Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

[Izanagi97]

To be fair, a lot of people that support Waluigi see him as a joke.

Does mean he'd make for the perfect Joke Character

 

[PhantomShab]

Especially as a request for Smash, he wasn't much of a figure during Smash 4 speculation

That's because his assist trophy was the very first one revealed. I saw plenty of disappointment at the time and everyone gave up on him because getting sent to assist trophy hell is a hard NEVER EVER for that particular Smash Bros. Even on the tiny chance that's actually not the case, it doesn't stop people from dropping support, which in the long run could probably hurt that character's chances of becoming an actual fighter in the next game. Just another negative aspect of assist trophies.

 

[The DanMan051]

We're really getting off-topic in this thread, aren't we?

Regarding Sakurai and Zelda newcomers, no, he doesn't hate them. You can thank the bad timing of the Zelda games as the main reason why we haven't gotten anyone yet. TP and BotW were just a tad shy of being able to be considered during the roster selection. A lack of agreement on who the next Zelda rep should be is also an issue I'd imagine.

Regarding Waluigi, I don't think Sakurai has neglected him because he sees Waluigi as a joke. If I had to take a guess, Sakurai probably feels like there are more unique options available, and Waluigi would be more of a "add the next most important character" addition. I'm sure he'll get added eventually though, so long as he remains popular.

Or it's because Zelda is already an established, evergreen franchise that has all the main characters added; not unlike the situation with Kirby. It's also a distant 3rd string to Mario and Pokemon, the only two series to really get "side characters" in Smash as unique fighters.

That's because his assist trophy was the very first one revealed. I saw plenty of disappointment at the time and everyone gave up on him because getting sent to assist trophy hell is a hard NEVER EVER for that particular Smash Bros. Even on the tiny chance that's actually not the case, it doesn't stop people from dropping support, which in the long run could probably hurt that character's chances of becoming an actual fighter in the next game. Just another negative aspect of assist trophies.

Yet Waluigi fans stick around. I'd say he's the only real actual "fan favorite" because of his popularity and being from a major series.

Also the vilification of Assist Trophies is something I'll never fail to find hilarious; if a character is an AT, then they weren't going to be playable to begin with. Viewing them as some personal slap in the face is a gross overreaction-- be happy with what you've got. Those feelings don't make much sense outside of in-the-moment.

 

[Opossum]

That's because his assist trophy was the very first one revealed. I saw plenty of disappointment at the time and everyone gave up on him because getting sent to assist trophy hell is a hard NEVER EVER for that particular Smash Bros. Even on the tiny chance that's actually not the case, it doesn't stop people from dropping support, which in the long run could probably hurt that character's chances of becoming an actual fighter in the next game. Just another negative aspect of assist trophies.

Ridley, Chrom, and Dark Samus had existing roles in Smash 4 but still had strong confirmed ballot support despite that. If so many people dropped support, that's squarely on them.

 

[Captain Shades]

Ridley, Chrom, and Dark Samus had existing roles in Smash 4 but still had strong confirmed ballot support despite that. If so many people dropped support, that's squarely on them.

I feel there is a big difference though...

Ridley has always been the biggest supported character since Melee. Sakurai has gone on record multiple times prior to the ballot to say that he wanted to include him. Even if he wasn’t big in the ballot, he was probably an inevitability to begin with.

Chrom and Dark Samus are echo fighters, so their popularity doesn’t need to be as high to make them worth it. If there is a decent sized fan base, that’s good enough to justify a tweaked costume swap.

 

[UserKev]

I feel there is a big difference though...

Ridley has always been the biggest supported character since Melee. Sakurai has gone on record multiple times prior to the ballot to say that he wanted to include him. Even if he wasn’t big in the ballot, he was probably an inevitability to begin with.

Chrom and Dark Samus are echo fighters, so their popularity doesn’t need to be as high to make them worth it. If there is a decent sized fan base, that’s good enough to justify a tweaked costume swap.

Dude's examples are contradictory. If anything, Ghirahim was noticeably requested Smash Wii U 3DS's speculation scene and Zelda still got literally nothing.

 

[PhantomShab]

Yet Waluigi fans stick around. I'd say he's the only real actual "fan favorite" because of his popularity and being from a major series.

Also the vilification of Assist Trophies is something I'll never fail to find hilarious; if a character is an AT, then they weren't going to be playable to begin with. Viewing them as some personal slap in the face is a gross overreaction-- be happy with what you've got. Those feelings don't make much sense outside of in-the-moment.

You can say that exact same thing about DLC characters. Cloud wasn't going to be playable in Smash 4, but then DLC happened. Joker wasn't going to be playable in Smash Ultimate, but then DLC happened. DLC means that any character who didn't make it in still has a shot. This isn't the Wii era anymore where Nintendo couldn't add updates to their games. But apparently assist trophy characters still can't be upgraded despite that because I guess Sakurai gets to pick and chose what gets to "make sense" in Super Smash Brothers. Can't have our immersion ruined if Skull Kid's assist trophy shows up during an 8 player Skull Kid mirror match.

I won't ever be happy with characters I've wanted for years being assist trophies. Nobody really is even if they want to pretend otherwise. I never have items on so I never get to have that 1/59 chance of having my parade rained on unless I'm going through a single player mode. I also find the assist trophies themselves annoying and intrusive in battles, although that also goes for a lot of the new items added in Smash 4 and Ultimate. Hell, Skull Kid isn't even an assist trophy you'd want to summon anyway since he even screws over the guy who summoned him. Every time an assist trophy is revealed it's always a flood of "r.i.p" and "*insert character/character's fans here* BTFO". Can't really be happy if I have nothing to be happy with.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I feel there is a big difference though...

Ridley has always been the biggest supported character since Melee. Sakurai has gone on record multiple times prior to the ballot to say that he wanted to include him. Even if he wasn’t big in the ballot, he was probably an inevitability to begin with.

Chrom and Dark Samus are echo fighters, so their popularity doesn’t need to be as high to make them worth it. If there is a decent sized fan base, that’s good enough to justify a tweaked costume swap.

That just proves the point more then, Ridley was one of the only characters Sakurai outright said "No, I am not going to do it" about back in that now dated email, about how Sakurai felt he wouldn't work being smaller. Not to mention Little Mac was the first Assist who got promoted and he was only popular outside Japan

 

[osby]

You can say that exact same thing about DLC characters. Cloud wasn't going to be playable in Smash 4, but then DLC happened. Joker wasn't going to be playable in Smash Ultimate, but then DLC happened. DLC means that any character who didn't make it in still has a shot. This isn't the Wii era anymore where Nintendo couldn't add updates to their games. But apparently assist trophy characters still can't be upgraded despite that because I guess Sakurai gets to pick and chose what gets to "make sense" in Super Smash Brothers. Can't have our immersion ruined if Skull Kid's assist trophy shows up during an 8 player Skull Kid mirror match.

I won't ever be happy with characters I've wanted for years being assist trophies. Nobody really is even if they want to pretend otherwise. I never have items on so I never get to have that 1/59 chance of having my parade rained on unless I'm going through a single player mode. I also find the assist trophies themselves annoying and intrusive in battles, although that also goes for a lot of the new items added in Smash 4 and Ultimate. Hell, Skull Kid isn't even an assist trophy you'd want to summon anyway since he even screws over the guy who summoned him. Every time an assist trophy is revealed it's always a flood of "r.i.p" and "*insert character/character's fans here* BTFO". Can't really be happy if I have nothing to be happy with.

"Pretend otherwise"?

Stop speaking for other people. Seeing Spring Man, Akira, Yuri and Bomber Man genuinely made me happy because even though I wanted them to be playable, there was a chance that they wouldn't even be in and I'd take over an item over nothing in anyday.

Also, unpopular opinion again: Assist Trophy characters' fans need to stop acting like their characters denied a second chance in DLC. Most likely they had no chance to begin with and DLC will consist of brand new franchises.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's funny seeing people go "Assist trophies are terrible!" when I popped off because my baby Shovel Knight somehow got in the game and **** like SomecallmeJohnny going "If Alucard doesn't have the Crissaegrim I'm gonna be pissed" and then getting really excited when he did have it

 

[Opossum]

That just proves the point more then, Ridley was one of the only characters Sakurai outright said "No, I am not going to do it" about back in that now dated email, about how Sakurai felt he wouldn't work being smaller. Not to mention Little Mac was the first Assist who got promoted and he was only popular outside Japan

Second, actually, if you lump in Poké Balls with Assists, thanks to Charizard.

You can say that exact same thing about DLC characters. Cloud wasn't going to be playable in Smash 4, but then DLC happened. Joker wasn't going to be playable in Smash Ultimate, but then DLC happened. DLC means that any character who didn't make it in still has a shot. This isn't the Wii era anymore where Nintendo couldn't add updates to their games. But apparently assist trophy characters still can't be upgraded despite that because I guess Sakurai gets to pick and chose what gets to "make sense" in Super Smash Brothers. Can't have our immersion ruined if Skull Kid's assist trophy shows up during an 8 player Skull Kid mirror match.

I won't ever be happy with characters I've wanted for years being assist trophies. Nobody really is even if they want to pretend otherwise. I never have items on so I never get to have that 1/59 chance of having my parade rained on unless I'm going through a single player mode. I also find the assist trophies themselves annoying and intrusive in battles, although that also goes for a lot of the new items added in Smash 4 and Ultimate. Hell, Skull Kid isn't even an assist trophy you'd want to summon anyway since he even screws over the guy who summoned him. Every time an assist trophy is revealed it's always a flood of "r.i.p" and "*insert character/character's fans here* BTFO". Can't really be happy if I have nothing to be happy with.

I'd rather a character I want become/remain an Assist than not be there at all. Seeing how mainstays like Saki got cut entirely this time around, I'm thrilled that Starfy, a character I've wanted playable for the past ten years or so, is still here, even if only as an Assist. I'd have loved to see Tiki playable too, but realistically it was likely never going to happen, and I knew that. That being said, I was thrilled when she was revealed as an Assist. I'm a Waluigi fan through and through, but I still don't take his Assist status as a slap in the face, but if anything, a consolation prize as was intended.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I think people are looking at assist trophies the wrong way. It just means they were never picked to be playable in the first place. IIRC Sakurai and his team decide the roster in the early project plan, and the rest of the game content like items and whatnot are picked as development goes on. So Waluigi for example wasn't picked immediately as an assist trophy before the roster was completed, he got picked after the roster selection was completed and the team wanted to represent him in some way. Assist trophies are a blessing in a way, it means those that weren't lucky enough to be selected in the project plan are still in the game in some form. That's why I'm not very upset when my wanted characters are assist trophies, it makes me glad that the team wanted to portray these characters in an important role even if they can't make them playable.

 

[YoshiandToad]

To be honest with characters like Chrom and Knuckles appearing in multiple roles on screen at the same time, I don't really even see what the issue is anymore about upgrading assist trophies.

Playable Waluigi and assist trophy Waluigi co-existing makes as much sense as Chrom attacking Chrom thanks to Robin's Final Smash or Knuckles doing loop de loops in the background of Green Hill whilst also being summoned as a trophy. If assists could be used in boss battles we may even have got double Rathalos too.

Sakurai clearly doesn't care that much about limiting everyone to one role and I'm surprised we still continue to pretend this is a genuine hard and fast rule and not another 'hasn't happened...yet' fan rule.

 

[ProfPeanut]

You're equivocating equals there - a character vs. cameoing for a different character, or an assist showing up at the same time as a background element. Not that the latter's even true - Knuckles the Assist Trophy can't show up in Green Hill Zone.

The reason Assist Trophies won't get chosen for DLCs is because there's still a massive number of great candidates for Sakurai and co. to pick from. The Assist Trophy role is already their designated cameo role in any given Smash game, and Smash is nowhere near lacking in potential newcomers to have to renege on those choices.

 

[Captain Shades]

That just proves the point more then, Ridley was one of the only characters Sakurai outright said "No, I am not going to do it" about back in that now dated email, about how Sakurai felt he wouldn't work being smaller. Not to mention Little Mac was the first Assist who got promoted and he was only popular outside Japan

He actually never really said no. All he brought up was that Ridley wouldn’t feel like Ridley if he made him a character. At worst, he mentioned that his inclusion may be nearly impossible and would be slow. Sakurai never seemed to have changed his mind on Ridley as he tries to create him in every Smash title, but just can’t get it to work, so I’m willing to bet that Ridley was on the table for Ultimate regardless of the ballot. To follow up, Ridley isn’t the first to have this issues as both the Animal Crossing Villager and Pac-Man were left out of previous titles, Ridley just happened to take one more.

I also want to mention that Ridley’s popularity is also given time to flourish, his roles are usually shown off last minute, so hype doesn’t die down until the game comes out. Skull Kid on the other hand had massive popularity in Brawl, but was then an assist like 2 months into Smash Wii U’s two year cycle. Ridley’s popularity may have died down had he been an assist shown early into the game’s life. Also, you cannot really compare Ridley to assists as assists have never been risen to character status in the same game, but stage elements have as Donkey Kong is on 75M, and Toon Link is part of the Spirit Tracks stage. Many still believed in Ridley as he was a boss that could get cut or replaced when playable as TL is in Spirit Tracks.

Finally I want to bring up that Ridley’s popularity never seems to be tethered to the ballot? Maybe I’m missing something, but all I see are the west likes him and that he’s been a long time request. If this is true than Ridley didn’t even need fans to support him into the ballot, he was guaranteed at least one more try in Smash Ultimate just because of his long running popularity. An advantage that no one else got as it seemed to be ballot or bust.

 

[The DanMan051]

You can say that exact same thing about DLC characters. Cloud wasn't going to be playable in Smash 4, but then DLC happened. Joker wasn't going to be playable in Smash Ultimate, but then DLC happened. DLC means that any character who didn't make it in still has a shot. This isn't the Wii era anymore where Nintendo couldn't add updates to their games. But apparently assist trophy characters still can't be upgraded despite that because I guess Sakurai gets to pick and chose what gets to "make sense" in Super Smash Brothers. Can't have our immersion ruined if Skull Kid's assist trophy shows up during an 8 player Skull Kid mirror match.

I won't ever be happy with characters I've wanted for years being assist trophies. Nobody really is even if they want to pretend otherwise. I never have items on so I never get to have that 1/59 chance of having my parade rained on unless I'm going through a single player mode. I also find the assist trophies themselves annoying and intrusive in battles, although that also goes for a lot of the new items added in Smash 4 and Ultimate. Hell, Skull Kid isn't even an assist trophy you'd want to summon anyway since he even screws over the guy who summoned him. Every time an assist trophy is revealed it's always a flood of "r.i.p" and "*insert character/character's fans here* BTFO". Can't really be happy if I have nothing to be happy with.

Assist Trophy characters are characters that never had a shot at DLC; for example, ARMS has sold most of it's lifetime sales, so it's more beneficial to go with 1st party characters that can push upcoming games/3rd party characters that generate more hype and interest on average in general. Or how Smash tends to avoid side characters that aren't from Mario or Pokemon and is selective about them even then (Star Fox has Falco and Wolf, who were both late additions directly built off of Fox and Sheik got in Melee because of OoT hype more than anything).

Assist Trophies aren't blocking characters from being a playable character-- it's because they're blocked from being a playable character that they're ATs.

And I see you're back to being pretentious.
Is it possible that maybe strongly desiring a character to be added to a crossover fighting game for years and then throwing a fit about it when they aren't there is a tad unhealthy? I wanted Rex and Monster Hunter in Ultimate, but only began talking about them after Ultimate was announced and made my peace after the Final Direct that they wouldn't be getting in and were super unlikely as DLC.

Complaining about Assist Trophies is like complaining you got a $5 gift card instead of a $500 one in an open free-to-enter contest.

 

[UserKev]

I think people are looking at assist trophies the wrong way. It just means they were never picked to be playable in the first place. IIRC Sakurai and his team decide the roster in the early project plan, and the rest of the game content like items and whatnot are picked as development goes on. So Waluigi for example wasn't picked immediately as an assist trophy before the roster was completed, he got picked after the roster selection was completed and the team wanted to represent him in some way. Assist trophies are a blessing in a way, it means those that weren't lucky enough to be selected in the project plan are still in the game in some form. That's why I'm not very upset when my wanted characters are assist trophies, it makes me glad that the team wanted to portray these characters in an important role even if they can't make them playable.

I may shock some people but, I also look at Assist Trophies as the step to playability. Its definitely a hopeful entrance. Just, when the character is brought back as an assist trophy, its a different turn to underwhelming. Lyn's been an assist trophy since Brawl and has been relevant Smash Ultimate's speculation scene with historically decent support. I'm officially a Chrom hater at this point, how he still made the game over Lyn? Gtf.

 

[Opossum]

I may shock some people but, I also look at Assist Trophies as the step to playability. Its definitely a hopeful entrance. Just, when the character is brought back as an assist trophy, its a different turn to underwhelming. Lyn's been an assist trophy since Brawl and has been relevant Smash Ultimate's speculation scene with historically decent support. I'm officially a Chrom hater at this point, how he still made the game over Lyn? Gtf.

Because Chrom is an echo fighter and anyone who gives it more than a second of thought would realize Lyn couldn't be an echo.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Third party characters absolutely have a place in Smash. However I think there should be clear guidelines for who should and shouldn't be in. I'm against them using Smash as a cheap vehicle for promoting future planned titles because it sort of undermines the "prestige" of getting into Smash to begin with, and Joker definitely is a questionable addition. However, characters like Megaman, the Belmonts, Sonic, Pac-Man, Ryu and Bayonetta absolutely have earned their place as they are just as important to Nintendo's video game legacy as their own characters. People who fondly remember playing Mario on NES likely have just as fond memories of playing Castlevania or Megaman on the same system. Snake, while his start with Nintendo was a bumpy one, also earned his keep. The only third party character apart from Joker I could see people having a valid argument against is Cloud, as FF7 came out well after the point that the Final Fantasy series was divorced from Nintendo. It would made more sense to add someone like Terra from FF6. But as Cloud is part of the same "bloodline" of games, and one of the most popular ones in the series history, he can get away with it.

Overall I think Joker is the first and only third-party character I kind of have a problem with. Not just simply for the fact that he's a literal who in the west, but that he's being used almost exclusively to promote games on other platforms that have very little to do with Nintendo. Last I heard some spinoff Persona game was coming to the Switch and that's the justification they're using to bring him in, but ultimately I feel he's nowhere near as important to Nintendo as the rest of the third party characters.

 

[meleebrawler]

Third party characters absolutely have a place in Smash. However I think there should be clear guidelines for who should and shouldn't be in. I'm against them using Smash as a cheap vehicle for promoting future planned titles because it sort of undermines the "prestige" of getting into Smash to begin with, and Joker definitely is a questionable addition. However, characters like Megaman, the Belmonts, Sonic, Pac-Man, Ryu and Bayonetta absolutely have earned their place as they are just as important to Nintendo's video game legacy as their own characters. People who fondly remember playing Mario on NES likely have just as fond memories of playing Castlevania or Megaman on the same system. Snake, while his start with Nintendo was a bumpy one, also earned his keep. The only third party character apart from Joker I could see people having a valid argument against is Cloud, as FF7 came out well after the point that the Final Fantasy series was divorced from Nintendo. It would made more sense to add someone like Terra from FF6. But as Cloud is part of the same "bloodline" of games, and one of the most popular ones in the series history, he can get away with it.

Overall I think Joker is the first and only third-party character I kind of have a problem with. Not just simply for the fact that he's a literal who in the west, but that he's being used almost exclusively to promote games on other platforms that have very little to do with Nintendo. Last I heard some spinoff Persona game was coming to the Switch and that's the justification they're using to bring him in, but ultimately I feel he's nowhere near as important to Nintendo as the rest of the third party characters.

That's funny, I don't remember them announcing Scramble during the 3.0 trailer. Who said they had to justify anything about his inclusion? Only select fans.

 

[Deleted member]

Not just simply for the fact that he's a literal who in the west

[citation needed]

 

[osby]

Overall I think Joker is the first and only third-party character I kind of have a problem with. Not just simply for the fact that he's a literal who in the west, but that he's being used almost exclusively to promote games on other platforms that have very little to do with Nintendo. Last I heard some spinoff Persona game was coming to the Switch and that's the justification they're using to bring him in, but ultimately I feel he's nowhere near as important to Nintendo as the rest of the third party characters.

Just because Persona isn't a dead franchise and still getting games doesn't mean Joker was added to promote a game.

 

[Opossum]

Third party characters absolutely have a place in Smash. However I think there should be clear guidelines for who should and shouldn't be in. I'm against them using Smash as a cheap vehicle for promoting future planned titles because it sort of undermines the "prestige" of getting into Smash to begin with, and Joker definitely is a questionable addition. However, characters like Megaman, the Belmonts, Sonic, Pac-Man, Ryu and Bayonetta absolutely have earned their place as they are just as important to Nintendo's video game legacy as their own characters. People who fondly remember playing Mario on NES likely have just as fond memories of playing Castlevania or Megaman on the same system. Snake, while his start with Nintendo was a bumpy one, also earned his keep. The only third party character apart from Joker I could see people having a valid argument against is Cloud, as FF7 came out well after the point that the Final Fantasy series was divorced from Nintendo. It would made more sense to add someone like Terra from FF6. But as Cloud is part of the same "bloodline" of games, and one of the most popular ones in the series history, he can get away with it.

Overall I think Joker is the first and only third-party character I kind of have a problem with. Not just simply for the fact that he's a literal who in the west, but that he's being used almost exclusively to promote games on other platforms that have very little to do with Nintendo. Last I heard some spinoff Persona game was coming to the Switch and that's the justification they're using to bring him in, but ultimately I feel he's nowhere near as important to Nintendo as the rest of the third party characters.

Persona 5 sold better than any other Atlus game and got nominated for numerous awards, including Game of the Year at The Game Awards in 2017. He was far from a Literal Who.

 

[Deleted member]

Just because Persona isn't a dead franchise and still getting games doesn't mean Joker was added to promote a game.

bruh it's this kind of mentality that stings

people really do be acting like characters aren't added for the fans just because their series/character isn't dead in the water with no hope of coming back outside of sakurai blessing them

 

[PhantomShab]

Assist Trophy characters are characters that never had a shot at DLC; for example, ARMS has sold most of it's lifetime sales, so it's more beneficial to go with 1st party characters that can push upcoming games/3rd party characters that generate more hype and interest on average in general. Or how Smash tends to avoid side characters that aren't from Mario or Pokemon and is selective about them even then (Star Fox has Falco and Wolf, who were both late additions directly built off of Fox and Sheik got in Melee because of OoT hype more than anything).

Assist Trophies aren't blocking characters from being a playable character-- it's because they're blocked from being a playable character that they're ATs.

And I see you're back to being pretentious.
Is it possible that maybe strongly desiring a character to be added to a crossover fighting game for years and then throwing a fit about it when they aren't there is a tad unhealthy? I wanted Rex and Monster Hunter in Ultimate, but only began talking about them after Ultimate was announced and made my peace after the Final Direct that they wouldn't be getting in and were super unlikely as DLC.

Complaining about Assist Trophies is like complaining you got a $5 gift card instead of a $500 one in an open free-to-enter contest.

"They weren't going to be playable in the first place."

Why is that suddenly a defense that I've seen everywhere now? Some kind of concentrated discord effort or something? Never saw this until super recently.

I don't have to like assist trophies and I'm never going to.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll just mention that if a 3rd party character has had history with Nintendo (such as game releases on Nintendo consoles, including debut titles), then he/she is eligible for Smash Bros. involvement; PAC-MAN and Mega Man are a few notable examples.

Cloud was originally the odd one of the bunch though, since his debut title was never released on a Nintendo console when he was revealed as a DLC fighter for Smash 3DS / Wii U.

 

[osby]

"They weren't going to be playable in the first place."

Why is that suddenly a defense that I've seen everywhere now? Some kind of concentrated discord effort or something? Never saw this until super recently.

I don't have to like assist trophies and I'm never going to.

It's being realistic and logical from the information we have. "Assist Trophies steal the chances of characters!" mentality is ignorant of what we know about the planning and development of Smash games.

Also, I think you are being defensive yourself, nobody said you have to like them. Just don't pretend like everybody has to think like you or some characters are disqualified just because they have in-game models.

 

[PhantomShab]

It's being realistic and logical from the information we have. "Assist Trophies steal the chances of characters!" mentality is ignorant of what we know about the planning and development of Smash games.

Also, I think you are being defensive yourself, nobody said you have to like them. Just don't pretend like everybody has to think like you or some characters are disqualified just because they have in-game models.

I don't have to like them, but that won't stop everyone from telling me why I'm wrong for not liking them lol. So assist trophies aren't disqualified even though they were always apparently disqualified from the very beginning?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't have to like them, but that won't stop everyone from telling me why I'm wrong for not liking them lol. So assist trophies aren't disqualified even though they were always apparently disqualified from the very beginning?

No, it's that the reason ATs happen is because Sakurai goes "Alright, I finished the finalized main roster, this is all that we're planning. Oh my, it seems there's a lot of characters people want who didn't get in the final planned cut. I know, I'll make them an Assist trophy! Like that, the character will still be in the game!" In the case of DLC, we don't know how far in advance DLC is planned

 

[Cosmic77]

Overall I think Joker is the first and only third-party character I kind of have a problem with. Not just simply for the fact that he's a literal who in the west, but that he's being used almost exclusively to promote games on other platforms that have very little to do with Nintendo. Last I heard some spinoff Persona game was coming to the Switch and that's the justification they're using to bring him in, but ultimately I feel he's nowhere near as important to Nintendo as the rest of the third party characters.

People exaggerate Joker's iconicness in both ways. I wouldn't say Joker is a literal who in the West due to the success of P5, but I also wouldn't say he's someone who I could bring up in a conversation without worrying that the person wouldn't have heard of his franchise before. If you don't know what P5 is, then there's a good chance you've never even heard of Persona period.

No, it's that the reason ATs happen is because Sakurai goes "Alright, I finished the finalized main roster, this is all that we're planning. Oh my, it seems there's a lot of characters people want who didn't get in the final planned cut. I know, I'll make them an Assist trophy! Like that, the character will still be in the game!" In the case of DLC, we don't know how far in advance DLC is planned

Basically this. I'm pretty sure the roster is decided before ATs are chosen, not the other way around. It's okay to not like ATs, but I hope those who do realize that an AT is the next best thing to becoming playable. We've already seen them work in favor of Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle.

 

[Diddy Kong]

By the way, if any of you people complaining about Joker 'promoting the enemy' or whatnot want Banjo Kazooie then you really need to reconsider your priorities. Sure, Banjo USED to be a Nintendo character but now he's fully owned by Microsoft. I don't know about you but I think that's more anti-Nintendo than a character who is owned by a company that only makes games

Coming back at this post, since I missed out on the discusion and started reading from where I left... What?

Banjo-Kazooie had literally ONE appearance on XBox, and that's after almost 20 years of Rare being Microsoft property... Banjo-Kazooie is a legendary gaming franchise from the very same developers who brought Donkey Kong Country, a franchise still running on Nintendo, critically acclaimed, and Top 5 selling franchise of Nintendo whom's success Retro Studios tried to emulate and build off from by DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze.

This is NO comparison.

Banjo fans are more likely to be Nintendo fans than Joker fans. And you know that.

Pretty bad arguement.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Coming back at this post, since I missed out on the discusion and started reading from where I left... What?

Banjo-Kazooie had literally ONE appearance on XBox, and that's after almost 20 years of Rare being Microsoft property... Banjo-Kazooie is a legendary gaming franchise from the very same developers who brought Donkey Kong Country, a franchise still running on Nintendo, critically acclaimed, and Top 5 selling franchise of Nintendo whom's success Retro Studios tried to emulate and build off from by DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze.

This is NO comparison.

Banjo fans are more likely to be Nintendo fans than Joker fans. And you know that.

Pretty bad arguement.

Yet it's owned by 'the enemyyyyy' which is why people are pissy about Joker as his game is only on 'the enemyyyyy'.

 

[Captain Shades]

Yet it's owned by 'the enemyyyyy' which is why people are pissy about Joker as his game is only on 'the enemyyyyy'.

Yo Minecraft Steve made Microsoft and Nintendo friends, he should join as he ain’t an enemy.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You're equivocating equals there - a character vs. cameoing for a different character, or an assist showing up at the same time as a background element. Not that the latter's even true - Knuckles the Assist Trophy can't show up in Green Hill Zone.

The reason Assist Trophies won't get chosen for DLCs is because there's still a massive number of great candidates for Sakurai and co. to pick from. The Assist Trophy role is already their designated cameo role in any given Smash game, and Smash is nowhere near lacking in potential newcomers to have to renege on those choices.

Then why have so many newcomers in Smash Ultimate have had a sort of "degrading role" in the previous title?

Isabelle was an AT, she still got in Ultimate.
Dark Samus was an AT, she still got in Ultimate.
Ridley was a stage hazard, still got in Ultimate.
Chrom was a Final Smash, still got in Ultimate, still is part of the same exact Final Smash even lol

If we count the Mii Costumes and character alts we got even more!

Inkling was Gunner Mii costume, K.Rool a Brawler Mii Costume, Dark Samus was even also a Samus costume, Daisy has been a costume since Melee... Brawl had Little Mac as an AT, and Palutena as part of Pit's Final Smash.

I mean, it's not like am expecting ATs to turn playable by DLC. But you act like this never happens, when it clearly does, and Ultimate has been the BIGGEST proof so far.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yo Minecraft Steve made Microsoft and Nintendo friends, he should join as he ain’t an enemy.

And Joker's gotten multiple Nintendo games on Nintendo yet people here are still mad

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yet it's owned by 'the enemyyyyy' which is why people are pissy about Joker as his game is only on 'the enemyyyyy'.

No, the arguement is that Joker has no familarity with Nintendo's fan base, because he was never before on a Nintendo system. Banjo debuted on N64, and came around the same time as the very first Smash Bros. so veteran Smash Bros. fans are VERY LIKELY to have one of the most critically acclaimed N64 3D platforming games alongside legendary games as Mario 64 and Zelda Ocarina of Time...

You've made way better arguements. And I say that out of respect.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

No, the arguement is that Joker has no familarity with Nintendo's fan base, because he was never before on a Nintendo system. Banjo debuted on N64, and came around the same time as the very first Smash Bros. so veteran Smash Bros. fans are VERY LIKELY to have one of the most critically acclaimed N64 3D platforming games alongside legendary games as Mario 64 and Zelda Ocarina of Time...

You've made way better arguements. And I say that out of respect.

First of all, as many people stated, Persona Q2.
Second, you're deliberately misinterpretting my argument as "Banjo has nothing to do with Nintendo" instead of what it actually is, which is "If you believe Joker's main game not being on Nintendo systems is terrible and proof as to why he's actually a terrible DLC pick, then you should do the same for a character who is flat out owned by a direct competitor"

 

[Diddy Kong]

First of all, as many people stated, Persona Q2.
Second, you're deliberately misinterpretting my argument as "Banjo has nothing to do with Nintendo" instead of what it actually is, which is "If you believe Joker's main game not being on Nintendo systems is terrible and proof as to why he's actually a terrible DLC pick, then you should do the same for a character who is flat out owned by a direct competitor"

Not being on Nintendo at all should be compared to debuting the entire franchise, and everything that matters inside the franchise with the very same cast of characters and all on Nintendo during the same time that the first Smash was made?

Okay sure.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Not being on Nintendo at all should be compared to debuting the entire franchise, and everything that matters inside the franchise with the very same cast of characters and all on Nintendo during the same time that the first Smash was made?

Okay sure.

Ok but Joker literally had a Nintendo game before he was confirmed for Smash. I literally JUST told you this. If Microsoft managed to keep it successful to this day then you'd never be seeing him on good old Nintendo again. Hell, if you include Smash, Joker has almost as many games on Nintendo as Banjo Kazooie did because BK had two GBA games that literally nobody knows about

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ok but Joker literally had a Nintendo game before he was confirmed for Smash. I literally JUST told you this. If Microsoft managed to keep it successful to this day then you'd never be seeing him on good old Nintendo again. Hell, if you include Smash, Joker has almost as many games on Nintendo as Banjo Kazooie did because BK had two GBA games that literally nobody knows about

That's a better point. And I didn't know that, or simply forgot.