezy]

well whos down to make a formula? I have excel and all that but I'm not an excel master (anymore) because I'm not in high school...lol

 

[Sage JoWii]

Steal the tournament results ranking thread formula ;D

 

[@TKbreezy]

I just looked in there. there is no formula but that is a good start as far as gauging skill...ummm Also I think Chu quit brawl (zak said something about that to me the other day) so Y.b.M. would def be the best kirby.

 

[Tiersie]

How are you going to deal with the amount of tournaments that people go to?
How would you go by beating PR'd people? (RRR might beat his state's #2 at one tournament, but Jowii might beat TX's number 7, there's a good chance jowii's win was harder in that context) I guess my question is: who is notable and how is this calculated?
Who is going to run the thread and all of its calculations? We can't even manage a full MU discussion right now; how are we going to get this together?
How will people's opinions play a part in the entirity of the PR?

 

[@TKbreezy]

well after talking to jowii I think i need to pick a UNBIASED panel first and then go from there

I would actually put jowii on it because he has good ideas but...he doesnt support it so dont see why he would join

suggestions for the panel?

 

[Kewkky]

How are you going to deal with the amount of tournaments that people go to?
How would you go by beating PR'd people? (RRR might beat his state's #2 at one tournament, but Jowii might beat TX's number 7, there's a good chance jowii's win was harder in that context) I guess my question is: who is notable and how is this calculated?
Who is going to run the thread and all of its calculations? We can't even manage a full MU discussion right now; how are we going to get this together?
How will people's opinions play a part in the entirity of the PR?

I would've suggested using the Brawl Tournament Rankings thread in the Tourney Results forum, but it hasn't been updated since september 30th... I'm gonna see if I can find out whatever happened to the people in charge of it.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Bout to get hit with a foot or more of snow soon after this freezing rain is done.

Edit: A Tier'd PR is the best option.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Um, I think I could develop a function for that. It could take into account not only the placings in which people get, but also the skill of the people they beat in a given tournament. The only problem is putting a number on the skill of opponents. Then that would churn out a graph for each player and I'm sure you could use the slopes to determine who's better.

Idk, I'm thinking calc stuff, sorry. But I could ask my math teacher to help me out if it's really needed.

Either way, the current PR thread is bad because I'm not on it. <3 TKO

 

[Sage JoWii]

Rap, you may have use yet; I knew there was a reason we kept you around.

 

[A1lion835]

I could be interested in making a function for this PR graph too. I like math, you know.

Edit: As a preliminary formula, (Te - P)/Tt seems like a minimal-effort reasonable-accuracy BS formula for just generating #'s for each person. Not at all what the final formula should look like though. We also need to make sure there are enough tournament results to actually make these PR statistically significant. If we don't have a bare minimum of 10+ results for each person, this formula won't work for obvious reasons. And tourneys should be dropped after, say, 6 months to make sure the PR is accurate.

(Te = Sum of entrants at each tourney, P = sum of placings at each tourney, Tt = total tourneys)

 

[vVv Rapture]

I could be interested in making a function for this PR graph too. I like math, you know.

Edit: As a preliminary formula, (Te - P)/Tt seems like a minimal-effort reasonable-accuracy BS formula for just generating #'s for each person. Not at all what the final formula should look like though. We also need to make sure there are enough tournament results to actually make these PR statistically significant. If we don't have a bare minimum of 10+ results for each person, this formula won't work for obvious reasons. And tourneys should be dropped after, say, 6 months to make sure the PR is accurate.

(Te = Sum of entrants at each tourney, P = sum of placings at each tourney, Tt = total tourneys)

Sort of what I was getting at.

 

[fromundaman]

well after talking to jowii I think i need to pick a UNBIASED panel first and then go from there

I would actually put jowii on it because he has good ideas but...he doesnt support it so dont see why he would join

suggestions for the panel?

There is no such thing as an unbiased party. The best way to make something unbiased is for whatever group deciding the weight of each region has equal representation from each region, and even then...

 

[Sage JoWii]

Uh, I think that's the way to have each person biased towards their own region ._.;

there's not really a thing as unbiased when there's a human element but I do believe you can get a 'least biased'.

 

[fromundaman]

Well right. I'm just saying if you get the 'least biased' from each region, it's better than having 4 'least biased' from the same region (Which would probably be MW in this case), since that way you always have someone with knowledge of whatever region a particular Kirby comes from.

Basically yeah, there would most likely be region bias, but that way it somewhat balances itself out, and hopefully discussions will have supporting evidence rather than guesses.

That being said, I am so tired right now that I'm not entirely sure if my post even makes sense... I'm off to bed and I'll reread this tomorrow.

 

[Sage JoWii]

Okay, I'm halfway through figuring out regionWeight.

Would people say a region consists of all the states in that region? Or just the active ones? That is of course only when considering how much weight a region should carry.

Like, the West Coast is considered Alaska, Hawaii, NorCal. and SoCal., Oregon, Washington, Nevada and Idaho. But if you look at it, only NorCal and SoCal actually have developed scenes with PRs and tournaments. When all the states, developed scenes or otherwise, are considered, WC is actually not that strong a region, but when you consider that most of the action takes place in the 'Cals, and drop the other states from consideration, than WC is somewhat strong in comparison to some of the other regions. Similar to FL in AtlanticSouth or the MW:E.

Btw, I still haven't slept from yesterday -__________-

 

[~Shao~]

For WC, I would possibly throw in Washington and Nevada, maybe Hawaii.


on another subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyuz4IB6Pbc

TOO EFFIN' GOOD

 

[Kewkky]

Hey, that's a pretty nice video. I didn't laugh, but it was DEFINITELY entertaining.

 

[t!MmY]

Hey guys! I just now dropped by to catch the discussion on how to best go about doing PRs.
(hold on a second... listening to Kirby Air Ride music... it's so cool!)

Okay, so here's some input from me.
I've handled a lot of PR stuff over the years and have done everything from panel to points as well as additional concepts. I'm going to bring some points up.

Panelist-based PRs usually turn into bias-based PRs, often with panelist patting themselves on the back.
Performance-based PRs... work in theory... but the amount of data and work involved is monumental.
Rank-based (1st, 2nd, 3rd... to last in a given bracket) produce iffy results for everyone except top 3 or those who place last.
Performance-based PRs motivate players to perform better.

What would be a hurdle for constructing a Kirby PR is that it has to span multiple Regions and thus would have varying standards set for each player depending on their Region. In other words, it could be easier to place higher in one Region with Kirby than in another. This could be due to player skill, tournament size, or easy-to-overlook nuances such as an area full of good Ice Climber players compared to one full of Captain Falcon mains.

I'll post more in a bit. Laterz!

 

[Kewkky]

I want to see what t!mmy has to say. Come on man, don't leave us hangin'!

 

[Sage JoWii]

God I hate when that guy posts.

If something happens involving the PR, I vote striking the record of anything T1mmy says on principle. Or keeping his stupidity to a bare minimum as far as influence.

/rage

Duh.

 

[fromundaman]

What? Did I just miss a massive amount of sarcasm?

 

[t!MmY]

Ha ha! You're an awesome guy JoWii, you don't mind stating your opinions and I respect that! I'm guessing you think of me as a big troll because of those silly posts I made not-too-long-ago, but if you look at my posting history you'll see I'm a fun-loving and good-natured guy. If you want to rage against me, that's fine, I still <3 you as much as all Kirby players.

Anyway, so here's what I was thinking:

We should rate players not only on performance, but also based on the tournaments they attend. This way, players who attend larger tournaments with better competition are rated higher than those who only attend local tournaments with lesser competition. But then we run into the quandary of how to rate tournametns, right? That's actually easier than it may seem since everybody already has a general idea of what makes up competitive brackets.

Here are the categories we can use:

Nationals
These are the HUGE tournaments everybody hears about with top players from around the nation (or world). Not only do the best players come to these tournaments, they generally have a large player-base of attendees in general with many characters represented by competent players. (examples would be Pound IV, Genesis, WHOBO, and MLG).

Regionals
The next level of tournaments are the large tournaments that have an entire Region showing up. A Region can span one or more states (depending on the size of the states), but usually get players from 4 to 6 hours away (by car). Regionals will have most, if not all, of the top players (PR) showing up as well as a large number of additional entrants. It is not uncommon for these tournaments to get high-level players coming from nearby Regions as well. Regions include: Atlantic North, Atlantic South, MW, SW, WC (NorCal, SoCal, NV), and Pacific NW.

Statewide
These tournaments generally draw in players from approximately 2 hours away or less (by car). While competition varies, statewide tournaments usually have top players in the state attending. These are the usual 'Monthlies' or 'Bi-Monthlies' seen hosted year-round and are the main source of tournaments that competitive players attend.

Locals
At the small-end of the scale are the local-sized tournaments whose target attendees are all within a city (or one side of a particularly large city). Some Out-of-Town travel is possible for larger Locals, but this size of tournament also covers any smallish tournament that is not Statewide, Regional, nor National.

Online/Wi-Fi
Though WFC can theoretically span the entire globe, online tournament records are considered a separate category for obvious reasons. Examples of online events include Ladder Rankings or Online Tournament results.

How This Works:
Okay, so to make sure everything works out is to keep things simple, at least to start with. Just go with what we know.

1) A player is ranked according to the largest tournament they've entered (National, Regional, Statewide, or Local). The better their placement within that tournament, the higher they rank - only the highest is taken into consideration to motivate players to attend more tournaments and place as high as they can.

2) Rankings will probably follow a formula of some sort, but to start with it shouldn't be too hard to eyeball the results posted to come to a preliminary conclusion.

3) Players can be ranked in any/all of the categories. This encourages players to attend larger tournaments and get ranked!

----

Side note:
This is great for Kewkky as it allows players from outside mainland USA to get in on the rankings!

Alright, let's discuss and get things rolling.