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Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

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Gallowglass

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Sakurai's wording on Simon's arrival implied Castlevania was long overdue in terms of fan demand and he later confirmed it
I can certainly see Simon's demand and I'm fine with him. I think I'm straying from my original opinion which is that 3rd parties are fine as long as they have a prominent appearance on Nintendo systems. This is what the original post is claiming. If we were going to get Persona 5 in Smash then it would be fine but we're getting these spin offs instead. So people who really like Joker and want to know what he's all about is more incline to look towards other systems.

There's a certain Mark Twain quote my Introduction to Marketing teacher loved:
"There's lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Any statistics you can compile are still just going to be from the most vocal online fans and not really representative of the silent majority.
But do you know the reason why they tell you that? That is because it is easy to manipulate data to make it favor one argument over the other. Statistics is used to gather data and to display that data in a meaningful matter. Statistic is very useful tool and is used in a variety of businesses, scientists, governments, ect. Now if we gather a bunch of polls from various sites and compared the results we would get a more accurate image of what people want. Will it be a 100% accurate? Of course not because you'll have overlapping voters, people not voting, etc. but it will more accurate than seeing just one poll or one person's statement is. The biggest issue I doubt anyone wants to do the work for this because there is a lot of data to go through.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I can certainly see Simon's demand and I'm fine with him. I think I'm straying from my original opinion which is that 3rd parties are fine as long as they have a prominent appearance on Nintendo systems. This is what the original post is claiming. If we were going to get Persona 5 in Smash then it would be fine but we're getting these spin offs instead. So people who really like Joker and want to know what he's all about is more incline to look towards other systems.



But do you know the reason why they tell you that? That is because it is easy to manipulate data to make it favor one argument over the other. Statistics is used to gather data and to display that data in a meaningful matter. Statistic is very useful tool and is used in a variety of businesses, scientists, governments, ect. Now if we gather a bunch of polls from various sites and compared the results we would get a more accurate image of what people want. Will it be a 100% accurate? Of course not because you'll have overlapping voters, people not voting, etc. but it will more accurate than seeing just one poll or one person's statement is. The biggest issue I doubt anyone wants to do the work for this because there is a lot of data to go through.
I mean OP condemned certain third party icons despite the examples being prominent on Nintendo so... Besides, we don't know if we're never getting P5 on the Switch, took 4 years post-Cloud for FF7 to make it there

You're forgetting one major part though, fanpolls are bad because they're manipulated to being shared in certain echo chambers. Reddit had a poll once and unlike every other Reddit Smash poll, Pheonix Wright and Sora got absurdly high, because some people ended up spreading the poll outside the usual places, which in turn changed a lot. Again, the user known as tehponycorn has written an analysis on this
 

Mushroomguy12

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I have heard of both Shin and Persona, but I didn't know they were the same. Or that one was a sequel and the other was a prequel.
Persona is a spin off of Shin, not a sequel or prequel. The story is generally different and some of the core gameplay elements are changed, but they share many thematic and gameplay elements. Think Xenogears or Xenosaga to Xenoblade Chronicles. Despite the former two being owned/published by Square and Namco on Playstation systems, Xenoblade is solidly Nintendo. KOS-MOS did crossover with Fiora in Project X Zone, so the series sometimes do mix.

I can certainly see Simon's demand and I'm fine with him. I think I'm straying from my original opinion which is that 3rd parties are fine as long as they have a prominent appearance on Nintendo systems. This is what the original post is claiming. If we were going to get Persona 5 in Smash then it would be fine but we're getting these spin offs instead. So people who really like Joker and want to know what he's all about is more incline to look towards other systems.
Cloud mainly got in because of how prominent the first six FF games were on Nintendo consoles. His biggest draw was being the most popular and relevant character in his series in terms of iconic ability, which is why he made it in over Terra and Bartz, FF characters that were actually on Nintendo consoles, as well as even Black Mage and the other FF characters that typically crossed over with Mario in title like Hoops 3 on 3 and Mario Sports Mix.
Since he technically made appearances on Nintendo systems in spin offs like KH COM and FF Theathrhyhm, that made him eligible over characters that have never been on a Nintendo console. Similarly, Joker just barely fit this threshold as Persona Q2 made a 3DS release in Japan right before his announcement for Smash.
Persona has spin offs on 3DS, which are the Persona series most prominent (and only prior to P5S) appearances on Nintendo systems, similar to how Snake and Ryu mainly have their modern Nintendo appearances on portable Nintendo systems (Snake himself last appeared on the 3DS for Nintendo systems). People mainly excuse Snake because of his appearance in Brawl, but also his classic appearances on the NES.

I'm not going to repeat what I said earlier, but a big reason people may not realize Shin Megami Tensei's prominence on Nintendo systems is that, like Fire Emblem and Wars, it was mainly a Japan only franchise until the early 6th gen consoles like GBA/DS/PS2/GCN, despite starting out on the 3rd gen original NES like Metal Gear.
Shin technically has never been on the American NES or SNES, it's only been on the Famicom and Super Famicom, and it's first international release was on PS2, later followed by exclusives on the DS and 3DS.


And of course, Shin Megami Tensei x Fire Emblem is probably a big factor in the series relation to Nintendo as well.
 

EricTheGamerman

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I can certainly see Simon's demand and I'm fine with him. I think I'm straying from my original opinion which is that 3rd parties are fine as long as they have a prominent appearance on Nintendo systems. This is what the original post is claiming. If we were going to get Persona 5 in Smash then it would be fine but we're getting these spin offs instead. So people who really like Joker and want to know what he's all about is more incline to look towards other systems.



But do you know the reason why they tell you that? That is because it is easy to manipulate data to make it favor one argument over the other. Statistics is used to gather data and to display that data in a meaningful matter. Statistic is very useful tool and is used in a variety of businesses, scientists, governments, ect. Now if we gather a bunch of polls from various sites and compared the results we would get a more accurate image of what people want. Will it be a 100% accurate? Of course not because you'll have overlapping voters, people not voting, etc. but it will more accurate than seeing just one poll or one person's statement is. The biggest issue I doubt anyone wants to do the work for this because there is a lot of data to go through.
Statistics are useful to a point if you're truly relying upon them. But volunteer based polls are actually a pretty awful way to collect data on any sort of issue due to voluntary response bias, especially when polls end up taking place in specific communities that are known to hold certain beliefs. All a fan poll does is confirm the desires and opinions of that community as opposed to giving you a wider range of data to work with. And again, a lot of these online communities tend to see significant amounts of overlap and belong to a specific subset of more dedicated gamers and people willing to engage in discussion regarding something like Smash. You can keep polling the same population over and over to improve your overall confidence in your conclusions from the data, but you can't extrapolate that to other groups and subsections of the population when you know the issues with the response bias present in your initial polling areas. It's only easy to manipulate data with regards to people who don't know how the process works.

The Smash Ballot just reaches a much, much wider demographic of people and people have been shown to show more active interest in voicing opinions when they think their voice matters (I.E. Presidential elections in the US have a tendency to see much greater turnout than during the Midterms because the office of President seems more important to many voters). It's also not even a poll where you have control of the answers and can work to eliminate biases in the responses either. You're letting every vote be to whatever they want without issue, so again, their are issues with that as well.

The real Ballot I'm sure taught Sakurai a great many things and we have some characters to show he listened. But it would be really inconsiderate and lazy to just base everything off of the Ballot as a developer, especially in a game like Smash where there are so many factors at play and potential ideas to implement including your own as a developer. Also, characters like Isabelle might not poll well, but they're extremely popular characters in other contexts that should definitely be considered and even implemented in her case.
 

PhantomShab

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Based on the responses in this topic I've managed to narrow down the objective best possible newcomer.

He meets all of Sakurai's criteria.

-He's a 3rd party character.
-He's been around for less than 2 years.
-Would be able to shill Smash to a gigantic new audience.
-Would generate way more hype than Nintendo's garbage characters.
-Has months and months of history with Nintendo.
-Represents a genre of game not currently repped in Smash.

Like imagine actually wanting irrelevant 1st party losers like Waluigi or Skull Kid when we could have based Fortnite Guy. If he get's in I hope to see you all praising his inclusion.

*default dances
 
D

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Guest
Based on the responses in this topic I've managed to narrow down the objective best possible newcomer.

He meets all of Sakurai's criteria.

-He's a 3rd party character.
-He's been around for less than 2 years.
-Would be able to shill Smash to a gigantic new audience.
-Would generate way more hype than Nintendo's garbage characters.
-Has months and months of history with Nintendo.
-Represents a genre of game not currently repped in Smash.

Like imagine actually wanting irrelevant 1st party losers like Waluigi or Skull Kid when we could have based Fortnite Guy. If he get's in I hope to see you all praising his inclusion.

*default dances
Are you angry or something? I don't really think it helps your argument if you look down to 3rd party games even if they are popular with kids or the meme audience.

And honestly, while I tried Fortnite and wasn't my thing, as long as Jonesy looks and is fun to play I'm all for a Fortnite rep in Smash.
 
D

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As has been said many times before, Persona has been on 3DS multiple times. Shin Megami Tensei, which is Persona’s base series, has also had an extensive history on Nintendo consoles, to the point where it even had a crossover with Fire Emblem. Joker’s in the same vein as Cloud, in that it’s his series that’s been more associated with Nintendo that got him in.
NOBODY.
PLAYED.
SMT.
 

The DanMan051

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Based on the responses in this topic I've managed to narrow down the objective best possible newcomer.

He meets all of Sakurai's criteria.

-He's a 3rd party character.
-He's been around for less than 2 years.
-Would be able to shill Smash to a gigantic new audience.
-Would generate way more hype than Nintendo's garbage characters.
-Has months and months of history with Nintendo.
-Represents a genre of game not currently repped in Smash.

Like imagine actually wanting irrelevant 1st party losers like Waluigi or Skull Kid when we could have based Fortnite Guy. If he get's in I hope to see you all praising his inclusion.

*default dances
Look, you're being an irate little know-it-all and completely misunderstanding the point. As has been repeatedly stressed, nobody is saying there's anything wrong with desiring 1st party characters.

But I'd be down for Jonesy; a gunslinger who can place barricades sounds like an interesting take on a zoner, giving them both projectiles and stage control-- even Snake's far more about just the stage control game and doesn't have tools to quickly rack up damage from half the stage away.

He'd bring a unique playstyle and tap into a userbase 200 million strong; it's a win-win.
 
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PhantomShab

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Look, you're being an irate little know-it-all and completely misunderstanding the point.
I don't really see what I'm misunderstanding about posts like this.
Imagine thinking that you should add Skull Kid and Captain Toad over Cloud, Snake, or Joker
I see the light now. I was wrong to want more Nintendo characters. They shouldn't be added, not when there are so many 3rd parties left to add. Like imagine actually thinking they should be added. I'm ready to accept God Emperor Sakurai into my heart.
 

YoshiandToad

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Based on the responses in this topic I've managed to narrow down the objective best possible newcomer.

He meets all of Sakurai's criteria.

-He's a 3rd party character.
-He's been around for less than 2 years.
-Would be able to shill Smash to a gigantic new audience.
-Would generate way more hype than Nintendo's garbage characters.
-Has months and months of history with Nintendo.
-Represents a genre of game not currently repped in Smash.

Like imagine actually wanting irrelevant 1st party losers like Waluigi or Skull Kid when we could have based Fortnite Guy. If he get's in I hope to see you all praising his inclusion.

*default dances
To be fair, I genuinely found this funny.

And hey, Fortnite is the biggest gaming thing since Minecraft so...

If he got in I bet nobody would even blink an eyelid. We'd get justification posts like;

"Well yeah, of course Fortnite Guy got in, his game's a mega popular success that's been on the Switch and represents not only battle royale games and modern day live service games but also the budding relationships between Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony and the PC market thanks to crossplay."
 

The DanMan051

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I don't really see what I'm misunderstanding about posts like this.


I see the light now. I was wrong to want more Nintendo characters. They shouldn't be added, not when there are so many 3rd parties left to add. Like imagine actually thinking they should be added. I'm ready to accept God Emperor Sakurai into my heart.
Okay, one person who barely contributed anything to the conversation.

Also, you completely ignored the second half of my post, which expressed the point that I at the very least was always getting at: there is nothing wrong with desiring 1st party characters, but it's important to keep expectations in check and recognize that 3rd parties are by and large a win-win for Nintendo and consumers and generate far more hype and revenue on average than 1st party characters at this point.

No need to be pretentious.
 

Opossum

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Based on the responses in this topic I've managed to narrow down the objective best possible newcomer.

He meets all of Sakurai's criteria.

-He's a 3rd party character.
-He's been around for less than 2 years.
-Would be able to shill Smash to a gigantic new audience.
-Would generate way more hype than Nintendo's garbage characters.
-Has months and months of history with Nintendo.
-Represents a genre of game not currently repped in Smash.

Like imagine actually wanting irrelevant 1st party losers like Waluigi or Skull Kid when we could have based Fortnite Guy. If he get's in I hope to see you all praising his inclusion.

*default dances
I'd unironically be a-okay with Jonesy. I'm not a big fan of Fortnite (like, it's fine but it's just not my thing), but between a pick axe, the ability to erect structures, a glider, the boogie bomb to make the opponent taunt, and all of the various firearms the game offers, there's a lot to work with.
 

PhantomShab

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Okay, one person who barely contributed anything to the conversation.

Also, you completely ignored the second half of my post, which expressed the point that I at the very least was always getting at: there is nothing wrong with desiring 1st party characters, but it's important to keep expectations in check and recognize that 3rd parties are by and large a win-win for Nintendo and consumers and generate far more hype and revenue on average than 1st party characters at this point.

No need to be pretentious.
Oh I've learned to have low expectations a long time ago.
 

Gallowglass

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I mean OP condemned certain third party icons despite the examples being prominent on Nintendo so... Besides, we don't know if we're never getting P5 on the Switch, took 4 years post-Cloud for FF7 to make it there

You're forgetting one major part though, fanpolls are bad because they're manipulated to being shared in certain echo chambers. Reddit had a poll once and unlike every other Reddit Smash poll, Pheonix Wright and Sora got absurdly high, because some people ended up spreading the poll outside the usual places, which in turn changed a lot. Again, the user known as tehponycorn has written an analysis on this
Persona is a spin off of Shin, not a sequel or prequel. The story is generally different and some of the core gameplay elements are changed, but they share many thematic and gameplay elements. Think Xenogears or Xenosaga to Xenoblade Chronicles. Despite the former two being owned/published by Square and Namco on Playstation systems, Xenoblade is solidly Nintendo. KOS-MOS did crossover with Fiora in Project X Zone, so the series sometimes do mix.



Cloud mainly got in because of how prominent the first six FF games were on Nintendo consoles. His biggest draw was being the most popular and relevant character in his series in terms of iconic ability, which is why he made it in over Terra and Bartz, FF characters that were actually on Nintendo consoles, as well as even Black Mage and the other FF characters that typically crossed over with Mario in title like Hoops 3 on 3 and Mario Sports Mix.
Since he technically made appearances on Nintendo systems in spin offs like KH COM and FF Theathrhyhm, that made him eligible over characters that have never been on a Nintendo console. Similarly, Joker just barely fit this threshold as Persona Q2 made a 3DS release in Japan right before his announcement for Smash.
Persona has spin offs on 3DS, which are the Persona series most prominent (and only prior to P5S) appearances on Nintendo systems, similar to how Snake and Ryu mainly have their modern Nintendo appearances on portable Nintendo systems (Snake himself last appeared on the 3DS for Nintendo systems). People mainly excuse Snake because of his appearance in Brawl, but also his classic appearances on the NES.

I'm not going to repeat what I said earlier, but a big reason people may not realize Shin Megami Tensei's prominence on Nintendo systems is that, like Fire Emblem and Wars, it was mainly a Japan only franchise until the early 6th gen consoles like GBA/DS/PS2/GCN, despite starting out on the 3rd gen original NES like Metal Gear.
Shin technically has never been on the American NES or SNES, it's only been on the Famicom and Super Famicom, and it's first international release was on PS2, later followed by exclusives on the DS and 3DS.


And of course, Shin Megami Tensei x Fire Emblem is probably a big factor in the series relation to Nintendo as well.
Statistics are useful to a point if you're truly relying upon them. But volunteer based polls are actually a pretty awful way to collect data on any sort of issue due to voluntary response bias, especially when polls end up taking place in specific communities that are known to hold certain beliefs. All a fan poll does is confirm the desires and opinions of that community as opposed to giving you a wider range of data to work with. And again, a lot of these online communities tend to see significant amounts of overlap and belong to a specific subset of more dedicated gamers and people willing to engage in discussion regarding something like Smash. You can keep polling the same population over and over to improve your overall confidence in your conclusions from the data, but you can't extrapolate that to other groups and subsections of the population when you know the issues with the response bias present in your initial polling areas. It's only easy to manipulate data with regards to people who don't know how the process works.

The Smash Ballot just reaches a much, much wider demographic of people and people have been shown to show more active interest in voicing opinions when they think their voice matters (I.E. Presidential elections in the US have a tendency to see much greater turnout than during the Midterms because the office of President seems more important to many voters). It's also not even a poll where you have control of the answers and can work to eliminate biases in the responses either. You're letting every vote be to whatever they want without issue, so again, their are issues with that as well.

The real Ballot I'm sure taught Sakurai a great many things and we have some characters to show he listened. But it would be really inconsiderate and lazy to just base everything off of the Ballot as a developer, especially in a game like Smash where there are so many factors at play and potential ideas to implement including your own as a developer. Also, characters like Isabelle might not poll well, but they're extremely popular characters in other contexts that should definitely be considered and even implemented in her case.
First on the polls. This is why you get many polls from different sources. This will help broaden the data pool and give a more accurate assessment. It won't be 100% but it will be closer to the truth if you just someone saying otherwise. Now the issue I have the official Smash poll is that we're not allowed to see it. We are solely going by Nintendo's word that this what the results are. That's very suspicious in my opinion. It would be just like me saying that I took a poll and Mike Jones from StarTropics was the number 1 pick among legit character choices. But you should be skeptical if I don't show you the data.

As for Joker and Cloud I've already said my piece about him on the last page.
 

SmashChu

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Funny you like to say "you're not good at arguing" yet your argument has a fatal flaw to it: you're using an Assist Trophy to prove your point where "there are still many Nintendo characters to include", when in fact, there are good reasons to dismiss them.

Remember people campaigning for characters like Ridley or Chrom for last game's DLC cycle? Because I do, and both characters had to wait until this entry to appear.

Not good enough? Here's a bigger question: why should we expect assists or Mii costumes to suddenly become playable in this DLC cycle? We never saw that before and what we've seen so far is not a good indicator of them happening. In fact, what happened last game with costumes like King K. Rool and Lloyd, added to Piranha Plant's absence as a spirit until being included, and Joker and all the content he came with lead to believe otherwise.

The fact that we didn't see the former two as playable in last game shows that they were intentionally meant to compensate for the character's absence. Hell, that was even a highlight when Sakurai introduced Rex's costume in November's Direct, and I quote:


As for Joker, here's the thing: how do you make exclusive spirit boards for Rex, Spring Man, Captain Toad or Bandana Dee when the regular board is already filled with tons of spirits that could easily be part of such?

It's been already said that Astral Chain is not assured to be success, let alone that assuring a spot in Smash. Case in point: Wonderful 101. Game's easily one of the best titles in the Wii U library, yet it sold terribly and got reduced to a bunch of trophies in 4.

The only ones you brought that could make sense are the Dragalia Lost character and the SwSh pokémon, and even then, I gotta say with the latter that it can still not happen due to the fact that we've had to instances of a Nintendo character coming as DLC and neither of them fit with the packages that will come in this pass (Corrin didn't have a stage even though there should be enough places in Fates to justify one, while Piranha Plant didn't even have songs), quite tells everyone will be coming from new franchises.
Look buddy, I want you to just read the bold from my original post.

First, your post doesn't address what I was saying. I provided a list of characters who aren't D-listers and would get people excited (two of them in particular are the most popular and one if the most popular character in Japan). If you are going to claim others can't debate, maybe first pay attention to what they are saying, especially if you are responding to that.

Congratulations, you didn't address what I was saying. I'm saying that the remaining characters are not D-Listers and I've provided many prominent examples and have pointed out that the character polls show the majority of the top request are Nintendo characters. Them being assist doesn't matter because that's not what were talking about. The point about spirits is equally silly because there is no hard and fast rule there must be X amount of spirits for characters.

I also want to point something out on Astral Chains because I feel like the argument from detractors is "OH IT COULD BE A FAILURE!!"Mind you, they never say WHY it will be a failure, just that it could. Sorry, could and maybe is not an argument. If you all can't say why it will be a failure, then you point should be immediately disregarded. Here's a simple comparison. Here is the trailer for Wonderful 101 and here is the trailer for Astral Chains. Look at the view count. Clearly there is more interest now for Astral Chains then there was for Wonderful 101 after 6 - 7 years.
 

RouffWestie

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Sakurai just adds characters he thinks would be cool to have in his game; Joker's a guest character Sakurai wanted in. It's honestly that simple.
I highly doubt he ever looks at the fact that a game is tangentially related to a game that's tangentially related to a game that's tangentially related to a game that's tangentially related to a completely unrelated game that was extremely popular and thus justifies the character's existence in Smash lol.
 

Sean²

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Just responding to the OP, can't be bothered to read 9 pages of banter. I welcome most 3rd party characters, as long as they're not blatant advertisement material, like Joker is.

Regardless of that, if Master Chief became playable in relation to Xbox Live on Switch, I will happily welcome our new Spartan overlord.
 

Cutie Gwen

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First on the polls. This is why you get many polls from different sources. This will help broaden the data pool and give a more accurate assessment. It won't be 100% but it will be closer to the truth if you just someone saying otherwise. Now the issue I have the official Smash poll is that we're not allowed to see it. We are solely going by Nintendo's word that this what the results are. That's very suspicious in my opinion. It would be just like me saying that I took a poll and Mike Jones from StarTropics was the number 1 pick among legit character choices. But you should be skeptical if I don't show you the data.

As for Joker and Cloud I've already said my piece about him on the last page.
It doesn't matter what the sources are if the polls are being sent to the same places while being filled by the same people with a similar number of votes. You're arguing quantity over quality. Again, fanpolls are terrible sources due to how many factors one needs to take into account. How many people participated and what they chose is obviously important but you're ignoring where the poll was held which is just as, if not more important. If I made a fanpoll of assist trophies people would like to see promoted and only shared it across Castlevania fan spaces, Alucard would be the winner and I can claim it's what the masses want because people who think fanpolls are reliable fail to consider that crucial part.

The ballot was 3 and a half years ago my dude. They won't show results because be real, would people be able to handle results? The only people I saw demanding results back in the day were people angry that Bayonetta supposedly won over K.Rool, if they got results that proved Bayonetta was indeed the most popular character, they wouldn't believe it and demand the 'real' results. Not to mention any discussion about potential Smash characters would instantly be a ****show, "**** you X fans, MY character was more popular so my character is obviously getting in". Smash fans are already notorious for toxicity so it'd be a catastrophe.

If it seems suspicious, ask yourself this. Can you sell something by merely pretending people want it? The answer is obviously no, while we don't have exact data on characters, we know the Smash 4 DLC sold well, Nintendo claiming otherwise would literally be a crime. Nintendo has no reason to lie about the results either. We do know which characters were influenced by the ballot though. Cloud although there was overall a ton of demand for Final Fantasy content in general, Bayonetta, veterans which while unspecified is likely to include Snake judging by wording used at his confirmation as a veteran, Ridley, CastleVania content as a whole, Dark Samus, Chrom and K.Rool. Assuming this was all that the ballot influenced, that's already 8 newcomers counting echoes. Then there's Inkling and Isabelle who we don't need the ballot to know they are incredibly popular Nintendo characters in their own right. There's also the possibility that the ballot results will influence the DLC outside of Joker with the widely speculated Erdrick from Dragon Quest, a HUGE franchise back in Japan. Then there's also the DLC Mii costumes of Smash 4, a lot of people assumed K.Rool's was meant to be a consolation prize for not being the 'realizable DLC character', there's a good chance that the other Mii costumes such as Lloyd, Heihachi, Geno and Black Knight were part of that too. "But Gwen!" You may say, "Those costumes were released before the ballot ended! How could they possibly have known the full results then and there?" Elementary dear Watson, the ballot lasting 6 months doesn't mean people were sending their requests constantly for 6 months long. Casual fans especially would vote at the beginning, maybe sneakily try to toss an extra vote for a character, and then forget about it after a month. This is common with longlasting questionnares and stuff, as you get the most results planted in the first few days if it lasts a week, it's why elections have a specific day you vote
 

Gallowglass

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It doesn't matter what the sources are if the polls are being sent to the same places while being filled by the same people with a similar number of votes. You're arguing quantity over quality. Again, fanpolls are terrible sources due to how many factors one needs to take into account. How many people participated and what they chose is obviously important but you're ignoring where the poll was held which is just as, if not more important. If I made a fanpoll of assist trophies people would like to see promoted and only shared it across Castlevania fan spaces, Alucard would be the winner and I can claim it's what the masses want because people who think fanpolls are reliable fail to consider that crucial part.

The ballot was 3 and a half years ago my dude. They won't show results because be real, would people be able to handle results? The only people I saw demanding results back in the day were people angry that Bayonetta supposedly won over K.Rool, if they got results that proved Bayonetta was indeed the most popular character, they wouldn't believe it and demand the 'real' results. Not to mention any discussion about potential Smash characters would instantly be a ****show, "**** you X fans, MY character was more popular so my character is obviously getting in". Smash fans are already notorious for toxicity so it'd be a catastrophe.

If it seems suspicious, ask yourself this. Can you sell something by merely pretending people want it? The answer is obviously no, while we don't have exact data on characters, we know the Smash 4 DLC sold well, Nintendo claiming otherwise would literally be a crime. Nintendo has no reason to lie about the results either. We do know which characters were influenced by the ballot though. Cloud although there was overall a ton of demand for Final Fantasy content in general, Bayonetta, veterans which while unspecified is likely to include Snake judging by wording used at his confirmation as a veteran, Ridley, CastleVania content as a whole, Dark Samus, Chrom and K.Rool. Assuming this was all that the ballot influenced, that's already 8 newcomers counting echoes. Then there's Inkling and Isabelle who we don't need the ballot to know they are incredibly popular Nintendo characters in their own right. There's also the possibility that the ballot results will influence the DLC outside of Joker with the widely speculated Erdrick from Dragon Quest, a HUGE franchise back in Japan. Then there's also the DLC Mii costumes of Smash 4, a lot of people assumed K.Rool's was meant to be a consolation prize for not being the 'realizable DLC character', there's a good chance that the other Mii costumes such as Lloyd, Heihachi, Geno and Black Knight were part of that too. "But Gwen!" You may say, "Those costumes were released before the ballot ended! How could they possibly have known the full results then and there?" Elementary dear Watson, the ballot lasting 6 months doesn't mean people were sending their requests constantly for 6 months long. Casual fans especially would vote at the beginning, maybe sneakily try to toss an extra vote for a character, and then forget about it after a month. This is common with longlasting questionnares and stuff, as you get the most results planted in the first few days if it lasts a week, it's why elections have a specific day you vote
That's a nice way to strawman my argument. By picking only Castlevania fansites as you claim would be cherry picking your sources and would be falsifying the results you're looking wouldn't it? You don't seem to understand getting the MULTIPLE sources here.

Can you sell something by merely pretending people want it? Absolutely! That is a common marketing ploy in advertisement. It goes under the whole, "Everyone else is doing it." sort of model. The execution is based around spokesman/testimonial/endorsement style which would be the voters from the poll. By saying that she was the most popular character from around the world gives a lot of credit to her (and is really difficult to fact check too). The emotional appeal is focus on the social as it gives is a "popular" feel when playing her. Top that off with her already sex appeal and her OP gameplay and people are going to nod and agree without question.

Also if you haven't notice one of my degrees is in business and though I didn't major in statistics and marketing I did have to take courses on it. My other degree is in environmental engineering which I had to take more statistics and data modeling for on top of that. But thanks for getting me back to looking into my old text books again.
 

Cutie Gwen

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That's a nice way to strawman my argument. By picking only Castlevania fansites as you claim would be cherry picking your sources and would be falsifying the results you're looking wouldn't it? You don't seem to understand getting the MULTIPLE sources here.

Can you sell something by merely pretending people want it? Absolutely! That is a common marketing ploy in advertisement. It goes under the whole, "Everyone else is doing it." sort of model. The execution is based around spokesman/testimonial/endorsement style which would be the voters from the poll. By saying that she was the most popular character from around the world gives a lot of credit to her (and is really difficult to fact check too). The emotional appeal is focus on the social as it gives is a "popular" feel when playing her. Top that off with her already sex appeal and her OP gameplay and people are going to nod and agree without question.

Also if you haven't notice one of my degrees is in business and though I didn't major in statistics and marketing I did have to take courses on it. My other degree is in environmental engineering which I had to take more statistics and data modeling for on top of that. But thanks for getting me back to looking into my old text books again.
I'd still be getting multiple sources. Just that like every other fanpoll, including this site's very own Rate Their Chances, I would be cherrypicking

If nobody actually wanted Bayonetta then she wouldn't have sold well. My major was also business classes, although not specifically for the gaming industry. She's a popular character from a critically acclaimed franchise which was also on Nintendo systems which made her already positive reputation even better. Also I highly doubt sex appeal would be a reason people bought Bayonetta, I didn't even see any "HOW DARE THEY CENSOR HER!" takes when she was announced, though that could have been me being very lucky.

Also, here's a fanpoll
Rather wildly different from a typical fan poll even if you ignore the 'no AT' rule this poll had
 

Captain Shades

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Maybe a bit skeptical, but I’m going to say that ballot votes aren’t real. I’m sorry, but how could Nintendo have possibly counted up all the votes. This ballot wasn’t a poll, you specifically had to enter a character’s name in, so Nintendo would have to look at the names of upwards of thousands of different characters. I think the ballot was a huge publicity stunt to really see how the fan base reacted. K Rool was obviously the talk of the town, which is why he was the real winner. I want to mention that Bayonetta was probably also really high up, I mean she did have Alpharad, so I don’t believe she was really undeserving. I kinda expected that Bayonetta was just a place holder, a popular enough character that can promote her new game while the next entry gets many of the big online characters.

Chrom was chosen due to backlash that he wasn’t in 4.

Ridley has been talked about for years and was one of the few characters Sakurai has acknowledged the fandom of since Brawl. Dark Samus was also added due to the demand for Metroid content, plus she was always that 2nd option Metroid fans brought up.

The Belmont’s were a result of Brawl more than anything as people wanted them over Snake. Or more specifically, Castlevania over Metal Gear. Since Sakurai had to get Snake back as many demanded the return, he may as well fix the Nintendo specific Konami franchise problem.

Isabelle and Incinceroar were more so to please Nintendo as they were clear franchise pushers.

Daisy was added because it was evident that there was always a small pocket fandom for her, so an echo could please them. Also Memoryman3 and WeAreDaisy exist, so I’m pretty sure there’s a modern Daisy cult out there.

Ken was added due to the echo concept

Ultimately, I doubt ballot results influenced the character picks, but rather the outcry for characters due to the ballot or previous circumstances. This is likely why there is such a disparity between ballot results from fans and Nintendo’s data. I really don’t believe Nintendo looked at any data, but rather made judgements based on how their community was acting.

This brings me to..
I welcome most 3rd party characters, as long as they're not blatant advertisement material, like Joker is.
Joker was not an advertisement pick, far from it. Joker came from a game that was literally pushed enough to be in the same league as BOTW and Odessey as game of the year in 2017. And, want to know what’s funny? For not having a Nintendo release, many big Nintendo fans were the ones pushing it. RelaxAlax, Alpharad, Etika, etc. we’re pushing the game. Smash’s entire art direction was lifted from P5, so yes, I feel Joker was heavily justified to be in the game.

That's a nice way to strawman my argument. By picking only Castlevania fansites as you claim would be cherry picking your sources and would be falsifying the results you're looking wouldn't it? You don't seem to understand getting the MULTIPLE sources here.
What is being said is that the Smash community consists of a giant echo chamber. One can simply change data with the passing of links to certain polls. Multiple sources may not work as the same people who would see those polls are participate may also be the ones on a different site. Just because you post a poll on Twitter doesn’t mean Tumblr users won’t get involved. The Smash community can work as somewhat of a giant circle of the same people demanding things. Most casuals probably voted for radically different things but didn’t get involved enough within polls to show there’s more outside the Smash bubble. I doubt many people ever considered Steve an option, but now there is this random fan base rising out of the blue and you see them in comment sections, YouTube, etc. Heck, I bet you would never think to see Miiverse for data, but I can tell you that Steve was bigger on there than probably any other site. I guess what I’m saying is, no one can actually predict anything in terms of popularity, a small group of ten can seem like 100 if they keep taking over polls across multiple sites.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Maybe a bit skeptical, but I’m going to say that ballot votes aren’t real. I’m sorry, but how could Nintendo have possibly counted up all the votes. This ballot wasn’t a poll, you specifically had to enter a character’s name in, so Nintendo would have to look at the names of upwards of thousands of different characters. I think the ballot was a huge publicity stunt to really see how the fan base reacted. K Rool was obviously the talk of the town, which is why he was the real winner. I want to mention that Bayonetta was probably also really high up, I mean she did have Alpharad, so I don’t believe she was really undeserving. I kinda expected that Bayonetta was just a place holder, a popular enough character that can promote her new game while the next entry gets many of the big online characters.

Chrom was chosen due to backlash that he wasn’t in 4.

Ridley has been talked about for years and was one of the few characters Sakurai has acknowledged the fandom of since Brawl. Dark Samus was also added due to the demand for Metroid content, plus she was always that 2nd option Metroid fans brought up.

The Belmont’s were a result of Brawl more than anything as people wanted them over Snake. Or more specifically, Castlevania over Metal Gear. Since Sakurai had to get Snake back as many demanded the return, he may as well fix the Nintendo specific Konami franchise problem.

Isabelle and Incinceroar were more so to please Nintendo as they were clear franchise pushers.

Daisy was added because it was evident that there was always a small pocket fandom for her, so an echo could please them. Also Memoryman3 and WeAreDaisy exist, so I’m pretty sure there’s a modern Daisy cult out there.

Ken was added due to the echo concept

Ultimately, I doubt ballot results influenced the character picks, but rather the outcry for characters due to the ballot or previous circumstances. This is likely why there is such a disparity between ballot results from fans and Nintendo’s data. I really don’t believe Nintendo looked at any data, but rather made judgements based on how their community was acting.

This brings me to..


Joker was not an advertisement pick, far from it. Joker came from a game that was literally pushed enough to be in the same league as BOTW and Odessey as game of the year in 2017. And, want to know what’s funny? For not having a Nintendo release, many big Nintendo fans were the ones pushing it. RelaxAlax, Alpharad, Etika, etc. we’re pushing the game. Smash’s entire art direction was lifted from P5, so yes, I feel Joker was heavily justified to be in the game.


What is being said is that the Smash community consists of a giant echo chamber. One can simply change data with the passing of links to certain polls. Multiple sources may not work as the same people who would see those polls are participate may also be the ones on a different site. Just because you post a poll on Twitter doesn’t mean Tumblr users won’t get involved. The Smash community can work as somewhat of a giant circle of the same people demanding things. Most casuals probably voted for radically different things but didn’t get involved enough within polls to show there’s more outside the Smash bubble. I doubt many people ever considered Steve an option, but now there is this random fan base rising out of the blue and you see them in comment sections, YouTube, etc. Heck, I bet you would never think to see Miiverse for data, but I can tell you that Steve was bigger on there than probably any other site. I guess what I’m saying is, no one can actually predict anything in terms of popularity, a small group of ten can seem like 100 if they keep taking over polls across multiple sites.
I believe the ballot was stated to have 1.3 million votes total, I highly doubt a rather large company would have difficulty. You don't even need to look the character up, the ballot had you mention where they were from
 
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The vote counting is done automatically by computers, its not something difficult as string comparing is a thing and you can store and combine the results later if there's variance in the names of characters/franchises. If there are suspicious votes, there are several techniques like hashing the text in the votes and IP tracking to raise red flags.

Plus calling K. Rool the ballot winner without anything to back him up aside from Sakurai comments of getting lots of votes is silly.
 
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He didn't start anything. Dude was just sharing his opinion and now he said his peace. Damn, Leave dude alone.

No one has time to argue "Forever"
You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run

Those who want to win internet points to mask their shortcomings, while not having much else going in their lives, have and will make the time ;)

There are others I'd prefer but Sakurai and his team did a fabulous job with Joker, his inclusion adds to the rich and diverse gaming history on display with Smash.
 
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Sean²

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Joker was not an advertisement pick, far from it. Joker came from a game that was literally pushed enough to be in the same league as BOTW and Odessey as game of the year in 2017. And, want to know what’s funny? For not having a Nintendo release, many big Nintendo fans were the ones pushing it. RelaxAlax, Alpharad, Etika, etc. we’re pushing the game. Smash’s entire art direction was lifted from P5, so yes, I feel Joker was heavily justified to be in the game.
Nah, I still think he was an advertisement pick. If a Persona game wasn't getting released for Switch in the near future, he likely wouldn't have had any chance. Maybe it's the beginning of a new relationship between Nintendo and Persona's developers, so we'll see if Persona 6 is released for Switch. If not, then I think my point stands fairly well, considering the existence of Roy and Corrin in Smash were born of the same concept (and that's even their own series).

And I don't think Nintendo cares about what streamers and youtubers think. They don't accept basic feedback from anyone, so youtubers to them are likely just more "adult men complaining on the internet about a children's game". A lot of their fans don't fit their target market, so they're ignored.
 

osby

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Nah, I still think he was an advertisement pick. If a Persona game wasn't getting released for Switch in the near future, he likely wouldn't have had any chance. Maybe it's the beginning of a new relationship between Nintendo and Persona's developers, so we'll see if Persona 6 is released for Switch. If not, then I think my point stands fairly well, considering the existence of Roy and Corrin in Smash were born of the same concept (and that's even their own series).
Considering Persona 5 is released in 2016, your theory doesn't hold much water, especially since it stands on comparing Joker with a character debuted in Smash and "what if maybe"s.
 

Sean²

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Persona 5 Scramble debuting on the Switch in the near future isn't a thing now? Regardless of being a spinoff or not, it's still utilizing the Persona name.

If they develop a main series entry(s) for the Switch, whenever that may be, I won't consider him ad revenue any longer. That's my entire thought, really.
 
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osby

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Persona 5 Scramble debuting on the Switch in the near future isn't a thing now? Regardless of being a spinoff or not, it's still utilizing the Persona name.

If they develop a main series entry(s) for the Switch, whenever that may be, I wouldn't consider him ad revenue any longer. That's my entire thought, really.
So, he's promotion because a Persona game is coming to Switch but wouldn't be promotion if a Persona game comes to Switch?

Do I really have to point out that you're contradicting with yourself?
 

Gallowglass

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I'd still be getting multiple sources. Just that like every other fanpoll, including this site's very own Rate Their Chances, I would be cherrypicking

If nobody actually wanted Bayonetta then she wouldn't have sold well. My major was also business classes, although not specifically for the gaming industry. She's a popular character from a critically acclaimed franchise which was also on Nintendo systems which made her already positive reputation even better. Also I highly doubt sex appeal would be a reason people bought Bayonetta, I didn't even see any "HOW DARE THEY CENSOR HER!" takes when she was announced, though that could have been me being very lucky.

Also, here's a fanpoll
Rather wildly different from a typical fan poll even if you ignore the 'no AT' rule this poll had
Clearly you don't understand how to do research or find sources. Here is a sample of various sources that I found in like 30min. Obviously if it would take a lot more time to get a proper data pool.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3i2gq9/smash_ballot_results_are_here_for_the_smash_bros/
https://twitter.com/ssbunews/status/1037437559343865856?lang=en
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/04/01/smash-poll-smash-dlc-results/


Oh and this was just something I found in my quick research.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...tes_might_not_have_been_used_for_smash_4s_dlc

Is she really that popular or critically acclaimed? Please show me where this massive fanbase is because. Show me where her games reached were top selling charts and such. As for the sex appeal that was a major marketing strategy that they went with her as they promoted her in Maxim magazine and Men's Fitness.

But we have gotten way off the rails here since we are suppose to be about Joker and how he's not really doing Nintendo a service. Going back to the beginning is that I can't find where his Pre-Smash popularity was very high among the Nintendo community which is being claimed. Now in my opinion if they want to promote AND sell Persona games on a Nintendo system then they need to either

A: Use a character who's main game will be on the Switch (like P3 or P4)

or

B: Announce Persona 5 will be on the Switch at E3 this year.

This is basic marketing practice.
 
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I'd unironically be a-okay with Jonesy. I'm not a big fan of Fortnite (like, it's fine but it's just not my thing), but between a pick axe, the ability to erect structures, a glider, the boogie bomb to make the opponent taunt, and all of the various firearms the game offers, there's a lot to work with.
How would the Boogie Bomb work online? :p
 

Opossum

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How would the Boogie Bomb work online? :p
Sakurai just default dances on the established No Taunts rule and lets him do it anyway. :p

Maybe it'd just work because it's not voluntary on the part of the taunter? Like, it's an animation playing as a result of Jonesy's input, but not from hitting the taunt button.
 

Sean²

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So, he's promotion because a Persona game is coming to Switch but wouldn't be promotion if a Persona game comes to Switch?

Do I really have to point out that you're contradicting with yourself?
If they don't continue the series on Switch after this title, then I'd consider him a promotional pick for this spinoff game - like Corrin was for FE Fates, with the exception being that he's a 3rd party and Corrin isn't. If they do continue the series on Switch after this game, I'd see his inclusion in Smash as more of a political marriage between the two companies. Does that make more sense?
 
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