Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

[osby]

If they don't continue the series on Switch after this title, then I'd consider him a promotional pick for this spinoff game - like Corrin was for FE Fates, with the exception being that he's a 3rd party and Corrin isn't. If they do continue the series on Switch after this game, I'd see his inclusion in Smash as more of a political marriage between the two companies. Does that make more sense?

Absolutely no. Nintendo and Sakurai didn't add a character just to promote a Warriors spin-off. Joker added because Persona 5 is widely considered to be best RPG of its console generation and Sakurai is a fan of it.

New games don't automatically make characters promotional. Even if they do, it's absurd to act like promoting a spin-off in Switch makes remote sense while the main game is on a rival console.

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai just default dances on the established No Taunts rule and lets him do it anyway.

Maybe it'd just work because it's not voluntary on the part of the taunter? Like, it's an animation playing as a result of Jonesy's input, but not from hitting the taunt button.

Also, I realized something.
Jonesy would be a hard Kirby counter as he could take away Copy Abilities.

 

[Sean²]

Absolutely no. Nintendo and Sakurai didn't add a character just to promote a Warriors spin-off. Joker added because Persona 5 is widely considered to be best RPG of its console generation and Sakurai is a fan of it.

New games don't automatically make characters promotional. Even if they do, it's absurd to act like promoting a spin-off in Switch makes remote sense while the main game is on a rival console.

Would you consider Roy and Corrin promotional picks, considering a lot of FE fans don't really even care for them in the same way they care for Ike, Chrom, etc? Considering their first inclusion in Smash came before their feature debut? I'm just saying Nintendo isn't above using Smash as a big billboard.

The old rule from Sakurai, or Nintendo puppeteering Sakurai, is that a 3rd party character had to have made at least one appearance on a Nintendo system before appearing as a playable fighter in Smash. All 3rd party characters to date have followed this rule. Except for Joker. I don't see how it isn't at least somewhat of a political marriage between the 2 companies, regardless of how much Sakurai likes the game, or how well-received the game is in general. Whether this spinoff is just the beginning of it, or if it's the beginning and the end of it, is something none of us know yet.

 

[Deleted member]

Would you consider Roy and Corrin promotional picks, considering a lot of FE fans don't really even care for them in the same way they care for Ike, Chrom, etc? Considering their first inclusion in Smash came before their feature debut? I'm just saying Nintendo isn't above using Smash as a big billboard.

The old rule from Sakurai, or Nintendo puppeteering Sakurai, is that a 3rd party character had to have made at least one appearance on a Nintendo system before appearing as a playable fighter in Smash. All 3rd party characters to date have followed this rule. Except for Joker. I don't see how it isn't at least somewhat of a political marriage between the 2 companies, regardless of how much Sakurai likes the game, or how well-received the game is in general. Whether this spinoff is just the beginning of it, or if it's the beginning and the end of it, is something none of us know yet.

Joker is appearing on Nintendo systems through PQ2 and P5S.

So he is following the “rule”.

 

[Sean²]

Well, forgive my ignorance on the 3ds game. I had no idea it existed. The only things I have read outside of smash were in regard to the Switch spinoff.

 

[blackghost]

Clearly you don't understand how to do research or find sources. Here is a sample of various sources that I found in like 30min. Obviously if it would take a lot more time to get a proper data pool.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3i2gq9/smash_ballot_results_are_here_for_the_smash_bros/
https://twitter.com/ssbunews/status/1037437559343865856?lang=en
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/04/01/smash-poll-smash-dlc-results/


Oh and this was just something I found in my quick research.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...tes_might_not_have_been_used_for_smash_4s_dlc

Is she really that popular or critically acclaimed? Please show me where this massive fanbase is because. .

1. bayonetta a massive fanbase and is one of the most prominent video game characters in tumblr. bayonetta has been in multiple games and has crossed over into other games. she is also the female face of action games. you say her clout and popularity in the fact she was choosen in a death battle video on youtube as well.
2. bayonetta 2 has a 92 percent on metacritic (at launch it had a 98%)
bayo 1 had a 90 percent on metacric
bayonetta is a critical success not even debatable. bayonetta is more consistent than devil may cry has been.
https://www.metacritic.com/game/switch/bayonetta-2

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Clearly you don't understand how to do research or find sources. Here is a sample of various sources that I found in like 30min. Obviously if it would take a lot more time to get a proper data pool.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3i2gq9/smash_ballot_results_are_here_for_the_smash_bros/
https://twitter.com/ssbunews/status/1037437559343865856?lang=en
https://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/04/01/smash-poll-smash-dlc-results/


Oh and this was just something I found in my quick research.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...tes_might_not_have_been_used_for_smash_4s_dlc

Is she really that popular or critically acclaimed? Please show me where this massive fanbase is because. Show me where her games reached were top selling charts and such. As for the sex appeal that was a major marketing strategy that they went with her as they promoted her in Maxim magazine and Men's Fitness.

But we have gotten way off the rails here since we are suppose to be about Joker and how he's not really doing Nintendo a service. Going back to the beginning is that I can't find where his Pre-Smash popularity was very high among the Nintendo community which is being claimed. Now in my opinion if they want to promote AND sell Persona games on a Nintendo system then they need to either

A: Use a character who's main game will be on the Switch (like P3 or P4)

or

B: Announce Persona 5 will be on the Switch at E3 this year.

This is basic marketing practice.

I can't look into the Source Gaming link because for some reason their site literally never ****ing works for me but you linked 2 polls which were posted in 2 separate places which show some rather different results on the ends, my point is that fan polls can be manipulated by the fact they can be held in different places. Coincidentally enough the twitter account you posted made a new poll and what do you know, it has similar results with the placing of certain characters.

About that ballot link, as I mentioned most of the votes were made early on meaning this means Bayonetta could have very easily fit the 'realizable' quota there. Not to mention I don't see what's so damning here, they already said the ballot would be used for multiple games, not just Smash 4. The fact that most of the newcomers got in through fan demand, as in, the ballot, it means that the ballot did end up giving us a **** ton of pandering anyway so what's the point of complaining?

All you need to do is check out the opinions of people who played the Bayonetta games, including reviews. While they aren't super best sellers, the ballot had a rather small amount of voters considering the franchise, 1.8 million as seen here https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3y06nr/the_smash_ballot_got_18_million_votes_more_info/ The url says 18 but it's 1.8, which I also apologize for as I previously said it only had 1.3. The franchise is clearly critically acclaimed as a result, with fans praising the game and character alike, There's also the most popular Smash youtuber at the time, Alpharad, He REALLY pushed for his fans to support Bayonetta on the ballot, and incredibly popular youtubers tend to have fans that are easily influenced by said youtubers (side not, Alpharad also pushed for Joker demand but that clearly couldn't have impacted Sakurai's decision)


Again, Alpharad alongside the fact that Persona 5 is a widely beloved game that while not on Nintendo systems, doesn't mean that Nintendo fans couldn't possibly have played the game


Also I'm hearing DMC1 is on the Switch now and Capcom said something along the lines of how we should be asking for DMC on the Switch if we want Dante in Smash iirc. Might have specifically been Itsuno

 

[Cosmic77]

One good way to judge the iconicness of a video game character is by going in a place like Walmart or your local mall, showing people a picture of the character, and asking them if they recognize said character. If you get a lot of "no" responses, switch over to an area where people might be more familiar with video games, like Gamestop or the electronics section. If you still get a lot of "no"s, then your character probably isn't as iconic as you think it is.

Personally, I think people are really overexaggerating how iconic Bayo is. She's only had two games, neither of which garnered ground-breaking sales or widespread talk online. I couldn't exactly tell you how iconic she is, but do I think she can hold a candle to the other third-parties? Aside from maybe Joker, not really. Her franchise is way too small and relatively new for anyone outside hardcore gamers and Smash fans to recognize.

Until someone can show me reliable proof that a noticeable percentage of casuals and people who've quit playing video games can recognize her, that's the stance I'm going to take.

 

[Flyboy]

Would you consider Roy and Corrin promotional picks, considering a lot of FE fans don't really even care for them in the same way they care for Ike, Chrom, etc? Considering their first inclusion in Smash came before their feature debut? I'm just saying Nintendo isn't above using Smash as a big billboard.

The old rule from Sakurai, or Nintendo puppeteering Sakurai, is that a 3rd party character had to have made at least one appearance on a Nintendo system before appearing as a playable fighter in Smash. All 3rd party characters to date have followed this rule. Except for Joker. I don't see how it isn't at least somewhat of a political marriage between the 2 companies, regardless of how much Sakurai likes the game, or how well-received the game is in general. Whether this spinoff is just the beginning of it, or if it's the beginning and the end of it, is something none of us know yet.

He was already on Nintendo thanks to Persona Q2, which was out in Japan before the Game Awards. It was the game's announcement that prompted a lot of us to even dare to dream. Also Atlus has supported Nintendo since the NES days and stuck by the Wii U in it's darkest days. It's as simple as that.

 

[Sean²]

He was already on Nintendo thanks to Persona Q2, which was out in Japan before the Game Awards. It was the game's announcement that prompted a lot of us to even dare to dream. Also Atlus has supported Nintendo since the NES days and stuck by the Wii U in it's darkest days. It's as simple as that.

If you read back a couple posts you'll see my response to that. I honestly didn't know that game even existed.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Honestly, Smash would have stopped at Brawl if 3rd parties didn't exist.

Citation needed because that sounds like baseless speculation at best.

Smash would continue as long as it continued to print money, which it was doing even prior to Snake and Sonic's first appearance. Melee and 64 were successes hence getting sequels. If Snake and Sonic never showed up, Brawl would still have been a success and that success would warrant a sequel on the next console and so on and so forth.

If we'd never had a third party inclusion I doubt the series would be dead right now thanks to a combination of gameplay and the incredibly unique concept of Nintendo's biggest faces crossing over in one massive game.

I can name a load of Nintendo character inclusions yet to have happened that would continue to get people to buy sequels even in an alternative reality where third parties never got implemented simply because at the end of the day it's Smash Bros, and more characters=good regardless of who they are.

We got Piranha Plant and (mostly) everyone was pleased after all. Literally a character no one asked for, but everyone loved it. In a world where even Piranha Plant can get people hyped, I find it hard to believe Smash is only able to continue because characters like Joker and Bayonetta are included.

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, Smash would have stopped at Brawl if 3rd parties didn't exist.

Now that's just a gross exaggeration.

As long as time keeps on going, Nintendo is bound to come up with more "Isabelle" and "Inkling" characters eventually. Add those to the franchises that will seemingly always provide us with a possible newcomer (Pokemon, FE, Xenoblade), throw in a few surprises, and you've got yourself a decent roster. Will it be a roster everyone will be satisfied with? Maybe, maybe not.

Regardless, there's more than enough to work with, even without third-parties.

 

[Perkilator]

Okay, seriously, this thread is only deteriorating. Can we please close it?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Citation needed because that sounds like baseless speculation at best.

Smash would continue as long as it continued to print money, which it was doing even prior to Snake and Sonic's first appearance. Melee and 64

Citation needed because that sounds like baseless speculation at best.

Smash would continue as long as it continued to print money, which it was doing even prior to Snake and Sonic's first appearance. Melee and 64 were successes hence getting sequels. If Snake and Sonic never showed up, Brawl would still have been a success and that success would warrant a sequel on the next console and so on and so forth.

If we'd never had a third party inclusion I doubt the series would be dead right now thanks to a combination of gameplay and the incredibly unique concept of Nintendo's biggest faces crossing over in one massive game.

I can name a load of Nintendo character inclusions yet to have happened that would continue to get people to buy sequels even in an alternative reality where third parties never got implemented simply because at the end of the day it's Smash Bros, and more characters=good regardless of who they are.

We got Piranha Plant and (mostly) everyone was pleased after all. Literally a character no one asked for, but everyone loved it. In a world where even Piranha Plant can get people hyped, I find it hard to believe Smash is only able to continue because characters like Joker and Bayonetta are included.

Now that's just a gross exaggeration.

As long as time keeps on going, Nintendo is bound to come up with more "Isabelle" and "Inkling" characters eventually. Add those to the franchises that will seemingly always provide us with a possible newcomer (Pokemon, FE, Xenoblade), throw in a few surprises, and you've got yourself a decent roster. Will it be a roster everyone will be satisfied with? Maybe, maybe not.

Regardless, there's more than enough to work with, even without third-parties.

That was just my personal opinion. I think that if Smash did not have 3rd parties then we'd have to go to the bottom of the barrel for new characters. Make an all Nintendo Smash roster now and try and convince someone that that roster is more hype than playing as Cloud Strife fighting Mario.

 

[YoshiandToad]

That was just my personal opinion. I think that if Smash did not have 3rd parties then we'd have to go to the bottom of the barrel for new characters. Make an all Nintendo Smash roster now and try and convince someone that that roster is more hype than playing as Cloud Strife fighting Mario.

Right, but that's only because third parties were introduced in the first place.
If Sonic or Snake were never added, no one would even blink an eyelid over an All Nintendo Roster. That'd be the norm. Hell, Sonic and Snake were seen as guest characters in Brawl, not everyone expected them to return in Sm4sh even, with a few thinking Megaman was replacing Sonic initially as that games guest character.
You got to remember most other fighting games treat guests as guests rather than full fledged members of the roster to be included every time afterwards.
It wasn't until Sonic returned that people began assuming Snake too would be returning...and when he didn't, then it was a big deal. Soul Caliber never had Link or Spawn return, for example, in following games just because they appeared in one version of the game.

If we're on about removing third parties NOW(which I don't think we were, just some of us don't want ALL third parties for the fighters pass and a smaller amount don't want any additional third parties) after it's been established that guests are permenant members of the cast then yeah, that'd be disappointing for a large majority. That's less content. No one wants less content.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ok, so now that I saw DMC1 on the Switch wasn't a hallucination, I think there's something pretty noteworthy to point out here

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Does this mean Dante's happening? Probably not for now but it means something else. Devil May Cry fans were able to be loud enough to get Capcom to try and test the waters for Nintendo which in turn makes the idea of Dante less of a pipe dream. I think that this should be the final nail that Smash fans aren't just Nintendo fans

 

[Sean²]

Wouldn't doubt the possibility, unless the decision to port the game was made after the final DLC decisions were made. Capcom has a massive crush on Nintendo already so wouldn't doubt they'd gift another IP to them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wouldn't doubt the possibility, unless the decision to port the game was made after the final DLC decisions were made.

The fact Capcom acknowledged the support and used that to egg people on to buy this makes me think he's outright not in the Fighter Pass as now people are going to consider him very likely

 

[The DanMan051]

Ok, so now that I saw DMC1 on the Switch wasn't a hallucination, I think there's something pretty noteworthy to point out here

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Does this mean Dante's happening? Probably not for now but it means something else. Devil May Cry fans were able to be loud enough to get Capcom to try and test the waters for Nintendo which in turn makes the idea of Dante less of a pipe dream. I think that this should be the final nail that Smash fans aren't just Nintendo fans

Itsuno (the series producer) said that if people wanted Dante in Smash they should ask for DMC games on Switch back in February.
While nothing is confirmed and I'm not implying it is, I think we're working with a close enough timeframe that Itsuno's response may have been cheeky.

Worth keeping an eye on.

 

[Gallowglass]

1. bayonetta a massive fanbase and is one of the most prominent video game characters in tumblr. bayonetta has been in multiple games and has crossed over into other games. she is also the female face of action games. you say her clout and popularity in the fact she was choosen in a death battle video on youtube as well.
2. bayonetta 2 has a 92 percent on metacritic (at launch it had a 98%)
bayo 1 had a 90 percent on metacric
bayonetta is a critical success not even debatable. bayonetta is more consistent than devil may cry has been.
https://www.metacritic.com/game/switch/bayonetta-2

Well first you are quoting for Bayonetta 2 for the Switch and not its votes for WiiU. But even if you did take this data Undertale still out beat Bayonetta 2 in Switch reviews on the site. https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/available/switch/metascore And just by combining the fan polls that me and Cutie Gwen have posted it would appear Sans would have been one of the top choices. Again not accurate for the actual poll but I'm still not seeing this massive fan base you claim is out there.

I can't look into the Source Gaming link because for some reason their site literally never ****ing works for me but you linked 2 polls which were posted in 2 separate places which show some rather different results on the ends, my point is that fan polls can be manipulated by the fact they can be held in different places. Coincidentally enough the twitter account you posted made a new poll and what do you know, it has similar results with the placing of certain characters.

About that ballot link, as I mentioned most of the votes were made early on meaning this means Bayonetta could have very easily fit the 'realizable' quota there. Not to mention I don't see what's so damning here, they already said the ballot would be used for multiple games, not just Smash 4. The fact that most of the newcomers got in through fan demand, as in, the ballot, it means that the ballot did end up giving us a **** ton of pandering anyway so what's the point of complaining?

All you need to do is check out the opinions of people who played the Bayonetta games, including reviews. While they aren't super best sellers, the ballot had a rather small amount of voters considering the franchise, 1.8 million as seen here https:///r/smawww.reddit.comshbros/comments/3y06nr/the_smash_ballot_got_18_million_votes_more_info/ The url says 18 but it's 1.8, which I also apologize for as I previously said it only had 1.3. The franchise is clearly critically acclaimed as a result, with fans praising the game and character alike, There's also the most popular Smash youtuber at the time, Alpharad, He REALLY pushed for his fans to support Bayonetta on the ballot, and incredibly popular youtubers tend to have fans that are easily influenced by said youtubers (side not, Alpharad also pushed for Joker demand but that clearly couldn't have impacted Sakurai's decision)


Again, Alpharad alongside the fact that Persona 5 is a widely beloved game that while not on Nintendo systems, doesn't mean that Nintendo fans couldn't possibly have played the game


Also I'm hearing DMC1 is on the Switch now and Capcom said something along the lines of how we should be asking for DMC on the Switch if we want Dante in Smash iirc. Might have specifically been Itsuno

Those polls are SUPPOSE to be different because they are getting votes from different groups of people from different fan bases. Then when you combine those polls you start to see trends from the different fan bases. Trends like Geno, Sans, Banjo Kazooie, and of course no Bayo. Don't you find it really odd that of those 1.8 million people who voted none of the Bayo fans never voted on any of the other fan's polls? I mean I can't even find one where she reaches the top 50 in any of them.

So, I don't know how to make this any more clearer and I've been talking in circles a lot more than I like. So if you want to think you won then fine but I'm done with trying to teach statistics 101.

 

[The DanMan051]

Well first you are quoting for Bayonetta 2 for the Switch and not its votes for WiiU. But even if you did take this data Undertale still out beat Bayonetta 2 in Switch reviews on the site. https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/available/switch/metascore And just by combining the fan polls that me and Cutie Gwen have posted it would appear Sans would have been one of the top choices. Again not accurate for the actual poll but I'm still not seeing this massive fan base you claim is out there.



Those polls are SUPPOSE to be different because they are getting votes from different groups of people from different fan bases. Then when you combine those polls you start to see trends from the different fan bases. Trends like Geno, Sans, Banjo Kazooie, and of course no Bayo. Don't you find it really odd that of those 1.8 million people who voted none of the Bayo fans never voted on any of the other fan's polls? I mean I can't even find one where she reaches the top 50 in any of them.

So, I don't know how to make this any more clearer and I've been talking in circles a lot more than I like. So if you want to think you won then fine but I'm done with trying to teach statistics 101.

The Bayonetta deal should basically be common sense.

She had data added in an update put out exactly two weeks after the Ballot began.
Updates have to be tested and vetted before they're put on the server.
Negotiations with a major 3rd party company over the usage of a character and representation of a franchise in something as big as Smash wouldn't happen overnight. There'd be internal discussion inside Nintendo and the Smash team whether the character would be feasible, they'd have to approach Sega about it, there'd almost certainly be some back and forth where they ironed things out before signing off on a contract, etc. .

Completely ignoring fan polls, it seems very unlikely that she was decided on after the Ballot began.

However, while I don't think fan polls are a good measure of overall popularity, they're a decent measure of what's popular among the fans.
The consistent #1 during the Smash Ballot was K. Rool. Bayonetta wasn't even a top 30 character in most of them. K. Rool explicitly got into Ultimate off of "strong Ballot performance".

You can go "but the Smash Ballot was much larger than any fan poll", and I'd agree.
But once so many results are accrued the more adherent they become; that's something that was brought up in my statistics class this semester (and hell, is pretty fundamental to calculating probability in general-- normal distribution).

Either of these points leave a bit of leeway on their own, but together they're damning IMO.

That said, that doesn't change the fact that online polls are only polling a specific subsection of people and can be skewed/aren't the best tools for judging overall popularity.
That's probably why Nintendo ignored the Ballot results for Smash 4 DLC and instead let it influence Ultimate's base roster; Bayonetta would come out of nowhere whereas everybody would be expecting the likes of K. Rool. And Bayonetta could potentially help push her games on the Wii U, while K. Rool 'aint pushing much as DK is an evergreen franchise and he hadn't been a part of it for a decade.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

The Bayonetta deal should basically be common sense.

She had data added in an update put out exactly two weeks after the Ballot began.
Updates have to be tested and vetted before they're put on the server.
Negotiations with a major 3rd party company over the usage of a character and representation of a franchise in something as big as Smash wouldn't happen overnight. There'd be internal discussion inside Nintendo and the Smash team whether the character would be feasible, they'd have to approach Sega about it, there'd almost certainly be some back and forth where they ironed things out before signing off on a contract, etc. .

Completely ignoring fan polls, it seems very unlikely that she was decided on after the Ballot began.

However, while I don't think fan polls are a good measure of overall popularity, they're a decent measure of what's popular among the fans.
The consistent #1 during the Smash Ballot was K. Rool. Bayonetta wasn't even a top 30 character in most of them. K. Rool explicitly got into Ultimate off of "strong Ballot performance".

You can go "but the Smash Ballot was much larger than any fan poll", and I'd agree.
But once so many results are accrued the more adherent they become; that's something that was brought up in my statistics class this semester (and hell, is pretty fundamental to calculating probability in general-- normal distribution).

Either of these points leave a bit of leeway on their own, but together they're damning IMO.

That said, that doesn't change the fact that online polls are only polling a specific subsection of people and can be skewed/aren't the best tools for judging overall popularity.
That's probably why Nintendo ignored the Ballot results for Smash 4 DLC and instead let it influence Ultimate's base roster; Bayonetta would come out of nowhere whereas everybody would be expecting the likes of K. Rool. And Bayonetta could potentially help push her games on the Wii U, while K. Rool 'aint pushing much as DK is an evergreen franchise and he hadn't been a part of it for a decade.

You still have to consider the source of your data when you're doing anything related to statistics though, and that's generally an area where I think a lot of people will argue that a lot of online fan polls don't necessarily mean much as they end up functioning as repeated trials of similar populations, if not essentially the same population that are also vulnerable to voluntary response bias of the most outspoken fan bases.

 

[The DanMan051]

You still have to consider the source of your data when you're doing anything related to statistics though, and that's generally an area where I think a lot of people will argue that a lot of online fan polls don't necessarily mean much as they end up functioning as repeated trials of similar populations, if not essentially the same population that are also vulnerable to voluntary response bias of the most outspoken fan bases.

That's definitely true, and is the biggest strike against that on it's own.

However, with how early work seems to have begun on Bayonetta it's very unlikely that Ballot data was even referenced. On top of K. Rool explicitly getting in off of "strong Ballot support".

Let's run with that 1.6 million votes count people had thrown around. That was split among thousands of characters-- it's very likely that the top character only got in the ballpark of 1 or 2% of the actual vote. 1% of 1.6 million is 16,000; not that big, in the grand scheme of things.

...Another reason why the Ballot seems kinda fishy in the first place. Without pre-determined selections, basically everything was on the table meaning whoever "won" the Ballot would've only appealed to a very small amount of voters.

 

[PhantomShab]

Personally, I think people are really overexaggerating how iconic Bayo is.

Calling her iconic at all is already over exaggerating.

 

[Captain Shades]

Until someone can show me reliable proof that a noticeable percentage of casuals and people who've quit playing video games can recognize her, that's the stance I'm going to take.

Does the internet’s biggest feminist count, as she has mentioned Bayonetta at least twice and caused up roar within the gaming community because of it

Or how about

 

[Deleted member]

Regarding Bayo's popularity during Smash 4 DLC cycle, people often forget a couple of factors that most likely affected her popularity:
-The game while not selling much, generated a lot of buzz when it was revealed as an exclusive for the Wii U.
-The game was nominated for Game of the Year at the 2014 VGAs
-You could normally see people pester Kamiya every day on Twitter regarding her on smash during the ballot process

Popularity overall is quite inconsistent and fluctuates a lot.

(Plus if Bayo wasn't popular in the ballot, I doubt Sakurai had mentioned it. The fanpolls are quite faulty for mentions already said in this thread, but the biggest red flag is that CV performed decently whereas in the fanpolls they didn't perform so well)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well first you are quoting for Bayonetta 2 for the Switch and not its votes for WiiU. But even if you did take this data Undertale still out beat Bayonetta 2 in Switch reviews on the site. https://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/release-date/available/switch/metascore And just by combining the fan polls that me and Cutie Gwen have posted it would appear Sans would have been one of the top choices. Again not accurate for the actual poll but I'm still not seeing this massive fan base you claim is out there.



Those polls are SUPPOSE to be different because they are getting votes from different groups of people from different fan bases. Then when you combine those polls you start to see trends from the different fan bases. Trends like Geno, Sans, Banjo Kazooie, and of course no Bayo. Don't you find it really odd that of those 1.8 million people who voted none of the Bayo fans never voted on any of the other fan's polls? I mean I can't even find one where she reaches the top 50 in any of them.

So, I don't know how to make this any more clearer and I've been talking in circles a lot more than I like. So if you want to think you won then fine but I'm done with trying to teach statistics 101.

Now that I'm on a different device I can see the Source Gaming one. You realizr Bayonetta was up pretty high on 2 of thr polls you listed right? Even among the top 10 on both

Then there's how popular she was on sites like neogaf and tumblr

A theory I heard is that the most 'realizable' meant 'already has a model to use and would be a newcomer'. Obviously I can't back this up as Sakurai never clarified it and the fact Bayo's model got changed by shrinking her legs down to regular people size may seem to slighlty contradict that.

Fair enough. It's clear that neither of us are willing to change our points. Kudos to you as you did somewhat say it respectfully

Does the internet’s biggest feminist count, as she has mentioned Bayonetta at least twice and caused up roar within the gaming community because of it
View attachment 217013

Or how about

View attachment 217014

Tbf the Gaga tweet is very recent with it being in late 2018.

 

[osby]

A theory I heard is that the most 'realizable' meant 'already has a model to use and would be a newcomer'. Obviously I can't back this up as Sakurai never clarified it and the fact Bayo's model got changed by shrinking her legs down to regular people size may seem to slighlty contradict that.

Just to note: Compared to Ultimate newcomers, Bayonetta has a humanoid body that can be built on another fighter, doesn't require negotiations with a new company and doesn't have a new mechanic like ink.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Just to note: Compared to Ultimate newcomers, Bayonetta has a humanoid body that can be built on another fighter, doesn't require negotiations with a new company and doesn't have a new mechanic like ink.

Not to mention I think Sakurai wanted to wait out on Inkling to prevent backlash from people who'd yell "THE BALLOT WAS A SHAM THEY NEVER INTENDED FOR US TO GET A CHARACTER WE WANTED BUT TO PROMOTE THEIR NEW GAME!'. Be honest, Smash fans would be pretty spiteful towards Splatoon if that happened like with Bayonetta. Not to mention Inkling was considered annoying as **** and still is iirc

 

[Captain Shades]

Tbf the Gaga tweet is very recent with it being in late 2018.

OP never specified a time period and said to bring a picture of her to stores to see if people recognized her, so I assume OP still believes that Bayonetta is super obscure and not popular.

One good way to judge the iconicness of a video game character is by going in a place like Walmart or your local mall, showing people a picture of the character, and asking them if they recognize said character. If you get a lot of "no" responses, switch over to an area where people might be more familiar with video games, like Gamestop or the electronics section. If you still get a lot of "no"s, then your character probably isn't as iconic as you think it is.

That was just my personal opinion. I think that if Smash did not have 3rd parties then we'd have to go to the bottom of the barrel for new characters. Make an all Nintendo Smash roster now and try and convince someone that that roster is more hype than playing as Cloud Strife fighting Mario.

Agreed, there are only a few big characters left from Nintendo, and I highly doubt Nintendo, or more importantly Sakurai, would even use them.

Dixie Kong is big, but the DK franchise is typically overlooked by Japanese Nintendo, so I doubt Dixie would ever get in without some sort of ballot like K Rool needed.

Bandana Dee is popular, but Sakurai believes that Kirby is a 3 character franchise and seems to refuse to work with much of the new material as games past Super Star only get spirits and Final Smashes at best.

Waluigi is hated by Sakurai, so it doesn’t matter how far we go, he’ll never be in.

Zelda is always relegated to 3 fighters because that’s how Sakurai believes the franchise should be as all other characters are non-important to him. This means that big picks like Skull Kid, Impa, and Tingle are pretty much no shows.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

OP never specified a time period and said to bring a picture of her to stores to see if people recognized her, so I assume OP still believes that Bayonetta is super obscure and not popular.




Agreed, there are only a few big characters left from Nintendo, and I highly doubt Nintendo, or more importantly Sakurai, would even use them.

Dixie Kong is big, but the DK franchise is typically overlooked by Japanese Nintendo, so I doubt Dixie would ever get in without some sort of ballot like K Rool needed.

Bandana Dee is popular, but Sakurai believes that Kirby is a 3 character franchise and seems to refuse to work with much of the new material as games past Super Star only get spirits and Final Smashes at best.

Waluigi is hated by Sakurai, so it doesn’t matter how far we go, he’ll never be in.

Zelda is always relegated to 3 fighters because that’s how Sakurai believes the franchise should be as all other characters are non-important to him. This means that big picks like Skull Kid, Impa, and Tingle are pretty much no shows.

Gallow's post was about how they didn't believe Bayonetta could be popular enough to score high on the ballot, adding something that was years after the fact is irrelevant as for all we know Gaga learned of Bayonetta because of her addition in Smash

Dixie's circumstances aren't nearly as bad as K.Rool's were due to how Nintendo believed K.Rool genuinely wasn't popular, Dixie outright starred in her own game and the beloved Tropical Freeze pushed the hell out of there. Not entirely the same

Can't argue about that but Sakurai made a drawing of the franchise celebrating it's anniversary and he included Bandana Dee in there for what it's worth

Sakurai does not hate Waluigi. If anything, making him the highlight for Assist Trophies would show that he knows how beloved he is and wants to use him as an example. Assist Trophies aren't meant to go "Haha your character is never getting in!" but rather "They couldn't make it in but they can still fight!" He even has a plushie of Waluigi

There's no evidence that Sakurai actually believes this, all we know is that Sakurai doesn't prioritize Zelda newcomers too much but that doesn't mean he believes that only the Triforce wielders should be playable

 

[UserKev]

There's no evidence that Sakurai actually believes this, all we know is that Sakurai doesn't prioritize Zelda newcomers too much but that doesn't mean he believes that only the Triforce wielders should be playable

You can say both scenarios are basically the same. Skull Kid is legitimately requested and has established star power. The "Sakurai only prioritizing the Triforce wielders" barrier can easily be discontinued but somehow he incredibly doesn't.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

You can say both scenarios are basically the same. Skull Kid is legitimately requested and has established star power. The "Sakurai only prioritizing the Triforce wielders" barrier can easily be discontinued but somehow he incredibly doesn't.

Skull Kid's in a bit of a weird place right now to be honest. Majora's Mask has been a consistent marketing piece for Nintendo on its own and Majora's Mask continues to have a certain legacy of its own, but Skull Kid doesn't quite live up to that reputation himself. Especially as a request for Smash, he wasn't much of a figure during Smash 4 speculation and only seemed to really become a request post LoZ18's push for him and the absurdities of chair theory in Ultimate's time frame (I want to say he had his peak popularity during Brawl, but I wasn't around then and I'm not as certain then). I certainly remember Ghirahim as the villain of the Smash 4 days.

And I think Zelda has just rotated its cast as much as the fan favorites have for Smash that its difficult to nail down one as the definitive pick. Tingle never really reaches huge peaks, Impa kind of exists on the periphery of speculation thanks to Hyrule Warriors and Skyward Sword during that era, and other villains are kind of all over the place. I think that has really contributed to the Zelda content in game, and the changes he makes to the main cast across different Smash games helps better represent the Zelda games of the era while not going as far as to include a new character I think. You may disagree the overall decision making process on Sakurai's part, but I do think it makes some degree of sense when you consider those factors and his approach. Though, I do think Toon Link in particular should have seen more changes for Ultimate and he should have left Young Link as the traditional Link for players.

 

[Captain Shades]

Gallow's post was about how they didn't believe Bayonetta could be popular enough to score high on the ballot, adding something that was years after the fact is irrelevant as for all we know Gaga learned of Bayonetta because of her addition in Smash

That wasn’t Gallow’s post that was Cosmic77 . In Cosmic’s post, there was a claim that everyone is over exaggerating Bayo’s popularity and made it really general with time frame, saying we should go to places like Walmart or GameStop with a picture of Bayonetta and see if people recognize her, and if not then she isn’t popular. The evidence fit with Cosmic’s post, not Gallow’s.

Dixie's circumstances aren't nearly as bad as K.Rool's were due to how Nintendo believed K.Rool genuinely wasn't popular, Dixie outright starred in her own game and the beloved Tropical Freeze pushed the hell out of there. Not entirely the same

Not really, she went through the same hoops K Rool did until DKCTF. Diddy was really the only consistent reoccurring character in the 2000s. Also K Rool got in Smash, not her, that has to say something.

I don’t think Nintendo of Japan ever really considered DK a big franchise, but rather a sub series of Mario. Until Retro took over, DK was super mismanaged and many elements were forgotten from cast to gameplay. I don’t think anyone in Nintendo’s Japanese studios knows how to handle DK or they don’t see any reason to treat it as a franchise rather than a gimmick machine. I think interviews that had Sakurai speak about how he was surprised that people wanted K Rool (The main villain of a franchise that sells upwards into the millions, and was a literal mascot of the SNES) really speaks volumes to how much Nintendo doesn’t get DK. Dixie would be considered more doable in most circumstances, but I feel the cultural divide between the western studios making DK and Nintendo being a Japanese company has really caused many issues in getting Donkey Kong content.

Also Retro and Nintendo of Japan seem to operate differently. I’m not quite sure Nintendo developers are as knowledgeable on Retro’s projects as we think, or they may have little care. Retro may bring back Dixie, but Nintendo of Japan may have limited knowledge. Not to bring up something else, but Nintendo of Japan did completely forget that Retro made 3 whole Metroid games when making Other M, and had to create alternate timelines to fix the simple continuity that they managed to break. There is proof that a cultural divide has put the company in a bad position with certain franchises before, so I doubt DK would be much different.

Sakurai does not hate Waluigi. If anything, making him the highlight for Assist Trophies would show that he knows how beloved he is and wants to use him as an example. Assist Trophies aren't meant to go "Haha your character is never getting in!" but rather "They couldn't make it in but they can still fight!" He even has a plushie of Waluigi

I still don’t think he’d ever put him in though, I mean we do have this sort of jerky Miiverse post

There's no evidence that Sakurai actually believes this, all we know is that Sakurai doesn't prioritize Zelda newcomers too much but that doesn't mean he believes that only the Triforce wielders should be playable

That kinda explains the problem though. We most likely won’t see Zelda newcomers out of Sakurai that aren’t clones just because he puts priority into things that are usually less requested. You could make the claim that it’s about importance or the lack of definitive picks, but I’d argue that with the franchise he can take risks. He does it all the time with FE, choosing characters that have yet to even appear in a game, but a way bigger and more pushed for newcomers franchise like Zelda can’t do a bit of the same? Zelda is a mascot franchise for Nintendo, they can poll a Pokémon and have new characters and I’m sure most would be fine with it. Plus it isn’t like there are no clearly popular picks, he knows Skull Kid is huge as he had to address fans on Miiverse about him being an assist, showing his popularity has gone on for a while and not just during Ultimate.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That wasn’t Gallow’s post that was Cosmic77 . In Cosmic’s post, there was a claim that everyone is over exaggerating Bayo’s popularity and made it really general with time frame, saying we should go to places like Walmart or GameStop with a picture of Bayonetta and see if people recognize her, and if not then she isn’t popular. The evidence fit with Cosmic’s post, not Gallow’s.


Not really, she went through the same hoops K Rool did until DKCTF. Diddy was really the only consistent reoccurring character in the 2000s. Also K Rool got in Smash, not her, that has to say something.

I don’t think Nintendo of Japan ever really considered DK a big franchise, but rather a sub series of Mario. Until Retro took over, DK was super mismanaged and many elements were forgotten from cast to gameplay. I don’t think anyone in Nintendo’s Japanese studios knows how to handle DK or they don’t see any reason to treat it as a franchise rather than a gimmick machine. I think interviews that had Sakurai speak about how he was surprised that people wanted K Rool (The main villain of a franchise that sells upwards into the millions, and was a literal mascot of the SNES) really speaks volumes to how much Nintendo doesn’t get DK. Dixie would be considered more doable in most circumstances, but I feel the cultural divide between the western studios making DK and Nintendo being a Japanese company has really caused many issues in getting Donkey Kong content.

Also Retro and Nintendo of Japan seem to operate differently. I’m not quite sure Nintendo developers are as knowledgeable on Retro’s projects as we think, or they may have little care. Retro may bring back Dixie, but Nintendo of Japan may have limited knowledge. Not to bring up something else, but Nintendo of Japan did completely forget that Retro made 3 whole Metroid games when making Other M, and had to create alternate timelines to fix the simple continuity that they managed to break. There is proof that a cultural divide has put the company in a bad position with certain franchises before, so I doubt DK would be much different.


I still don’t think he’d ever put him in though, I mean we do have this sort of jerky Miiverse post
View attachment 217336


That kinda explains the problem though. We most likely won’t see Zelda newcomers out of Sakurai that aren’t clones just because he puts priority into things that are usually less requested. You could make the claim that it’s about importance or the lack of definitive picks, but I’d argue that with the franchise he can take risks. He does it all the time with FE, choosing characters that have yet to even appear in a game, but a way bigger and more pushed for newcomers franchise like Zelda can’t do a bit of the same? Zelda is a mascot franchise for Nintendo, they can poll a Pokémon and have new characters and I’m sure most would be fine with it. Plus it isn’t like there are no clearly popular picks, he knows Skull Kid is huge as he had to address fans on Miiverse about him being an assist, showing his popularity has gone on for a while and not just during Ultimate.

My mistake

K.Rool getting in before Dixie means one thing. K.Rool was considered more worthy of being added. Not too surprising really, different body shape from the rest of the cast already opened the door to being more unique alongside the fact Smash hasn't included too many large characters for a while.

Considering DK still sold well and the cartoon got dubbed, DK is certainly popular in Japan so again, I doubt it. Also Other M and Retro are irrelevant, it's about what Yoshio Sakamoto wanted, as that man's singlehandedly responsible for pretty much all of Other M's problems. Retro being on the case wouldn't have fixed it

Sakurai possibly never adding Waluigi doesn't mean he hates Waluigi. That Miiverse post is a reference to the guy's trophy description. It only comes across as spiteful or malicious if you deliberately look at the post as such

Pokemon is literally the best selling media franchise on the planet with literally near 900 possible choices. Fire Emblem wasn't intended to have this many characters with 4 of them being cheaply made clones and Corrin was added for promotional reasons after the dev team managed to convince Sakurai to put them in as he was initially on the fence about their inclusion. Zelda didn't have anything to promote at the time so it's irrelevant. Skull Kid not being in isn't too farfetched when you remember you need to create an entirely original moveset for the character and again, Assist Trophies are often used to say "We couldn't make them playable but they're still here as a consolation prize!" Meaning more often than not, the character's very popular in their own right. While I do agree Zelda should have a more diverse cast in Smash, it's not a sign that Sakurai secretly hates Zelda or anything. Also I'm pretty sure Skull Kid was the first newly announced Assist Trophy so of course he'd have to clarify it when all people would have is an image. He had to clarify Ashley when he forgot to mention that and Nintendo clarified Chrom was only Robin's Final Smash back in 4

 

[Captain Shades]

K.Rool getting in before Dixie means one thing. K.Rool was considered more worthy of being added. Not too surprising really, different body shape from the rest of the cast already opened the door to being more unique alongside the fact Smash hasn't included too many large characters for a while.

No it was because of the ballot. We discussed this heavily in the DK thread talking about how he doesn’t get a good amount of representation. K Rool was chosen because Sakurai revealed that he was the true winner of the ballot. Had there not been a ballot, DK would probably be left with only 2 characters and probably wouldn’t have even gotten the one assist he has as the Klap Trap assist seems heavily tied to K Rool. DK has barely anything in terms of content when compared to other franchises of its caliber.

Basically, what I’m trying to say is, had the ballot not existed and had fans not rallied behind K Rool, we would have had a different character in his place. DK on its own isn’t big enough for Nintendo to really use it that often, that’s why it’s best years have been in the west with either Texas or British developers.

Considering DK still sold well and the cartoon got dubbed, DK is certainly popular in Japan so again, I doubt it. Also Other M and Retro are irrelevant, it's about what Yoshio Sakamoto wanted, as that man's singlehandedly responsible for pretty much all of Other M's problems. Retro being on the case wouldn't have fixed it

We also discussed this on the thread, as many were saying that it doesn’t have popularity in Japan. I guess we are in agreement on that. I think the conclusion we came to is that even though it is popular in Japan, that doesn’t mean Nintendo knows what to do with it as DK became gimmicks as they loaned it out to Japanese developers or in house teams. They also significantly shortened DK’s cast of characters as they frequently neglected many of even some of the major characters. Diddy was the only reoccurring character throughout the 2000s with K Rool, Dixie, Funky, and Tiny making a few appearances here or there. The west basically made DK as we know it today, so Nintendo was practically handed someone else’s baby once Rare left.

I don’t think Nintendo, and by extension Sakurai, really understand DK or the series popularity. They always seem shocked by how big the fan base is, which Sakurai admitted to with K Rool as he never thought a DK villain would be the most popular choice for a character or really have much demand. In a way, I think Dixie has a better chance now than ever as Sakurai had to sit there and see the DK fan base take over his ballot, but there is a rocky history there between fans and Nintendo just like Metroid. I think now Nintendo knows there is a huge market, but had there not been a ballot, I doubt Dixie or K Rool ever would have made it as DK seems to be nothing more than a Mario sub-series to them.

Sakurai possibly never adding Waluigi doesn't mean he hates Waluigi. That Miiverse post is a reference to the guy's trophy description. It only comes across as spiteful or malicious if you deliberately look at the post as such

I mean he could have just said he was an assist, he just stressed that Skull Kid was one, but for Waluigi he had to add the “Just because you try doesn’t mean you’ll make it to battle.”

I’m sure Waluigi is nothing more than a joke, but for that reason I doubt he’d ever be added.

While I do agree Zelda should have a more diverse cast in Smash, it's not a sign that Sakurai secretly hates Zelda or anything. Also I'm pretty sure Skull Kid was the first newly announced Assist Trophy so of course he'd have to clarify it when all people would have is an image. He had to clarify Ashley when he forgot to mention that and Nintendo clarified Chrom was only Robin's Final Smash back in 4

I never meant to imply that he hates Zelda, but I definitely think he likes things a certain way. I think he considers the main 3 good enough and fine for Zelda’s representation, so he doesn’t need to go back and work on the franchise more. Most of my original comments were saying that many of the big fan requests wouldn’t get met, so him keeping Zelda to 3 would certainly limit future choices and Skull Kid, Impa, and Tingle wouldn’t be seen as options for Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

No it was because of the ballot. We discussed this heavily in the DK thread talking about how he doesn’t get a good amount of representation. K Rool was chosen because Sakurai revealed that he was the true winner of the ballot.

Citation needed.

 

[Captain Shades]

Citation needed.

Sorry, he just got a ton of votes. Coming off the DK thread were there was most likely some hyperbole, but seeing as he was topping poles and was referred to as a ballot pick, it may not be the worst assumption. Plus Bayonetta data was found in Wii U to have been there prior to the ballot. We also can’t forget the “Realizable Picks” part that may have. Most likely the true winners were K Rool, Ridley? (He was probably picked for numerous years of requests), and the Castlevania characters.

https://www.sourcegaming.info/2018/07/03/bayo106/
https://nintendosoup.com/sakurai-king-k-rool-was-very-popular-on-the-smash-bros-fighter-ballot/

 

[Cosmic77]

We're really getting off-topic in this thread, aren't we?

Regarding Sakurai and Zelda newcomers, no, he doesn't hate them. You can thank the bad timing of the Zelda games as the main reason why we haven't gotten anyone yet. TP and BotW were just a tad shy of being able to be considered during the roster selection. A lack of agreement on who the next Zelda rep should be is also an issue I'd imagine.

Regarding Waluigi, I don't think Sakurai has neglected him because he sees Waluigi as a joke. If I had to take a guess, Sakurai probably feels like there are more unique options available, and Waluigi would be more of a "add the next most important character" addition. I'm sure he'll get added eventually though, so long as he remains popular.

 

[Oddball]

To be fair, a lot of people that support Waluigi see him as a joke.