Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

[Nutty Sponge]

Is the general public buying and playing Super Smash Bros. and purchasing DLC for it? What percentage of Smash players do you think are primarily Nintendo fans? Do you think there are more Nintendo fans who would enjoy playing as Joker over Skull Kid? I mean, before you make such a bold claim, at least conduct a poll or something.

Yes, I believe more people would care about playing as Joker seeing that a lot of the smash players are more casual gamers and may not know who skull kid is.


Also why even complain about this? there are much more Nintendo first party characters than 3rd.

 

[Cosmic77]

Yes, I believe more people would care about playing as Joker seeing that a lot of the smash players are more casual gamers and may not know who skull kid is.

Actually, I think it's the other way around. I'm pretty sure casuals would recognize Skull Kid more than they would Joker. Majora's Mask is a pretty big icon in Zelda and gaming as a whole.

 

[Nutty Sponge]

Actually, I think it's the other way around. I'm pretty sure casuals would recognize Skull Kid more than they would Joker. Majora's Mask is a pretty big icon in Zelda and gaming as a whole.

I disagree, I'm not saying that Skull Kid isn't recognizable but with all the stuff about P5 the last 2 years or so, Joker has become quite iconic. While Skull Kid hasn't made an appearance since Majora's Mask (May be wrong on that). Hell I think my own parents would know who Joker is before knowing Skull Kid lmao

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I disagree, I'm not saying that Skull Kid isn't recognizable but with all the stuff about P5 the last 2 years or so, Joker has become quite iconic. While Skull Kid hasn't made an appearance since Majora's Mask (May be wrong on that). Hell I think my own parents would know who Joker is before knowing Skull Kid lmao

The Skull Kid reappeared in Twilight Princess but I feel that's kind of missing the point. I'd love Skull Kid but people don't like Skull Kid unless he's wearing the mask. Problem is he doesn't fight and would need an entire moveset made from scratch, which isn't easy to sell people on as you can best sell people on ideas based on stuff the character does. For example, when Joker was first confirmed I thought "Ok, he has a Stand, that alone should be cool"

 

[Captain Shades]

Wow this thread has teetered off, but I’d like to reply as I’m a huge supporter of 3rd party even though nothing about my interests would give off that. I really only play Nintendo since I got a Wii, and I’d say a majority of the 3rd parties in Smash are from games I haven’t played, but I love the inclusion.

I see so much about how Snake, Joker, and Cloud don’t fit, but honestly that’s what compels me to like them more than most of the other franchises. Snake is so radically different from the entire cast that he in turn becomes one of the most fitting. He’s so much fun to have and adds this realistic military and rated M style we wouldn’t have had otherwise. Snake, along with Bayonetta, depicts everything Nintendo is against to a point in which I don’t want to lose this part of Smash’s identity. Nintendo finally putting their big boy pants up and having rated M characters shaking hands with Mario is fantastic.

I feel that 3rd parties really show the gaming landscape as a whole, which I heavily appreciate as Nintendo fans should get out of the bubble every now and again and try new franchises that are radically different from Nintendo’s. When it comes to 3rd party I want heavy hitters that are completely unusual in design. I want Minecraft as that’s a genre not yet depicted in Smash, and is a game with such a unique art style to boot. I want Doom as it’d be cool to see a big time gory rated M mascot join the fight. Heck, I’d even be okay with someone like Scorpion from MK joining as at least it’s different.

I actually like many of the non-Nintendo picks at this point for 3rd parties as well, as I feel the more Nintendo lab.ed ones are so nothing or fit to much to be unique. Shantae, Shovel Knight, and Banjo are all very Nintendo DNA infused franchises to the point where they don’t feel like they’d offer anything radically new or different and in terms of popularity in the main stream they are certainly on the more obscure side. The only one I actually really care for is Rayman and the Rabbids, I don’t know why, but Rayman has always been a very strange series and the Rabbids are pretty mainstream all things considered.

 

[SmashChu]

None of those characters you listed would excite me more than most third party additions.

I don't play ARMS or Splatoon (Octoling most likely being a semi-clone at most to boot unless something changes), Astral Chain could bomb (remember when Codename Steam was supposed to be a new huge thing?), a mobile gaming character isn't exactly top of the list for console owners, Sword and Shield will be forgotten by the time the next Smash game launches nor can we predict if any the future mons will be a big hit necessarily, agreed on BWD and Toad (prefer ordinary over Captain personally) as they are part of the 2-3 I vaguely mentioned.

As for Rex, that ship has sailed unless wave 2 happens and saves him. DLC spirit board and the mii costume being a purchase bonus really put a dent on Xenoblade 2 in Smash.

That's one thing if you wouldn't get excited, but you said that there are only D listers left (not true) and that they wouldn't be "hyped" (also not true). You can dislike the Nintendo characters but a lot of people play Smash for the Nintendo factor (see: this thread)

 

[PhantomShab]

We've now hit a point where you're in the wrong for wanting Nintendo characters in a Nintendo fighting game.

Honk honk I guess.

 

[The DanMan051]

We've now hit a point where you're in the wrong for wanting Nintendo characters in a Nintendo fighting game.

Honk honk I guess.

Way to misrepresent things.

The point isn't that it's wrong to desire them; the point is that 3rd party characters generate far more hype/interest and revenue on average than 1st party characters at this point, making them a win-win for both Nintendo and the gaming public.

That's one thing if you wouldn't get excited, but you said that there are only D listers left (not true) and that they wouldn't be "hyped" (also not true). You can dislike the Nintendo characters but a lot of people play Smash for the Nintendo factor (see: this thread)

...Wow... you really... can't debate at all.

A dozen people in a thread on a fan forum count as "a lot" compared to the reactions of the overall gaming public?
The only likely 1st party characters are from upcoming games, and even then something tells me Nintendo would want to push the likes of Astral Chain more than most other options.

 

[Nemuresu]

That's one thing if you wouldn't get excited, but you said that there are only D listers left (not true) and that they wouldn't be "hyped" (also not true). You can dislike the Nintendo characters but a lot of people play Smash for the Nintendo factor (see: this thread)

Let me just throw this:

A thread with less than 20 people whining about guests versus dozens praising Joker. Let that just sink in.

We've now hit a point where you're in the wrong for wanting Nintendo characters in a Nintendo fighting game.

Honk honk I guess.

Wanting Nintendo characters is not wrong at all. Now, opening a thread where the main discussion is whether a guest character is a good idea or not is opening itself to a lot of discussion, more so with the added topics on top of the main one (investing money into every single franchise that appears in Smash, living in comfort zones, what crowd Smash is meant to appeal, etc.).

 

[lucasla]

I think we are on a state that the most praised existing Nintendo characters are already well represented in Smash, and add more Nintendo characters that would make people excited about them is kind of hard... Of course that there are a few that could be inserted and people would like, but most of the most requested characters like Dixie Kong, Geno, Toad... they wouldnt really make any difference to bring new public for the game. And Nintendo doesnt really create many series and characters every year. The bigger ones are already on the game. Many characters people ask looks like they want more to have the feeling of fill the gaps that exists with some characters like Dixie, and Toad that should be there to complete the Donkey Kong or the Mario team. But these characters would add next to zero appealing for new players, cause these games are already well represented. Others characters like Geno are just really known by a minority of people that played Mario RPG more than two decades ago, so even if they add him, it would also do next to nothing to new audiences, so why the developers would even bother with more content for old players that already have too much? If Nintendo lacks some new relevant faces, and there is space for other series, I'm totally fine with 3rd party characters being inserted in the game.

 

[TheRockingGoomba]

The characters choices......are fun
if their not fun, why bother?

 

[Tino]

This is an unhealthy, selfish and boring thread it makes me wanna take a snooze.

All I can say is this: Expect the other 4 characters like Joker to be in Smash. They could all end up being third parties as well, which I'm fine with that.

 

[Nutty Sponge]

The Skull Kid reappeared in Twilight Princess but I feel that's kind of missing the point. I'd love Skull Kid but people don't like Skull Kid unless he's wearing the mask. Problem is he doesn't fight and would need an entire moveset made from scratch, which isn't easy to sell people on as you can best sell people on ideas based on stuff the character does. For example, when Joker was first confirmed I thought "Ok, he has a Stand, that alone should be cool"

Indeed, Joker is more interesting in my opinion. I don't know much about Majora's Mask so I don't know of a move set for him, I can only really think of the stuff he does as an assist trophy, but that would be kind of op? Yare Yare Daze

 

[ProfPeanut]

As long as first-parties fail to offer more compelling moveset ideas than third-parties, expect to see more 3rd parties doing more good for Smash than any D-lister would have.

 

[Gallowglass]

Actually, I think it's the other way around. I'm pretty sure casuals would recognize Skull Kid more than they would Joker. Majora's Mask is a pretty big icon in Zelda and gaming as a whole.

I agree with this. I think casual gamers who have Nintendo game would be more incline to recognize a character who had been featured in many Nintendo titles like recently Majora's Mask 3DS and Hyrule Warriors than some character who's main game isn't on a Nintendo platform. I mean looking at the threads here how big was Joker's thread (if he had any) vs. Dixie Kong, Skull Kid, Impa, and especially Geno's.

Now with that said the only benefit I see them doing this is to draw more people towards Nintendo. As I have mention before I have a friend who loves playing Persona and Metal Gear and with these characters now available in Smash he is kind of considering getting a Switch. The problem with this idea is that those Persona and Metal Gear games are still not on the Switch and if they are he's already played them on the other consoles.

 

[osby]

I agree with this. I think casual gamers who have Nintendo game would be more incline to recognize a character who had been featured in many Nintendo titles like recently Majora's Mask 3DS and Hyrule Warriors than some character who's main game isn't on a Nintendo platform. I mean looking at the threads here how big was Joker's thread (if he had any) vs. Dixie Kong, Skull Kid, Impa, and especially Geno's.

A Smash speculation focused forum isn't the best place to measure where casual fans' interests lie.

 

[Gallowglass]

A Smash speculation focused forum isn't the best place to measure where casual fans' interests lie.

Do you have a better source?

 

[UserKev]

I'm completely turned off by the Erdrick rumor. I'm gonna assume we all that share opinions are just tired of Japanese companies. I'm anticipating with all the hope left in me that Sakurai will open the doors for Western third party, Rayman, Banjo, Scorpion, Dragonborn, Crash. Joker is not to blame but he's opened the doors for gimmicky Japanese characters. I want more creative entities.

 

[Opossum]

I'm completely turned off by the Erdrick rumor. I'm gonna assume we all that share opinions are just tired of Japanese companies. I'm anticipating with all the hope left in me that Sakurai will open the doors for Western third party, Rayman, Banjo, Scorpion, Dragonborn, Crash. Joker is not to blame but he's opened the doors for gimmicky Japanese characters. I want more creative entities.

That went from zero to xenophobic really fast.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm completely turned off by the Erdrick rumor. I'm gonna assume we all that share opinions are just tired of Japanese companies. I'm anticipating with all the hope left in me that Sakurai will open the doors for Western third party, Rayman, Banjo, Scorpion, Dragonborn, Crash. Joker is not to blame but he's opened the doors for gimmicky Japanese characters. I want more creative entities.

Why are you playing Smash then? Given that you're tired of Japanese companies and Nintendo is a Japanese company.

Edit. And just to add, Banjo is gimmicky given that he is pretty much a 2 on 1 fighter, Dohvakin would need to have cooldown on his shout specials to make him true to Skyrim which would make him gimmicky, Scorpion is from one of the most gimmicky fighting games at first due to fatalities and violence (which were the motives that made the fame popular) and now they have variations, I can give you Rayman and Crash as I cant think of gimmick although that doesnt mean they would be interesting.

 

[osby]

I'm completely turned off by the Erdrick rumor. I'm gonna assume we all that share opinions are just tired of Japanese companies. I'm anticipating with all the hope left in me that Sakurai will open the doors for Western third party, Rayman, Banjo, Scorpion, Dragonborn, Crash. Joker is not to blame but he's opened the doors for gimmicky Japanese characters. I want more creative entities.

Nintendo is a Japanese company. And American=/=creative.

Please don't lump other people together with your narrow minded world view and speak for yourself.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Do you have a better source?

The problem with Smash is that there's literally over 10 million fans so you can't find a common opinion for all those people. Characters who are popular requests on this website can be wildly different from characters who are popular requests on other websites. For example, Bayonetta was easily one of the biggest Smash demands you'd find on sites like tumblr and NeoGAF. Not to mention the character support threads being used as evidence doesn't really say much. The Lycanroc support thread for example regularly gets updated, does that mean the pokemon is a popular Smash choice? Nope, it's about 4-5 people who post regularly. Similarly, I saw some ass hat say that K.Rool and Ridley's popularity was especially noticeable as they literally had hundreds of pages on their Smashboards support groups when Ultimate was first teased, ignoring how those threads in particular were made over a year before Ultimate got teased and had people chat like it's a social thread

 

[The DanMan051]

I'm completely turned off by the Erdrick rumor. I'm gonna assume we all that share opinions are just tired of Japanese companies. I'm anticipating with all the hope left in me that Sakurai will open the doors for Western third party, Rayman, Banjo, Scorpion, Dragonborn, Crash. Joker is not to blame but he's opened the doors for gimmicky Japanese characters. I want more creative entities.

If you're tired of Japanese companies, then how many family members are being held hostage to force you to play and discuss Smash?

Nintendo is a Japanese company focused on the Japanese market and the people who enjoy those types of games.

And excuse me for asking how platforming cartoon characters are more creative than a gentleman thief archetype who can summon an aspect of his own psyche to enhance his own physical abilities?
Scorpion runs into the most trouble because Mortal Kombat hasn't even had a release in Japan since the 3rd game; the only character you listed that I think has a realistic shot is the Dovahkiin, who would probably be more of a weaponmaster archetype.

I'm amazed you could even make the assumption that you somehow speak for others when a quick glance at the avatars of users in this thread should've told you otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm completely turned off by the Erdrick rumor. I'm gonna assume we all that share opinions are just tired of Japanese companies. I'm anticipating with all the hope left in me that Sakurai will open the doors for Western third party, Rayman, Banjo, Scorpion, Dragonborn, Crash. Joker is not to blame but he's opened the doors for gimmicky Japanese characters. I want more creative entities.

No.
Just... no.
I may want Crash in Smash a lot... But not in the way you propose.

 

[UserKev]

That went from zero to xenophobic really fast.

Just like you and your bandwagon Likes, my dude.

Why are you playing Smash then? Given that you're tired of Japanese companies and Nintendo is a Japanese company.

Edit. And just to add, Banjo is gimmicky given that he is pretty much a 2 on 1 fighter, Dohvakin would need to have cooldown on his shout specials to make him true to Skyrim which would make him gimmicky, Scorpion is from one of the most gimmicky fighting games at first due to fatalities and violence (which were the motives that made the fame popular) and now they have variations, I can give you Rayman and Crash as I cant think of gimmick although that doesnt mean they would be interesting.

Haha I meant third party Japanese characters. I felt the need to reference them in separate sentences because I thought you would get it. Guess not tho. Western third parties would definitely deliver a fresher wave of characters even if they are gimmicky.

Nintendo is a Japanese company. And American=/=creative.

Please don't lump other people together with your narrow minded world view and speak for yourself.

Please read my post again, dud.

(Edit) S** Just got more notifications from The DanMan051 And JDCabrera. I know a swarm when I see it. .

 

[The DanMan051]

UserKev So not only are you trying to discredit people based on Likes (heaven forbid likeminded individuals like eachothers posts), you're now trying to en masse discredit the people calling you out as a "swarm".

That's some gamefaqs-tier behavior right there.

 

[Deleted member]

Just like you and your bandwagon Likes, my dude.


Haha I meant third party Japanese characters. I felt the need to reference them in separate sentences because I thought you would get it. Guess not tho. Western third parties would definitely deliver a fresher wave of characters even if they are gimmicky.



Please read my post again, dud.

(Edit) S** Just got more notifications from The DanMan051 And JDCabrera. I know a swarm when I see it. .

I don't really think its our job to interpret your argument if its poorly worded, plus now your argument changed from gimmicky to fresher which is totally different.

If you like more 3rd party western characters, because you just like them, I can respect that. But outright generalizing and making fake assumptions like gimmicks and such is something that I can't help but disagree and I will voice my opinion of it. If you have to put a Naruto image to indicate you can't handle multiple arguments against, that just means you can't really back your argument.

 

[Gallowglass]

The problem with Smash is that there's literally over 10 million fans so you can't find a common opinion for all those people. Characters who are popular requests on this website can be wildly different from characters who are popular requests on other websites. For example, Bayonetta was easily one of the biggest Smash demands you'd find on sites like tumblr and NeoGAF. Not to mention the character support threads being used as evidence doesn't really say much. The Lycanroc support thread for example regularly gets updated, does that mean the pokemon is a popular Smash choice? Nope, it's about 4-5 people who post regularly. Similarly, I saw some *** hat say that K.Rool and Ridley's popularity was especially noticeable as they literally had hundreds of pages on their Smashboards support groups when Ultimate was first teased, ignoring how those threads in particular were made over a year before Ultimate got teased and had people chat like it's a social thread

This is what statistics is use for. Of course we can't compile data of all 10 million+ fans and ask what their opinions are but we can gather groups of data and compile them to get a close estimate of trends we see. Of all the sources that I've looked at I haven't seen any supporting Joker. I have seen support for various Persona characters but all of them combine seem to shadow the Nintendo characters I've mention above. As for the K.Rool and Ridley I know that fan base has been around since people have been speculating for Brawl (possibly earlier) and the amount of discussion and debate for me only demonstrates their popularity and recognition.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This is what statistics is use for. Of course we can't compile data of all 10 million+ fans and ask what their opinions are but we can gather groups of data and compile them to get a close estimate of trends we see. Of all the sources that I've looked at I haven't seen any supporting Joker. I have seen support for various Persona characters but all of them combine seem to shadow the Nintendo characters I've mention above. As for the K.Rool and Ridley I know that fan base has been around since people have been speculating for Brawl (possibly earlier) and the amount of discussion and debate for me only demonstrates their popularity and recognition.

But despite this the community still gets heavily bubbled. Hell, Simon was a popular request, but would you have guessed the ballot got him in? Not at all as he seemed significantly less popular than the official ballot showed

 

[Dee Dude]

This thread feels like bait, I’m suprised how well it’s still going.

I can understand some people not liking the over-abundance of 3rd parties even though I personally disagree.

But don’t outright belong?

Nah, I may not have Waluigi or Bandana Dee but it’s still pretty grand to have popular icons like fighting together in a series like this and I want see to more with Rayman, Crash, and Banjo.

 

[Gallowglass]

But despite this the community still gets heavily bubbled. Hell, Simon was a popular request, but would you have guessed the ballot got him in? Not at all as he seemed significantly less popular than the official ballot showed

Do you have the official Smash ballot results? Because I've been looking for that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Do you have the official Smash ballot results? Because I've been looking for that.

There are none.

They were never released.

Only things we know for sure are that K.Rool, Simon and Ridley were popular requests while Chrom was popular in Japan while Dark Samus was popular in the west.

Interesting thing is that in our bubble, Simon was only middling popularity. His votes had to have come from the gaming community at large (which reacted very positively to his reveal).

Even more bizarrely, Ridley had good ballot results when the Smash community gave up on him after Smash 4.

 

[TheDuke54]

Haven't been here in a while and this thread really blew up, but I have to agree with the OP. Maybe not all the way...but every smash fighter who was included did have some history with Nintendo. Persona and Joker were the first inclusion that didn't. And it does seem a bit odd, that Nintendo would advertise games for their competitors. It seems like a bad business move since they'd hypothetically be drawing audience away to their competitors products. Unless Nintendo ends up getting a legit Persona game.

But if that is the case, you would think they'd announce that sooner rather than later. I didn't even know who Joker was. I kept hearing some say they wanted him in and I always assumed it was Batman's Joker. Sort of like how some were crying for Shrek and Goku. If Persona doesn't really get a legit title on the Switch I would want the other dlc to be stuff that is actually intended to drop on Nintendo.

Most of the fighters on Smash Ult that were revealed I liked or thought they were just alright, with Joker I just didn't care since I didn't know who or what he was from. And really still don't. I don't own a PS4 and don't want to just watch YT vids or read up articles, I'd rather experience it the right way.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Do you have the official Smash ballot results? Because I've been looking for that.

Sakurai outright stated that CastleVania was strongly requested. I also admit I made a mistake, as Sakurai mentioned Simon wasn't who was initially considered, but rather Alucard. Alucard barely even got considered as a pick here yet Sakurai said Alucard was more popular, though he decided to pick the Belmonts because of the franchise's roots. Wonder how this thread would have been if Alucard was added as he was in the Aria games, even playable in one, but is mostly known for a title that was never on Nintendo

 

[Captain Shades]

Of all the sources that I've looked at I haven't seen any supporting Joker.

Apparently Alpharad and RelaxAlax fans don’t exist even though they are huge figures in the Smash community that both championed Persona 5 and Joker’s inclusion.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Apparently Alpharad and RelaxAlax fans don’t exist even though they are huge figures in the Smash community that both championed Persona 5 and Joker’s inclusion.

Alpharad is especially noteworthy here because he also kept pushing Bayonetta as a darkhouse DLC pick for Smash 4.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai outright stated that CastleVania was strongly requested. I also admit I made a mistake, as Sakurai mentioned Simon wasn't who was initially considered, but rather Alucard. Alucard barely even got considered as a pick here yet Sakurai said Alucard was more popular, though he decided to pick the Belmonts because of the franchise's roots. Wonder how this thread would have been if Alucard was added as he was in the Aria games, even playable in one, but is mostly known for a title that was never on Nintendo

Alucard has his roots on Nintendo with him being playable as one of Trevor's companions in 3. Dunno if you were referring to him as being playable in one or the Aria games :b

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Alucard has his roots on Nintendo with him being playable as one of Trevor's companions in 3. Dunno if you were referring to him as being playable in one or the Aria games :b

Oh right, CastleVania 3 is a game, not just a Netflix show. He was playable in Aria of Sorrow in Julius mode with Yoko Belnades. Either way SotN's his most well-known appearance

 

[Nemuresu]

Sakurai outright stated that CastleVania was strongly requested. I also admit I made a mistake, as Sakurai mentioned Simon wasn't who was initially considered, but rather Alucard. Alucard barely even got considered as a pick here yet Sakurai said Alucard was more popular, though he decided to pick the Belmonts because of the franchise's roots. Wonder how this thread would have been if Alucard was added as he was in the Aria games, even playable in one, but is mostly known for a title that was never on Nintendo

By the point that would've happened, we already had Cloud as a playable. Don't know if threads like this existed for him, but I have a feeling that Alucard wouldn't cause a noise similar to this.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

By the point that would've happened, we already had Cloud as a playable. Don't know if threads like this existed for him, but I have a feeling that Alucard wouldn't cause a noise similar to this.

Cloud was a meme pick and I can assure you everyone thought it was Simon or bust.

Also I just realized Dawn of Sorrow was the one with Alucard and Yoko, I've been running on 3 hours of sleep so I mixed the Sorrow games up alongside my habit of thinking Dawn of Sorrow is also called Aria