Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

[Cutie Gwen]

The star power of the character being added, the potential for profit, and the gameplay potential is what matters for 3rd parties.

Sakurai himself has spoken on this “Nintendo relationship” and has specified it as nothing more than “a courtesy”. He’s also mentioned that he looks for characters that can do something others can’t, and bring personality to the game.

Every single 3rd party character that Sakurai has picked has achieved each of those things.

If you want 3rd parties that “have Nintendo history”, then that’s fine. I completely disagree with you, but that’s fine. Just be aware that instead of having gaming icons like Solid Snake, Cloud, or getting future picks from top of the line series like Resident Evil, you’ll be getting C-Tier 3rd parties that aren’t nearly as iconic either from those same companies, or basically Nintendo exclusive 3rd parties that won’t bring in nearly as much profit, like Professor Layton (no offense to his fans, but there’s a clear distinction).

Smash is what it is today because of the way Sakurai and his team have constructed the roster. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

I kind of disagree with your Resident Evil example as Resident Evil has not only had a fairly strong Nintendo presence (Hell the original game got a DS version) but Resident Evil 4 is kind of a huge deal and it was a Gamecube exclusive for a while and people consider the Wii version the best version

 

[Lil Puddin]

The strict Nintendo-only stopped mattering when all the characters in the game couldn't be used on the very same console. If any series even briefly touched a Nintendo product at some point, it's free game. And it makes sense to include newer (and easier to create) characters from the franchise they've chosen.

People who play Smash aren't all Nintendo-only fans. It's a huge clump of many different gamers from many different consoles. It's smarter for longevity and inclusion to spread to all types of gaming worlds. It also steals the spotlight from anyone trying to copy Smash's basic formula. oopsT

Anyone not on board at this point is just holding on to something that... Doesn't really matter. Or something that stopped existing during/after Brawl. Y'all had over a decade to adjust to what Smash is. If y'all still need more time to adjust, well then hunTies, maybe it's time y'all took several hard seats.

 

[Deleted member]

Besides what Scoliosis said, it is also important to note that Joker does have a relation with Nintendo.

While we don’t have P5 yet on a Nintendo system, we do have PQ2 on 3DS and P5Scramble on Switch.
Those two alone are enough to make Joker a character related to Nintendo, at least for me.
Joker was also added because of Sakurai’s interest on P5, which makes the argument of a Nintendo mark not as relevant.

All in all, I find Joker as a perfect addition for this Fighter Pass: a modern gaming icon from a popular and greatly-received JRPG series made by a company who started on the NES era, owned by SEGA and from a franchise with a decent track of spin offs on Nintendo systems, that without counting the many games released by Atlus on Nintendo systems and Sakurai’s love for Persona.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I kind of disagree with your Resident Evil example as Resident Evil has not only had a fairly strong Nintendo presence (Hell the original game got a DS version) but Resident Evil 4 is kind of a huge deal and it was a Gamecube exclusive for a while and people consider the Wii version the best version

That's a fair point. The better point probably would be this:

Disregarding Nintendo history, why would Sakurai pick a character that Nintendo fans (aka, the ones who already bought a Switch and most likely Smash) would already know and could largely only play on Nintendo consoles (so think 3rd parties like Layton) over a larger 3rd party such as a Resident Evil protagonist, who has been on several consoles throughout generations, brings personality, unique gameplay, and mondo gaming legacy?

It's a no brainer, clearly.

 

[Deleted member]

That's a fair point. The better point probably would be this:

Disregarding Nintendo history, why would Sakurai pick a character that Nintendo fans (aka, the ones who already bought a Switch and most likely Smash) would already know and could largely only play on Nintendo consoles (so think 3rd parties like Layton) over a larger 3rd party such as a Resident Evil protagonist, who has been on several consoles throughout generations, brings personality, unique gameplay, and mondo gaming legacy?

It's a no brainer, clearly.

I would replace the Resident Evil example with something like DMC, tbh.

Mostly because Dante for example is someone whose games don’t usually get released on Nintendo consoles, but is popular enough to validate a spot in Smash.
And in the same way as Cloud or Joker, he appears on a few Capcom spin offs released on Nintendo systems (Project X Zone for example).

Your point with RE is fair, but not so clear as with DMC.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I would replace the Resident Evil example with something like DMC, tbh.

Mostly because Dante for example is someone whose games don’t usually get released on Nintendo consoles, but is popular enough to validate a spot in Smash.
And in the same way as Cloud or Joker, he appears on a few Capcom spin offs released on Nintendo systems (Project X Zone for example).

Your point with RE is fair, but not so clear as with DMC.

The funny thing with Dante is that his Smash demand was/is big enough to make multiple people involved with the Devil May Cry franchise talk about the possibility. Matt Walker, producer of DMCV said he'd be thrilled to see that when asked, Hideaki Itsuno, the guy who adopted the franchise and made it good when he was in charge, said he likes the idea but wants DMC on Nintendo systems first and Capcom expressed interest in bringing DMC to Nintendo shortly afterwards

 

[Deleted member]

The funny thing with Dante is that his Smash demand was/is big enough to make multiple people involved with the Devil May Cry franchise talk about the possibility. Matt Walker, producer of DMCV said he'd be thrilled to see that when asked, Hideaki Itsuno, the guy who adopted the franchise and made it good when he was in charge, said he likes the idea but wants DMC on Nintendo systems first and Capcom expressed interest in bringing DMC to Nintendo shortly afterwards

Yeah, I can easily imagine Dante going through a similar track as Cloud or Joker if he gets in Smash.

 

[Captain Shades]

Imma be real with you chief, the non-Nintendo specific 3rd parties are some of the best inclusions. Plus they actually do have history with Nintendo if you count rivalries seeing as everyone is okay with Sonic as he was Mario’s rival, but the second ya boi Snake roles in for their next biggest competitor Sony, we have a problem.

Also a majority of the characters you mentioned can use the same logic in favor or against them. Ryu was an advertisement for Street Fighter V which wasn’t on Nintendo platforms. Pac-Man also really isn’t particularly known for being a Nintendo 3rd party basically just being known because of the arcade.

On the opposite hand, Cloud represents the Square and Nintendo divide and the rise of Nintendo’s biggest competitor, so he does have history. Doom Slayer was part of a huge series that has been on Nintendo platforms since the SNES and just recently got a Switch release and one that really showed the power of the hand held. Steve is also a big Nintendo character being a bright spot on the Wii U, the thing that connected Microsoft to Nintendo with crossplay, got an exclusive 3DS, and has had his title on all 3 of the recent Nintendo systems.

 

[Izanagi97]

Imma be real with you chief, the non-Nintendo specific 3rd parties are some of the best inclusions. Plus they actually do have history with Nintendo if you count rivalries seeing as everyone is okay with Sonic as he was Mario’s rival, but the second ya boi Snake roles in for their next biggest competitor Sony, we have a problem.

Also a majority of the characters you mentioned can use the same logic in favor or against them. Ryu was an advertisement for Street Fighter V which wasn’t on Nintendo platforms. Pac-Man also really isn’t particularly known for being a Nintendo 3rd party basically just being known because of the arcade.

On the opposite hand, Cloud represents the Square and Nintendo divide and the rise of Nintendo’s biggest competitor, so he does have history. Doom Slayer was part of a huge series that has been on Nintendo platforms since the SNES and just recently got a Switch release and one that really showed the power of the hand held. Steve is also a big Nintendo character being a bright spot on the Wii U, the thing that connected Microsoft to Nintendo with crossplay, got an exclusive 3DS, and has had his title on all 3 of the recent Nintendo systems.

I mean hell, the Third Party universes introduced have a lot of history in them when you think about it (this part is just me skimming TvTropes)

• Metal Gear: Invented and popularized Stealth based games. Also introduced some bits of Cover Shooter gameplay later made popular in games like Rainbow Six and Gears of War
• Sonic the Hedgehog: Sega's Mascot and the rival of Mario
• Mega Man: Classic Mega Man is one of Capcom's mascots (when not talking about street fighter)
• Pac-Man: First Maze Game (original Pac-man), First game with a female playable character (Ms. Pac-Man), and one of the earliest side scrollers (Pac-Land)
• Street Fighter: Created a lot of the things you would see in fighting games (like a gallery of fighters and stages) as well as popularizing fighting games
• Final Fantasy: Was the pioneer of a lot of tropes you see in RPGs
• Bayonetta: I say this is more to promote the fact that Bayonetta is on Nintendo consoles nowadays, but it was made by Hideki Kamiya AKA the guy behind Devil May Cry which inspired a lot of "Stylish Action" games in the Hack n Slash genre
• Castlevania: Though it came later, it is one of two series that make up the name of a sub-genre of Action Adventure platformers (Metroidvanias)
• Persona: Popular spinoff of Shin Megami Tensei which basically created the Monster Capturing subgenre of RPGs (aka, the thing made popular by Pokemon)

 

[Captain Shades]

Bayonetta: I say this is more to promote the fact that Bayonetta is on Nintendo consoles nowadays, but it was made by Hideki Kamiya AKA the guy behind Devil May Cry which inspired a lot of "Stylish Action" games in the Hack n Slash genre

Bayonetta is also a huge discussion piece in terms of the portrayal of women in video games. Her series is also Devil May Cry’s successor to many as she perfected the gameplay style.

 

[Manonymous]

I'm not sure I'd call their relations fixed. Anything Square seems to do is to too little too late. Octopath seemed promising, but it was no FF. Now it's no longer exclusive or won't be soon.

And yet Octopath is still a Switch exclusive.

 

[The DanMan051]

And yet Octopath is still a Switch exclusive.

Someone missed the news of the PC port launching in June/July.

 

[Manonymous]

Someone missed the news of the PC port launching in June/July.

Really ? Oh, then, sorry.

 

[Nutty Sponge]

No, many people are missing the point. Smash isn't just a celebration of Nintendo, but gaming history as a whole. Why would Sakurai put characters with no relevance in? Cloud, Ryu, Pac-Man, Megaman etc are all important to gaming. You're making it seem like Nintendo is JUST greedy for money by adding characters we like in the game.

Nah third parties are the only hype characters left, with 2-3 exceptions from the Nintendo camp.

I would rather have the main protagonist of an iconic third party series/title than Nintendo's D listers.

E x a c t l y

 

[Cosmic77]

Regardless of how many people believe that Smash is a game where characters from all over can come hold hands around the campfire and sing Kumbaya, it's always been and will likely always be a Nintendo-centered game.

Just to clarify, I don't think third-parties are a bad thing. Again, I really think iconic characters like Sonic and Mega Man deserved to be in this game. I just don't think it's a good idea for third-parties to become the focus of newcomers. For starters, it's gonna be pricey and an absolute pain in the butt getting all these third-party companies to cooperate every time a new Smash game comes out. Second, it'll make Smash way too broad. Without lying to yourself, how many of the third-parties currently in Smash did you actively support during speculation? Unless I didn't hear the silent majority, I'm guessing it's three at best.

I understand the appeal of third-parties, but I don't think people realize how lucky we are to have a game that focuses on creatively using Nintendo's franchises and characters, and that's not restricted to only those on the roster. Changing that focus would, in my opinion, completely transform Smash into something we can't even recognize.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Dunno why people say Smash isn't Smash anymore with third parties involved when the guest characters they introduced throughout the series have made Smash a lot stronger. While I will admit some third part franchises aren't represented properly (), they more than earned their place in Smash.

Regardless of how many people believe that Smash is a game where characters from all over can come hold hands around the campfire and sing Kumbaya, it's always been and will likely always be a Nintendo-centered game.

Just to clarify, I don't think third-parties are a bad thing. Again, I really think iconic characters like Sonic and Mega Man deserved to be in this game. I just don't think it's a good idea for third-parties to become the focus of newcomers. For starters, it's gonna be pricey and an absolute pain in the butt getting all these third-party companies to cooperate every time a new Smash game comes out. Second, it'll make Smash way too broad. Without lying to yourself, how many of the third-parties currently in Smash did you actively support during speculation? Unless I didn't hear the silent majority, I'm guessing it's three at best.

I understand the appeal of third-parties, but I don't think people realize how lucky we are to have a game that focuses on creatively using Nintendo's franchises and characters, and that's not restricted to only those on the roster. Changing that focus would, in my opinion, completely transform Smash into something we can't even recognize.

It's never lost its focus. It's just as much as a celebration of Nintendo history as it is a celebration of gaming history as a whole. Even with new third party characters, they're still taking the time to introduce first party characters with unique playstyles and personalities like .

 

[Cosmic77]

It's never lost its focus. It's just as much as a celebration of Nintendo history as it is a celebration of gaming history as a whole. Even with new third party characters, they're still taking the time to introduce first party characters with unique playstyles and personalities like .

Never said it did.

...it's always been and will likely always be a Nintendo-centered game.

I explained why transitioning to an emphasis on first-parties to third-parties isn't a good idea.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Never said it did.




I explained why transitioning to an emphasis on first-parties to third-parties isn't a good idea.

We're going to need about 60 more characters if it's going to be emphasizing third parties though

 

[Cosmic77]

We're going to need about 60 more characters if it's going to be emphasizing third parties though

Not necessarily. The number of third-parties on the roster in any given Smash game time doesn't accurately show if there was an emphasis on third-parties at some point. The base roster of a future Smash game that has 7 third-party newcomers would have obviously had an emphasis on third-parties, but you wouldn't be able to tell that if you only looked at the Nintendo/third-party ratio and said, "Welp, we have way more Nintendo characters."

All I've been trying to get at is that I think it would be best if Nintendo franchises took priority during development. A few third-parties are fine, but I think they should be in moderation and spaced out between reveals.

 

[Manonymous]

Not necessarily. The number of third-parties on the roster in any given Smash game time doesn't accurately show if there was an emphasis on third-parties at some point. The base roster of a future Smash game that has 7 third-party newcomers would have obviously had an emphasis on third-parties, but you wouldn't be able to tell that if you only looked at the Nintendo/third-party ratio and said, "Welp, we have way more Nintendo characters."

All I've been trying to get at is that I think it would be best if Nintendo franchises took priority during development. A few third-parties are fine, but I think they should be in moderation and spaced out between reveals.

Just like they did for Ultimate ?

 

[Cosmic77]

Just like they did for Ultimate ?

There are rumors of Erdrick and Steve getting as DLC.

Might wanna save that post for after the reveal of the 5th DLC character.

 

[Gallowglass]

I feel the same way about the original post. For me I think Smash Bros is about showcasing Nintendo as a whole and not video games entirely. If this was about the entirety of video games then why would they add characters like Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon, or Shulk? In the grand video game universe these games are pretty obscure but in the Nintendo world they're rather prominent. So by focusing more on 3rd parties would push aside those little Nintendo gems that many of us really enjoy or still want.

Originally I was totally against 3rd parties during the Brawl but I've learn to warm up to it. I do like 3rd parties that have a strong connection with Nintendo like Mega Man, Simon, and Sonic. Even Bayonetta has some presence with having Nintendo exclusive games. With that said there are a few characters I feel that don't belong in Smash.

: Cloud got in because he made a cameo in a Kingdom Hearts spin off game I don't feel give it justice. Now that they're finally putting FFVII on a Nintendo system he's a little more legit but I feel its a little too late. On top of that its not even a remaster version like Metal Gear: Twin Snakes. Personally I think characters like Chrono, Geno, or even other FF character like the Black Mage would be a lot more appropriate for a Square Rep.

: Snake has kind of the opposite effect than cloud. He had games on Nintendo but hasn't had a new game on Nintendo in over a decade. Most of the games have been on other platforms. Even in the Brawl and WiiU trophy lists they had to pull content from those games because Metal Gear has such a small rep in the Nintendo library. And I know that the Metal Gear creator begged Sakurai to add him in Smash but they should have at least a new game for Nintendo for the deal.

: The only reason I know what the Persona series is because my friend loves the series and has only Playstation. My friend tries to persuade me to get a Playstation because of the Persona series and Metal Gear games. It like Nintendo is advertising their own competition.Like Cloud his only appearance on a Nintendo system outside of Smash is from a spin off title (at least its from his own series). Only recently are they adding ports of the other persona games to Smash but they're not even adding 5. And to top it all off they let him keep his realistic gun. Now for those who have followed Smash a long time would know that Sakurai has advocate about keeping realistic guns out of Smash (changes to the ray gun's appearance, Removing Snake's SOCOM, etc..). So why does this guy gets a past? It honestly doesn't bother me if a character has a realistic firearm or not but its the principle that they are bending the rules around for this character who is barely appears on a Nintendo series.

In short I think 3rd parties are fine if they make a strong prominence on Nintendo systems but shouldn't be in just because they're popular as a whole.

 

[Nemuresu]

Regardless of how many people believe that Smash is a game where characters from all over can come hold hands around the campfire and sing Kumbaya, it's always been and will likely always be a Nintendo-centered game.

Then Nintendo and Sakurai clearly do not agree with you. The former because they gave the latter a character list with Joker and approved of including him; and the latter because he doesn't consider Smash to be about Nintendo. And as far the speculation scene goes, neither do a lot of people as well.

Just to clarify, I don't think third-parties are a bad thing. Again, I really think iconic characters like Sonic and Mega Man deserved to be in this game. I just don't think it's a good idea for third-parties to become the focus of newcomers. For starters, it's gonna be pricey and an absolute pain in the butt getting all these third-party companies to cooperate every time a new Smash game comes out. Second, it'll make Smash way too broad.

It doesn't have to be all necessarily. That and that, just to bring it up, Sega has collaborated with Nintendo, not one, not two, but three times with Nintendo on Smash, and with the amount of content for Konami and Capcom franchises, there's no reason to think it's impossible to negotiate with them again.

Without lying to yourself, how many of the third-parties currently in Smash did you actively support during speculation? Unless I didn't hear the silent majority, I'm guessing it's three at best.

I supported about four of them. What about the others? Got myself to care.

I understand the appeal of third-parties, but I don't think people realize how lucky we are to have a game that focuses on creatively using Nintendo's franchises and characters, and that's not restricted to only those on the roster. Changing that focus would, in my opinion, completely transform Smash into something we can't even recognize.

You say that people won't be able to recognize the game where Mario, Link, Kirby and Pikachu whack around if Ray Man is added into the mix? Then I sure don't know where have you been the last five years or so.

Not necessarily. The number of third-parties on the roster in any given Smash game time doesn't accurately show if there was an emphasis on third-parties at some point. The base roster of a future Smash game that has 7 third-party newcomers would have obviously had an emphasis on third-parties, but you wouldn't be able to tell that if you only looked at the Nintendo/third-party ratio and said, "Welp, we have way more Nintendo characters."

Because they don't. No roster has really emphasized additions on guests barring 4's DLC (and possibly this pass too). And even then, we're talking about DLC, not the base game where only four guests have been included (not counting Ultimate because its purpose was to bring every single veteran on board).

All I've been trying to get at is that I think it would be best if Nintendo franchises took priority during development. A few third-parties are fine, but I think they should be in moderation and spaced out between reveals.

Yeah right, because 11 guests out of the current 78-characters roster is such a bad thing that it needs moderation. Wanna see a real overtly-saturated roster? Go look at Marvel vs Capcom 2 and tell me how much of the roster the X-Men and Street Fighter characters take.

There are rumors of Erdrick and Steve getting as DLC.

Might wanna save that post for after the reveal of the 5th DLC character.

They're still rumours. People are free to believe them, but they can still not happen.

 

[The DanMan051]

There are rumors of Erdrick and Steve getting as DLC.

Might wanna save that post for after the reveal of the 5th DLC character.

The DLC was always going to be predominantly 3rd party characters; the same thing happened with Smash 4's DLC newcomers.

That doesn't invalidate everybody who's already there.

And this:

Regardless of how many people believe that Smash is a game where characters from all over can come hold hands around the campfire and sing Kumbaya, it's always been and will likely always be a Nintendo-centered game.

Just to clarify, I don't think third-parties are a bad thing. Again, I really think iconic characters like Sonic and Mega Man deserved to be in this game. I just don't think it's a good idea for third-parties to become the focus of newcomers. For starters, it's gonna be pricey and an absolute pain in the butt getting all these third-party companies to cooperate every time a new Smash game comes out. Second, it'll make Smash way too broad. Without lying to yourself, how many of the third-parties currently in Smash did you actively support during speculation? Unless I didn't hear the silent majority, I'm guessing it's three at best.

I understand the appeal of third-parties, but I don't think people realize how lucky we are to have a game that focuses on creatively using Nintendo's franchises and characters, and that's not restricted to only those on the roster. Changing that focus would, in my opinion, completely transform Smash into something we can't even recognize.

Feels bizarre in light of Sakurai himself saying years ago that the series is now a celebration of gaming in general and not strictly Nintendo-centric.

"For starters, it's gonna be pricey and an absolute pain in the butt getting all these third-party companies to cooperate every time a new Smash game comes out."
But if the monetary gain outweighs the cost, then that factor doesn't really matter. And it's not like every single 3rd party needs to be retained going forwards; though even then, Sega and Capcom both seem very easy to work with (which also counters your first point here).

"Without lying to yourself, how many of the third-parties currently in Smash did you actively support during speculation? Unless I didn't hear the silent majority, I'm guessing it's three at best."
That's exactly what it is. The general playerbase and gaming public is far more interested in 3rd parties over 1st parties.
Nintendo is pretty much at the bottom of the barrel in terms of 1st party picks, and the series semi-regularly introducing new characters are the most hated by this community (and any additions from them are dismissed on the grounds of "soulless marketing"-- something I've seen a fair few people write of Smash 4's newcomer roster as).

And for reference, my most wanteds this time around were Rex and Monster Hunter.

 

[meleebrawler]

The DLC was always going to be predominantly 3rd party characters; the same thing happened with Smash 4's DLC newcomers.

That doesn't invalidate everybody who's already there.

And this:

Feels bizarre in light of Sakurai himself saying years ago that the series is now a celebration of gaming in general and not strictly Nintendo-centric.

"For starters, it's gonna be pricey and an absolute pain in the butt getting all these third-party companies to cooperate every time a new Smash game comes out."
But if the monetary gain outweighs the cost, then that factor doesn't really matter. And it's not like every single 3rd party needs to be retained going forwards; though even then, Sega and Capcom both seem very easy to work with (which also counters your first point here).

"Without lying to yourself, how many of the third-parties currently in Smash did you actively support during speculation? Unless I didn't hear the silent majority, I'm guessing it's three at best."
That's exactly what it is. The general playerbase and gaming public is far more interested in 3rd parties over 1st parties.
Nintendo is pretty much at the bottom of the barrel in terms of 1st party picks, and the series semi-regularly introducing new characters are the most hated by this community (and any additions from them are dismissed on the grounds of "soulless marketing"-- something I've seen a fair few people write of Smash 4's newcomer roster as).

And for reference, my most wanteds this time around were Rex and Monster Hunter.

I do find when it comes to characters from the most recent entries and/or IPs, fans sometimes jump the gun for support before really knowing anything about them, or if they'll even be well-received. Just seems like a weird gamble to me. Still, when it comes to Nintendo picks they are admittedly pretty much the only ones left to generate substantial hype.

If you support Monster Hunter, may I suggest paying a visit to this thread? https://smashboards.com/threads/a-new-quest-beckons-monster-hunter-for-smash.457320/

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, I think whole idea of Smash having to represent Nintendo history or videogame history seems counterintuitive most of the time as the roster options would end up quite limiting. I feel that the game as a whole works just as a pretty cool crossover where we can see stuff like DK vs Little Mac, Link vs Cloud, Mario vs Sonic, WFT vs Wario or K. Rool and so on. I don't really think the characters need necessarily to be important in either Nintendo or videogame history (and my humble opinion, we have everytime less and less of these options), I think that as long as they fit in Smash (have their design translated for the game plus moveset adapted for it) and can get me hyped by their appearance in the game, they are ok in my book.

 

[Wyoming]

This thread summed up

 

[DarthEnderX]

As someone who will probably never own a Playstation console, please remind me why I should care about Joker again? Why should I purchase him in SSBU?

You're right.

Captain Falcon shouldn't be in Smash either beacause there are no F-Zero games on Switch.

I would rather have the main protagonist of an iconic third party series/title than Nintendo's D listers.

So much this.

 

[SmashChu]

It's funny. It use to be old fuddy duddies like me who complied about Non-Nintendo characters in Smash. Now I'm seeing it more and more. I think what's changed is people's tolerance. See, back at the end of Smash 4, there wasn't too much to complain about. Sure, there were three guest, but you have Sonic (Mario's eternal rival), Megaman (who was born on the NES) and Pac-Man (who generally fits and has been in crossovers with Mario). Also, people forget that a lot of people were fine with Snake being cut as he didn't have a strong tie to Nintendo.

But with Smash 4's DLC and onward, it's been a flood of characters. To give you an idea, if you include the DLC and Smash Ultimate's newcomes (excluding the Echos) they have added 5 new non-Nintendo characters and only 7 Nintendo characters. This is a pretty drastic change for when Smash 4 only had 3 Non-Nintendo characters. Not to mention, as OP noted, a lot of the new third party characters have much to do with Nintendo.

What people often forget is that the people who play Smash are primarily Nintendo fans and those are the games they are the most familiar with. If we're talking about Castlevania or Megaman, that's a different story. But a lot of Smash fans don't have the same experience with Metal Gear, Persona and the later Final Fantasy games. Moreover, we are getting to a point where the real popular Non-Nintendo characters are drying up. On the other hand, there are a ton of Nintendo characters that have yet to be added and the list will only grow.

Guest characters are a staple of the genre now, so we should expect this to a degree in the future games too. However, Smash has taken it to a point to where the guest characters are beginning to crowd out the Nintendo characters. For a series that is built on celebrating Nintendo, it's going to eventually preturb some people, which I think is what is going on with OP's post. In fairness, we don't know the rest of the DLC. It could be more Nintendo characters for all we know. But I think there is a trend where people are beginning will want more Nintendo characters.

Nah third parties are the only hype characters left, with 2-3 exceptions from the Nintendo camp.

I would rather have the main protagonist of an iconic third party series/title than Nintendo's D listers.

This couldn't be further from the truth. To give you an idea of the potential characters

• Spring Man (From ARMS, a totally new IP)
• Rex (The most popular character in Japan right now)
• Octoling (Splatoon becoming one of Nintendo's most successful IPs)
• Bandanna Dee - (One of the more popular characters and one thats appeared in almost every Kirby game since his debut)
• Captain Toad - (One of the more popular Mario characters)
• Elude - (MC of Dragalia Lost, one of Nintendo's most successful mobile games)
• Astral Chains - (Game will likely do well enough to warrent a character)
• Sword and Sheild Pokemon - (There will always be a new Pokemon and it could be from this game or the next one)

This also isn't include Zelda which has a lot of characters to draw from. Additionally, there are still classic Nintendo characters and Nintendo will likely have new IPs (Monolith is working on something and Retro artist are teasing something). I think people say that there aren't enough Nintendo characters tend to lack creativity.

 

[Wyoming]

None of those characters you listed would excite me more than most third party additions.

I don't play ARMS or Splatoon (Octoling most likely being a semi-clone at most to boot unless something changes), Astral Chain could bomb (remember when Codename Steam was supposed to be a new huge thing?), a mobile gaming character isn't exactly top of the list for console owners, Sword and Shield will be forgotten by the time the next Smash game launches nor can we predict if any the future mons will be a big hit necessarily, agreed on BWD and Toad (prefer ordinary over Captain personally) as they are part of the 2-3 I vaguely mentioned.

As for Rex, that ship has sailed unless wave 2 happens and saves him. DLC spirit board and the mii costume being a purchase bonus really put a dent on Xenoblade 2 in Smash.

 

[meleebrawler]

None of those characters you listed would excite me more than most third party additions.

I don't play ARMS or Splatoon (Octoling most likely being a semi-clone at most to boot unless something changes), Astral Chain could bomb (remember when Codename Steam was supposed to be a new huge thing?), a mobile gaming character isn't exactly top of the list for console owners, Sword and Shield will be forgotten by the time the next Smash game launches nor can we predict if any the future mons will be a big hit necessarily, agreed on BWD and Toad (prefer ordinary over Captain personally) as they are part of the 2-3 I vaguely mentioned.

As for Rex, that ship has sailed unless wave 2 happens and saves him. DLC spirit board and the mii costume being a purchase bonus really put a dent on Xenoblade 2 in Smash.

I mean, we only have the driver party members and the most unique blades as spirits currently. There's a whole mess of unused characters with convenient art they could add to a Xenoblade 2 board.

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks everyone for your input; turns out a lot of people have opinions on this as the thread is still going. There was some talk about 3rd party A-listers versus Nintendo D-listers, and while I think we've gotten most of the 1st party heavy hitters at this point, the funny thing is that every character, no matter how "popular" (or rather unpopular) outside of Smash, has its fans. So if Nintendo were to add another "D-list character" like Ice Climbers, Pit, Dark Pit, Captain Falcon, Piranha Plant, Ness, Lucas, Duck Hunt etc. people would still flock to them and appreciate them (especially if they're good competitively, which is all that a large portion of the playerbase really cares about--you see any Bayonetta players online anymore?).

I know Sakurai calls 3rd party characters "guests" and very likely they won't all return in the future, but at the same time, when a character enters the fray in Super Smash Bros., it cements them in Smash and, to a lesser extent, gaming history. Like magic, their popularity soars and interest surrounding them increases significantly. This was further illustrated when all characters, no matter how irrelevant today, returned in Smash Ultimate. Characters like Young Link, Pichu or Snake would likely not be in Ultimate today if not for the fact that they had previously been in Smash. So because of that, they're kind of part of this Smash Bros. family. And because of that I think some people take more seriously who should get the honor of being part of this family or not; there are no take-backs.

Really, I'm all for 3rd parties as long as I feel their inclusion makes sense and they feel at home or that it's deserved or that fans of the series really want them--and not because someone begged Sakurai as a personal favor, or because freelancer Sakurai particularly enjoyed a PlayStation exclusive game and has the power to add its main character into Nintendo's flagship title. I mean at the end of the day it's his game so he can do what he wants, but that doesn't mean I can't have my own opinion on it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Guest character in Smash are less guests than they are in pretty much any other fighting game.

In what other fighting game do you see guest characters just hanging out with the regulars in a reveal trailer for a 1st party character?

With the exception of Cloud, every guest gets all the same content and features as the Nintendo characters. Sometimes even moreso.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Really, I'm all for 3rd parties as long as I feel their inclusion makes sense and they feel at home or that it's deserved or that fans of the series really want them

Ok but not only does EVERY characters have fans that want them in Smash, but when you made this thead your post condemned the thought of Doomguy, a characters who's games have almost always been on Nintendo with the exclusive Doom 64 being canon and how much of an innovator Doom was. Yet to you the idea didn't make sense

 

[The DanMan051]

Guest character in Smash are less guests than they are in pretty much any other fighting game.

In what other fighting game do you see guest characters just hanging out with the regulars in a reveal trailer for a 1st party character?

With the exception of Cloud, every guest gets all the same content and features as the Nintendo characters. Sometimes even moreso.

Also, "guest" characters seem to stick around in Smash-- unlike, say, Soul Calibur.

It's funny. It use to be old fuddy duddies like me who complied about Non-Nintendo characters in Smash. Now I'm seeing it more and more. I think what's changed is people's tolerance. See, back at the end of Smash 4, there wasn't too much to complain about. Sure, there were three guest, but you have Sonic (Mario's eternal rival), Megaman (who was born on the NES) and Pac-Man (who generally fits and has been in crossovers with Mario). Also, people forget that a lot of people were fine with Snake being cut as he didn't have a strong tie to Nintendo.

But with Smash 4's DLC and onward, it's been a flood of characters. To give you an idea, if you include the DLC and Smash Ultimate's newcomes (excluding the Echos) they have added 5 new non-Nintendo characters and only 7 Nintendo characters. This is a pretty drastic change for when Smash 4 only had 3 Non-Nintendo characters. Not to mention, as OP noted, a lot of the new third party characters have much to do with Nintendo.

What people often forget is that the people who play Smash are primarily Nintendo fans and those are the games they are the most familiar with. If we're talking about Castlevania or Megaman, that's a different story. But a lot of Smash fans don't have the same experience with Metal Gear, Persona and the later Final Fantasy games. Moreover, we are getting to a point where the real popular Non-Nintendo characters are drying up. On the other hand, there are a ton of Nintendo characters that have yet to be added and the list will only grow.

Guest characters are a staple of the genre now, so we should expect this to a degree in the future games too. However, Smash has taken it to a point to where the guest characters are beginning to crowd out the Nintendo characters. For a series that is built on celebrating Nintendo, it's going to eventually preturb some people, which I think is what is going on with OP's post. In fairness, we don't know the rest of the DLC. It could be more Nintendo characters for all we know. But I think there is a trend where people are beginning will want more Nintendo characters.

Ah yes, using the echo chamber as a measuring stick.

Snake was easily the most missed cut from Brawl to Smash 4-- heck, I knew someone who refused to buy the game until it went on sale because of it. There's a reason he was the one to show that "Everyone is here". Also, a big part of that reason is that (2nd bolded point) 3rd party characters generate far more hype and, through that, revenue for Nintendo. It's a tried and true fact at this point. So, short of only counting the echo chamber, can you really claim "the people who play Smash are primarily Nintendo fans" with a straight face?

The series consistently sells over 10 million, and it's a basic trend for people to own more gaming hardware than just a Nintendo console. Smash has an infinitely broader audience than this online echo chamber, again illustrated by the overall reception to 3rd party characters.

"Moreover, we are getting to a point where the real popular Non-Nintendo characters are drying up. On the other hand, there are a ton of Nintendo characters that have yet to be added and the list will only grow."
...What.
From large (Doom Slayer, an Assassin's Creed character, Monster Hunter, Minecraft, Resident Evil, etc.) to more mid-tier stuff (the Tales series, Undertale, Dynasty Warriors, etc.), there's tons more choices that would excite people far more than the likes of freakin' Dixie Kong or Bandanna Dee. And that's completely ignoring the series already in Smash-- you think people wouldn't be hyped as hell for Shadow, Zero, Alucard, etc. ?
Even B-list 3rd parties are a hell of a lot more interesting and greater hype/revenue generators (just see Joker) than D-list 1st party characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Also, "guest" characters seem to stick around in Smash-- unlike, say, Soul Calibur.


Ah yes, using the echo chamber as a measuring stick.

Snake was easily the most missed cut from Brawl to Smash 4-- heck, I knew someone who refused to buy the game until it went on sale because of it. There's a reason he was the one to show that "Everyone is here". Also, a big part of that reason is that (2nd bolded point) 3rd party characters generate far more hype and, through that, revenue for Nintendo. It's a tried and true fact at this point. So, short of only counting the echo chamber, can you really claim "the people who play Smash are primarily Nintendo fans" with a straight face?

The series consistently sells over 10 million, and it's a basic trend for people to own more gaming hardware than just a Nintendo console. Smash has an infinitely broader audience than this online echo chamber, again illustrated by the overall reception to 3rd party characters.

"Moreover, we are getting to a point where the real popular Non-Nintendo characters are drying up. On the other hand, there are a ton of Nintendo characters that have yet to be added and the list will only grow."
...What.
From large (Doom Slayer, an Assassin's Creed character, Monster Hunter, Minecraft, Resident Evil, etc.) to more mid-tier stuff (the Tales series, Undertale, Dynasty Warriors, etc.), there's tons more choices that would excite people far more than the likes of freakin' Dixie Kong or Bandanna Dee. And that's completely ignoring the series already in Smash-- you think people wouldn't be hyped as hell for Shadow, Zero, Alucard, etc. ?
Even B-list 3rd parties are a hell of a lot more interesting and greater hype/revenue generators (just see Joker) than D-list 1st party characters.

First of all, Tales is apparently up there with Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest when it comes to big name RPGs.

Second, this conspiracy theorist spread that **** about Snakebefore, deliberately using how people believed he was cut to make it seem like people WANTED him cut ignoring how Snake caused the loudest reactions at E3.

Third, he's unfit for debate

 

[Deleted member]

People are just making a world over small things.

Joker has had appearances on Nintendo systems through Q2 and Scramble. That's enough to make him someone connected with Nintendo.

Sure, those aren't P5 for Switch, but they are still Nintendo games featuring Joker. That's basically the thing that matters.

It is the same thing as Cloud, since back on the Smash 4 days we didn't have FFvii on a Nintendo console, but Cloud did make appearances in some Square games for Nintendo consoles.

This also makes picks like Dante fair basically for featuring similar tracks on Nintendo consoles.

 

[Glerma]

People are just making a world over small things.

You pretty much summed up this site with that one sentence lol.

 

[UserKev]

This couldn't be further from the truth. To give you an idea of the potential characters

• Spring Man (From ARMS, a totally new IP)
• Rex (The most popular character in Japan right now)
• Octoling (Splatoon becoming one of Nintendo's most successful IPs)
• Bandanna Dee - (One of the more popular characters and one thats appeared in almost every Kirby game since his debut)
• Captain Toad - (One of the more popular Mario characters)
• Elude - (MC of Dragalia Lost, one of Nintendo's most successful mobile games)
• Astral Chains - (Game will likely do well enough to warrent a character)
• Sword and Sheild Pokemon - (There will always be a new Pokemon and it could be from this game or the next one)

This also isn't include Zelda which has a lot of characters to draw from. Additionally, there are still classic Nintendo characters and Nintendo will likely have new IPs (Monolith is working on something and Retro artist are teasing something). I think people say that there aren't enough Nintendo characters tend to lack creativity.

Nah, man. This.

- Captain Toad
- Skull Kid
- Cranky Kong
- Lyn
- Dixie Kong
- Sukapon
- Ashley
- Min Min

Pokémon and a new IP character are just icing on the cake.

 

[The DanMan051]

First of all, Tales is apparently up there with Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest when it comes to big name RPGs.

Second, this conspiracy theorist spread that **** about Snakebefore, deliberately using how people believed he was cut to make it seem like people WANTED him cut ignoring how Snake caused the loudest reactions at E3.

Third, he's unfit for debate

The Tales series is a long runner to be sure, but it's not nearly on FF's or even DQ's level in terms of sales; heck, the franchise itself has pretty much been on hiatus the past 3 years, with the only new game on the horizon being an upcoming mobile game and it kinda being downgraded to crossover fodder with God Eater (as Yuri and Velvet are playable in that series' mobile game and the GE3 Switch port has Yuri and Estelle costumes).

Well he's replying to this thread so I'd say he's fit for debate-- moreso than most of the people I debate on smashfaqs, anyways.

You pretty much summed up this site with that one sentence lol.

More like most of the damn internet.