Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

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Cutie Gwen

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We were gonna have a character that made people horny either way, but atleast Bayonetta gave us all fears in Smash 4

They had no reason to complain about Bayo over Shantae to the point where they found the latter a bigger star

And Ridley...his hype never left

What did Richter do? Asking out of curiosity
Richter gave Simon some moves, is from 2 of the most popular games in the franchise and has the most iconic line
 

volbound1700

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So the news finally dropped for P5S, which turns out to NOT be a Persona 5 Switch port, but a Musou/Warriors spinoff. As someone who will probably never own a Playstation console, please remind me why I should care about Joker again? Why should I purchase him in SSBU? Why should I buy this Persona 5 Scramble?

The thing is, after Joker was announced for Smash, practically everyone assumed that Persona 5 would come to Switch. And with some upcoming Persona 5 announcements, that seemed inevitable. Well, joke's on us I guess, because as of now, Joker in Smash Bros. seems to be a fancy Playstation advertisement. I never cared about Joker before his inclusion in Smash, and afterwards I still didn't care much but there was a chance I might try out his game if it came to Switch. Now I'm back to being completely apathetic and I don't even feel like purchasing him in Smash.

Nintendo is my gaming platform of choice. Why should the Smash DLC packs go to characters that don't have anything to do with Nintendo and won't be coming to Nintendo anyway (aside from spinoffs I guess)? Is a Playstation owner going to purchase a Switch and Super Smash Bros. because Joker is in it now? I would bet the only reason a lot of people bought Joker in Smash is because they assumed they would also be able to play Persona 5 on Switch at some point. At least in Corrin's and Bayonetta's cases, we had characters whose games we could play on the same platform, and Bayonetta is basically a 2nd party character at this point anyway. Even Cloud's game eventually came to Switch (though no news about the FF7 remake). I feel like the rest of the DLC packs are going to be 3rd party characters whose games may or may not come to Switch and who will probably never show up again in Smash anyway. Instead of that, why couldn't we get the remainder of the fan-favorite and fan-requested characters, that Nintendo fans, the ones who own and play Super Smash Bros., will want to purchase?

As for my point about 3rd party characters not belonging in Smash....I mean characters that literally have nothing to do with Nintendo, or extremely little. 3rd parties like Mega Man or Pac-man or Ryu make sense because they've had a strong history with Nintendo, at least in the past. But Joker? Cloud? Steve? Doom Guy? Master Chief? Or whatever other 3rd party characters people talk about? I'd prefer they stay away. If we're going to get advertisements in the form of character DLC, at least make it an advertisement for a game I can buy on the same console as Smash. Otherwise it's a waste of a "slot" (and yes I did just say that).
I have been attacked constantly for saying the same thing. Joker doesn't fit the style either. Give us Nintendo characters or third-party characters known for working with Nintendo.

The big 3 third parties on Smash 4 were great: Sonic, Megaman, Pacman. I know Snake came before them but he has been a semi-odd pick. He only works because of his NES franchises. Ryu and Simon Belmont were great adds. However, the third-party has been derailed since.

I would rather see more characters from the existing third-party franchises: Tails, Knuckles, Bass, etc. or third-parties that fit better with Nintendo systems like the following:

1. Bomberman - Always supporting Nintendo platform and classic character
2. Rayman - Started on PS but has primarily moved to supporting Nintendo. You even have Rabbid + Mario spinoff
3. Banjo-Kazooie - Rare classic, nuff said
4. Crash Bandicoot - Similar to Rayman, he started with PS but has moved more to Nintendo franchises
5. Ryu Hayabusa - Classic NES franchise - Ninja Gaiden
6. Erdrick - Dragon quest has always supported Nintendo. This one does look likely.
7. Geno - Fan favorite that people have been clamoring for years (if not decades) to have in Smash

Why aren't these third parties in the top list? Any of them would have been a better pick than Joker (or Bayonetta from Smash 4 era. At least Bayonetta is on Nintendo platforms).
 

Cutie Gwen

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I have been attacked constantly for saying the same thing. Joker doesn't fit the style either. Give us Nintendo characters or third-party characters known for working with Nintendo.

The big 3 third parties on Smash 4 were great: Sonic, Megaman, Pacman. I know Snake came before them but he has been a semi-odd pick. He only works because of his NES franchises. Ryu and Simon Belmont were great adds. However, the third-party has been derailed since.

I would rather see more characters from the existing third-party franchises: Tails, Knuckles, Bass, etc. or third-parties that fit better with Nintendo systems like the following:

1. Bomberman - Always supporting Nintendo platform and classic character
2. Rayman - Started on PS but has primarily moved to supporting Nintendo. You even have Rabbid + Mario spinoff
3. Banjo-Kazooie - Rare classic, nuff said
4. Crash Bandicoot - Similar to Rayman, he started with PS but has moved more to Nintendo franchises
5. Ryu Hayabusa - Classic NES franchise - Ninja Gaiden
6. Erdrick - Dragon quest has always supported Nintendo. This one does look likely.
7. Geno - Fan favorite that people have been clamoring for years (if not decades) to have in Smash

Why aren't these third parties in the top list? Any of them would have been a better pick than Joker (or Bayonetta from Smash 4 era. At least Bayonetta is on Nintendo platforms).
Ridley didn't fit the cartoony style of Smash yet here he is, with his reveal trailer having him violenty crush Mario's skull in a manner that reminds me of the old Devilman OVA (Devilman is inherently incredibly gorey and has nudity and sexual assault so if you want to look it up you've been warned). Smash has evolved beyond Nintendo and that's ultimately a good thing. Also I have a few problems with your picks for 'better' choices
1: Bomberman is actually in the game, just not playable
2: That's a lie, Rayman didn't move to primarily supporting Nintendo, it just became a multiplatform franchise. Hell, Rayman Legends was meant to be a Wii U exclusive but they delayed the already finished game so they could make it a multiplatform game with a simultaneous launch alongside all platforms
3: Owned by Microsoft, which should also be inherently non-Nintendo now if Joker's main game not being on Nintendo should be a problem
4: Only problem I have with this argument is that you say 'franchises' which is a nitpick, although Crash is still mostly remembered for his history with Sony
5: No argument with that although it took a while for Ninja Gaiden to return to Nintendo platforms iirc
6: Considering you only mentioned Erdrick on this website months after the Brave datamining, you would have never considered Erdrick on this list due to not even knowing them
7: Sakurai's wording when talking about Geno heavily implies Square is what's keeping Geno out and honestly it's easy to see why, they don't care for Geno as Geno is only popular among people who grew up in the SNES era, and even then he's still rather niche
 

The DanMan051

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I have been attacked constantly for saying the same thing. Joker doesn't fit the style either. Give us Nintendo characters or third-party characters known for working with Nintendo.

The big 3 third parties on Smash 4 were great: Sonic, Megaman, Pacman. I know Snake came before them but he has been a semi-odd pick. He only works because of his NES franchises. Ryu and Simon Belmont were great adds. However, the third-party has been derailed since.
Smash has no set "style" to it; that's part of the appeal.

Also, Snake was the first 3rd party character added in Smash-- an out of left field pick that generated a ton of hype.

Nintendo themselves have said they want to use the DLC to expand the games audience... and that means picking characters are currently relevant and don't have a huge crossover with the dedicated playerbase instead of platformer characters that haven't had a new game in years or 20 year old Mario one-offs that are only propped up by the echo chamber (if Waluigi is still an AT, then how on earth does Geno have a realistic shot? It only makes logical sense they'd want to prioritize the character with actual mass appeal).

The only character you listed that has a realistic shot is Erdrick, and they're practically confirmed from datamining and insider info (which is probably when you even heard about him in the first place).
If he shows up, do you want to know why he was picked?
Because Dragon Quest is gigantic in Japan and he can push DQXI:S in the West.

Has it ever occurred to you that the character choices aren't meant for you? That they're a win-win for Nintendo and the gaming public and that you just happen to be on the periphery and don't have to buy them?
 
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I have been attacked constantly for saying the same thing. Joker doesn't fit the style either. Give us Nintendo characters or third-party characters known for working with Nintendo.
Joker fits perfectly, he has tons of style and is very cartoonish, so it contrasts but still fits Smash’s style. Heck, Smash was designed for a Persona inclusion as the menus were all built to emulate P5’s.

The big 3 third parties on Smash 4 were great: Sonic, Megaman, Pacman. I know Snake came before them but he has been a semi-odd pick. He only works because of his NES franchises. Ryu and Simon Belmont were great adds. However, the third-party has been derailed since.
In what way? All the selected characters are on Nintendo platforms in some way and are all super important to gaming as a whole. They add tons of variety to the mix too.

To go through your picks
Banjo-Kazooie - Rare classic, nuff said
Yeah, but is Banjo an icon? He was only popular on N64, which wasn’t even the highest selling console at the time. His franchise barely even exists anymore, and no one but die hard fans will know who he is. Banjo didn’t complete start or revolutionize a genre like any of the 3rd parties in Smash at the moment, and he isn’t that big of a figure in general. Heck, Rare isn’t even that well known now a days. In total Banjo had maybe 3 notable games and a few handheld endeavors before ultimately being forgotten to time.

Geno - Fan favorite that people have been clamoring for years (if not decades) to have in Smash
Geno’s not going to happen! Why would Square make one of their representatives a character from a Mario title that hasn’t been relevant in roughly 2 to 3 decades. Geno is not well known outside the Smash bubble, it’d be weird to see an unknown side character take up a 3rd party slot amongst the greats like Mega Man and Sonic just because he’s specific to Nintendo.

1. Bomberman - Always supporting Nintendo platform and classic character
2. Rayman - Started on PS but has primarily moved to supporting Nintendo. You even have Rabbid + Mario spinoff
4. Crash Bandicoot - Similar to Rayman, he started with PS but has moved more to Nintendo franchises
5. Ryu Hayabusa - Classic NES franchise - Ninja Gaiden
6. Erdrick - Dragon quest has always supported Nintendo. This one does look likely.
Weirdly enough, I’m fine with the rest. Crash was Essentially the 3rd mascot of his generation, being a rival to Mario and Sonic. He also has modern titles so he’ll still be well known.

Bomber Man is more we’ll known than I think people give him credit for, but I do see the argument of him being obscure. He’s like a middle of the road between well known and obscure. I’d also put Rayman here as he’s popular, but maybe not very mainstream, or at least not as much as the Rabbids. (He was big enough to have a parody on MAD though?)

Erdrik is getting in, no questions on that choice

Ryu is pretty well known as Ninja Gaiden was seen as the hardest NES game out there, so he’s a keeper to me.
 
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TrainerZN

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So the news finally dropped for P5S, which turns out to NOT be a Persona 5 Switch port, but a Musou/Warriors spinoff. As someone who will probably never own a Playstation console, please remind me why I should care about Joker again? Why should I purchase him in SSBU? Why should I buy this Persona 5 Scramble?

The thing is, after Joker was announced for Smash, practically everyone assumed that Persona 5 would come to Switch. And with some upcoming Persona 5 announcements, that seemed inevitable. Well, joke's on us I guess, because as of now, Joker in Smash Bros. seems to be a fancy Playstation advertisement. I never cared about Joker before his inclusion in Smash, and afterwards I still didn't care much but there was a chance I might try out his game if it came to Switch. Now I'm back to being completely apathetic and I don't even feel like purchasing him in Smash.

Nintendo is my gaming platform of choice. Why should the Smash DLC packs go to characters that don't have anything to do with Nintendo and won't be coming to Nintendo anyway (aside from spinoffs I guess)? Is a Playstation owner going to purchase a Switch and Super Smash Bros. because Joker is in it now? I would bet the only reason a lot of people bought Joker in Smash is because they assumed they would also be able to play Persona 5 on Switch at some point. At least in Corrin's and Bayonetta's cases, we had characters whose games we could play on the same platform, and Bayonetta is basically a 2nd party character at this point anyway. Even Cloud's game eventually came to Switch (though no news about the FF7 remake). I feel like the rest of the DLC packs are going to be 3rd party characters whose games may or may not come to Switch and who will probably never show up again in Smash anyway. Instead of that, why couldn't we get the remainder of the fan-favorite and fan-requested characters, that Nintendo fans, the ones who own and play Super Smash Bros., will want to purchase?

As for my point about 3rd party characters not belonging in Smash....I mean characters that literally have nothing to do with Nintendo, or extremely little. 3rd parties like Mega Man or Pac-man or Ryu make sense because they've had a strong history with Nintendo, at least in the past. But Joker? Cloud? Steve? Doom Guy? Master Chief? Or whatever other 3rd party characters people talk about? I'd prefer they stay away. If we're going to get advertisements in the form of character DLC, at least make it an advertisement for a game I can buy on the same console as Smash. Otherwise it's a waste of a "slot" (and yes I did just say that).
(Before than anything, sorry if my english have mistakes)
Hello Mr. Mewtwo, I have a really unpopular opinion, but I want to sahre with anyone here.
Joker belongs be in Smash, And you now what more? Snake and Cloud are awesome characters, not only in his game, but in smash, this characters are actually, neccesary for smash, here is why:

I am a huge nintendo fan, Mother, Pokemon,Fire Emblem and Super Mario series have games what are in my heart, but I love videogames too, I was little bit late when I bought a psx, a ps2 and ps3, but the Metal Gear Solid is one of the most important games of the history, that game changed the industry, yeah, I know, someone who only have nintendo consoles why have to care about this characters? maybe, dont must be care about them, but you know what? Smash Bros evolve to a Bigger crossover, not only nintendo videogames, but videogames characters, and Sakurai is working really hard to make the greatest tributte of videogame world.

Solid Snake... Why the people complain so much about him? All the people tells me: "Not Metal Gear in Nntendo, Snake dont ****ing belong in Smash"
-And what? Snake was added because Kojima and Sakurai are friends, you prefer Snake was added because Metal gear can make money to nintendo? you dont see he was added because he is a Videogame icon? you really prefer added a character because Money more than his legacy?
that why I love Snake be in Smash, he was the first step in te right direction, becuase snake demostred as your character have a legacy, is a icon, he can be in Smash, have history whit nintendo or not.

regard to the argument "but why you put a character who nobody knows because is from playstation?"
here in Europe, Nobody knows about Ness, I love the character, I play the game but I doubt Nintendo is thinking:MMMMMM I gonna put Lucas in smash because I want the people play MOTHER 3 illegally. (Yes I know, was sakurai, not nintendo who wants the character in smash)
anyways, the people who complain about Snake and Cloud... you really know why this characters are beloved? why you dont try something different?

the first time I played melee (this was one of my first games), I only knew about pokemon and mario, I dont have idea of Zelda, EarthBound, Metroid,
when Brawl vas released, I can Identify Snake because I see playing my cousin metal gear, and when I see him in Brawl I tell me: He is here for something, something special, and I was right.I never complain about Snake in Smash because complain about a character unknown for me is stupid.

Smash Bros is the greatest crossover ever, we have rathalos like a boss, Cloud strife as a charcater, and now the main character of a Persona Game, a series who nobody whould believe will have a character in Smash but,.. now what? I think Snake demostred anything is possible in Smash, only look the roster, is a videogame crossover dream, I think a nintendo fan cant complain when the game have 3 links, characters from dead series, a ****ing Robot toy as a character.

Characters like Snake and Cloud are neccesary because bring Variety to smash, all fandoms can be learn about the other games, try something new,

Yeah, even for me the persona series are games really unknown, however, I played Persona 3 and Persona 5, that are really good games, and the experience I have whit that, I want to share with all.

JOKER BELONGS IN SMASH

I dont want anyone in Smash, I want the best for smash, I want good games represented in Smash but if we only the people think about games of nintendo, we can miss masterpieces from outside.


One last thing, maybe if you read all of this, wants to say me: "you forgot to say about the final fantasy 1-7, ff 9-10, metal gear solid twin snake, 3ds and shin megami tensei are in nintendo consoles" I know this, but its not the point.
 

Cutie Gwen

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here in Europe, Nobody knows about Ness, I love the character, I play the game but I doubt Nintendo is thinking:MMMMMM I gonna put Lucas in smash because I want the people play MOTHER 3 illegally.
You know, I think that's something lots of people forget about as here in Europe, we didn't get Earthbound until 5 years ago with the Wii U virtual console
 
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The only character you listed that has a realistic shot is Erdrick, and they're practically confirmed from datamining and insider info (which is probably when you even heard about him in the first place).
Erdrick isn't "all but confirmed". It's gonna take more than some leakers who haven't gotten **** right for DLC so far (Note the DLC part; DLC's a different beast from the base game altogheter) and a vague-ass codename that could apply to so many other characters (remember when people thought Joker's codename was for MGS Raiden?) for me to say he's basically confirmed. I feel our Squeenix rep is probably Erdrick anyways, but it's not a lock in the slightest (and if he is in the game, I don't think he's "Brave")
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Erdrick isn't "all but confirmed". It's gonna take more than some leakers who haven't gotten **** right for DLC so far (Note the DLC part; DLC's a different beast from the base game altogheter) and a vague-*** codename that could apply to so many other characters (remember when people thought Joker's codename was for MGS Raiden?) for me to say he's basically confirmed. I feel our Squeenix rep is probably Erdrick anyways, but it's not a lock in the slightest.
The only people I saw arguing that the Jack codename could be Raiden were talking what people would have speculated had Joker not already been confirmed
 
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I don't entirely agree with this as Killer Instinct made a pretty big comeback with Battletoads slowly becoming more mainstream to the point people got very excited at the announcement of a new game at Microsoft's E3 last year
Ahh...forgot. Microsoft exclusives seem to rarely be talked about as usually the joke is that they have none.

Yeah, Rare May be making a comeback after years in Kinect hell.
 

Manonymous

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Yikes. How do we even get to that low level of reading comprehension?
Nowhere did I say that Bomberman isn't "iconic". I specifically said:


I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of acting like he was bigger than Cloud and used some hard numbers to back it up (FFVII has sold 11 million, Bomberman's entire series has sold 10 million-- and 1 game doing that much compared to an entire series is also notable because a good chunk of each game in the series' sales will have been from repeat buyers. Nevermind FFVII's popularity and representation in general).

I'd appreciate it if you paid attention to context instead of putting words in my mouth for the sake of trying a cheap shot.
How do we know a character is iconic : go outside, and tells to people : "Did you already saw this character ?". My parents don't know Cloud, but they know Bomberman. Bomberman is more iconic outside the gaming realm you know ?
 

Cutie Gwen

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How do we know a character is iconic : go outside, and tells to people : "Did you already saw this character ?". My parents don't know Cloud, but they know Bomberman. Bomberman is more iconic outside the gaming realm you know ?
If Cloud's one game sold more than the entire Bomberman franchise then this doesn't add up. A remake of FFVII was easily the most loudly demanded remake of any game for a long time to the point that the announcement back in E3 2015 was met with pure joy, and the fact that the remake is still alive and that we're getting more news at E3 made everyone lose their goddamn minds
 

Manonymous

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If Cloud's one game sold more than the entire Bomberman franchise then this doesn't add up. A remake of FFVII was easily the most loudly demanded remake of any game for a long time to the point that the announcement back in E3 2015 was met with pure joy, and the fact that the remake is still alive and that we're getting more news at E3 made everyone lose their goddamn minds
Okay, but that's still in the gaming realm. That doesn't mean anything that Bomberman R was one of the first game of the Switch, which is a familial console. Nintendo knows that they could make a lot of money with this game. Bomberman is iconic. Cloud is, but for the gamers. Final Fantasy, while being big, was not really well known during the era where Mario, Sonic, Pikachu or DK were popular (maybe not Pikachu). But Bomberman was.

I might be wrong, but sales don't mean you're popular. Tetris sold really well, but how many people who barely touched it knew that Tetris was Russian ? Or the name of the man behind it ? For people who don't really play games, there are more chances that they know Bomberman and not Cloud (but they might have trouble to name Bomberman).
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Okay, but that's still in the gaming realm. That doesn't mean anything that Bomberman R was one of the first game of the Switch, which is a familial console. Nintendo knows that they could make a lot of money with this game. Bomberman is iconic. Cloud is, but for the gamers. Final Fantasy, while being big, was not really well known during the era where Mario, Sonic, Pikachu or DK were popular (maybe not Pikachu). But Bomberman was.
Look man I like Bomberman too but this is sad. Not only did Final Fantasy 7 change gaming by making RPGs very popular ever since, but it's one of the biggest PS1 titles. Where are you getting the idea that Bomberman is still somehow more well-known? Not to mention Pokemon was HUGE in the 90's, EVERYONE knew Pikachu. I think your argument is misguided. I feel your argument is "Bomberman is a very casual franchise meaning people who aren't hardcore into gaming know him" but again, we have numbers to prove that Cloud is still more iconic
 
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If Cloud's one game sold more than the entire Bomberman franchise then this doesn't add up. A remake of FFVII was easily the most loudly demanded remake of any game for a long time to the point that the announcement back in E3 2015 was met with pure joy, and the fact that the remake is still alive and that we're getting more news at E3 made everyone lose their goddamn minds
Actually there's two ways it arguably could;

Way 1:
Bomberman's design is very unique and striking and doesn't really look like many other characters out already.
Cloud, as famous as he is, could still be confused for another spiky haired individual. I know it's practically a meme about 'anime swordsman' but Cloud's design doesn't stand out as much as Bomberman's would to the average person.

Way 2:
Bomberman being the face and name of the series probably would be easier to name for those unfamiliar with gaming purely due to knowing the name of the game. Like how that meme about "Why can't Metroid crawl" is referring to Samus. They'd have to pull a little deeper from the memory banks to specifically name Cloud as Cloud and not "Final Fantasy guy".

Both characters are indeed popular and yes, iconic easily recognised individuals, but I can imagine casual gaming fans not being able to get Cloud's name right as easily as Bomberman's for those two reasons even if they did recognise him.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Actually there's two ways it arguably could;

Way 1:
Bomberman's design is very unique and striking and doesn't really look like many other characters out already.
Cloud, as famous as he is, could still be confused for another spiky haired individual. I know it's practically a meme about 'anime swordsman' but Cloud's design doesn't stand out as much as Bomberman's would to the average person.

Way 2:
Bomberman being the face and name of the series probably would be easier to name for those unfamiliar with gaming purely due to knowing the name of the game. Like how that meme about "Why can't Metroid crawl" is referring to Samus. They'd have to pull a little deeper from the memory banks to specifically name Cloud as Cloud and not "Final Fantasy guy".

Both characters are indeed popular and yes, iconic easily recognised individuals, but I can imagine casual gaming fans not being able to get Cloud's name right as easily as Bomberman's fairly easily for those two reasons even if they did recognise him.
Who do you think made spiky haired anime swordsmen with overly sized swords popular though? It's like Evangelion, while not too remarkable these days literally changed everything back when it debuted
 

volbound1700

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Joker fits perfectly, he has tons of style and is very cartoonish, so it contrasts but still fits Smash’s style. Heck, Smash was designed for a Persona inclusion as the menus were all built to emulate P5’s.


In what way? All the selected characters are on Nintendo platforms in some way and are all super important to gaming as a whole. They add tons of variety to the mix too.

To go through your picks

Yeah, but is Banjo an icon? He was only popular on N64, which wasn’t even the highest selling console at the time. His franchise barely even exists anymore, and no one but die hard fans will know who he is. Banjo didn’t complete start or revolutionize a genre like any of the 3rd parties in Smash at the moment, and he isn’t that big of a figure in general. Heck, Rare isn’t even that well known now a days. In total Banjo had maybe 3 notable games and a few handheld endeavors before ultimately being forgotten to time.


Geno’s not going to happen! Why would Square make one of their representatives a character from a Mario title that hasn’t been relevant in roughly 2 to 3 decades. Geno is not well known outside the Smash bubble, it’d be weird to see an unknown side character take up a 3rd party slot amongst the greats like Mega Man and Sonic just because he’s specific to Nintendo.




Weirdly enough, I’m fine with the rest. Crash was Essentially the 3rd mascot of his generation, being a rival to Mario and Sonic. He also has modern titles so he’ll still be well known.

Bomber Man is more we’ll known than I think people give him credit for, but I do see the argument of him being obscure. He’s like a middle of the road between well known and obscure. I’d also put Rayman here as he’s popular, but maybe not very mainstream, or at least not as much as the Rabbids. (He was big enough to have a parody on MAD though?)

Erdrik is getting in, no questions on that choice

Ryu is pretty well known as Ninja Gaiden was seen as the hardest NES game out there, so he’s a keeper to me.
Bomber Man is far more well-known than Joker or Bayonetta which are only recent flavor of the months. Bomberman has been around since the NES era. I believe what hurt Bomberman's chances was having three Konami characters already. Richter Belmont likely took Bomberman's place because he was easier to make in a short span of time as a basic clone/semi-clone of Simon.

I believe what is hurting Rayman is Nintendo's dislike for non-Japanese made IP. Same is probably true of Crash.

I think a lot of this has to do with generations as well. People in their mid-20s and older are probably not big fans of Joker while the younger generations are probably defending him. You can see that I am a Vet on these boards and I noticed that a lot of the older members agree with me while the younger members are more into the newer franchises.

IMO, I wish that I could have had Miles "Tails" Prowers over Joker. It kind of sucks that Street Fighter and Castlevania got two characters but the Sonic series still only has one. The Sonic series could arguable be the biggest of the third party franchises (I believe Final Fantasy may beat it but very few others beat the Sonic series in popularity/iconic status. It is the face of SEGA).

Don't get me wrong, the game is great and I am nit-picking on small stuff but a lot of people, not just me, felt that Joker was an odd pick for a third-party, especially the kick-off character for the character pact.

Regarding Banjo-Kazooie, I believe he has one of the most popular threads on this website. Nuff said. Smash fans want him and he is still popular. That is why he has 500 strings of posts in his support thread.

I also think the Bomberman and Cloud argument is silly. Both are iconic. Bomberman, however, is more of the face of a franchise. Final Fantasy has different characters in each game (typically) so there isn't a face to their franchise. I would have preferred Black Mage from FF1 on the NES over Cloud.
 
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BlueMonk

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Bomber Man is far more well-known than Joker or Bayonetta which are only recent flavor of the months. Bomberman has been around since the NES era. I believe what hurt Bomberman's chances was having three Konami characters already. Richter Belmont likely took Bomberman's place because he was easier to make in a short span of time as a basic clone/semi-clone of Simon.

I believe what is hurting Rayman is Nintendo's dislike for non-Japanese made IP. Same is probably true of Crash.

I think a lot of this has to do with generations as well. People in their mid-20s and older are probably not big fans of Joker while the younger generations are probably defending him. You can see that I am a Vet on these boards and I noticed that a lot of the older members agree with me while the younger members are more into the newer franchises.

IMO, I wish that I could have had Miles "Tails" Prowers over Joker. It kind of sucks that Street Fighter and Castlevania got two characters but the Sonic series still only has one. The Sonic series could arguable be the biggest of the third party franchises (I believe Final Fantasy may beat it but very few others beat the Sonic series in popularity/iconic status. It is the face of SEGA).

Don't get me wrong, the game is great and I am nit-picking on small stuff but a lot of people, not just me, felt that Joker was an odd pick for a third-party, especially the kick-off character for the character pact.

Regarding Banjo-Kazooie, I believe he has one of the most popular threads on this website. Nuff said. Smash fans want him and he is still popular. That is why he has 500 strings of posts in his support thread.
Are Joker and Bayonetta really flavor of the month characters when their still popular years after their games had released? And this website is far from representative of what the smash community wants, having a large support thread is impressive but ultimately meaningless when Smash has millions of players.
 

volbound1700

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Are Joker and Bayonetta really flavor of the month characters when their still popular years after their games had released? And this website is far from representative of what the smash community wants, having a large support thread is impressive but ultimately meaningless when Smash has millions of players.
Wasn't the push from this website and other Smash websites for King K. Rool and Ridley a driving factor for their admittance to the game. I am seeing a similar push for Banjo-Kazooie.
 

TMNTSSB4

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Richter gave Simon some moves, is from 2 of the most popular games in the franchise and has the most iconic line
oh
Mario, Sonic, Pikachu or DK were popular (maybe not Pikachu)
That Pikachu comment of yours is a **** up my guy. That man was/is practically the 2nd biggest gaming icon of all time
Bomber Man is far more well-known than Joker or Bayonetta which are only recent flavor of the months
Flavors of the Months that have stayed very popular for years...
Richter Belmont likely took Bomberman's place because he was easier to make in a short span of time as a basic clone/semi-clone of Simon.
or...Sakurai wanted another Castlevania Rep in the form of Richter since Simon already used some of his move...and because he likes Castlevania...and because music
IMO, I wish that I could have had Miles "Tails" Prowers over Joker. It kind of sucks that Street Fighter and Castlevania got two characters but the Sonic series still only has one. The Sonic series could arguable be the biggest of the third party franchises (I believe Final Fantasy may beat it but very few others beat the Sonic series in popularity/iconic status. It is the face of SEGA).
When you realize that Sega gets to have more unique fighters due to their characters all being from different series (and how more than likely Sonic Team only wants Sonic as a playable character), there’ll be no reason to complain. Capcom and Konami only get 3 series repped while Sega has 4
 

osby

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Bomber Man is far more well-known than Joker or Bayonetta which are only recent flavor of the months. Bomberman has been around since the NES era. I believe what hurt Bomberman's chances was having three Konami characters already. Richter Belmont likely took Bomberman's place because he was easier to make in a short span of time as a basic clone/semi-clone of Simon.
Bayonetta is 10 years old and is about to get a new game. Persona is older than 20 years and still going strong. Persona 5 is getting regular games three years after its release.

Please build your arguments on objective facts, not biased and false claims.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Bomber Man is far more well-known than Joker or Bayonetta which are only recent flavor of the months. Bomberman has been around since the NES era. I believe what hurt Bomberman's chances was having three Konami characters already. Richter Belmont likely took Bomberman's place because he was easier to make in a short span of time as a basic clone/semi-clone of Simon.

I believe what is hurting Rayman is Nintendo's dislike for non-Japanese made IP. Same is probably true of Crash.

I think a lot of this has to do with generations as well. People in their mid-20s and older are probably not big fans of Joker while the younger generations are probably defending him. You can see that I am a Vet on these boards and I noticed that a lot of the older members agree with me while the younger members are more into the newer franchises.

IMO, I wish that I could have had Miles "Tails" Prowers over Joker. It kind of sucks that Street Fighter and Castlevania got two characters but the Sonic series still only has one. The Sonic series could arguable be the biggest of the third party franchises (I believe Final Fantasy may beat it but very few others beat the Sonic series in popularity/iconic status. It is the face of SEGA).

Don't get me wrong, the game is great and I am nit-picking on small stuff but a lot of people, not just me, felt that Joker was an odd pick for a third-party, especially the kick-off character for the character pact.

Regarding Banjo-Kazooie, I believe he has one of the most popular threads on this website. Nuff said. Smash fans want him and he is still popular. That is why he has 500 strings of posts in his support thread.
Wow, way to dismiss fans of a game/franchise solely by them being 'flavour of the month'. Not condescending at all.

Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that echoes were 'stealing slots'? If Sakurai wanted Bomberman playable, held have been playable alongside Richter. Richter was super easy to implement, already served as a basis for Simon's moves and is the most popular Belmont in the franchise

Can't argue about western characters as Sakurai has shown he prefers to talk to the developers directly. That being said Shovel Knight and Shantae still made it into the game meaning it's not as much of a deal breaker as we may think

The biggest Smash Brothers youtubers were backing Bayonetta and Joker before their confirmations and they're above their 20's. It's notnecessarily the generation that matters, it's about the type of gamers. 20+ gamers who exclusively play Nintendo are the only ones who have a problem with these characters as they're not the type to play anything that's above a T rating, people who expanded their horizons when it comes to gaming are significantly less demanding in terms of Nintendo relevance and were instead incredibly excited. Hell, there's even an example of gamers who barely care about Nintendo at all getting excited at Joker's reveal, Superbutterbuns. Her videos are mostly about franchises that aren't on Nintendo yet Joker's confirmation made her decide she wants to buy Smash.

Joker's inclusion didn't affect Sonic's representation in the game. Not to mention those franchises only got extra characters by means of echoes. Sure, Ken's surprisingly unique for an echo but he still shares a majority of his animations with Ryu.

Quite the contrary, gaming media EXPLODED at the announcement of Joker's inclusion, people who loved Smash were talking about it excitedly while people who played Persona 5 were convinced that they should probably invest in a Switch if they hadn't already done so

Support threads mean nothing. They were made long before Ultimate was even announced and in some cases are literally the same few people just posting multiple times. Hell, the entire thing about support threads is that they're all just circlejerks, everyone in all of them are fans and as seen with Banjo, your example, filled with people who refuse to believe that their character doesn't have a shot. Out of curiosity I checked it out and a lot of Banjo fans in that thread are Nintendo purists and got VERY upset when the Grinch rumours were proven fake and that a non-Nintendo character dared to even exist at the VGAs
 

BlueMonk

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Wasn't the push from this website and other Smash websites for King K. Rool and Ridley a driving factor for their admittance to the game. I am seeing a similar push for Banjo-Kazooie.
It's more so that those characters are popular everywhere, not just this community. K rool and Ridley were popular among casual and hardcore fans alike. I couldn't really tell you how banjo is perceived among more casual fans, but I doubt he's extremely popular compared to other characters like Doomguy or Steve.
 

Cutie Gwen

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It's more so that those characters are popular everywhere, not just this community. K rool and Ridley were popular among casual and hardcore fans alike. I couldn't really tell you how banjo is perceived among more casual fans, but I doubt he's extremely popular compared to other characters like Doomguy or Steve.
Banjo's biggest issue is that even among people who really want him in Smash don't even seem to know the franchise had more than 3 games and from what I've seen at least, there's quite a debate whether or not Banjo 1 or 2 is even good or not due to stuff like level design and mechanics
 
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Manonymous

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That Pikachu comment of yours is a **** up my guy. That man was/is practically the 2nd biggest gaming icon of all time
I'm sorry about that sentence, it wasn't clear. I meant that Final Fantasy was less known than Mario, Sonic, Bomberman at their time, but maybe was more well known during the Pokemon era. I'm sorry, it was clear in my head :( ...
 

Cutie Gwen

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I'm sorry about that sentence, it wasn't clear. I meant that Final Fantasy was less known than Mario, Sonic, Bomberman at their time, but maybe was more well known during the Pokemon era. I'm sorry, it was clear in my head :( ...
I don't have numbers for the franchise back them (which you should be providing as it's your argument) but again, Cloud's game made RPGs mainstream. It doesn't matter who was more popular back before FFVII, it's about what ended up having the most impact
 

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I might be wrong, but sales don't mean you're popular. Tetris sold really well, but how many people who barely touched it knew that Tetris was Russian ? Or the name of the man behind it ? For people who don't really play games, there are more chances that they know Bomberman and not Cloud (but they might have trouble to name Bomberman).
Quite frankly, if someone played Tetris and didn't realize it was Russian, they're either incredibly young or profoundly ignorant, assuming we're talking about the original Gameboy release. The copyright screen you see when it's booted up outright says "A game by Alexey Pajitnov" before going to the title screen, which has Russian folk music over an image of Saint Basil's Cathedral.
 

BlueMonk

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Banjo's biggest issue is that even among people who really want him in Smash don't even seem to know the franchise had more than 3 games and from what I've seen at least, there's quite a debate whether or not Banjo 1 or 2 is even good or not due to stuff like level design and mechanics
I think this is consistent with a lot of the "popular" wants, where a small but vocal community for a character will appear and then others who aren't actually familiar with the character or franchise will join in on the support and make the character seem more popular than they actually are.
 

Cutie Gwen

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I think this is consistent with a lot of the "popular" wants, where a small but vocal community for a character will appear and then others who aren't actually familiar with the character or franchise will join in on the support and make the character seem more popular than they actually are.
I think it's especially so for pretty much every support thread. It's why I've stopped going to them to say "Hey, I support this character!" a long time ago
 

Cutie Gwen

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Literally every well liked game ever made has people who think it's overrated. This isn't exclusive to the Banjo-Kazooie games at all.
While that's true, when fans of an already niche franchise argue about this, it tells me that said franchise's quality is inconsistent, especially with a game almost the entire fanbase hates and 2 people don't even care about
 
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While that's true, when fans of an already niche franchise argue about this, it tells me that said franchise's quality is inconsistent, especially with a game almost the entire fanbase hates and 2 people don't even care about
It's only "inconsistent" if you want to acknowledge Nuts and Bolts.
 

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I think the days of "3rd parties have to be a massive icon to get into Smash!" and "3rd parties must have a significant tie to Nintendo!" are long over (if they ever existed is even up for debate, but digress) due to one simple reason: the amount of characters that meet this strict criteria is becoming thinner and thinner.

Thinking back to the period between Brawl and Smash for where this expectation was most strongly held, most of the names that were commonly brought up are already playable (Sonic, Mega Man, Cloud, Simon, etc.) or appear in a non-playable role (Ray-Man, Bomberman, etc.). In my opinion, the only major character that is not in the game and really meets these requirements is Erdrick, a character who gets more and more likely everyday.

With this ever dwindling pool of potential third party fighters, Sakurai really only has two options on his hands:

1. Stop including 3rd parties in Smash entirely.
2. Loosen the criteria to allow more niche characters in.

Personally, I think most people would prefer the second option. Variety is the spice of life and that's especially true within the context of Smash. More characters is always preferable to less characters, double so if these characters bring something new and unique to the table. Joker is a great example of that. He's (debatably) the least recognizable third party thus far, and he has the weakest connection to Nintendo on the roster. However, he brings so many fun and unique ideas to the table that he more than justifies his place in the roster. Remember that Smash is a video game first and a Nintendo museum second, so "Would this be a fun idea?" should probably hold more bearing than "Does this represent Nintendo well?".

That being said, I do understand why some people are experiencing third party fatigue. However, that has more to do with the fact that much of Smash speculation has been themed entirely around third parties more-so than actual trends within the roster. I think it's more likely than not that we'll see at least one Nintendo character in the Fighter's Pass, which will hopefully make the discussion of Nintendo DLC characters less taboo and eliminate some of the monopoly that third parties hold within the DLC discussion.
 
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If you need to ignore a game to attain consistent quality, that's not a good sign for the quality of overall series.

Not that I'm saying Banjo-Kazooie is a bad franchise but you are shooting down your own argument.
You say this like Smash has characters with spotless track records. You need to ignore like 70% of Sonic's games at this point and Ice Climber's 1 and only game is considered "meh" at best.
 
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