Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

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Mewtwo

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#1
So the news finally dropped for P5S, which turns out to NOT be a Persona 5 Switch port, but a Musou/Warriors spinoff. As someone who will probably never own a Playstation console, please remind me why I should care about Joker again? Why should I purchase him in SSBU? Why should I buy this Persona 5 Scramble?

The thing is, after Joker was announced for Smash, practically everyone assumed that Persona 5 would come to Switch. And with some upcoming Persona 5 announcements, that seemed inevitable. Well, joke's on us I guess, because as of now, Joker in Smash Bros. seems to be a fancy Playstation advertisement. I never cared about Joker before his inclusion in Smash, and afterwards I still didn't care much but there was a chance I might try out his game if it came to Switch. Now I'm back to being completely apathetic and I don't even feel like purchasing him in Smash.

Nintendo is my gaming platform of choice. Why should the Smash DLC packs go to characters that don't have anything to do with Nintendo and won't be coming to Nintendo anyway (aside from spinoffs I guess)? Is a Playstation owner going to purchase a Switch and Super Smash Bros. because Joker is in it now? I would bet the only reason a lot of people bought Joker in Smash is because they assumed they would also be able to play Persona 5 on Switch at some point. At least in Corrin's and Bayonetta's cases, we had characters whose games we could play on the same platform, and Bayonetta is basically a 2nd party character at this point anyway. Even Cloud's game eventually came to Switch (though no news about the FF7 remake). I feel like the rest of the DLC packs are going to be 3rd party characters whose games may or may not come to Switch and who will probably never show up again in Smash anyway. Instead of that, why couldn't we get the remainder of the fan-favorite and fan-requested characters, that Nintendo fans, the ones who own and play Super Smash Bros., will want to purchase?

As for my point about 3rd party characters not belonging in Smash....I mean characters that literally have nothing to do with Nintendo, or extremely little. 3rd parties like Mega Man or Pac-man or Ryu make sense because they've had a strong history with Nintendo, at least in the past. But Joker? Cloud? Steve? Doom Guy? Master Chief? Or whatever other 3rd party characters people talk about? I'd prefer they stay away. If we're going to get advertisements in the form of character DLC, at least make it an advertisement for a game I can buy on the same console as Smash. Otherwise it's a waste of a "slot" (and yes I did just say that).
 
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Cosmic77

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#3
I'm not a huge fan of third-parties either, but I wouldn't say any of them are a wasted slot. Some like Sonic and Mega Man absolutely deserved to get in. They had fan demand, a creative moveset, and were (and still are) some of the the most iconic faces in gaming. And even when we drift off to more obscure third-parties like Bayo and Joker, at least they end up being extremely unique in comparison to the rest of the roster.

I think a better way to phrase your complaint is, "We're getting too many third-parties too close together". That's something I can definitely agree with, as five of the past eleven newcomers have been third-parties.
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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#5
Who's to say Persona 5 isn't on the way? Snake got Snake Eater 3D in 2012 despite being in Smash in 2008. Cloud got Final Fantasy VII in 2019 despite being in Smash in 2016. I feel your jumping the gun and Persona 5 Scramble is coming to Switch so, the point you're trying to make only adheres to a VERY specific circumstance that we aren't even sure is 100% yet.
 

Mewtwo

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#6
Ever thought about waiting until E-3? Because they may do something about that then.
If I've learned anything, it's to not get your hopes up about something like that. Again, I don't care and I didn't have my hopes up, but I would rather pay for a character that I as a Nintendo fan would enjoy. If we were talking about Playstation Allstars, then sure Joker would be a great fit.

Who's to say Persona 5 isn't on the way? Snake got Snake Eater 3D in 2012 despite being in Smash in 2008. Cloud got Final Fantasy VII in 2019 despite being in Smash in 2016. I feel your jumping the gun and Persona 5 Scramble is coming to Switch so, the point you're trying to make only adheres to a VERY specific circumstance that we aren't even sure is 100% yet.
Both Metal Gear and Final Fantasy had beginnings on Nintendo consoles at least, BUT their latest and greatest games still haven't come to the Switch, so my point still partially applies to them. And based on that, I have 0 reason to expect Persona 5 to ever come to Switch. This Musou spinoff may well be all we get. In which case, I couldn't care less about Joker and I'd rather the DLC character have been someone that a Nintendo fan would actually appreciate. That is my point.
 
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Zem-raj

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#7
It's a bit strange that Best Buy had Persona 5 listed for Nintendo Switch on their website weeks ago (as well as unconfirmed Metroid Prime Trilogy HD and another The Legend of Zelda remake, if I remember correctly), yet there's no indication from ATLUS or SEGA that the game will eventually come to the Nintendo Switch. There's a few scenarios here:

1) The listing was meant to be a placeholder for Persona 5 Scramble: The Phantom Strikers, a game confirmed to be releasing for the Nintendo Switch, but was added far too early and the person who added the listing only heard of "Persona 5".

2) The listing was an error or a fabrication.

3) Persona 5 (or The Royal equivalent) will release on the Nintendo Switch eventually, but it will be announced later.
  • E3 2019
  • Nintendo Direct
There are still games that we don't know of, and some that we've heard/seen in leaks/rumours that have yet to be confirmed or dismissed. Metroid Prime Trilogy HD was said to be "ready and waiting" by several leakers/insiders. Nintendo UK also had Spyro Reignited Trilogy on their website but took it down, and we still haven't had that confirmed yet. It's probably best to wait until we know for sure.
 

Mewtwo

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#8
It's a bit strange that Best Buy had Persona 5 listed for Nintendo Switch on their website weeks ago (as well as unconfirmed Metroid Prime Trilogy HD and another The Legend of Zelda remake, if I remember correctly), yet there's no indication from ATLUS or SEGA that the game will eventually come to the Nintendo Switch. There's a few scenarios here:

1) The listing was meant to be a placeholder for Persona 5 Scramble: The Phantom Strikers, a game confirmed to be releasing for the Nintendo Switch, but was added far too early and the person who added the listing only heard of "Persona 5".

2) The listing was an error or a fabrication.

3) Persona 5 (or The Royal equivalent) will release on the Nintendo Switch eventually, but it will be announced later.
  • E3 2019
  • Nintendo Direct
There are still games that we don't know of, and some that we've heard/seen in leaks/rumours that have yet to be confirmed or dismissed. Metroid Prime Trilogy HD was said to be "ready and waiting" by several leakers/insiders. Nintendo UK also had Spyro Reignited Trilogy on their website but took it down, and we still haven't had that confirmed yet. It's probably best to wait until we know for sure.
I agree we will have to wait and see, and yes a bunch of Final Fantasy games have finally come to Switch after Cloud randomly dropped into Smash 4. But do I still feel like Cloud doesn't really "belong" in Super Smash Bros.? Yes. Same with Snake, and now Joker. Sonic and Mega Man feel totally at home, and I welcome Bayonetta too because all of her games are playable on Wii U and Switch, along with the 3rd game coming to Switch as well. And, mind you, Bayonetta 2 was released for Wii U BEFORE she entered Smash, so she never felt out of place to begin with.

Perhaps I could have been more clear in my original post, but I did try to emphasize that I have moreso a problem with 3rd parties entering Smash undeservedly, like Cloud, Snake and Joker in particular (lesser extent Ryu but Street Fighter 2 was big on SNES), with no guarantee that their latest signature games will even come to the platform.
 
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#9
If I've learned anything, it's to not get your hopes up about something like that. Again, I don't care and I didn't have my hopes up, but I would rather pay for a character that I as a Nintendo fan would enjoy. If we were talking about Playstation Allstars, then sure Joker would be a great fit.


Both Metal Gear and Final Fantasy had beginnings on Nintendo consoles at least, BUT their latest and greatest games still haven't come to the Switch, so my point still partially applies to them. And based on that, I have 0 reason to expect Persona 5 to ever come to Switch. This Musou spinoff may well be all we get. In which case, I couldn't care less about Joker and I'd rather the DLC character have been someone that a Nintendo fan would actually appreciate. That is my point.
You're still jumping the gun bruh

They're gonna reveal P5 for Switch down the road this year. Just have some patience
 

Mewtwo

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#10
You're still jumping the gun bruh

They're gonna reveal P5 for Switch down the road this year. Just have some patience
Don't call me "bruh" and don't be so sure. I don't need to have patience because like I said, if you read my posts, I don't care about Joker/Persona 5 and I don't plan on playing any Persona games. But Nintendo/Atlus have made that pretty easy for me at least.
 
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#11
Stuff like this is easy to say if you don't happen to have any third party wants... try telling this to any third party support thread.

When people bring up history with Nintendo while discussing their wants, it's usually just adding icing to the main reasons. Sakurai added Joker because he really liked Persona 5, any marketing benefits are secondary. If that was the main purpose I'd imagine we'd get more stuff from Royal, even if just a song like with Metal Gear 4. And don't underestimate the amount of people who buy Nintendo platforms largely, or even solely, to play Smash.
 
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#12
It's weird to compare FF7 coming to the switch when Cloud started in smash 4, which was quite a while ago.

Anyway, it's a tad odd that persona 5 wasn't announced for the switch, but I'm sure it'll come eventually.
At the very least it can bring some playstation fans to nintendo as well. Maybe not as many as cloud, but persona 5 is also fresher and a cool style even for people who havent played it.

Plus nintendo and sakurai can do what they want. If it doesnt sell as much as they wanted im sure they'll plan differently in the future.
 
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UserKev

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#13
We definitely share opinions. A itch in me really wish Nintendo made Smash strictly Nintendo, the dream is so incredible. I just have a strong bias that Sakurai sort of betrayed the series, what it was really supposed to represent, how it could have flourished on its own.

But watch everyone state "Smash has become a celebration of gaming history."

It really hasn't.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#15
It’s really weird that they didn’t announce, or even tease P5 for the Switch. It kinda makes me mad too, because I’ll probably cave and buy the $20 PS4 version, and if they DO release it for the switch I’m not gunna start my 100 hour game over (even though I want it to be portable more than anything).

It’s just odd they’d release a character who only has one minor spin-off game on a Nintendo console. I hear the argument of Sakurai saying “I like Joker, let’s put Joker in.” But it’s so much more complicated than that that there has to be something there on a marketing level. I’m just confused why they didn’t cash in on this.
 

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#16
So the news finally dropped for P5S, which turns out to NOT be a Persona 5 Switch port, but a Musou/Warriors spinoff. As someone who will probably never own a Playstation console, please remind me why I should care about Joker again? Why should I purchase him in SSBU? Why should I buy this Persona 5 Scramble?
To answer your self imposed questions, why should it matter to us if you ultimately care about Joker or decide to purchase him or not?

Nintendo is my gaming platform of choice. Why should the Smash DLC packs go to characters that don't have anything to do with Nintendo and won't be coming to Nintendo anyway (aside from spinoffs I guess)? Is a Playstation owner going to purchase a Switch and Super Smash Bros. because Joker is in it now? I would bet the only reason a lot of people bought Joker in Smash is because they assumed they would also be able to play Persona 5 on Switch at some point. At least in Corrin's and Bayonetta's cases, we had characters whose games we could play on the same platform, and Bayonetta is basically a 2nd party character at this point anyway. Even Cloud's game eventually came to Switch (though no news about the FF7 remake). I feel like the rest of the DLC packs are going to be 3rd party characters whose games may or may not come to Switch and who will probably never show up again in Smash anyway. Instead of that, why couldn't we get the remainder of the fan-favorite and fan-requested characters, that Nintendo fans, the ones who own and play Super Smash Bros., will want to purchase?
Simple: To attract more audiences to Smash. As a matter of fact, people who do not own a Nintendo console may suddenly find themselves enticed to get a Switch and Smash because of the character(s) appearing in the game. That actually has happened before with Cloud and Ryu. It happened to me with Marvel vs Capcom 3 as well.
There is also a certain overlap of Nintendo and Sony fans who buy game consoles from both companies and the Playstation has plenty of RPGs, so Nintendo knew the demographic they were targeting with Joker.

Since the goal is to attract more people who aren't that much into Smash or Nintendo games, a character like Geno or Waluigi wouldn't cut it as there is a good chance that that people who actually want them already bought Smash Ultimate. Add to that that there aren't that many must-have "fan favorite" characters left for Nintendo to add into Smash, so additions like Joker make more sense.

Overall, the reasoning you present on why third parties like him don't belong is very poor and narrow minded. You assume that people only bought Joker because they were expecting Persona 5 for Switch; but truth of the matter is that a lot of those people probably already played that game and simply like the character enough, others simply like the way he plays and others might eventually be looking to get into the series one way or another. I doubt people bought Cloud or Ryu expecting to get their games at a certain point but more because of the love for the character. Personally, I've never played a Persona game but I like playing as Joker which is why I bought him. I did play Shin Megami Tensei IV for 3DS, which the Persona series is a spin off of. I own a PS4 so if I feel like it I may pick up Persona 5 for it eventually, but I'm not in a hurry.
People also knew what they were getting when they purchased the Joker DLC so the whole deal was transparent. Don't know why it should matter if the game becomes available or not for Switch.

You said that you didn't care about Joker before nor now, so that's honestly quite the whole topic in a nutshell. How can you care for a character in a series you haven't tried playing? If you have no interest towards Joker whatsoever just don't purchase him and let it be. Others who are interested certainly will. It's your money and whatever you do with it is your own business.

But watch everyone state "Smash has become a celebration of gaming history."

It really hasn't.
It actually has, to a certain extent.
 
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#17
Nah third parties are the only hype characters left, with 2-3 exceptions from the Nintendo camp.

I would rather have the main protagonist of an iconic third party series/title than Nintendo's D listers.
Ding ding, there's the answer. :p

Realistically, beyond the ever-present newcomers for series with changing casts like Pokémon and Fire Emblem, very few Nintendo characters remain who can theoretically match potential third party additions. It's pretty much Dixie, (Captain) Toad/Toadette, Waluigi, and MAYBE Bandana Dee, alongside maybe ARMS and Rhythm Heaven for new series (I'd say Dillon too, but considering the last game kinda bombed, the franchise may be in limbo now).

Compare this to the relative wealth of third party additions and it isn't even a contest. Like, I love Henry Fleming from Code Name: S.T.E.A.M. and would love to see him playable, but I'm not going to pretend he'd be even close to someone like, say, Lara Croft or Doomguy.
 
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#18
I personally couldn't care less about third-party characters. I give them a try and that's it. I don't feel compelled to go out and purchase a game from such series. There's something about SSBU that feels as though the original direction has changed, and I'm not quite certain what it is.
 

LightKnight

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#19
I don't play a wealth of games nor in the past that many Nintendo games so to me it really doesn't matter who is in the game so long as they are a unique addition to the roster in gameplay whether thats first-party or third-party. Which means I'd buy all the characters just to have more variety and depth to the game regardless of whether I have any connection to the characters or not.
3rd party characters are a fairly nice way to advertise the game..
 

Mewtwo

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#20
To answer your self imposed questions, why should it matter to us if you ultimately care about Joker or decide to purchase him or not?
You didn't answer my questions at all, and instead asked a tangential question of your own that only serves to show your lack of perspective on this topic, as well as a lack of comprehension.
Simple: To attract more audiences to Smash. As a matter of fact, people who do not own a Nintendo console may suddenly find themselves enticed to get a Switch and Smash because of the character(s) appearing in the game. That actually has happened before with Cloud and Ryu. It happened to me with Marvel vs Capcom 3 as well.
There is also a certain overlap of Nintendo and Sony fans who buy game consoles from both companies and the Playstation has plenty of RPGs, so Nintendo knew the demographic they were targeting with Joker.

Since the goal is to attract more people who aren't that much into Smash or Nintendo games, a character like Geno or Waluigi wouldn't cut it as there is a good chance that that people who actually want them already bought Smash Ultimate. Add to that that there aren't that many must-have "fan favorite" characters left for Nintendo to add into Smash, so additions like Joker make more sense.
Thank you for your small anecdotal evidence to support your "simple" conclusion. I haven't heard of anyone who bought Smash for a DLC character, but perhaps you have more stories to tell.

I will concede, however, that Joker might attract a Playstation owner to purchase a copy of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate more than Waluigi would. But it seems quite the gamble to expect gamers to make that jump. I like Mario and Link but I also don't purchase every single game with Mario and Link in it. And some people don't like fighting games. I can't tell you how many people mention that they don't like "Musou" games, for example.

It seems to come down Nintendo/Sakurai not knowing who their audience is. They may want every gamer in the world to purchase Super Smash Bros. but that's not realistic. Sakurai may claim that Smash has become a celebration of gaming history in general, but that's really not true when you look closely. It's making a somewhat half-hearted attempt, yes, but if that were really true then it wouldn't cater so much to Nintendo fans. And why shouldn't it cater to Nintendo fans? It's a Nintendo-owned series on Nintendo platforms. Do you really think characters like Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, Roy, Corrin, Captain Falcon, Piranha Plant etc. are pulling their weight representing general gaming history? More like Nintendo niche history.

Adding Joker in Smash should do two things: potentially attract Persona 5 players to Smash, and potentially get Smash players to play Persona 5. Okay, maybe there are some P5 players out there not already excited enough to play P5R on their PS4, and/or P5S on their PS4, and they just really want to play as Joker in Super Smash Bros. as well so they purchase a Switch and Super Smash Bros. and the DLC for Joker. Maybe those people exist. But without putting Persona 5 on Switch, Nintendo is telling Smash players who are now getting introduced to a foreign character, that they should go buy a Playstation in order to fully appreciate that character. Makes great business sense to me, if you're Sony anyway. Because right now Joker in Smash is an advertisement for Playstation 4, in one of Nintendo's most premier games.

And apart from that, as a Nintendo fan who doesn't own a PS4 already, not only does this do nothing for me, but it actually goes against me in the sense that what could have been a DLC character that I would be excited about and happily purchase, is now wasted potential. Would I give Nintendo money for Waluigi? Yeah probably. And I know a lot of other people who would. Am I going to pay for Joker? No. Again, why should I? Where's the incentive? Why are spinoffs coming without main games? Does anyone in the industry seriously think that a significant number of people buy spinoffs without playing the main games? Persona 5 Scramble is going to sell terribly on Switch.

Overall, the reasoning you present on why third parties like him don't belong is very poor and narrow minded. You assume that people only bought Joker because they were expecting Persona 5 for Switch; but truth of the matter is that a lot of those people probably already played that game and simply like the character enough, others simply like the way he plays and others might eventually be looking to get into the series one way or another. I doubt people bought Cloud or Ryu expecting to get their games at a certain point but more because of the love for the character. Personally, I've never played a Persona game but I like playing as Joker which is why I bought him. I did play Shin Megami Tensei IV for 3DS, which the Persona series is a spin off of. I own a PS4 so if I feel like it I may pick up Persona 5 for it eventually, but I'm not in a hurry.
People also knew what they were getting when they purchased the Joker DLC so the whole deal was transparent. Don't know why it should matter if the game becomes available or not for Switch.
I reject your subjective opinion on my argument's reasoning, and making such a statement does not make it fact, nor does it add to the discussion. You also quite subjectively state what the "truth of the matter" is regarding why people would purchase the Joker DLC. Based on everything I had read and seen online, I still stand by my view that practically everyone assumed Persona 5 would come to Switch at some point, though I did not say that that's why they purchased the Joker DLC. Yes, some people just buy the DLC regardless, or had already purchased the fighter pass. Although in your case I'm not sure how you got to like playing as Joker before buying him, but whatever.

"Don't know why it should matter if the game [Persona 5] becomes available or not for Switch." ..... I'm just going to highlight that quote of yours because I think it makes enough of its own statement without additional commentary.
You said that you didn't care about Joker before nor now, so that's honestly quite the whole topic in a nutshell. How can you care for a character in a series you haven't tried playing? If you have no interest towards Joker whatsoever just don't purchase him and let it be. Others who are interested certainly will. It's your money and whatever you do with it is your own business.
Wow, I didn't think you would end up making my own point for me, but I guess that can happen when you don't really understand what you're arguing.
 
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#21
I bought Joker simply for having all the characters. The character is fun, but I only tried him out on day one, played a few matches as him against my brother, and haven't used him since. Half of the music is good in my opinion, and the stage is interesting. I also thought Persona 5 would be for the Switch, and perhaps it will be. However, hearing that it's not even coming for the Switch is strange to me. I've never been fond of third-party companies just giving Nintendo spin-offs. This seems to be a recurring thing with Final Fantasy.
 

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#22
Instead of that, why couldn't we get the remainder of the fan-favorite and fan-requested characters, that Nintendo fans, the ones who own and play Super Smash Bros., will want to purchase?
like who? besides, isnt there 4 slots left anyways?

also you might as well just replace "Nintendo fans, the ones who own and play Super Smash Bros." with "myself" because buddy if you really think smash community does not care about joker then your head is completely out of the community lmao
 
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#23
Why doesn't Steve count? Minecraft is on Nintendo systems with a Nintendo-exclusive Mario pack. There's even an official Creeper 3DS and Steve & Alex have appeared on the official Nintendo website on one or two of the activity pages for young folk.

Anyway, personally I could care less if they have to do with Nintendo, but to be fair every character I want has had their main game(s) on a Nintendo system so eh...I still wouldn't care. Bring in Master Chief, whoever, even Goku of all characters, I don't care one way or the other if I don't actively want them.
 
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#24
I gotta admit I still find Joker a really weird choice as far as third party picks go. Not awful, just really weird.

The stage is pretty funky, the music tracks aren't bad, and Joker as a character is alright, but as someone who's come in not knowing anything about the character I can't say I find him super unique from his Smash moveset or blown away to the point where I have to go play a Persona game or even purchase the character myself. I prefer the stage to the character which makes me a little disappointed.

I may eventually get this new Warriors game, but that's more because I enjoy warriors games. I didn't know a hecking lot about Fire Emblem outside Awakening, but Fire Emblem Warriors turned out to be one of my most played games on the Switch.
 
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#25
This sudden requirement of needing to promote an upcoming game to be in Smash is weird to me, especially when that was part of the reason Corrin was controversial when revealed. Are we trying to encourage Nintendo to be as selfish as possible and only include characters that they can capitalize on the most?
 

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#26
You didn't answer my questions at all, and instead asked a tangential question of your own that only serves to show your lack of perspective on this topic, as well as a lack of comprehension.
Wasn't exactly trying to answer them. Thought their premise was pointless.

Thank you for your small anecdotal evidence to support your "simple" conclusion. I haven't heard of anyone who bought Smash for a DLC character, but perhaps you have more stories to tell.
Anytime, bud.

I will concede, however, that Joker might attract a Playstation owner to purchase a copy of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate more than Waluigi would. But it seems quite the gamble to expect gamers to make that jump. I like Mario and Link but I also don't purchase every single game with Mario and Link in it. And some people don't like fighting games. I can't tell you how many people mention that they don't like "Musou" games, for example.

It seems to come down Nintendo/Sakurai not knowing who their audience is. They may want every gamer in the world to purchase Super Smash Bros. but that's not realistic. Sakurai may claim that Smash has become a celebration of gaming history in general, but that's really not true when you look closely. It's making a somewhat half-hearted attempt, yes, but if that were really true then it wouldn't cater so much to Nintendo fans. And why shouldn't it cater to Nintendo fans? It's a Nintendo-owned series on Nintendo platforms. Do you really think characters like Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, Roy, Corrin, Captain Falcon, Piranha Plant etc. are pulling their weight representing general gaming history? More like Nintendo niche history.
It is a gamble indeed, but one that can potentially pay off more in the end than playing it safe.
Most people who go into Smash are fans of most of the franchises in it already, so an alternative route that Nintendo took was to expand and reach into other demographics. Getting every gamer on the planet is unrealistic, but widening your audience is still very much possible.

The game is still a celebration of gaming history to an extent as it includes recognizable faces from the gaming industry. It's silly to attempt to use niche characters to downplay this aspect because alongside them we still have the likes of Mario, Link, Pikachu, DK, Samus, Kirby, Sonic, Cloud, Ryu, Duck Hunt, Wario, Pacman, Megaman and Snake. And regarding those niche choices, niche Nintendo history is still a part of Nintendo history. A roster of only stars with little else is boring. Having fighters like Ness, Captain Falcon, Lucas or Piranha Plant serve as a means of adding variety and keeping the roster fresh. A celebration of gaming doesn't stop being one just because you have those types of characters.

And as a Nintendo product, the game already caters enough to Nintendo fans. Despite the third party love, the roster has plenty of Nintendo properties to choose from and they even added long-time requested fan favorites like Ridley and K. Rool, so I can't see a good reason why a fan would feel left out. There are other interests in between besides your own, so I don't see a good reason to not add a third party like Joker. And there are still 4 DLC left, so it's too early to pass judgement as well.

Adding Joker in Smash should do two things: potentially attract Persona 5 players to Smash, and potentially get Smash players to play Persona 5. Okay, maybe there are some P5 players out there not already excited enough to play P5R on their PS4, and/or P5S on their PS4, and they just really want to play as Joker in Super Smash Bros. as well so they purchase a Switch and Super Smash Bros. and the DLC for Joker. Maybe those people exist. But without putting Persona 5 on Switch, Nintendo is telling Smash players who are now getting introduced to a foreign character, that they should go buy a Playstation in order to fully appreciate that character. Makes great business sense to me, if you're Sony anyway. Because right now Joker in Smash is an advertisement for Playstation 4, in one of Nintendo's most premier games.
Oh, those people do exist.
And rather than seeing it as something that indirectly benefits Sony, it's more of a partnership that benefits Nintendo and Atlus on a long term basis. Obviously, it's a win for Atlus as they makes the Persona games for the PS, but they are also worked on Shin Megami Tensei IV and IV Final as 3DS exclusives, and are currently working on Shin Megami Tensei V as a Switch exclusive. So this could also be a sign goodwill between their partnership with Nintendo. So yeah, I agree that it seems like good business.
And we can't discard the fact that a Persona 5 port might still happen.

And apart from that, as a Nintendo fan who doesn't own a PS4 already, not only does this do nothing for me, but it actually goes against me in the sense that what could have been a DLC character that I would be excited about and happily purchase, is now wasted potential. Would I give Nintendo money for Waluigi? Yeah probably. And I know a lot of other people who would. Am I going to pay for Joker? No. Again, why should I? Where's the incentive? Why are spinoffs coming without main games? Does anyone in the industry seriously think that a significant number of people buy spinoffs without playing the main games? Persona 5 Scramble is going to sell terribly on Switch.
Short answer: world doesn't revolve around you, bud.
As mentioned before, there are other interests in between besides your own. It's fine if you don't like him, but there are plenty of others who will. Topic would be more accurate if it was called "Joker doesn't belong as a third party because I don't care/like him enough". Way better than giving a slew of wishy-washy excuses of why he shouldn't be in.

I reject your subjective opinion on my argument's reasoning, and making such a statement does not make it fact, nor does it add to the discussion. You also quite subjectively state what the "truth of the matter" is regarding why people would purchase the Joker DLC. Based on everything I had read and seen online, I still stand by my view that practically everyone assumed Persona 5 would come to Switch at some point, though I did not say that that's why they purchased the Joker DLC. Yes, some people just buy the DLC regardless, or had already purchased the fighter pass. Although in your case I'm not sure how you got to like playing as Joker before buying him, but whatever.
Yeah, about that. That's bull****:
I would bet the only reason a lot of people bought Joker in Smash is because they assumed they would also be able to play Persona 5 on Switch at some point.


Wow, I didn't think you would end up making my own point for me, but I guess that can happen when you don't really understand what you're arguing.
Haha, yeah I did made your point.
With five minutes of self reflection, you probably would have too. But here we are buddy, since you were clueless enough to make this thread. That's more telling of you than me.
 

Jaro235

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
147
#27
I personally really like these obscure 3rd party characters because it gives me a chance to learn about a potential great game that I have never played or heard of. I thought Joker was a very random choice for Smash, but after playing around with him, listening to Persona music, and playing on his stage, I actually really want to play Persona 5. I would rather have unique 3rd party characters added to Smash than random Nintendo characters that I have probably little knowledge about. I would rather have Joker in than another random Pokémon or enemy from a Nintendo game or another Fire Emblem character.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,762
#28
I do think that more obscure and new ones like Bayonetta and Joker should be left out as well as ones completely irrelevant to Nintendo like Cloud, however, I'm not completely against them as I love Sonic and Mega Man's inclusion. I mean, Mega Man started out on NES and most if not all of his games are available on Nintendo systems and about four spin offs that were exclusively on Nintendo systems. In fact, Mega Man is probably the most fitting third party. Sonic likewise for all the console wars nostalgia. Also, he and Pac-Man are the only ones to cross over with Mario. In fact, he even got Zelda and Yoshi DLC before so....
 

Coolboy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
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#29
my answer in short.. then don't buy them -.- i find this a bit of a selfish thread tbh,
hey i really dislike Piranha Plant and just for that reason i didn't want to get him but at least i am not going around saying why characters like him shouldn't be in smash at all.

i am a proud Sora supporter and i will be until all DLC is revealed! but if it was your decision he wouldn't even get that chance at all..like many other characters people are supporting..do not be suprised if people get defensive :l
 
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Fisher

Certain.
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
14,773
#30
Third parties are more important to Nintendo than even some of their own franchises.

So to say ''I don't think they belong" is essentially saying ''Well, **** a huge part of Nintendo's history."

And like someone said before? I'd rather have an important hit third party character than ''Hi, I'm Lanky Kong."
 

Arthur97

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,762
#31
Stuff like this is easy to say if you don't happen to have any third party wants... try telling this to any third party support thread.

When people bring up history with Nintendo while discussing their wants, it's usually just adding icing to the main reasons. Sakurai added Joker because he really liked Persona 5, any marketing benefits are secondary. If that was the main purpose I'd imagine we'd get more stuff from Royal, even if just a song like with Metal Gear 4. And don't underestimate the amount of people who buy Nintendo platforms largely, or even solely, to play Smash.
And that is one of my biggest issues. I really don't like the idea of Sakurai choosing just based off what he likes and just to have an excuse to work with those characters. Sakurai personally seems uninterested with Nintendo itself, but it's his gateway to all these others so he keeps coming back. Well, that and he seems like a bit of a control freak.
I personally couldn't care less about third-party characters. I give them a try and that's it. I don't feel compelled to go out and purchase a game from such series. There's something about SSBU that feels as though the original direction has changed, and I'm not quite certain what it is.
To be honest, I'm not sure Sakurai does either. He seems to think the...gameplay is how it is defined? Don't get me wrong, that's a major part, but...it's not the only platform fighter.
Third parties are more important to Nintendo than even some of their own franchises.

So to say ''I don't think they belong" is essentially saying ''Well, **** a huge part of Nintendo's history."

And like someone said before? I'd rather have an important hit third party character than ''Hi, I'm Lanky Kong."
Joker is not one of them.
 

Arthur97

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,762
#33
Persona is a pretty popular franchise.

Joker is it's latest star.

If you think Corrin is an All Star for example or the recent Fire Emblem lord getting in.

The same **** applies to someone like Joker.
No, because Persona is not important to Nintendo in the least. So not putting him is hardly a disservice to Nintendo like your previous post would have us believe. In fact, few of them are. Mega Man, Sonic, and maybe Simon, Bayonetta (I hate admitting that) and Ryu. Snake and Cloud are more Sony than anything. In fact, Cloud essentially represents a massive slap in the face from Square. Yet he's here in this Nintendo brawler for...reasons.

Look, you can try to bring in other people from other consoles with these stunts, but how many people are going to buy a console and a game just to play Cloud in Smash? Compare that to all the fans that already have both that would love some more first party content.
 

Fisher

Certain.
Joined
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Messages
14,773
#34
You're silly to think that anyone else save maybe a generic Chocobo or a class like Black Mage would have repped Final Fantasy in Smash.

Which you know is a big game in Nintendo's history. He's the poster child hero of the franchise at this point. Probably forever, unless some FF comes out that somehow manage to replace FF7 in the eyes of it's bazillion fans.

Cloud was the absolute right choice.

And to return to Persona? It directly ties to Atlus who has been a good friend of Nintendo for ages. Soooo....yeah I'd say that gives Persona and Joker the right to be in Smash.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,762
#36
You're silly to think that anyone else save maybe a generic Chocobo or a class like Black Mage would have repped Final Fantasy in Smash.

Which you know is a big game in Nintendo's history. He's the poster child hero of the franchise at this point. Probably forever, unless some FF comes out that somehow manage to replace FF in the eyes of it's bazillion fans.

Cloud was the absolute right choice.

And to return to Persona? It directly ties to Atlus who has been a good friend of Nintendo for ages. Soooo....yeah I'd say that gives Persona and Joker the right to be in Smash.
Oh, yes, wonderful enough friends to not put their biggest hit on their console (their very well received console I might add) even though they were gracious enough to put this guy in Smash. Really feeling the love.

Then don't put any FF. It may have been important once, but Square really burned that bridge and has not done much to mend it save some old ports and spin offs. Even Octopath didn't retain its exclusivity. That's another thing, some of these third parties just seem like raw deals. Here, we'll put your character in this super prestigious game. And they don't seem keen on returning the favor.
I'm not trying to argue anyones points but I just wanted to put it out there and remind everyone that Joker and the next 4 DLC characters are more or less Nintendo picks..
Which is on Nintendo for the raw deal thing. They should demand something in return since they should have all the power. Also, Sakurai chose from a list. Wouldn't surprise me if he picked around any first parties.
 

BZL8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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305
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Someplace, you know?
Switch FC
208233413838
#37
After Snake, Cloud, and now Joker, I am amused that some still believe that third-party characters are cross-promotional and that Nintendo, in a way, needs to benefit from them, whether that be history-related or money-related.

I think the reason for third party characters that aren't associated with Nintendo getting in simply boils down to Rule Of Cool. I mean what do you think gets people (and I am talking about people outside the general Smash and Nintendo fandoms) more excited and will likely sell more: K Rool (absolutely nothing against him) fighting Mario or Cloud fighting Mario?
 

Fisher

Certain.
Joined
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Messages
14,773
#38
''Don't put any FF then"

One of the most influential JRPGs gets no love in the most massive video game crossover, because ''OOOOHWOWOWO SONY."

Like you can call Snake and Cloud Sony characters all you want, but they aren't.

They are Konami and Square characters in franchises that made their debuts on Nintendo systems.
 
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Fisher

Certain.
Joined
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Messages
14,773
#40
We just got like ten Final Fantasy games, lmao.
Persona 5 Warriors....

I mean Scrabble...

I mean Scramble also says hello.

And there's still the possibility of Royal later coming to Switch as well.

It's kinda hilarious to see this because every third party company/franchise represented is one with strong ties to Nintendo who is also making games for the Switch.

And don't feed me that ''BUT EXCLUSIVES" bull****, because nothing save first party franchises are exclusive these days. The day of the exclusive third party franchise are over.
 
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