Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

[Captain Shades]

No, the arguement is that Joker has no familarity with Nintendo's fan base

Not to pick you out Diddy Kong as you seem nice, but Persona 5 was held in high regards by many figures in the Nintendo and Smash community such as RelaxAlax, Alpharad, Etika, Gamexplain, Rogersbase, etc.

The style of Smash UI that everyone likes in Ultimate is literally ripped from Persona 5.

I’d say Persona 5 has left a pretty big dent in the Nintendo community, regardless of its non-Nintendo console origins.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Not to pick you out Diddy Kong as you seem nice, but Persona 5 was held in high regards by many figures in the Nintendo and Smash community such as RelaxAlax, Alpharad, Etika, Gamexplain, Rogersbase, etc.

The style of Smash UI that everyone likes in Ultimate is literally ripped from Persona 5.

I’d say Persona 5 has left a pretty big dent in the Nintendo community, regardless of its non-Nintendo console origins.

Now I also didn't know that! What exactly is the style that was ripped from Persona 5 to Ultimate..!? This is totally new to me!

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Now I also didn't know that! What exactly is the style that was ripped from Persona 5 to Ultimate..!? This is totally new to me!

The cut of character portraits at Final Smash is VERY similar to how Persona 5 does it, which Joker also sometimes does when getting Arsene. Not to mention Sakurai said P5 served as inspiration for the UI. Persona 5's UI is so iconic that people literally cosplayed as it

 

[Captain Shades]

Now I also didn't know that! What exactly is the style that was ripped from Persona 5 to Ultimate..!? This is totally new to me!

The UI or menu design, as well as the flashy match ending screens and KOs were all styles that Sakurai took from P5.

Also the high contrasting colors of red, white, and black are very persona

 

[ProfPeanut]

Then why have so many newcomers in Smash Ultimate have had a sort of "degrading role" in the previous title?

Isabelle was an AT, she still got in Ultimate.
Dark Samus was an AT, she still got in Ultimate.
Ridley was a stage hazard, still got in Ultimate.
Chrom was a Final Smash, still got in Ultimate, still is part of the same exact Final Smash even lol

If we count the Mii Costumes and character alts we got even more!

Inkling was Gunner Mii costume, K.Rool a Brawler Mii Costume, Dark Samus was even also a Samus costume, Daisy has been a costume since Melee... Brawl had Little Mac as an AT, and Palutena as part of Pit's Final Smash.

I mean, it's not like am expecting ATs to turn playable by DLC. But you act like this never happens, when it clearly does, and Ultimate has been the BIGGEST proof so far.

Because Ultimate was a new Smash game, obviously. Upgrades only ever happen between Smash games, when everyone can get reevaluated for the roster. But they don't (and won't) happen in the same Smash installment, when it's much easier to go forward than look back in terms of new characters.

I have no problem considering Waluigi, Isaac, and co. as newcomers once another Smash is announced. The only issue is when people think ATs get upgraded in the same Smash game that they're already designated as ATs in, which not only begs the question as to why they weren't playable in the first place, but also ignores any jumping points that the current roster would offer to other newcomers.

 

[xzx]

New to the conversation here, but I think why some people (including myself) have so much against the third parties taking slots in Smash Bros. (especially as DLC) is because our most wanted Nintendo characters haven't been added yet, so it feels kinda unfair to us when the third parties are added instead.

For example, I have been wanting and waiting for Paper Mario to make his debute since Brawl, but seeing him not making the cut over and over saddens me - especially seeing as other Mario characters get in (like Rosalina and Piranha Plant). I do get jealous, I'll admit. But at least they are Nintendo characters. So when DLC gets announced, I see this as another opportunity for Paper Mario to get added. That's why I get disappointed when the new DLC character ends up being a third party instead.

Though, the real reason as to why I am against most third parties in the first place is because of the fact that the first parties that are left are still missing. I still think that notable first party characters like Paper Mario, Chibi-Robo, Isaac, Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong are missing and thus seeing third parties "taking" their slots is a bit... "unfair". (The only characters I truly support though are Paper Mario, Chibi-Robo and the iconic third party character Bomber Man.)

Third parties like Sonic, Mega Man and Pac-Man are great inclusions, don't get me wrong, as they are great gaming icons. But Bayonetta? Cloud? Joker? They feel a little bit off, imo. They feel rather gimmicky and niche than iconic. (If you're gonna have third parties before first parties then at least pick those that make sense, like Bomber Man.)

Now, if Smash would already have the big remaining first party characters in then I wouldn't mind having the third parties, as they would feel more like bonuses than "wasted" slots.

That's the problem most people have with third parties I think. Or at least, that's my issue.

In the end, Sakurai and Nintendo pick whoever they want, even if it is brown rectangular paperbag. It's their game at the end of the day. But that doesn't mean I can't get disappointed.

 

[The DanMan051]

New to the conversation here, but I think why some people (including myself) have so much against the third parties taking slots in Smash Bros. (especially as DLC) is because our most wanted Nintendo characters haven't been added yet, so it feels kinda unfair to us when the third parties are added instead.

For example, I have been wanting and waiting for Paper Mario to make his debute since Brawl, but seeing him not making the cut over and over saddens me - especially seeing as other Mario characters get in (like Rosalina and Piranha Plant). I do get jealous, I'll admit. But at least they are Nintendo characters. So when DLC gets announced, I see this as another opportunity for Paper Mario to get added. That's why I get disappointed when the new DLC character ends up being a third party instead.

Though, the real reason as to why I am against most third parties in the first place is because of the fact that the first parties that are left are still missing. I still think that notable first party characters like Paper Mario, Chibi-Robo, Isaac, Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong are missing and thus seeing third parties "taking" their slots is a bit... "unfair". (The only characters I truly support though are Paper Mario, Chibi-Robo and the iconic third party character Bomber Man.)

Third parties like Sonic, Mega Man and Pac-Man are great inclusions, don't get me wrong, as they are great gaming icons. But Bayonetta? Cloud? Joker? They feel a little bit off, imo. They feel rather gimmicky and niche than iconic. (If you're gonna have third parties before first parties then at least pick those that make sense, like Bomber Man.)

Now, if Smash would already have the big remaining first party characters in then I wouldn't mind having the third parties, as they would feel more like bonuses than "wasted" slots.

That's the problem most people have with third parties I think. Or at least, that's my issue.

In the end, Sakurai and Nintendo pick whoever they want, even if it is brown rectangular paperbag. It's their game at the end of the day. But that doesn't mean I can't get disappointed.

You just called Bomberman "iconic" and Cloud "niche" when the latter's one game has sold more than the former's entire series and is the face of the most popular RPG series in existence.

Bomberman does not make sense at all. He's an old character with non-existent demand and no real outside appeal.

How the hell are Chibi-Robo and Isaac "notable"? Chibi-Robo was always a niche series that died back in the Wii days only to be "revived" by a mediocre platformer on the 3DS. And Golden Sun is another series that bears the dishonor of dying twice-- didn't have a single game between 2002 and 2010 and has had nothing since. And nobody's really clamoring for Paper Mario or Dixie Kong-- even in the fandom echo chamber mostly desires 3rd parties at this point.

Bayonetta and Joker both had a ton of hype around them, because their games had very positive reception and their reveals came out of left field. And Joker both represents the long-running SMT series and is from the most critically acclaimed JRPG of the console generation-- said game was nominated for GotY up against Super Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild and has sold 2.7 million units (nearly 3 times as much as Bomberman's best selling game, which isn't even in Konami's top 20).

Maybe if you did a modicum of research and thought about things logically, you wouldn't be nearly as disappointed.

EDIT: Also, I like how you have Bandana Dee but ignore Rex even though the latter consistently does just as well/better than the former in fan polls.

 

[Lenidem]

Maybe if you did a modicum of research and thought about things logically, you wouldn't be nearly as disappointed.

Logic and desire-disappointment are two different things. Knowing that something will happen, and why, doesn't make you like that thing if you wanted something else. You don't need to explain me why Toad, Dixie Kong and Skull Kid are not playable, I actually understand. That doesn't change the fact that I would prefer them over charcaters whose games I've never played and hence mean nothing to me.

I guess that's want xzx wanted to say.

 

[osby]

Logic and desire-disappointment are two different things. Knowing that something will happen, and why, doesn't make you like that thing if you wanted something else. You don't need to explain me why Toad, Dixie Kong and Skull Kid are not playable, I actually understand. That doesn't change the fact that I would prefer them over charcaters whose games I've never played and hence mean nothing to me.

I guess that's want xzx wanted to say.

But that doesn't explain anything.

I've never played Majora's Mask, so Skull Kid means nothing to me. That's it, it doesn't have to do with who owns him or who got in before him. It's just my personal experience being different than others.

That doesn't mean I would be disappointed if Skull Kid gets in "over" a character I want because I know he has reasons to be in Smash.

Some people convince themselves their characters deserve a place over others purely because of bias and they have nobody but themselves to blame for their disappointment.

 

[The DanMan051]

Logic and desire-disappointment are two different things. Knowing that something will happen, and why, doesn't make you like that thing if you wanted something else. You don't need to explain me why Toad, Dixie Kong and Skull Kid are not playable, I actually understand. That doesn't change the fact that I would prefer them over charcaters whose games I've never played and hence mean nothing to me.

I guess that's want xzx wanted to say.

He was biased to the point of ignoring facts in his own post, especially in regards to Bomberman-- that's mostly what I was calling out.

And there are tons of characters in Smash from games that I've never played; that doesn't mean I dislike them or don't enjoy them (heck, I've never even touched Persona 5-- doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed Joker a ton). Heck, I've never bought or beaten a Mario or LoZ game.
I'm down for most any character as long as they bring a unique moveset to the table.

 

[xzx]

You just called Bomberman "iconic" and Cloud "niche" when the latter's one game has sold more than the former's entire series and is the face of the most popular RPG series in existence.

Bomberman does not make sense at all. He's an old character with non-existent demand and no real outside appeal.

How the hell are Chibi-Robo and Isaac "notable"? Chibi-Robo was always a niche series that died back in the Wii days only to be "revived" by a mediocre platformer on the 3DS. And Golden Sun is another series that bears the dishonor of dying twice-- didn't have a single game between 2002 and 2010 and has had nothing since. And nobody's really clamoring for Paper Mario or Dixie Kong-- even in the fandom echo chamber mostly desires 3rd parties at this point.

Bayonetta and Joker both had a ton of hype around them, because their games had very positive reception and their reveals came out of left field. And Joker both represents the long-running SMT series and is from the most critically acclaimed JRPG of the console generation-- said game was nominated for GotY up against Super Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild and has sold 2.7 million units (nearly 3 times as much as Bomberman's best selling game, which isn't even in Konami's top 20).

Maybe if you did a modicum of research and thought about things logically, you wouldn't be nearly as disappointed.

EDIT: Also, I like how you have Bandana Dee but ignore Rex even though the latter consistently does just as well/better than the former in fan polls.

Yes, Bomberman is more iconic than Cloud imo. How many games have Bomberman been the face in his games vs Cloud? You brought up sales numbers as an argument to "prove" that Cloud is more iconic than Bomberman, but I heavily disagree with that statement. How many random people would recognize Cloud vs. Bomberman? Who have been around for the longest amount of time, especially on Nintendo consoles? Who would people call more iconic and "gaming"?

You wrote that Bomberman doesn't make sense at all and that he's an old character that nobody cares about. Which isn't true and thus I won't bother to argue against.

While not the best examples, Isaac and Chibi-Robo at least has (had) their own series going for them and would bring something unique to the table. No offense to Cloud, but who would be more unique in Smash: just another swordsman swinging his sword or another swordsman utilizing psynergy in his moveset/a robot that can utilize many different tools in his moves, like a spoon, toothbrush, his cord, his "pocket" head etc. See, that's the point I wanna make.

Don't underestimate the amount of people wanting Paper Mario and Dixie Kong. At least from Paper Mario fans, we're really quiet, but we're many. Especially in Japan. (Though I don't like the thought that the one screaming the loudest should get their character in Smash, even if it has worked before. But I digress.)

I have never claimed Bayonetta and Joker aren't popular characters. But they sure as heck are niche picks. Yes, Isaac and Chibi-Robo are niche characters too, but at least they are Nintendo characters that could bring a lot to the table uniqueness-wise. Unless I missed it I never saw Bayonetta fans and Joker fans being vocal about having them in Smash. Or at least, not as vocal as the Ridley fans, King K. Rool fans or even the Shulk fans. Just admit it: Joker got in because Sakurai wanted him, and not because there was a massive fan outburst for him. Bayonetta got in just because she was the most realizable character to pick. Sakurai even stated that Bayonetta was easy to implement due to her models already being on the Wii U engine and thus porting those models and animations were no hassle.

Your logic is "the more popular a character is (based on their sales), the higher chance of being picked for Smash they should have", but I think this would mess up Smash a lot. I don't care that much about popularity. Nothing wrong with picking popular characters tbh, but what about characters that could bring something unique to the table instead? I swear, people more often than not forget that this is a Nintendo game focusing on Nintendo characters. Yes, there are a lot more Nintendo characters than not, but it can't be denied that some Nintendo characters are still missing and that third parties gets a little too much attention, especially in the DLC era. (I've touched upon this in my last post.)

Yes, both Bayonetta and Joker brings something unique to the table, but so would Chibi-Robo, Paper Mario, Isaac and Bandana Dee do, with the added bonus that they are Nintendo characters and have been around for longer.

Not denying Rex's popularity, but in how many games has he starred in now again? Of course, he would be a great addition, but is he more unique than say, Paper Mario or Isaac? Still, I would much rather have Rex over Cloud, Bayonetta and Joker combined.

In the end, though, Sakurai and Nintendo pick whoever they want based of whatever. But that doesn't mean I am not allowed to get disappointed.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes, Bomberman is more iconic than Cloud imo. How many games have Bomberman been the face in his games vs Cloud? You brought up sales numbers as an argument to "prove" that Cloud is more iconic than Bomberman, but I heavily disagree with that statement. How many random people would recognize Cloud vs. Bomberman? Who have been around for the longest amount of time, especially on Nintendo consoles? Who would people call more iconic and "gaming"?

You wrote that Bomberman doesn't make sense at all and that he's an old character that nobody cares about. Which isn't true and thus I won't bother to argue against.

While not the best examples, Isaac and Chibi-Robo at least has (had) their own series going for them and would bring something unique to the table. No offense to Cloud, but who would be more unique in Smash: just another swordsman swinging his sword or another swordsman utilizing psynergy in his moveset/a robot that can utilize many different tools in his moves, like a spoon, toothbrush, his cord, his "pocket" head etc. See, that's the point I wanna make.

Don't underestimate the amount of people wanting Paper Mario and Dixie Kong. At least from Paper Mario fans, we're really quiet, but we're many. Especially in Japan. (Though I don't like the thought that the one screaming the loudest should get their character in Smash, even if it has worked before. But I digress.)

I have never claimed Bayonetta and Joker aren't popular characters. But they sure as heck are niche picks. Yes, Isaac and Chibi-Robo are niche characters too, but at least they are Nintendo characters that could bring a lot to the table uniqueness-wise. Unless I missed it I never saw Bayonetta fans and Joker fans being vocal about having them in Smash. Or at least, not as vocal as the Ridley fans, King K. Rool fans or even the Shulk fans. Just admit it: Joker got in because Sakurai wanted him, and not because there was a massive fan outburst for him. Bayonetta got in just because she was the most realizable character to pick. Sakurai even stated that Bayonetta was easy to implement due to her models already being on the Wii U engine and thus porting those models and animations were no hassle.

Your logic is "the more popular a character is (based on their sales), the higher chance of being picked for Smash they should have", but I think this would mess up Smash a lot. I don't care that much about popularity. Nothing wrong with picking popular characters tbh, but what about characters that could bring something unique to the table instead? I swear, people more often than not forget that this is a Nintendo game focusing on Nintendo characters. Yes, there are a lot more Nintendo characters than not, but it can't be denied that some Nintendo characters are still missing and that third parties gets a little too much attention, especially in the DLC era. (I've touched upon this in my last post.)

Yes, both Bayonetta and Joker brings something unique to the table, but so would Chibi-Robo, Paper Mario, Isaac and Bandana Dee do, with the added bonus that they are Nintendo characters and have been around for longer.

Not denying Rex's popularity, but in how many games has he starred in now again? Of course, he would be a great addition, but is he more unique than say, Paper Mario or Isaac? Still, I would much rather have Rex over Cloud, Bayonetta and Joker combined.

In the end, though, Sakurai and Nintendo pick whoever they want based of whatever. But that doesn't mean I am not allowed to get disappointed.

The thing with Cloud isn’t just sales.

He made a legacy for the PS1, his game literally inspired an incredibly extense lore expanded through many spin offs and movies, he is considered one of the faces of Square Enix, he was someone who most people on the internet wanted to see fighting Link, people recognize his look...

I could keep telling more stuff, but my point is already clear as water: Cloud is an icon.
Saying that Bomberman has more influence than Cloud is like saying that Woody Woodpecker is more important or powerful on the animation industry than Mickey Mouse.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

As long as the 3rd party is hype as hell for (or interests) me, I don’t really give a **** about which ones get in Smash

New to the conversation here, but I think why some people (including myself) have so much against the third parties taking slots in Smash Bros. (especially as DLC) is because our most wanted Nintendo characters haven't been added yet, so it feels kinda unfair to us when the third parties are added instead.

For example, I have been wanting and waiting for Paper Mario to make his debute since Brawl, but seeing him not making the cut over and over saddens me - especially seeing as other Mario characters get in (like Rosalina and Piranha Plant). I do get jealous, I'll admit. But at least they are Nintendo characters. So when DLC gets announced, I see this as another opportunity for Paper Mario to get added. That's why I get disappointed when the new DLC character ends up being a third party instead.

Though, the real reason as to why I am against most third parties in the first place is because of the fact that the first parties that are left are still missing. I still think that notable first party characters like Paper Mario, Chibi-Robo, Isaac, Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong are missing and thus seeing third parties "taking" their slots is a bit... "unfair". (The only characters I truly support though are Paper Mario, Chibi-Robo and the iconic third party character Bomber Man.)

Third parties like Sonic, Mega Man and Pac-Man are great inclusions, don't get me wrong, as they are great gaming icons. But Bayonetta? Cloud? Joker? They feel a little bit off, imo. They feel rather gimmicky and niche than iconic. (If you're gonna have third parties before first parties then at least pick those that make sense, like Bomber Man.)

Now, if Smash would already have the big remaining first party characters in then I wouldn't mind having the third parties, as they would feel more like bonuses than "wasted" slots.

That's the problem most people have with third parties I think. Or at least, that's my issue.

In the end, Sakurai and Nintendo pick whoever they want, even if it is brown rectangular paperbag. It's their game at the end of the day. But that doesn't mean I can't get disappointed.

You just called Bomberman "iconic" and Cloud "niche" when the latter's one game has sold more than the former's entire series and is the face of the most popular RPG series in existence.

Bomberman does not make sense at all. He's an old character with non-existent demand and no real outside appeal.

How the hell are Chibi-Robo and Isaac "notable"? Chibi-Robo was always a niche series that died back in the Wii days only to be "revived" by a mediocre platformer on the 3DS. And Golden Sun is another series that bears the dishonor of dying twice-- didn't have a single game between 2002 and 2010 and has had nothing since. And nobody's really clamoring for Paper Mario or Dixie Kong-- even in the fandom echo chamber mostly desires 3rd parties at this point.

Bayonetta and Joker both had a ton of hype around them, because their games had very positive reception and their reveals came out of left field. And Joker both represents the long-running SMT series and is from the most critically acclaimed JRPG of the console generation-- said game was nominated for GotY up against Super Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild and has sold 2.7 million units (nearly 3 times as much as Bomberman's best selling game, which isn't even in Konami's top 20).

Maybe if you did a modicum of research and thought about things logically, you wouldn't be nearly as disappointed.

EDIT: Also, I like how you have Bandana Dee but ignore Rex even though the latter consistently does just as well/better than the former in fan polls.

He was biased to the point of ignoring facts in his own post, especially in regards to Bomberman-- that's mostly what I was calling out.

And there are tons of characters in Smash from games that I've never played; that doesn't mean I dislike them or don't enjoy them (heck, I've never even touched Persona 5-- doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed Joker a ton). Heck, I've never bought or beaten a Mario or LoZ game.
I'm down for most any character as long as they bring a unique moveset to the table.

Yes, Bomberman is more iconic than Cloud imo. How many games have Bomberman been the face in his games vs Cloud? You brought up sales numbers as an argument to "prove" that Cloud is more iconic than Bomberman, but I heavily disagree with that statement. How many random people would recognize Cloud vs. Bomberman? Who have been around for the longest amount of time, especially on Nintendo consoles? Who would people call more iconic and "gaming"?

You wrote that Bomberman doesn't make sense at all and that he's an old character that nobody cares about. Which isn't true and thus I won't bother to argue against.

While not the best examples, Isaac and Chibi-Robo at least has (had) their own series going for them and would bring something unique to the table. No offense to Cloud, but who would be more unique in Smash: just another swordsman swinging his sword or another swordsman utilizing psynergy in his moveset/a robot that can utilize many different tools in his moves, like a spoon, toothbrush, his cord, his "pocket" head etc. See, that's the point I wanna make.

Don't underestimate the amount of people wanting Paper Mario and Dixie Kong. At least from Paper Mario fans, we're really quiet, but we're many. Especially in Japan. (Though I don't like the thought that the one screaming the loudest should get their character in Smash, even if it has worked before. But I digress.)

I have never claimed Bayonetta and Joker aren't popular characters. But they sure as heck are niche picks. Yes, Isaac and Chibi-Robo are niche characters too, but at least they are Nintendo characters that could bring a lot to the table uniqueness-wise. Unless I missed it I never saw Bayonetta fans and Joker fans being vocal about having them in Smash. Or at least, not as vocal as the Ridley fans, King K. Rool fans or even the Shulk fans. Just admit it: Joker got in because Sakurai wanted him, and not because there was a massive fan outburst for him. Bayonetta got in just because she was the most realizable character to pick. Sakurai even stated that Bayonetta was easy to implement due to her models already being on the Wii U engine and thus porting those models and animations were no hassle.

Your logic is "the more popular a character is (based on their sales), the higher chance of being picked for Smash they should have", but I think this would mess up Smash a lot. I don't care that much about popularity. Nothing wrong with picking popular characters tbh, but what about characters that could bring something unique to the table instead? I swear, people more often than not forget that this is a Nintendo game focusing on Nintendo characters. Yes, there are a lot more Nintendo characters than not, but it can't be denied that some Nintendo characters are still missing and that third parties gets a little too much attention, especially in the DLC era. (I've touched upon this in my last post.)

Yes, both Bayonetta and Joker brings something unique to the table, but so would Chibi-Robo, Paper Mario, Isaac and Bandana Dee do, with the added bonus that they are Nintendo characters and have been around for longer.

Not denying Rex's popularity, but in how many games has he starred in now again? Of course, he would be a great addition, but is he more unique than say, Paper Mario or Isaac? Still, I would much rather have Rex over Cloud, Bayonetta and Joker combined.

In the end, though, Sakurai and Nintendo pick whoever they want based of whatever. But that doesn't mean I am not allowed to get disappointed.

The thing with Cloud isn’t just sales.

He made a legacy for the PS1, his game literally inspired an incredibly extense lore expanded through many spin offs and movies, he is considered one of the faces of Square Enix, he was someone who most people on the internet wanted to see fighting Link, people recognize his look...

I could keep telling more stuff, but my point is already clear as water: Cloud is an icon.
Saying that Bomberman has more influence than Cloud is like saying that Woody Woodpecker is more important or powerful on the animation industry than Mickey Mouse.

Well look at this...the plot is getting thicc and spicy up in here

 

[Dee Dude]

“Bomberman isn’t iconic and makes no sense”

Ok, Bull. ****

I’m definitely not agreeing that Cloud and FF are niche but to say that Bomberman has non-existent demand and has no outside appeal is downright idiotic.

I’m not the biggest Bomberman fan/supporter but I’m actually aware that his series and legacy is freaking huge.

-Bomberman has over 70 titles in the past 35 years and is the sixth longest running video game franchise in history, debuting two years after Mario.

-I don’t know what rock you’re living in but Bomberman is clearly well known and popular in the entire gaming community.

-I don’t know much about pre-E3 character speculation but I can tell there was a good amount of salt/disappointment when his AT got revealed and being the first non-represented 3rd Party to have one meaning that he was requested.

-Had Super Bomberman R as a launch title for the Switch which sold a million copies alone so he’s clearly recent with his latest game being Bombergirl last year.

Look, to call Cloud niche is stupid but so is calling say Bomberman “non-existent”.

They’re both iconic and have gaming legacy.

 

[Deleted member]

“Bomberman isn’t iconic and makes no sense”

Ok, Bull. ****

I’m definitely not agreeing that Cloud and FF are niche but to say that Bomberman has non-existent demand and has no outside appeal is downright idiotic.

I’m not the biggest Bomberman fan/supporter but I’m actually aware that his series and legacy is freaking huge.

-Bomberman has over 70 titles in the past 35 years and is the sixth longest running video game franchise in history, debuting two years after Mario.

-I don’t know what rock you’re living in but Bomberman is clearly well known and popular in the entire gaming community.

-I don’t know much about pre-E3 character speculation but I can tell there was a good amount of salt/disappointment when his AT got revealed and being the first non-represented 3rd Party to have one.

-Had Super Bomberman R as a launch title for the Switch which sold a million copies alone so he’s clearly recent with his latest game being Bombergirl last year.

Look, to call Cloud niche is stupid but so is calling say Bomberman “non-existent”.

I'm not saying that Bomberman lacks a demand.

He is popular, has games which are remembered fondly and a good support on the Smash community.

My comment was just explaining why he isn't at the level of Mario or Cloud, not much else.

Going back to my Woody Woodpecker example, that character is also loved and has a decent reputation... But he isn't the face of a specific genre of animation like Mickey Mouse is.

Nothing against Bomberman, since I would in fact love to see him playable in the future.

 

[Dee Dude]

I'm not saying that Bomberman lacks a demand.

He is popular, has games which are remembered fondly and a good support on the Smash community.

My comment was just explaining why he isn't at the level of Mario or Cloud, not much else.

Going back to my Woody Woodpecker example, that character is also loved and has a decent reputation... But he isn't the face of a specific genre of animation like Mickey Mouse is.

Nothing against Bomberman, since I would in fact love to see him playable in the future.

Not towards you, this was directed against @TheDanMan051

 

[Deleted member]

Not towards you, this was directed against @TheDanMan051

Oh, fair enough then.

At least my reply has made my argument a bit more clear just in case.

 

[Opossum]

Yes, Bomberman is more iconic than Cloud imo. How many games have Bomberman been the face in his games vs Cloud? You brought up sales numbers as an argument to "prove" that Cloud is more iconic than Bomberman, but I heavily disagree with that statement. How many random people would recognize Cloud vs. Bomberman? Who have been around for the longest amount of time, especially on Nintendo consoles? Who would people call more iconic and "gaming"?

You wrote that Bomberman doesn't make sense at all and that he's an old character that nobody cares about. Which isn't true and thus I won't bother to argue against.

While not the best examples, Isaac and Chibi-Robo at least has (had) their own series going for them and would bring something unique to the table. No offense to Cloud, but who would be more unique in Smash: just another swordsman swinging his sword or another swordsman utilizing psynergy in his moveset/a robot that can utilize many different tools in his moves, like a spoon, toothbrush, his cord, his "pocket" head etc. See, that's the point I wanna make.

Don't underestimate the amount of people wanting Paper Mario and Dixie Kong. At least from Paper Mario fans, we're really quiet, but we're many. Especially in Japan. (Though I don't like the thought that the one screaming the loudest should get their character in Smash, even if it has worked before. But I digress.)

I have never claimed Bayonetta and Joker aren't popular characters. But they sure as heck are niche picks. Yes, Isaac and Chibi-Robo are niche characters too, but at least they are Nintendo characters that could bring a lot to the table uniqueness-wise. Unless I missed it I never saw Bayonetta fans and Joker fans being vocal about having them in Smash. Or at least, not as vocal as the Ridley fans, King K. Rool fans or even the Shulk fans. Just admit it: Joker got in because Sakurai wanted him, and not because there was a massive fan outburst for him. Bayonetta got in just because she was the most realizable character to pick. Sakurai even stated that Bayonetta was easy to implement due to her models already being on the Wii U engine and thus porting those models and animations were no hassle.

Your logic is "the more popular a character is (based on their sales), the higher chance of being picked for Smash they should have", but I think this would mess up Smash a lot. I don't care that much about popularity. Nothing wrong with picking popular characters tbh, but what about characters that could bring something unique to the table instead? I swear, people more often than not forget that this is a Nintendo game focusing on Nintendo characters. Yes, there are a lot more Nintendo characters than not, but it can't be denied that some Nintendo characters are still missing and that third parties gets a little too much attention, especially in the DLC era. (I've touched upon this in my last post.)

Yes, both Bayonetta and Joker brings something unique to the table, but so would Chibi-Robo, Paper Mario, Isaac and Bandana Dee do, with the added bonus that they are Nintendo characters and have been around for longer.

Not denying Rex's popularity, but in how many games has he starred in now again? Of course, he would be a great addition, but is he more unique than say, Paper Mario or Isaac? Still, I would much rather have Rex over Cloud, Bayonetta and Joker combined.

In the end, though, Sakurai and Nintendo pick whoever they want based of whatever. But that doesn't mean I am not allowed to get disappointed.

There is no way in hell Bomberman is "show people in the street his picture and they'll know who he is" levels of iconic, especially not more so than Cloud.

Quality over quantity. Final Fantasy VII has a much bigger and longer lasting legacy than any single Bomberman game. Between the two, Bomberman's the one that's comparatively niche.

 

[Deleted member]

There is no way in hell Bomberman is "show people in the street his picture and they'll know who he is" levels of iconic, especially not more so than Cloud.

Quality over quantity. Final Fantasy VII has a much bigger and longer lasting legacy than any single Bomberman game. Between the two, Bomberman's the one that's comparatively niche.

In that case you aren't wrong.

The problem Dee Dude had was just that some claimed that nobody cared about Bomberman, which hopefully has been solved.

 

[Lenidem]

But that doesn't explain anything.

I've never played Majora's Mask, so Skull Kid means nothing to me. That's it, it doesn't have to do with who owns him or who got in before him. It's just my personal experience being different than others.

That doesn't mean I would be disappointed if Skull Kid gets in "over" a character I want because I know he has reasons to be in Smash.

Some people convince themselves their characters deserve a place over others purely because of bias and they have nobody but themselves to blame for their disappointment.

I agree. But I can understand some disappointement if you feel like all or most newcomers are probably gonna be characters you don't kow or care about.

Heck, I've never bought or beaten a Mario or LoZ game.
I'm down for most any character as long as they bring a unique moveset to the table.

That's a wonder for me - no irony at all! The reason why I was drawn to Smash in the first place is the idea of having Mario fighting Link and other mascots I knew and loved. Maybe I stayed because Smash is great by itself. But if it was only characters that I didn't know, I would never got passionate about it. May I ask how you started playing Smash Bros., and which franchises you know or knew before?

 

[The DanMan051]

Okay, while I underestimated Bomberman a bit a lot of that was because of the baseless Cloud claims in the same post. I'd say he's about on-par with Ryu Hayabusa; a "classic" character, but doesn't stick out from the crowd. I'd be down for him if he was added, but I just don't think he's likely-- and trying to claim he's bigger or more "iconic" than Cloud is especially tone deaf.

That's a wonder for me - no irony at all! The reason why I was drawn to Smash in the first place is the idea of having Mario fighting Link and other mascots I knew and loved. Maybe I stayed because Smash is great by itself. But if it was only characters that I didn't know, I would never got passionate about it. May I ask how you started playing Smash Bros., and which franchises you know or knew before?

EDIT: I'll spoilertag this because it really has nothing to do with the thread itself and is a bit rambly:

Spoiler

IIRC my family got Brawl at the very start of 2010 because my elder brother had been playing it at a friend's house and really enjoyed it. The first character I played was Fox, as Star Fox was the closest thing I had to a favorite series back then (played the hell out of 64 and Command). I was also familiar with Fire Emblem, as my elder brother had played both Sacred Stones and Shadow Dragon (I wouldn't get into the series myself until 2 years later)-- seeing that Marth was in the game made me pretty excited, and as soon as he was unlocked he pretty much supplanted Fox as my main.

Obviously I knew of Mario and The Legend of Zelda, and had played a little bit of 64, OoT, and my brother's copy of NSMB (note how I specified "never bought or beaten"), with Pokemon mostly being a mystery aside from not being allowed to watch it or get the trading cards and Kirby... well, I thought he was a cartoon character first and foremost! And let's just say Ness and Lucas were the weirdest things I'd seen in a game since I found out there were characters with unnatural hair colors. (I actually knew something of MGS at that point because my elder brother also had his eyes on Peace Walker, and he bought the PSP bundle shortly after it launched that same year we got Brawl).

Smash ended up making me a Pokemon fan and early Smash 4 speculation got me into Xenoblade; heck, Smash speculation and Smash in general introduced me to a lot of new franchises (though I'm at the point now where I'm pretty much ahead of the community-- I knew roughly who Erdrick was years ago). Though there's also the sad side of things-- the Smash community has also kinda turned me against other series (it's a bit hard for me to be even-handed in regards to Golden Sun, between the amount of conspiracy theories peddled by Isaac supporters and a lot of vocal hatred for FE and Xenoblade. Heck, being an FE/Pokemon/Xenoblade fan in general is a bit rough in the online Nintendo community because you've got a bunch of the big kids ******** about your favorite series getting any sort of spotlight and/or wishing death upon them with the series' respective online communities also being fractured as hell).

Getting into Smash without knowing most of the series in it (as well as becoming a casual fan of a traditional fighting game series a few years later) pretty much established my character/roster philosophy: "as long as they're unique and look cool, no complaints from me".

 

[PhantomShab]

"Bomberman is not an iconic character."

Yikes. How do even get to that level of revisionist history? lol

 

[cmbsfm]

Can’t believe I just saw this thread. Before I give my own opinion, just a little nitpick. You accuse Doomguy of having little history with Nintendo yet almost every game in the series has been on a Nintendo console bar Doom 3.

Anyway, why does it matter if the character has a low association with Nintendo? If they’re popular video game characters, what’s wrong with them? I think even Sakurai himself said these console wars are childish and he doesn’t care about it. People should just stop being fanboys and learn to appreciate games made for other consoles. It’s not healthy to have loyalty to a company, who at the end of the day is only after your money. It’s incredibly telling when the reveals of Snake and Cloud generated massive hype and publicity for the franchise. No wonder they’re gonna keep picking popular video game characters while ignoring their association with Nintendo.

 

[The DanMan051]

"Bomberman is not an iconic character."

Yikes. How do even get to that level of revisionist history? lol

Yikes. How do we even get to that low level of reading comprehension?
Nowhere did I say that Bomberman isn't "iconic". I specifically said:

You just called Bomberman "iconic" and Cloud "niche" when the latter's one game has sold more than the former's entire series and is the face of the most popular RPG series in existence.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of acting like he was bigger than Cloud and used some hard numbers to back it up (FFVII has sold 11 million, Bomberman's entire series has sold 10 million-- and 1 game doing that much compared to an entire series is also notable because a good chunk of each game in the series' sales will have been from repeat buyers. Nevermind FFVII's popularity and representation in general).

I'd appreciate it if you paid attention to context instead of putting words in my mouth for the sake of trying a cheap shot.

 

[PhantomShab]

Yikes. How do we even get to that low level of reading comprehension?
Nowhere did I say that Bomberman isn't "iconic". I specifically said:


I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of acting like he was bigger than Cloud and used some hard numbers to back it up (FFVII has sold 11 million, Bomberman's entire series has sold 10 million-- and 1 game doing that much compared to an entire series is also notable because a good chunk of each game in the series' sales will have been from repeat buyers. Nevermind FFVII's popularity and representation in general).

I'd appreciate it if you paid attention to context instead of putting words in my mouth for the sake of trying a cheap shot.

Ok so NOW sales matter.

So what the hell is Bayonetta doing here then?

 

[The DanMan051]

Ok so NOW sales matter.

So what the hell is Bayonetta doing here then?

Because Everyone is Here and she was in Smash 4.

She's been part of the series for two games at this point-- get over it.

Spoiler

Or to restate what I already told you: her games are highly critically acclaimed and Nintendo published the 2nd game and is publishing the 3rd game-- a shock pick to drum up a ton of discussion and hype to push DLC sales. And that worked really damn well.
Seriously man, reading comprehension. I'm reading every word you say but it seems like you're just ignoring most of what I type.

 

[PhantomShab]

Because Everyone is Here and she was in Smash 4.

She's been part of the series for two games at this point-- get over it.

Spoiler

Or to restate what I already told you: her games are highly critically acclaimed and Nintendo published the 2nd game and is publishing the 3rd game-- a shock pick to drum up a ton of discussion and hype to push DLC sales. And that worked really damn well.
Seriously man, reading comprehension. I'm reading every word you say but it seems like you're just ignoring most of what I type.

I was talking about Smash 4 in the first place there.

 

[meleebrawler]

Nintendo-published games are treated no differently than Nintendo-developed ones, as we can see with series like Culdcept and Ever Oasis getting spirits and songs in the miscelleanous Nintendo category. And once we're there sales don't matter that much. Right, ? Not everybody gets in for the same reasons, let's not forget this.

 

[Captain Shades]

Can’t believe I just saw this thread. Before I give my own opinion, just a little nitpick. You accuse Doomguy of having little history with Nintendo yet almost every game in the series has been on a Nintendo console bar Doom 3.

He did the same thing to Minecraft, even though Steve has been on 3 of the past Nintendo consoles and Story Mode made it to Wii U. There literally hasn’t been a Minecraft game left off Nintendo hardware.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There is no way in hell Bomberman is "show people in the street his picture and they'll know who he is" levels of iconic, especially not more so than Cloud.

Quality over quantity. Final Fantasy VII has a much bigger and longer lasting legacy than any single Bomberman game. Between the two, Bomberman's the one that's comparatively niche.

I gotta ask if it really matters who is more iconic when they both pass a certain bar.

I mean, I think the bar is whether or not a character is iconic/revelutionary to their genre.

Every 3rd party character fits perfectly then.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Man, the longer this thread goes on the more I realize people really have a victim complex about Bayonetta

 

[Captain Shades]

Man, the longer this thread goes on the more I realize people really have a victim complex about Bayonetta

More surprising that even though Bayonetta is mentioned, no one has said Shantae is a bigger character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

More surprising that even though Bayonetta is mentioned, no one has said Shantae is a bigger character.

Not too sure if that's entirely true as it took Shantae a long time to get a second game and Wayforward had to ask fans for money to make Half Genie Hero

 

[meleebrawler]

Not too sure if that's entirely true as it took Shantae a long time to get a second game and Wayforward had to ask fans for money to make Half Genie Hero

What's the point here when Platinum has had to ask bigger companies to publish all the Bayonetta games? They aren't indie because of this, even though it's come to light recently that they'd really like to. And as far as indie games go, not many can claim to have 5 titles under their belt.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

What's the point here when Platinum has had to ask bigger companies to publish all the Bayonetta games? They aren't indie because of this, even though it's come to light recently that they'd really like to. And as far as indie games go, not many can claim to have 5 titles under their belt.

The point is that Wayforward isn't really indie as they constantly made games for other people. Plus Shantae wasn't the most realizable character from the ballot

 

[meleebrawler]

The point is that Wayforward isn't really indie as they constantly made games for other people. Plus Shantae wasn't the most realizable character from the ballot

If you make your own games without input from other companies, you're an indie. Besides, those times Wayforward makes games for others, they're the ones being approached instead of the other way around. Doesn't that speak more about their excellent track record and others trusting them with their work?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If you make your own games without input from other companies, you're an indie. Besides, those times Wayforward makes games for others, they're the ones being approached instead of the other way around. Doesn't that speak more about their excellent track record and others trusting them with their work?

So I misunderstood the definition of indie. My mistake

 

[Captain Shades]

Not too sure if that's entirely true as it took Shantae a long time to get a second game and Wayforward had to ask fans for money to make Half Genie Hero

I was joking as many on Twitter threw a fit over Bayonetta as they claim Shantae is the biggest character for Smash and was the true winner of the ballot and that they hate Bayonetta for stealing her rightful spot.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I was joking as many on Twitter threw a fit over Bayonetta as they claim Shantae is the biggest character for Smash and was the true winner of the ballot and that they hate Bayonetta for stealing her rightful spot.

Really? I don't remember if I had my twitter account back then so I wouldn't know. Here it was mostly K.Rool fans

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I was joking as many on Twitter threw a fit over Bayonetta as they claim Shantae is the biggest character for Smash and was the true winner of the ballot and that they hate Bayonetta for stealing her rightful spot.

We were gonna have a character that made people horny either way, but atleast Bayonetta gave us all fears in Smash 4

They had no reason to complain about Bayo over Shantae to the point where they found the latter a bigger star

Really? I don't remember if I had my twitter account back then so I wouldn't know. Here it was mostly K.Rool fans

And Ridley...his hype never left

I gotta ask if it really matters who is more iconic when they both pass a certain bar.

I mean, I think the bar is whether or not a character is iconic/revelutionary to their genre.

Every 3rd party character fits perfectly then.

What did Richter do? Asking out of curiosity