Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

[PhantomShab]

I mean, I'd happily take Edelgard over a good amount of the characters commonly thrown around as DLC suggestions.

I wouldn't.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think people really need to learn to be more pessimistic about their characters. Like, Dante's my second most wanted and the stars seem to be aligning for him but I don't think he's actually going to happen. The biggest fanbase meltdowns always had one thing in common: People were overconfident about the characters they wanted and were proven wrong, leading lots of them to behave like literal children when they are given a toy they didn't want. The toy might still be fun but it's not the specific toy the child wanted and now they're throwing a tantrum

 

[Deleted member]

Not gonna read the entirety of this thread as I rarely post on here anymore. But yes I agree Joker is terrible and may be one of the worst characters added to Smash IMO. Not to mention the character is borderline OP. I swear all you have to do is hold down B to win with him. His Arsen meter charges way to fast, his counter may be the most safe counter in the game, the range of both his recoveries is ridiculous and I just hate the character in general.

But whats done is done. None of this ridiculous **** would've happened if 3rd parties stayed out of Smash entirely. If the videogame companies wanted to come together and make "Videogame characters: The Fighting game" cool. But they have simply changed Smash Bros. from what it originally was. If K.Rool and Ridley hadnt been added to this game I wouldnt even have bought it and Im sure as hell not buying the rest of this lame probably JRPG anime ridden fighters pass. Not mad though Nintendo has plenty of other titles coming out this year that will probably make me forget Smash even came out.

Y'all are upset the Japanese company added characters from an artstyle that is popular in Japan? Everyone in this game apart from two is a Japanese-made character from games that are very much made with Japanese game design philosophy, so getting upset at "anime" characters is pretty much getting upset at everyone on the roster.

Also, Smash was always a video game character crossover. The fact we got 3rd parties in Brawl under the same director proves the "Nintendo only" rule was never a thing in the first place. Snake would have been in Melee if Kojima asked early enough; nothing about the character selection process has changed, other than this fan base constantly changing the "rules" for it and pretending they know the inner workings of a major company like they're an expert.

 

[The DanMan051]

Nah. Mewtwo and Ganondorf were accurately violet in Melee, which was a pretty violently paced game in its own. Ganondorf was the Shao Kahn of Smash. Also, what if I told you, third party characters were plain overrated? Something to challenge your brain, bud.

If Smash eventually needed third party, end the series on a good note rather then put it on third party life support and milk it to oblivion. Yes, its possible.

All about Nintendo.

Mewtwo and Ganondorf are shown as calculating and intelligent beings in their home series, while Ridley in the games themselves may as well be a mindless killing machine. With his backstory making him even worse; both Mewtwo and Ganondorf have some sort of tragic motivator and clear goals. Ridley? He climbed his way up the Space Pirate ladder because he likes power and killing things.

Ridley is a monster in multiple meanings of the word; something that his trailer and design in Smash both emphasize (the other animal fighters in Smash are at least slightly cartoony, while Ridley's in there looking feral with detailed skin texturing and stuff).

And the series is not on "life support"; it's using 3rd parties to reach out to wider audiences and attain greater profits; a win-win. And the terms "overrated/underrated" themselves are loaded and pretentious-- they're going "X thing shouldn't be as popular as it is/should be more popular than it is" and, by nature, go against public opinion and the current reality of things. They're 100% subjective and have no place in anything resembling an actual debate.

The idea you suggested would be "life support", if anything.

It's possible to say "I personally don't like this" without trying to give some sort of in-depth rationale and argument that only digs yourself deeper.
Seriously; that's my big takeaway from this thread.
Some people just need to learn when to move on if it bothers them that much. Nobody's forcing you to buy the DLC.

Or is it that you get angry seeing other people enjoying/being excited for things that you don't and know that you're in the minority?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Mewtwo and Ganondorf are shown as calculating and intelligent beings in their home series, while Ridley in the games themselves may as well be a mindless killing machine. With his backstory making him even worse; both Mewtwo and Ganondorf have some sort of tragic motivator and clear goals. Ridley? He climbed his way up the Space Pirate ladder because he likes power and killing things.

Ridley is a monster in multiple meanings of the word; something that his trailer and design in Smash both emphasize (the other animal fighters in Smash are at least slightly cartoony, while Ridley's in there looking feral with detailed skin texturing and stuff).

And the series is not on "life support"; it's using 3rd parties to reach out to wider audiences and attain greater profits; a win-win. And the terms "overrated/underrated" themselves are loaded and pretentious-- they're going "X thing shouldn't be as popular as it is/should be more popular than it is" and, by nature, go against public opinion and the current reality of things. They're 100% subjective and have no place in anything resembling an actual debate.

The idea you suggested would be "life support", if anything.

It's possible to say "I personally don't like this" without trying to give some sort of in-depth rationale and argument that only digs yourself deeper.
Seriously; that's my big takeaway from this thread.
Some people just need to learn when to move on if it bothers them that much. Nobody's forcing you to buy the DLC.

Or is it that you get angry seeing other people enjoy things that you don't and know that you're in the minority?

That reminds me, someone made a 38 page essay on why Erdrick will not be in Smash. Some people REALLY can't admit they dislike certain characters

inb4 people try using this against me

 

[Deleted member]

Another thing too, for those upset at Joker because he's "OP"...

People, he has a tether recovery, a gimmick he can't directly control and can be timed out, and a counter that has horrible endlag and is super situational. He's a solid character in spite of his weaknesses for sure, but claiming he's too strong as a way to hate him is a pretty weak excuse.

Y'all aren't mad he's strong, you're mad he isn't what you wanted.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Another thing too, for those upset at Joker because he's "OP"...

People, he has a tether recovery, a gimmick he can't directly control and can be timed out, and a counter that has horrible endlag and is super situational. He's a solid character in spite of his weaknesses for sure, but claiming he's too strong as a way to hate him is a pretty weak excuse.

Y'all aren't mad he's strong, you're mad he isn't what you wanted.

Not to mention it's barely been a month.
Also the guy complaining about Joker being OP is clearly a huge K.Rool fan which is ****ing hilarious as lots of low level players cried about K.Rool in a similar fashion

 

[The DanMan051]

Not to mention it's barely been a month.
Also the guy complaining about Joker being OP is clearly a huge K.Rool fan which is ****ing hilarious as lots of low level players cried about K.Rool in a similar fashion

Reminds me of the guy who started the whole train of "Joker is a ripoff as a DLC character because he shares some moves with other fighters" being a Roy fan.

 

[Sean²]

That reminds me, someone made a 38 page essay on why Erdrick will not be in Smash. Some people REALLY can't admit they dislike certain characters

inb4 people try using this against me

I've never written anything even close to 38 pages, about any subject, in my entire life. That's insane, especially for something so trivial. Who is this man and why wasn't he available for hire when I was in college?

 

[The DanMan051]

I've never written anything even close to 38 pages, about any subject, in my entire life. That's insane, especially for something so trivial. Who is this man and why wasn't he available for hire when I was in college?

Are we sure he's a man and not just an advanced chatbot?

 

[Deleted member]

That reminds me, someone made a 38 page essay on why Erdrick will not be in Smash. Some people REALLY can't admit they dislike certain characters

inb4 people try using this against me

Never underestimate the power of an angry internet person.

Y'all know serious biz is about to go down when they write up an entire thesis paper on "Why my Taste is Objectively Better than Yours".

 

[Schnee117]

Assist trophies. The November direct made a lot of fanbases label them as a mistake.

That's on the fanbases for believing in leaks just because it had their most wanted characters and disregarding the input from actual insiders and graphic designers.

Some fanbases (especially Shadow's and Skull Kid's) were genuinely led on to think they were in.

No they weren't. People let their expectations get out of check and thought that two random chairs of all things meant SK was in. This is, again, on them for making asinine stretches to see that their character was actually confirmed. They learned nothing from history (Ridley in Smash 4) and thus they repeated it.

Much like how you've learned nothing from everyone else and insist on continuing to show how ignorant you are.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Assist trophies. The November direct made a lot of fanbases label them as a mistake. Some fanbases (especially Shadow's and Skull Kid's) were genuinely led on to think they were in. Being pushed aside in favor of a shillmon who will be forgotten in gen 8 and a generic mook didn't exactly help the situation either. People realize by now that assist trophies are a death sentence and being told the DLC will consist of 3rd parties (except the inevitable FE character lol) basically cements the fact that certain fanbases of Nintendo's own characters aren't going to be very happy.


That will change when the only Nintendo character in the fighter's pass is Edgelord or whatever her name is from the new Fire Emblem.

Everyone has generally always known that Assist Trophies were the end of the line for the specific game in question. Not a new development by any stretch of the imagination.

And similarly, anyone who didn’t make it into the base game and only showed up as an Assist Trophy at the end wasn’t a character that they teased to lead you on. Characters like Shadow and Skull Kid we’re never teased at all. The fan base as a collective just became temporarily convinced that they would be in the game and built narratives that fans believed about the game. That’s entirely on the fans and is not something that can be blamed on Sakurai, Nintendo, or Smash. Fans need to take more ownership of how they hyped during Ultimate’s pre-release.

And you’re talking definitively about a Fire Emblem character coming that you know nothing about being in the game. It’s too early to make that call or complain about something that’s not actually super likely and mostly comes from pessimistic fans trying to prop up their “woe are the fan picks” narrative. Similarly, it’s kind of difficult to tell a Pokemon’s Legacy before they’ve had time to you know, build a legacy.

And Piranha Plant is just a character. As niche as ROB, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and watch, and others before it. Doesn’t make it a bad character choice, just one that doesn’t appeal to you. Fan requests are not, and should not be everything to Smash, and we got several during base Smash Ultimate already. So, there’s just not much of a leg to stand on beyond, “well, I wanted every character to be a highly requested* character.”


*Requested in this instance referring only to those that were popular in the online voluntary fan polls on specific sites. Characters popular in other circles or not the absolute top of popularity polls need not apply

 

[Guynamednelson]

(except the inevitable FE character lol)

People are forgetting that Sakurai understands your concerns about too much FE, only adding Corrin because he was convinced the dragon transformations could make them unique.

Just like how people forget that Nintendo won't lose 90 trillion dollars just because they chose to promote an AT over adding Steve.

 

[PhantomShab]

That's on the fanbases for believing in leaks just because it had their most wanted characters and disregarding the input from actual insiders and graphic designers.

So don't believe in leaks, but also believe in leaks? Ok gotcha.

No they weren't. People let their expectations get out of check and thought that two random chairs of all things meant SK was in. This is, again, on them for making asinine stretches to see that their character was actually confirmed. They learned nothing from history (Ridley in Smash 4) and thus they repeated it.

​

Much like how you've learned nothing from everyone else and insist on continuing to show how ignorant you are.

You would have to be hilariously out of touch (which Sakurai is on a lot of things to be fair) to have Skull Kid's and Shadow's assist trophies seemingly replaced by something else and then have their assist trophies both be no-shows (until the very last minute that is), while at the same time having newcomers who were once assist trophies like Dark Samus and Isabelle being upgraded to playable, and NOT think people were getting suspicious and hopeful. You would have to be astronomically out of touch.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

People are forgetting that Sakurai understands your concerns about too much FE, only adding Corrin because he was convinced the dragon transformations could make them unique.

Just like how people forget that Nintendo won't lose 90 trillion dollars just because they chose to promote an AT over adding Steve.

You've forgotten that Smash fans ****ing hate Fire Emblem. It's bull****, they never played it and have no right to criticize it unlike Fire Emblem fans, the group who absolutely loathes Fire Emblem the most

 

[osby]

You would have to be hilariously out of touch (which Sakurai is on a lot of things to be fair) to have Skull Kid's and Shadow's assist trophies seemingly replaced by something else and then have their assist trophies both be no-shows (until the very last minute that is), while at the same time having newcomers who were once assist trophies like Dark Samus and Isabelle being upgraded to playable, and NOT think people were getting suspicious and hopeful. You would have to be astronomically out of touch.

Or you have to be aware of Isaac Assist Trophy getting cut in Smash 4.

 

[PhantomShab]

Or you have to be aware of Isaac Assist Trophy getting cut in Smash 4.

Yes. And?

 

[osby]

Yes. And?

Just because you didn't see a character yet doesn't mean they are playable. If some fans insist on not accepting this, they are the ones who are out of touch with reality.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You've forgotten that Smash fans ****ing hate Fire Emblem. It's bull****, they never played it and have no right to criticize it unlike Fire Emblem fans, the group who absolutely loathes Fire Emblem the most

Oh, I know that Smash fans hate FE. The whole "EDELGARD GUNNA BE DLC" thing is just paranoia.

 

[PhantomShab]

Just because you didn't see a character yet doesn't mean they are playable. If some fans insist on not accepting this, they are the ones who are out of touch with reality.

Well they sure as hell have a better shot at being added later than if they were already in the NEVER EVER snowglobe.

 

[Schnee117]

So don't believe in leaks, but also believe in leaks? Ok gotcha.
.

You're being so obtuse here you're going reflex.

You would have to be hilariously out of touch (which Sakurai is on a lot of things to be fair) to have Skull Kid's and Shadow's assist trophies seemingly replaced by something else and then have their assist trophies both be no-shows (until the very last minute that is), while at the same time having newcomers who were once assist trophies like Dark Samus and Isabelle being upgraded to playable, and NOT think people were getting suspicious and hopeful. You would have to be astronomically out of touch.

Or just have some common sense.
They could have been cut entirely.
They could just be saved for later because they want to spread the info out and deemed some to be more exciting to show closer to launch.
They could actually have been playable.

If you immediately jumped on the "They're definitely playable" train despite the other possibilities then it's your own fault.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well they sure as hell have a better shot at being added later than if they were already in the NEVER EVER snowglobe.

You literally JUST acknowledged that not one but two characters from baby jail became playable this time around though lmaooooo

 

[Gamer Cube]

My opinion is that the whole SSB universe is a place where you can see your favorite character from your favorite game (Mike Tyson's Punchout!!! all the way!) punch another character from another awesome game in the face and see who wins. I don't see it as Nintendo's way of advertising their own characters, so I don't see why you shouldn't see classic characters from games like Street Fighter, Mega Man, and PAC-MAN (just spelling it right, not yelling.) excluded from this game. I don't see why you shouldn't bring other franchises in this game. There were so many people out there hoping that someone from their favorite game would come out on this cool fighting game. That is my opinion on the matter.

 

[osby]

Well they sure as hell have a better shot at being added later than if they were already in the NEVER EVER snowglobe.

I'm not interested in chances if they aren't going to be reality.

If we get neither Dixie Kong or Skull Kid as DLC, who cares about Skull Kid's chances being smaller?

 

[PhantomShab]

You're being so obtuse here you're going reflex.

"Don't believe the leaks. But also believe the "insiders" and their leaks."

What did I misread here?

Or just have some common sense.
They could have been cut entirely.
They could just be saved for later because they want to spread the info out and deemed some to be more exciting to show closer to launch.
They could actually have been playable.

Or Sakurai is just out of touch. It did after all take a freaking ballot to get the main villain of one of Nintendo's own franchises playable lol.

If you immediately jumped on the "They're definitely playable" train despite the other possibilities then it's your own fault.

The fact people have to have such dirt low expectations for the roster reflects pretty poorly on the ones in charge of it but I guess.

You literally JUST acknowledged that not one but two characters from baby jail became playable this time around though lmaooooo

I'm talking about in the same game you ****ing KNOW this.

 

[osby]

The fact people have to have such dirt low expectations for the roster reflects pretty poorly on the ones in charge of it but I guess.

"Realistic" and "dirt low" are two different things. Just because the roster didn't specifically cater to your baseless hopes doesn't mean it's bad.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Don't believe the leaks. But also believe the "insiders" and their leaks."

What did I misread here?


Or Sakurai is just out of touch. It did after all take a freaking ballot to get the main villain of one of Nintendo's own franchises playable lol.


The fact people have to have such dirt low expectations for the roster reflects pretty poorly on the ones in charge of it but I guess.


I'm talking about in the same game you ****ing KNOW this.

I actually can't tell because your wording isn't the best. Especially when you're suggesting that you missing the point constantly isn't deliberate. Is English your furst language? No offence, just curious, my English isn't perfect either

lmao I made a typo with 'first' to 'furst' that's ****ing hilarious I'm keeping that

 

[YoshiandToad]

People expect this to be a do or die scenario for their favourites so they're getting rather desperate and more easily agitated.

Also it's Smash 4. Can we let the 'Smash For' meme die already?

It's not really a meme if it's what the game is officially titled by Nintendo though. Can't really blame anyone but Nintendo for this one.

 

[PhantomShab]

No offence, just curious, my English isn't perfect either

Well that explains why you can't read it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It's not really a meme if it's what the game is officially titled by Nintendo though. Can't really blame anyone but Nintendo for this one.

It's a meme made by people who want to pretend they're smarter than others. It's like if I go "Ah yes I quite enjoy consuming the media of Leave Luck To Heaven's Citra, Torte City mmmmmmmmmmm". It's needlessly obtuse and is either done to be overly verbose in a comedic fashion or because the person saying it is incredibly insecure about their intelligence

Well that explains why you can't read it.

I'm taking that as a "I, PhantomShab, am not English" then

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Oh, I know that Smash fans hate FE. The whole "EDELGARD GUNNA BE DLC" thing is just paranoia.

then there’s me...one of the few who want another FE character

 

[Cutie Gwen]

then there’s me...one of the few who want another FE character

His point is that people are going "Ugh probably getting another Fire Emblem character because Nintendo personally wants to ruin my day"

 

[TMNTSSB4]

His point is that people are going "Ugh probably getting another Fire Emblem character because Nintendo personally wants to ruin my day"

I got the point, but it’s still a mighty lonely boat to be riding

 

[YoshiandToad]

Okay, now for something different.

The whole 'expand your gaming horizons and stop being a fanboy' mindset irritates me a little, because consoles...are KINDA expensive.

The PS4's Spiderman game looks jaw droppingly awesome and I'd adore playing it, but the console deal is £250, which is a lot of moolah to drop to play a singular game. I love One Piece too but I can't justify throwing £250+ on a console for Spiderman and World Seeker(also apparently World Seeker isn't massively good but that's neither here or there).

So if Joker is to try and expand the Nintendo fanbase...as I see many claim he is...
...if games like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, Super Mario Odssey, Breath of the Wild, Splatoon and Smash Bros. prior to Joker's involvement weren't enough to convince Sony fans to consider buying a Switch, why on earth would anyone drop £250-£320 JUST to play as Joker in a single beat em up game on a console they didn't think would appeal to them to begin with?

Yeah, we got Persona 5 Scramble coming to Switch too which could possibly also tempt those fans over but as it's also on PS4, why would the savvy Persona fan bother buying an expensive additional console to get the same experience? Doesn't make any sense.

And the Nintendo fan being told to 'get a PS4' if they enjoy Joker's inclusion is a hell of a lot to expect that fan to spend. Yeah they'll probably get Scramble(I don't give a singular damn about Joker but I'll probably get Scramble just because I enjoy Musou games) on Switch but it's still a not insignificant amount to pay up.

You could put Yoshi and Toad in the next Halo, Banjo-Kazooie or Conker game as playable characters, but I'm still not going to drop £250 to play as them. That'd be insane.

On the flip side, I have yet to get into say...Xenoblade, but if Rex and Pyra were really fun in Smash I'd only have to drop £40 roughly to enjoy their game.

As a consumer the only one this satisfies is those who are fortunate enough(or have enough disposable income) to have both consoles, enjoy Smash Bros. and have happened to play and enjoy the Persona series. At least until Persona 5 does manage to get a Switch release.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The whole 'expand your gaming horizons and stop being a fanboy' mindset irritates me a little, because consoles...are KINDA expensive.

It irritates me because it's being pushed by people who don't want to expand their own horizons, and believe that the public shares their narrow-mindedness 100%.

 

[osby]

Okay, now for something different.

The whole 'expand your gaming horizons and stop being a fanboy' mindset irritates me a little, because consoles...are KINDA expensive.

The PS4's Spiderman game looks jaw droppingly awesome and I'd adore playing it, but the console deal is £250, which is a lot of moolah to drop to play a singular game. I love One Piece too but I can't justify throwing £250+ on a console for Spiderman and World Seeker(also apparently World Seeker isn't massively good but that's neither here or there).

So if Joker is to try and expand the Nintendo fanbase...as I see many claim he is...
...if games like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, Super Mario Odssey, Breath of the Wild, Splatoon and Smash Bros. prior to Joker's involvement weren't enough to convince Sony fans to consider buying a Switch, why on earth would anyone drop £250-£320 to play as Joker in a single beat em up game on a console they didn't think would appeal to them to begin with?

Yeah, we got Persona 5 Scramble coming to Switch too which could possibly also tempt those fans over but as it's also on PS4, why would the savvy Persona fan bother buying an expensive additional console to get the same experience? Doesn't make any sense.

And the Nintendo fan being told to 'get a PS4' if they enjoy Joker's inclusion is a hell of a lot to expect that fan to spend. Yeah they'll probably get Scramble(I don't give a singular damn about Joker but I'll probably get Scramble just because I enjoy Musou games) on Switch but it's still a not insignificant amount to pay up.

You could put Yoshi and Toad in the next Halo, Banjo-Kazooie or Conker game as playable characters, but I'm still not going to drop £250 to play as them. That'd be insane.

On the flip side, I have yet to get into say...Xenoblade, but if Rex and Pyra were really fun in Smash I'd only have to drop £40 roughly to enjoy their game.

As a consumer the only one this satisfies is those who are fortunate enough(or have enough disposable income) to have both consoles, enjoy Smash Bros. and have happened to play and enjoy the Persona series. At least until Persona 5 does manage to get a Switch release.

I mean, if you want to play every single DLC newcomer's game on Switch, that's probably going to cost you a lot, too.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I mean, if you want to play every single DLC newcomer's game on Switch, that's probably going to cost you a lot, too.

Personally, I don't. But even if I did it'd still cost less than buying an additional console plus those games.

 

[MyDude213]

Therefore I really don't care if someone is generic if I think they're a big name, but the topic was 'If Cloud's a bigger name than Bomberman how could a casual recognise Bomberman but not Cloud.'

Okay but why exactly is Cloud the only exception to that "rule"? You are aware how hypocritical it is to say you "support generic characters" only to ostracize another for being "generic" right? That's my point your logic is non existant.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

As a consumer the only one this satisfies is those who are fortunate enough(or have enough disposable income) to have both consoles, enjoy Smash Bros. and have happened to play and enjoy the Persona series. At least until Persona 5 does manage to get a Switch release.

Which is a fairly large demographic tbh, plenty of Switch owners do own at least one of the other two major systems, especially since they're relatively cheap compared to their launch prices and the Switch was released in the middle of their life cycles.

Plenty of bundles out there that are a steal compared to what consoles usually cost.