Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

[TMNTSSB4]

Not gonna read the entirety of this thread as I rarely post on here anymore. But yes I agree Joker is terrible and may be one of the worst characters added to Smash IMO. Not to mention the character is borderline OP. I swear all you have to do is hold down B to win with him. His Arsen meter charges way to fast, his counter may be the most safe counter in the game, the range of both his recoveries is ridiculous and I just hate the character in general.

But whats done is done. None of this ridiculous **** would've happened if 3rd parties stayed out of Smash entirely. If the videogame companies wanted to come together and make "Videogame characters: The Fighting game" cool. But they have simply changed Smash Bros. from what it originally was. If K.Rool and Ridley hadnt been added to this game I wouldnt even have bought it and Im sure as hell not buying the rest of this lame probably JRPG anime ridden fighters pass. Not mad though Nintendo has plenty of other titles coming out this year that will probably make me forget Smash even came out.

oh...um...them is some interesting yet wrong statements

Ridley, IS an Nintendo character. Ridley FEELS like a Nintendo character. Ridley's aesthetic IS Nintendo. And he didn't exactly stomp Mario's skull. It wasn't shown. Ridley's trailer was more about quick strikes, very akin to Smash. Everything else you stated was on point.

You’re right...Ridley crushed Mario’s skull and snapped his neck (which can be seen and heard, like Mega Man being impaled, only in a more censored way)

 

[Just a random scrub]

Ridley, IS an Nintendo character. Ridley FEELS like a Nintendo character. Ridley's aesthetic IS Nintendo. And he didn't exactly stomp Mario's skull. It wasn't shown. Ridley's trailer was more about quick strikes, very akin to Smash. Everything else you stated was on point.

He didn't crush his skull, but the wince-worthy noise when he stabbed Mario makes it safe to assume plumba-boy's neck was snapped or something along those lines.

EDIT: 'd by TMNTSSB4

 

[The DanMan051]

None of this ridiculous **** would've happened if 3rd parties stayed out of Smash entirely. If the videogame companies wanted to come together and make "Videogame characters: The Fighting game" cool. But they have simply changed Smash Bros. from what it originally was.

Except 3rd parties were nearly in Melee and probably would've been in 64 if it hadn't been a lowmanned passion project.

Ridley, IS an Nintendo character. Ridley FEELS like a Nintendo character. Ridley's aesthetic IS Nintendo. And he didn't exactly stomp Mario's skull. It wasn't shown. Ridley's trailer was more about quick strikes, very akin to Smash. Everything else you stated was on point.

Dude, there is no "Nintendo aesthetic". Every single series has it's own aesthetic. Heck, Sakurai himself noted how different Ridley was as a character compared to everyone else.

And he didn't stomp on Mario's skull; he snapped his neck and then impaled Mega Man. Just because it was done with silhouettes doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Ridley is unique from anyone else in the game. He's monstrous looking, he's violent and sadistic... claiming that "oh he fits the Nintendo aesthetic" is pretty much as hard a confirmation as you can get that the whole complaint about aesthetics is selective bull****.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

And he didn't stomp on Mario's skull; he snapped his neck and then impaled Mega Man. Just because it was done with silhouettes doesn't mean it didn't happen

Other way around actually, but you still still right

 

[UserKev]

Except 3rd parties were nearly in Melee and probably would've been in 64 if it hadn't been a lowmanned passion project.


Dude, there is no "Nintendo aesthetic". Every single series has it's own aesthetic. Heck, Sakurai himself noted how different Ridley was as a character compared to everyone else.

And he didn't stomp on Mario's skull; he snapped his neck and then impaled Mega Man. Just because it was done with silhouettes doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Ridley is unique from anyone else in the game. He's monstrous looking, he's violent and sadistic... claiming that "oh he fits the Nintendo aesthetic" is pretty much as hard a confirmation as you can get that the whole complaint about aesthetics is selective bull****.

But you don't need to get so worked up about it. Damn, your argument be aggressive as hell.

 

[Garteam]

Not really, he also brought this up in that very interview:

This phrase echoes in something I'll bring up later.


Trophies=/=Spirits
They were a stand-in, but what happened with the Plant suggests these characters don't appear in the base game at all. Otherwise, why would Nintendo hold it back?


And Corrin's songs were used for an existing Fire Emblem stage instead of making a new one; same with the fact that there wasn't a new Pokémon stage. If that doesn't show Sakurai has no interest in making new content for veteran franchises, then I don't know what it means. Those decisions were all on him.


Here:

It's pretty much just like Reggie suggested, expanding the Switch's userbase. Now, whether these DLC characters succeed at bringing new people is a different topic (since it would require sale numbers), but the purpose is there.

I really don't think that Nintendo is using Smash to barter for third party support. Both Square Enix and Capcom had DLC in Smash for despite choosing not to support the Wii U, so we know that companies in Smash are not obligated to owe Nintendo favours in any way.

Likewise, this view of Smash as a corporate product largely goes against the way roster selection has been done in the past. Sakurai's greatest criteria has always been "would this character make a cool fighter?", fulfilling the desires of a corporate board seems to be the last thing on his mind. While he has collaborated with parent companies for what characters should get in (namely with Intelligent Systems for deciding that Ike should be in Brawl), this has been more for creative purposes than anything else. Hell, Sakurai has outright refused to follow certain corporate desires, stating he would've scrapped Pac-Man from Smash for if he had to use his Ghostly Adventures design instead of his classic look.

Additionally, I just can't see Smash DLC being a major selling point for the Switch as a console. Unless someone is a massive Persona fan, it's unlikely they're going to pick up Switch and Smash when they otherwise wouldn't because Joker is DLC. Purchasing a full system to play as one DLC character in a video game seems like a really expensive and roundabout process that only the most die-hard collectors would engage in. If Nintendo really wants catch fans of certain games, getting those titles on the Switch seems like a much more effective way of accomplishing that than putting a character from that series in Smash.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Sakurai has outright refused to follow certain corporate desires, stating he would've scrapped Pac-Man from Smash for if he had to use his Ghostly Adventures design instead of his classic look

tbf...would anyone have wanted Pac-Man in Smash if he had that ugly *** design?

 

[Opossum]

Not gonna read the entirety of this thread as I rarely post on here anymore. But yes I agree Joker is terrible and may be one of the worst characters added to Smash IMO. Not to mention the character is borderline OP. I swear all you have to do is hold down B to win with him. His Arsen meter charges way to fast, his counter may be the most safe counter in the game, the range of both his recoveries is ridiculous and I just hate the character in general.

But whats done is done. None of this ridiculous **** would've happened if 3rd parties stayed out of Smash entirely. If the videogame companies wanted to come together and make "Videogame characters: The Fighting game" cool. But they have simply changed Smash Bros. from what it originally was. If K.Rool and Ridley hadnt been added to this game I wouldnt even have bought it and Im sure as hell not buying the rest of this lame probably JRPG anime ridden fighters pass. Not mad though Nintendo has plenty of other titles coming out this year that will probably make me forget Smash even came out.

This might just be the most stereotypical "Nintendo Purist" post I've ever seen.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This is where I have to disagree with you: half the Kingdom Hearts series debuted on Nintendo handhelds.
Chain of Memories on the GBA, 358/2 Days and Re:Coded on the DS, and 3D on the 3DS.

To be fair Chain of Memories and DDD aren't Nintendo exclusives. That being said I outright forgot 358/2 and I thought Re:Coded was the mobile game

Also lmao yes Spirits deconfirm, trophies were always "Hey look at these characters who exist!" Spirits are supposed to represent the character in question so that they are there in spirit. We know Piranha Plant was also planned to be in the base game so the team that chose the Spirits would have known that and not make any Piranha Plant spirits. There's significantly more effort put into making Spirits feel like the characters are truly in the game with subtle stuff like the Shanoa spirit being Bayonetta, who's back is exposed (In Shanoa's game her back had a tattoo to absorb 'glyphs') with the stage and the hazard being based off of one of the most tricky Glyphs to get in Order of Ecclesia.

 

[Deleted member]

Cutie Gwen what is your problem?? It's like you just want to be argumentative in every single post for the sake of arguing. The N64 Banjo-Kazooie games are brilliant and so well-crafted that they hold up the series on their own, and are rightly lauded for perfecting the 3D platforming collectathon genre. End of story.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Cutie Gwen what is your problem?? It's like you just want to be argumentative in every single post for the sake of arguing. The N64 Banjo-Kazooie games are brilliant and so well-crafted that they hold up the series on their own, and are rightly lauded for perfecting the 3D platforming collectathon genre. End of story.

What's YOUR problem for throwing a fit to the point you felt the need to make a thread on an internet forum to go "IT ISN'T NINTENDO ENOUGH!"? You made this thread knowing full well people would disagree with you, you're also being argumentative with every post you make here so you do you.

I disagree heavily, they didn't perfect **** and ironically enough the Xbox versions are better last I checked. It's just so tiring seeing people who can't bare to expand their gaming horizons just sit in their incredibly small comfort spaces and cry foul when that tiny comfort spaces gets challenged because of a highly received character.

 

[osby]

Please don't turn discussions into personal attacks.

 

[Deleted member]

What's YOUR problem for throwing a fit to the point you felt the need to make a thread on an internet forum to go "IT ISN'T NINTENDO ENOUGH!"? You made this thread knowing full well people would disagree with you, you're also being argumentative with every post you make here so you do you.

I disagree heavily, they didn't perfect **** and ironically enough the Xbox versions are better last I checked. It's just so tiring seeing people who can't bare to expand their gaming horizons just sit in their incredibly small comfort spaces and cry foul when that tiny comfort spaces gets challenged because of a highly received character.

Lol. I ain't the one throwing a fit.

I did start a thread guessing that it would spark some debate but as we've seen people have opinions on both sides. I don't argue for the sake of arguing though, and if someone makes a good point then I'll concede that. I will say that many good points have been made in this thread, and I can certainly understand the perspective of those who are totally fine with Joker and all 3rd parties. I also find it funny that you berate me for starting a thread on which you seem so eager to be active. You're welcome I guess.

I will say that if you are not a fan of the N64 Banjo-Kazooie games after playing them then you are in a very, very small minority. Not that that's an argument but something to keep in mind. I did play them last on Xbox 360 and I did appreciate the improvements--but they're essentially the same games so it's kinda moot. I like to branch out when I can despite mostly gaming on Nintendo consoles, but that doesn't change my view on Joker being a good fit for Smash. Of all the 3rd party characters, he's easily got the weakest argument going for him. It is clear, though, that to some people there are no bad choices--anyone is on the table. I suppose that's fair. However, before getting to characters like Joker, I think we should have gotten all the characters that fans really wanted, and still want--the ones that have had large support threads for years, etc. That's just my view. You can have your own view. Also you misspelled "bear".

 

[osby]

However, before getting to characters like Joker, I think we should have gotten all the characters that fans really wanted, and still want--the ones that have had large support threads for years, etc. That's just my view. You can have your own view. Also you misspelled "bear".

The term "fans really wanted" is misleading, it claims all fans want the same thing, which simply isn't true.

Long term, large support threads only show said characters have passionate fans from older generations, it's not a real measurement of popularity in large circles.

 

[Calamitas]

I don't really want to read through the whole thread at this point, but I'll have to say. OP pretty much perfectly sums up my own feelings on Joker. Like, sure, if Persona 5 eventually came to the Switch I would most likely pick it up and actually get the character, but as it currently stands, a Warriors spin-off is not enough to sell me on anything.

And, uh. . . since I feel the need to say something profound (or at least something that sounds profound to me) on the matter:
I get that Joker Frompersonafive has been largely well-received by the fanbase, as the dozens of videos of YouTubers screaming at the reveal can attest. But not even the biggest crowd-pleaser can be universally popular, and people can have perfectly valid reasons for disliking Joker Frompersonafive. Just saying something like "well he's popular so your standpoint is invalid!" really doesn't help anything. If anything, it makes people dislike the character more.

 

[Deleted member]

The thread has deteriorated quite a bit isnt it? Last post here I guess and if I have said it before for real this time.

Honestly, the more you search for arguments against characters you dont like, you invite people to do the same for characters you may like. And the issue is that arguments for both sides end up being ridiculous and a lot of the time they just feel annoying.

One of the coolest aspects of Smash is that is a ****ing awesome crossover game where characters from different eras, consoles of origin, design, genres, sales and so on are represented. Given that there are this variety of characters in the game, it should be an incentive for people to go wild with their hopes rather than quell them.

At this point, Im more interested in how the characters are represented than where do they came from, how recent they are or if they topped a poll or something. Its great the variety we have and hope to see where its going.

Even with myself having played for more than 25 years of my life, I've been introduced to a lot of franchises thanks to Smash. Both first and third party. I never played anything related to Earthbound before Smash 64, FE before Melee, MGS or Kid Icarus before Brawl, I didnt played any Pikmin title until after 4 and most likely there will be a pick from the DLC that is from a game I haven't played before so I look forward to that.

At this point this rant would've been posted on the Unpopular Opinions as pretty much boils on preference.

(Plus I can guarantee if P5 was coming to Switch people would be complaining about Joker being a shill pick)

 

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Lol. I ain't the one throwing a fit.

I did start a thread guessing that it would spark some debate but as we've seen people have opinions on both sides. I don't argue for the sake of arguing though, and if someone makes a good point then I'll concede that. I will say that many good points have been made in this thread, and I can certainly understand the perspective of those who are totally fine with Joker and all 3rd parties. I also find it funny that you berate me for starting a thread on which you seem so eager to be active. You're welcome I guess.

Don't bother, you're wasting your time engaging with certain posters

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Dear lord is this thread a toxic chamber of negativity from all sides of it. This thread was probably a bad idea.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Lol. I ain't the one throwing a fit.

I did start a thread guessing that it would spark some debate but as we've seen people have opinions on both sides. I don't argue for the sake of arguing though, and if someone makes a good point then I'll concede that. I will say that many good points have been made in this thread, and I can certainly understand the perspective of those who are totally fine with Joker and all 3rd parties. I also find it funny that you berate me for starting a thread on which you seem so eager to be active. You're welcome I guess.

I will say that if you are not a fan of the N64 Banjo-Kazooie games after playing them then you are in a very, very small minority. Not that that's an argument but something to keep in mind. I did play them last on Xbox 360 and I did appreciate the improvements--but they're essentially the same games so it's kinda moot. I like to branch out when I can despite mostly gaming on Nintendo consoles, but that doesn't change my view on Joker being a good fit for Smash. Of all the 3rd party characters, he's easily got the weakest argument going for him. It is clear, though, that to some people there are no bad choices--anyone is on the table. I suppose that's fair. However, before getting to characters like Joker, I think we should have gotten all the characters that fans really wanted, and still want--the ones that have had large support threads for years, etc. That's just my view. You can have your own view. Also you misspelled "bear".

I'd argue that the way you worded the OP was similar to that of a tantrum but you know what, there's a chance I'm getting too heated as I believe you editted that to a more professional OP

What can I say? I have too much free time and thought I should post in mpre than the same 2 threads for once

Nah, Rusty Bucket Bay kinda needs the 360 improvements. My issues lie primarily in how dull the game is too me and the horribly designed board game as I feel that you NEED to know about Gruntilda's sister beforehand and the game doesn't make it clear that you need to remember what she says.

The thing is that you're basing the idea of what fans 'really' want with what you want, fans DID want Joker too after all, my irl group of friends didn't think he's happen but would have liked him and the only thing we hate is how often Morgana meows on Mementos

My bad, I'm Dutch

 

[GalacticPetey]

I think I stopped caring about things like relevance and closeness to Nintendo a long time ago. Maybe it's because years ago I said my ideal Smash game would be all veterans plus Ridley and K. Rool. Well I got what I wanted, and then some.

Maybe I'm just getting old but I don't remember character speculation and debates getting this heated, toxic, and just downright unpleasant. Honestly I've gotten to the point now where my thought process is "Would this character be cool to play as?" If so, then why the heck not I'll support them, whether they be first party or third. I think getting so hung up on "relevancy" and "reps" is just so limiting. Do I support characters like Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, etc? Yeah I do, heck my most wanted right now is Impa. But characters like Doomguy are just as exciting.

I swear, people will throw the biggest fits over third party characters, as if their inclusion will somehow worsens the game. The way I see it, more characters means more fun. they don't even have to be from games I've played. I've never touched Fire Emblem or Final Fantasy, yet pretty much all my mains come from those games. Limiting yourself to only playing and wanting characters from games you've played seems to be going against what Smash is all about, bringing together a wide and varied assortment of video game characters for a fun time.

So this is my long winded way of saying I think this whole debate is silly, and arguments about the "sanctity of Smash Bros" being ruined by third parties is completely laughable.

 

[Oddball]

If Nintendo wanted the game to be ONLY Nintendo they wouldn't have had light sabres in the very first game.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If Nintendo wanted the game to be ONLY Nintendo they wouldn't have had light sabres in the very first game.

Kinda making me wish we had Darth Vader in Smash

 

[dezeray112]

Sometimes, I don't limit my gaming platform of choice as I've already been playing a mix of Nintendo and Sony games ever since the Nintendo 64/Playstation console eras. As for Joker's inclusion, I'm actually happy and surprised he made it in and this is also coming from someone who is a fan of the series and played previous Persona games from Personas 3, 4, 5 and Q. Therefore it does not bother me that much.

Personally, I really don't mind having third party characters within any video gaming genres. I already came to the conclusion that Smash is not just a celebration of Nintendo franchises, but also a celebration of video games in general ever since Snake and Sonic's inclusion in Brawl.

 

[MyDude213]

True, but that doesn't change my point at all.

Cloud may have started it all, but I can still see why someone may not be able to pick him out of a line up of copycat JRPG heroes.

So let me get this straight you're telling me that a character other jrpgs copycat is hard to pick out in a group said copycat characters?... Well ya no **** they're copying him if it wasn't hard to tell them apart design wise we'd have problems because again they're COPYING him. Lol how is this an argument against anything btw? Is it that he's generic because he's an anime swordsman? If so then so is basically all of the FE representation in the series, and therefore shouldn't be in the game. Being generic isn't really a criteria that should deny a character from Smash. Especially when the character you're touting as generic is literally the face of his genre of game. The whole argument is just silly and doesn't make much sense or has any real relevance whatsoever. Imagine Mario getting scrapped from a Smash game cause he's too much of a generic platforming character? Lol that **** would make no sense right? Cause he's the face of platformers, so no **** he'd seem "generic" by any random anon looking into the genre from the outside in.

 

[The DanMan051]

To be fair Chain of Memories and DDD aren't Nintendo exclusives. That being said I outright forgot 358/2 and I thought Re:Coded was the mobile game

They both debuted on Nintendo hardware and only got ported years later. Re:Coded is a remake of an old smartphone game (Kingdom Hearst Coded, from back before when smartphones went mainstream), but it was the first release outside of Japan so I think it counts.

I don't really want to read through the whole thread at this point, but I'll have to say. OP pretty much perfectly sums up my own feelings on Joker. Like, sure, if Persona 5 eventually came to the Switch I would most likely pick it up and actually get the character, but as it currently stands, a Warriors spin-off is not enough to sell me on anything.

And, uh. . . since I feel the need to say something profound (or at least something that sounds profound to me) on the matter:
I get that Joker Frompersonafive has been largely well-received by the fanbase, as the dozens of videos of YouTubers screaming at the reveal can attest. But not even the biggest crowd-pleaser can be universally popular, and people can have perfectly valid reasons for disliking Joker Frompersonafive. Just saying something like "well he's popular so your standpoint is invalid!" really doesn't help anything. If anything, it makes people dislike the character more.

You can either recognize he doesn't appeal to you and move on, or you can act all pretentious and rant about how terrible of an inclusion he was because he doesn't personally appeal to you (while trying to dress that up with some sort of rationale).

Also, the "Frompersonafive" is just kinda obnoxious and smarmy.

 

[MyDude213]

But you don't need to get so worked up about it. Damn, your argument be aggressive as hell.

Literally what part of any of the things you quoted him saying is "aggressive" exactly? They countered your arguments, countering someone's argument does not in anyway mean they're being "aggressive". That's literally not how any of that works.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think I stopped caring about things like relevance and closeness to Nintendo a long time ago. Maybe it's because years ago I said my ideal Smash game would be all veterans plus Ridley and K. Rool. Well I got what I wanted, and then some.

Maybe I'm just getting old but I don't remember character speculation and debates getting this heated, toxic, and just downright unpleasant. Honestly I've gotten to the point now where my thought process is "Would this character be cool to play as?" If so, then why the heck not I'll support them, whether they be first party or third. I think getting so hung up on "relevancy" and "reps" is just so limiting. Do I support characters like Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, etc? Yeah I do, heck my most wanted right now is Impa. But characters like Doomguy are just as exciting.

I swear, people will throw the biggest fits over third party characters, as if their inclusion will somehow worsens the game. The way I see it, more characters means more fun. they don't even have to be from games I've played. I've never touched Fire Emblem or Final Fantasy, yet pretty much all my mains come from those games. Limiting yourself to only playing and wanting characters from games you've played seems to be going against what Smash is all about, bringing together a wide and varied assortment of video game characters for a fun time.

So this is my long winded way of saying I think this whole debate is silly, and arguments about the "sanctity of Smash Bros" being ruined by third parties is completely laughable.

To be fair, being a crossover with so many franchises brings the toxicity of all those fanbases, especially with Ultimate being the best selling fighting game of all time

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Please don't turn discussions into personal attacks.

You say that like it’ll actually work

 

[UserKev]

Literally what part of any of the things you quoted him saying is "aggressive" exactly? They countered your arguments, countering someone's argument does not in anyway mean they're being "aggressive". That's literally not how any of that works.

Nah. Mewtwo and Ganondorf were accurately violet in Melee, which was a pretty violently paced game in its own. Ganondorf was the Shao Kahn of Smash. Also, what if I told you, third party characters were plain overrated? Something to challenge your brain, bud.

If Smash eventually needed third party, end the series on a good note rather then put it on third party life support and milk it to oblivion. Yes, its possible.

All about Nintendo.

 

[YoshiandToad]

So let me get this straight you're telling me that a character other jrpgs copycat is hard to pick out in a group said copycat characters?... Well ya no **** they're copying him if it wasn't hard to tell them apart design wise we'd have problems because again they're COPYING him. Lol how is this an argument against anything btw? Is it that he's generic because he's an anime swordsman? If so then so is basically all of the FE representation in the series, and therefore shouldn't be in the game. Being generic isn't really a criteria that should deny a character from Smash. Especially when the character you're touting as generic is literally the face of his genre of game. The whole argument is just silly and doesn't make much sense or has any real relevance whatsoever. Imagine Mario getting scrapped from a Smash game cause he's too much of a generic platforming character? Lol that **** would make no sense right? Cause he's the face of platformers, so no **** he'd seem "generic" by any random anon looking into the genre from the outside in.

Okay easy there pally. Breathe.

I support Captain Toad and Bandana Waddle Dee two characters lambasted for being generic individuals.

Therefore I really don't care if someone is generic if I think they're a big name, but the topic was 'If Cloud's a bigger name than Bomberman how could a casual recognise Bomberman but not Cloud.'

I'm simply saying yes Cloud could theoretically get confused for the other dozens of spiky haired JRPG protagonists he inspired by casuals compared to Bomberman who has a unique design, which was the original topic I was responding to. Not saying Cloud isn't iconic.

Closest thing I can think of that looks like Bomberman is Mr. Driller. Maybe Digdug. Maybe.

Although, no. Mario's mere design hasn't become a stock art style choice so I don't believe anyone will look at Mario and get confused between him and every other platformer character.

 

[Calamitas]

You can either recognize he doesn't appeal to you and move on, or you can act all pretentious and rant about how terrible of an inclusion he was because he doesn't personally appeal to you (while trying to dress that up with some sort of rationale).

Also, the "Frompersonafive" is just kinda obnoxious and smarmy.

Oh, I will move on eventually. But currently, you can't go anywhere within the Smash community without people still singing the praises of the character everywhere, or quoting this "you'll never see it coming line", which is why I'm still rather annoyed by it all.

And that other part really sounds like more of a you problem to me.

 

[Deleted member]

I think some people misunderstand me. The main point I made in my original post is not actually that 3rd parties are bad. But since Smash Bros. is currently a Nintendo exclusive title, I think it would be prudent to consider the audience. And it seemed like a slap in the face to advertise Joker for months in Smash Bros., building up hype around this character, to then announce that a Persona 5 remake is coming to......PlayStation 4. Kinda like we all got used and deceived.

All of the arguments about everything else 3rd party are fine, but this is the thing that ticked me off. Personally, I prefer that the characters in Smash have some sort of reason to be there, usually some sort of established history with Nintendo--which will also help their chances of returning in future installments instead of potentially being flavor of the week picks (and nobody likes when their favorite character gets cut). I know Sakurai is a freelancer who really loved Persona 5, but is that reason enough to put a character in Nintendo's biggest crossover? To some the answer is yes. For me, I was looking for more reasons to care about Joker than what we ended up getting.

 

[Opossum]

I think some people misunderstand me. The main point I made in my original post is not actually that 3rd parties are bad. But since Smash Bros. is currently a Nintendo exclusive title, I think it would be prudent to consider the audience. And it seemed like a slap in the face to advertise Joker for months in Smash Bros., building up hype around this character, to then announce that a Persona 5 remake is coming to......PlayStation 4. Kinda like we all got used and deceived.

All of the arguments about everything else 3rd party are fine, but this is the thing that ticked me off. Personally, I prefer that the characters in Smash have some sort of reason to be there, usually some sort of established history with Nintendo--which will also help their chances of returning in future installments instead of potentially being flavor of the week picks (and nobody likes when their favorite character gets cut). I know Sakurai is a freelancer who really loved Persona 5, but is that reason enough to put a character in Nintendo's biggest crossover? To some the answer is yes. For me, I was looking for more reasons to care about Joker than what we ended up getting.

I mean, Scramble and Q2 exist. That's equivalent to what Cloud had before he joined, so I don't really see the issue.

 

[PhantomShab]

Maybe I'm just getting old but I don't remember character speculation and debates getting this heated, toxic, and just downright unpleasant.

Ultimate is where some long running issues have finally reached a boiling point for a lot of people.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, Scramble and Q2 exist. That's equivalent to what Cloud had before he joined, so I don't really see the issue.

The real issue is how one expects to like every 70+ character equally.

 

[Garteam]

Ultimate is where some long running issues have finally reached a boiling point for a lot of people.

Could you give some examples? The only really large debate I've seen regarding Ultimate is the issue of 3rd party fatigue, and that's an incredibly new issue.

Heck, people are even starting to get over Fire Emblem fatigue, which was the big grip of Smash for's roster.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Could you give some examples? The only really large debate I've seen regarding Ultimate is the issue of 3rd party fatigue, and that's an incredibly new issue.

Heck, people are even starting to get over Fire Emblem fatigue, which was the big grip of Smash for's roster.

People expect this to be a do or die scenario for their favourites so they're getting rather desperate and more easily agitated.

Also it's Smash 4. Can we let the 'Smash For' meme die already?

 

[PhantomShab]

Could you give some examples? The only really large debate I've seen regarding Ultimate is the issue of 3rd party fatigue, and that's an incredibly new issue.

Assist trophies. The November direct made a lot of fanbases label them as a mistake. Some fanbases (especially Shadow's and Skull Kid's) were genuinely led on to think they were in. Being pushed aside in favor of a shillmon who will be forgotten in gen 8 and a generic mook didn't exactly help the situation either. People realize by now that assist trophies are a death sentence and being told the DLC will consist of 3rd parties (except the inevitable FE character lol) basically cements the fact that certain fanbases of Nintendo's own characters aren't going to be very happy.

Heck, people are even starting to get over Fire Emblem fatigue, which was the big grip of Smash for's roster.

That will change when the only Nintendo character in the fighter's pass is Edgelord or whatever her name is from the new Fire Emblem.

 

[Opossum]

Assist trophies. The November direct made a lot of fanbases label them as a mistake. Some fanbases (especially Shadow's and Skull Kid's) were genuinely led on to think they were in. Being pushed aside in favor of a shillmon who will be forgotten in gen 8 and a generic mook didn't exactly help the situation either. People realize by now that assist trophies are a death sentence and being told the DLC will consist of 3rd parties (except the inevitable FE character lol) basically cements the fact that certain fanbases of Nintendo's own characters aren't going to be very happy.


That will change when the only Nintendo character in the fighter's pass is Edgelord or whatever her name is from the new Fire Emblem.

I mean, I'd happily take Edelgard over a good amount of the characters commonly thrown around as DLC suggestions.

 

[PsySmasher]

Hoo boy this thread... guess I'll give my opinion on the subject then:

Look, I vastly prefer 1st party characters over 3rd party ones, but I understand why Nintendo is going down this route.

They're trying to expand their playerbase. Smash has become something more than just a crossover of Nintendo characters, it's now a crossover of (Japanese) gaming history, both new and old.

They're not trying to neglect the general Nintendo audience. Otherwise we wouldn't have gotten characters like Ridley or K. Rool.

So while I personally prefer characters like Bandana Waddle Dee or another FE character to get in, I realize that what Nintendo is doing is pretty smart.

3rd party characters, in general, bring in more people than 1st party ones. So it makes sense to have the pass primarily focus on 3rd parties.

It's fine to have different preferences, but at this point, Smash no longer represents just Nintendo.

3rd party characters (including ones who have little connection to Nintendo), deserve their spots on the Smash roster.