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Canada [Jul 26, 2014] B.C. Brawl Monthlies - Back in business, now featuring Smash 64! (Burnaby, BC)

Jason!

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2011
Messages
1,725
Location
BC, Canada
09/15/12 Brawl Attendance List *Updated*

Confirmed

Jason
Captain L
Firefly
Big D
Sniper6133 69% confirmed
KKOrange
Starwaffle
Daze
T- Block
Irisz
_GrapE_
Blue Yoshi 9% Confirmed

Unconfirmed

Genny ?
Skidd ?
Crisis ?
Kantrip?
Deap ?
Breez ?



** xX1337Sn1PeZaSsAsS1nXx ?

And anyone else that I missed please confirm
 

Asa

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
6,765
Location
Hawaii
One because it's different. Two I think it leaves more time for friendlies. Newer/shy players usually keep quiet about asking others for friendlies but if we finish early that leaves tons of time for people to open up and play everybody.
looool cuz it's different? that's ******** lol. it doesn't save any more time given the amount of ppl at this tournament. at a large tournametn? yeah it would. Like jj has said, there is a lot of time for friendlies at our tournaments lol.


also grape, bracket pools are 2/3 for every part of the bracket and grand finals are not played out, so it is faster than a normal bracket.

and robert, triple elimination sounds dumb and unfair for grand finals. you have to potentially win 3 sets in grand finals??? wtf
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
uhh... being "unfair" is not the issue. it's "fair" in that every player needs to lose three times to be eliminated. the player coming from winners would need three losses, just like any other player.

besides, not too familiar with how triple elimination would work, but some preliminary thought suggests that grand finals would be the player from winners (with zero losses) against the player from the first losers bracket (with one loss when in winners bracket, and who would have just defeated the champion of the second losers bracket), so the player from winners would have to win two sets, while the player from losers would have to win three.

what's crazy is that if you end up getting knocked into second losers bracket, you would have to win two sets against the champion of the first losers bracket to go on to grand finals, and you would then need to win three sets against the winners bracket champion to actually win the whole thing.

but it would still be "fair"
 

Alacion

Sunny skies
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
8,061
Location
Vancouver, BC
NNID
Alacion
3DS FC
0216-0918-5299
Eh I guess I'll stop suggesting stuff. I'll just keep to myself from now on and stop stressing over things that nobody else gives a damn about.
 

Blue Yoshi

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
How I intended it be done was, excluding finals (as exceptions occur there), everyone must lose 3 matches to be eliminated. This continues until we have a final person from winner's bracket, a final person from loser's bracket 1, and a final person from loser's bracket 2. The person from each loser's bracket face each other, where the one from the higher bracket needs to win 1 set, while the one from the lower bracket needs to win 2. Whoever comes out on top faces the person from the winner's bracket, while the one who doesn't ends up in 3rd.

For the Grand Finals, regardless of the amount of loses the person coming from loser's may have acquired, the person from loser's needs to win 2 sets, while the person from winner's needs to only win 1.

Yes, the person from Winner's bracket only needs 2 losses to be eliminated unlike everyone else, and if the person from loser's bracket 1 wins Loser's Finals without losing a set, he only needs 2 losses as well to be eliminated. However, having a 3 sets to 1 Grand Finals or 3 sets to 2 Grand Finals is either completely one-sided, or would take forever. So, for simplicity's sake, making it a 2 sets to 1 grand finals makes everything easier.

3 sets to 1 is a 3:1 ratio, 75%
3 sets to 2 is a 3:2 ratio, 60%
2 sets to 1 is a 2:1 ratio, 66.6%, close enough to the middle.



Another thing I thought of earlier today (after making this post) play this out until we have a final 4, and then do a bracket from there. The top 2 people from Winner's bracket (who face each other in a best of 3 set beforehand for seeding), and the final person from each loser's bracket move on to a finals bracket.

The top seed from winner's faces the player from the second loser's bracket while the bottom seed from winner's faces the player from the first loser's bracket, and the rest plays out like a standard double elimination bracket.




The reason I am so much in support of a triple elimination bracket over a double elimination bracket is because it is a much better way of placing the lower ranked players. Double elimination, anything past 5th (and sometimes including 5th) can be considered somewhat inaccurate, and the farther you go, the less accurate it is. Triple Elimination, the third bracket removes most of those inaccuracies. Meaning someone who had an easy bracket and got higher than he should have will go down one more time in the third bracket, while someone who had a terrible bracket (like Brandon that one tournament who had to face Drake then me, and was eliminated), has the third bracket to climb back up to a position that is more accurate of what they should have placed.

Almost every tournament, we all know who the top 3/4 people will be (not necessarily the order). Whether we do a double or triple elimination won't affect these people at all, as by that point, if you would have lost, you're at the end of the triple elimination bracket as it is, and you would play the same people you just lost to, and will likely lose again. However, for everyone else, you have a full entire bracket to play through. Any inaccuracies that have been made after the first two brackets will mostly be fixed in the third bracket.

Also, for Kev's arguments, everyone who would have gotten eliminated early in a double elimination bracket still have a third bracket that they can play through to try to raise their position. If you get sent there right away, you will likely play people at your skill level to begin with, and slowly progress harder. So it gives extra games to our lower level players, and lets them play serious do-or-die games against people closer to their skill level.



Essentially, I would prefer this so that it better ranks the lower placing players. If this was a major tournament with out-of-province people showing up, all we care about is who places at the top, and the eliminated people don't matter, so obviously a double elimination tournament would be better there. However, in a small local friendly tournament like this, we care equally about our higher seeded players as we do our lower seeded players (at least we should), and having that third bracket gives lower seeded players more games, and a chance to play serious games that they have more of a chance (or maybe a good chance) to win. Makes it more fun for them, while nobody on top is affected.


Another side effect is that it makes power rankings that much easier to make...

Anyways, I've got stuff to do. I'll be back later.
 

Blue Yoshi

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
4,410
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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
Well, it does get us closer to 9... ;)

Since about a year ago, I've used TIO and for the fun of it, made a puzzle out of it. I made a 8/16/32/64 man tournament, and either tried to make a double elimination bracket give the lowest rank people the highest score, or give the highest ranked people the lowest score (with the rule the higher ranked number, 1 being best rank, always beating the lower ranked number).

For a 8 man tournament, both gave this result:



1st: 1
2nd: 2
3rd: 5
4th: 3
5th: 6, 7
7th: 4, 8

My point is that this has obvious flaws. 4th got tied for last, 5th got 3rd...

I decided to see what would happen if a third bracket took place. This is what happened:

Round 1: 7 v 8, 4 v 6, 7 and 4 win

Round 2: 4 v 7, 4 wins

Round 3: 3 v 4, 3 wins

Final Round: 3 v 5, 3 wins.

The final result would end up being:

1st: 1
2nd: 2
3rd: 3
4th: 5
5th: 4
6th: 7
7th: 6, 8

Only 'flaw' is 4th and 5th getting reversed, as well as 6th and 7th being reversed, as compared to everything 3rd and worse is messed up.

I'm going to do this to both of the 16 man brackets I created as well, just to show the difference.



edit: slightly changed the 3rd bracket, as I made it wrong the first time. 4 is supposed to be against 6, while 8 is supposed to be against 7. Initially had it as 4 vs 7 and 8 vs 6.
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
solid stuff rob

it's simple bracket theory... double elimination will guarantee accurate rankings of the top two players, but no further. triple elimination will guarantee top three.

n-elimination will guarantee that the top n players are ranked accurately

under the assumption that the "better" player will always win over a lower ranked player, which of course isn't accurate
 

Captain L

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,423
Location
BC
If we have a low turnout, I would actually recommend a triple elimination bracket. I've been saying it partially as a joke in the past, but it actually does work, and people who get eliminated early in a double elimination bracket still have games left to play, and can raise their placement from it too. edit: also, no pools are needed.

Also, very late response, but for my old gen > new gen post, I missed several people because I was dead tired, just worked a long day at work, etc. Landon I did initially have in "mid gen", but removed that gen and meant to put him in old gen, but completely forgot about that and accidentally left him off. Islanders I forgot to mention include Caiden and Nic (and the other Vic people, don't know if I mentioned Max or Eric).

But who's this Jason guy you are referring to Dawson? Have I met him before? Can't be that good if I can't remember him... (lol jk I forgot him due to being tired).

And anyone else I forgot (including Kev) was because I was tired, and just wanted to finish the post and sleep. So just take that post as a "examples of old gen people, examples of new gen people" post.

And that post was intended to be "old gen at their prime" vs "new gen at their prime". Obviously if Brian and Clouderz shows up now, they won't place as well, but if they played as they did back then, they'd dominate. Not even DDD could stop old gen from winning (back in old gen, DDD was not invincible, and due to the time difference, his invincibility is unstable, thus making him beatable).

I still think that new gen in their prime could beat some of the top old gens in their time, because the entire metagame of BC brawl as a whole has not stopped advancing.

Point: Jake put up a fight against and beat clouderz back in his prime. Jake has also had an extra 2 years to improve, so if the new-Jake went back in time to play the old-clouderz, Jake would probably dominate
but then lose to Brian cause of R.O.B.

And a couple other BC smashers are still on par with new-Jake. You know who you are ;D














oooooooooh Caiden I was wanting to do a stream of me beating NES games using a DDR mat. But my stream setup is a potato :(
 

Blue Yoshi

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
4,410
Location
Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
editing this post to respond to landon and t-block, but for now...

CAIDEN, AT LEAST POST THE STREAM LINK OR SOMETHING >_> SO MUCH DISAPPOINT!!!

(translation in non-fakeangry-trolling: Could you post the link, pweaty pweese? *puppy eyes*)




Landon, I said that the post was 75% a troll post. I am well aware that if everyone showed up, Dawson would probably win. However, if you look past that, we had like 8 to 10 people who were all really good, and of whom could place in the top 5, with like 6 able to place in the top 3. Now, we have a definite top 3/4/5 (order not definite), then a huge gap to the next player. We had more "top" players back then that made every tournament more competitive. Ask people who made the PR. It was a pain back then for every position. Now, it's "here's the top 5, here's the next best 5".

Also, we had much more people attend monthlies on a regular basis. Attendance is much lower now. It never was "high", but it was never this low aside from one or two monthlies that didn't work for half the people for whatever reason.

Also, Victoria brawlers existed...



solid stuff rob

it's simple bracket theory... double elimination will guarantee accurate rankings of the top two players, but no further. triple elimination will guarantee top three.

n-elimination will guarantee that the top n players are ranked accurately

under the assumption that the "better" player will always win over a lower ranked player, which of course isn't accurate
I'll change my wording.

The numbers 1 through 8 are, given ideal circumstances, how each player would have placed on that day (therefore taking into account bad days, good days, etc). Therefore, had we done a tournament that made each player play each other player 999999999 times, added up the wins, and ranked the players, that is what the results would have been. In other words, on that day, 1 was the best, 2 was the second best, 8 was worst, etc. So it is fully possible that 5 was the best player, but was drunk, somehow cut his thumbs on the way to the tournament, broke up with his boyfriend the day before, etc. So yes, upsets do happen, and a lower seeded person will sometimes place higher than a higher seeded person. However, my entire point is that someone having a third bracket is that having the third bracket, any "mistakes" done in the double elimination bracket get reduced or removed in a third bracket. Someone who plays the top 2 people off the bat still has a chance to place well.

I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.
 

_GrapE_

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
1,457
Location
Within BC somewhere
twitch.tv/thisbedye

I'll be streaming at random times. Mostly running Pokemon games and/or Portal

Edit: I might stream tonight. If you follow it'll tell you when I stream
 

| Big D |

Smash Master
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
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Hinamizawa, BC
Ok I have one problem with triple elimination.

If I'm in GFs and people start timing me out. We'd be there until morning.

Also I like doubles and other various side events.

Triple elimination wouldn't be bad for 8 man tourneys but like 16 man tourneys gg.

Also if I time travelled to the clouderz era, I'd be their hero too.
 

Blue Yoshi

Smash Master
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Mar 3, 2008
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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
Grand finals does not change from normal grand finals. The player from the winner's bracket needs to win only 1 set, while the player from the loser's bracket needs to win 2 sets.

Also, pools are not needed, as long as seeding is done well.
 

Captain L

Smash Champion
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Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,423
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BC
but if we lose pools then someone can just go 0-3


a 16ish man tournament with triple elim could probably be okay with 4x4 man pools.




I kinda do want to try triple elim though
 

Captain L

Smash Champion
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Aug 15, 2009
Messages
2,423
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BC
or multiplied by 1.5




no matter how much discussion goes in though it will always go back to double elim on tournament day though. Also this reminds me, why did we do swiss for P:M...
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
2,213
Location
Vancouver, BC, Canada
or multiplied by 1.5




no matter how much discussion goes in though it will always go back to double elim on tournament day though. Also this reminds me, why did we do swiss for P:M...
It was just kinda thrown out as an idea and then Violence took over and made it happen, and it happened that way. Whatever, it was a small tournament and we got a ton of games in.

It won't be like that ever again though lol.
 

Asa

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
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Hawaii
Eh I guess I'll stop suggesting stuff. I'll just keep to myself from now on and stop stressing over things that nobody else gives a damn about.
lol wtf is wrong with you we explained ourselves clearly y you mad
 

Captain L

Smash Champion
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Aug 15, 2009
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BC
Not bad, probably needs a ground type though. Or at least an electric resist since you have two electric weak pokemon and zero electric resists. I'd also be careful about using forretress and scizor on the same team, but you have enough fire resists that you should be good. What is the benefit of having both tentacruel and milotic though? Aren't they both special walls?

Try swampert over milotic maybe? Which gen is this for?
 

_GrapE_

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
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Within BC somewhere
Forretress is anti-electric and spikes. Scizor is Sword dance-attack. Tentacruel is toxic/protect. Milotic is tank-scald. Alakazam is obvious. Kingdra is sweeper.

The thing is that I wanna use top tiers and also stick with Pokemon that I like, so after two hours this is the team I ended up with. I'm doing fairly well so far, haven't played much though.

Uber teams are ****in' irritating.
 

Captain L

Smash Champion
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BC
but nothing resists, everything is either neutral or weak. And considering electric is a relatively common offensive type I think that might be a little problematic. Not a glaring weakness, but something that could be easily improved.
 

_GrapE_

Smash Lord
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Mar 15, 2010
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Within BC somewhere
Except I just did a tournament (1 game single elim) and I faced the guy who won, first round.

I'm considering a switch for someone better, but I don't have anyone to switch that isn't crucial. =[
 
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