Joker is a perfect example of why 3rd party characters (like HIM) don't belong in Super Smash Bros.

[Wyoming]

Third parties will get more people interested in Smash. That sells software units and hardware units (I, personally, don't get people who would do the latter but I am sure it happens). That's more profits and a bigger market for future DLC/entries. Win-win for Nintendo.

A Nintendo character would be a nice bone thrown to Nintendo fans, but at this point they'd only sell more packs or fighter passes. Dixie would be amazing, but I doubt many people will buy Smash because she's in. The vast majority of her fans already have the game.

I am honestly surprised this is still a debate. There have been more Smash games with third party characters than without them. The third parties are still clearly the minority by some margin as well. Maybe if half the roster were third parties I'd understand the traditionalists more, but as it is right now it's just the result of an expanding roster.

 

[Shroob]

I legit can't even believe this is an argument still in the first place.


Who seriously cares 'where' a character originated? Who gives a damn if someone like Cloud originated on the PS1 on Joker on the PS4?


They're video game characters, and that's *ALL* that should matter.



I don't understand this 'purist' mindset. There have been MORE Smash games with 3rd parties than without. They're not going anywhere, anytime soon.

 

[Kholdstare]

You don't have to play a character's series to enjoy playing as the character. Also this is more of to draw Playstation players to Smash than Nintendo players to Playstation. Persona fans will see Joker is in Smash and buy a Switch, not Switch users will see Joker is in Smash and buy Persona 5.

 

[Deleted member]

Joker actually has more meaningful Nintendo appearances at his time of joining than Cloud did. He's a main playable character in Persona Q 2 and Persona 5 Scramble.

Besides, none of the third-party characters break Nintendo themeing because they've all been on Nintendo systems or have had a franchise with Nintendo history and legacy. Choosing to be brand loyal and be apathetic towards everything else really limits your interests, and causes you to miss out on things you might have actually really liked. This ain't the 90s anymore, the console war mindset is silly.

 

[The Slayer]

I do see the point you want more Nintendo characters in. To this day, I still want Midna (or some non-Triforce rep for Zelda) to join in. But people like you and me need to understand it's never going to happen. It's fine if you don't like Joker/Persona 5, but you have to understand there's a lot of people that do like the character and/or the series. Also, the "lack of history" argument is weak since Persona is a spin-off series to Shin Megami Tensei series. And the last time I remembered, SMT has some history with Nintendo. In fact, SMT5 is coming to the Switch in the near future.

So, let's go to sleep already.

 

[Izanagi97]

I do see the point you want more Nintendo characters in. To this day, I still want Midna (or some non-Triforce rep for Zelda) to join in. But people like you and me need to understand it's never going to happen. It's fine if you don't like Joker/Persona 5, but you have to understand there's a lot of people that do like the character and/or the series. Also, the "lack of history" argument is weak since Persona is a spin-off series to Shin Megami Tensei series. And the last time I remembered, SMT has some history with Nintendo. In fact, SMT5 is coming to the Switch in the near future.

So, let's go to sleep already.

Also, when you think about it, Shin Megami Tensei was basically Pokemon before Pokemon was ever a thing. Hell, it pretty much made the Mons subgenre of RPGs when you think about it (Digital Devil Story predates Pokemon by about 10 years even though that was technically a novel, but the game based off it, Shin Megami Tensei, came out in 1992. Pokemon came out in 1996)

 

[The DanMan051]

3rd party characters generate more hype/interest and more money than 1st party characters. That's pretty much a rule of thumb.

It's win-win for everybody but a vocal minority who apparently thinks the world should revolve around them and ******** about it will change things.

Even if Joker was picked solely as a WTF pick to cash in on Persona 5's hype, IT WORKED REALLY DAMN WELL.

People were through the roof with hype and there was so much demand the entire E-shop crashed and the update was backed up all the way to hell (something I never experienced at all with Smash 4's DLC).

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I'm not a huge fan of third-parties either, but I wouldn't say any of them are a wasted slot. Some like Sonic and Mega Man absolutely deserved to get in. They had fan demand, a creative moveset, and were (and still are) some of the the most iconic faces in gaming. And even when we drift off to more obscure third-parties like Bayo and Joker, at least they end up being extremely unique in comparison to the rest of the roster.

I think a better way to phrase your complaint is, "We're getting too many third-parties too close together". That's something I can definitely agree with, as five of the past eleven newcomers have been third-parties.

Five of the past eleven newcomers?


So there's Simon, Richter, Ken, and Joker, but who's the fifth one?

3rd party characters generate more hype/interest and more money than 1st party characters. That's pretty much a rule of thumb.

It's win-win for everybody but a vocal minority who apparently thinks the world should revolve around them and ******** about it will change things.

Even if Joker was picked solely as a WTF pick to cash in on Persona 5's hype, IT WORKED REALLY DAMN WELL.

People were through the roof with hype and there was so much demand the entire E-shop crashed and the update was backed up all the way to hell (something I never experienced at all with Smash 4's DLC).

I would honestly think it to be the opposite. I'm not sure why Joker is generating so much hype when probably more than 80% of the fans have never even heard of Persona 5 before the Joker announcement let alone actually played it.

 

[The DanMan051]

I'm not sure why Joker is generating so much hype when probably more than 80% of the fans have never even heard of Persona 5 before the Joker announcement let alone actually played it.

Maybe because the vocal Smash fandom lives under a rock and far more people have heard of Persona 5 than you thought?
You basically answered your own question already.

 

[Shroob]

Five of the past eleven newcomers?


So there's Simon, Richter, Ken, and Joker, but who's the fifth one?

I would honestly think it to be the opposite. I'm not sure why Joker is generating so much hype when probably more than 80% of the fans have never even heard of Persona 5 before the Joker announcement let alone actually played it.

Yeah, no, especially if you have any online presence. If you browse more than just dedicated Nintendo stuff, you know what Persona 5 is, especially if you're subscribed to a lot of gaming/smash centric Youtube channels.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Five of the past eleven newcomers?


So there's Simon, Richter, Ken, and Joker, but who's the fifth one?

I would honestly think it to be the opposite. I'm not sure why Joker is generating so much hype when probably more than 80% of the fans have never even heard of Persona 5 before the Joker announcement let alone actually played it.

I think Cosmic means the highly speculated Erdrick

Persona 5 sold 2.4 million copies, not to mention there are loads of people who like Persona 5 but don't have a PS3/4 to play it on. It's significantly more popular than you'd think. Hell, people even cosplayed as the battle menu

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Maybe because the vocal Smash fandom lives under a rock and far more people have heard of Persona 5 than you thought?
You basically answered your own question already.

Yeah, no, especially if you have any online presence. If you browse more than just dedicated Nintendo stuff, you know what Persona 5 is, especially if you're subscribed to a lot of gaming/smash centric Youtube channels.

I don't see how my statement answered my own question.

People who own Smash Bros for obvious reasons own a Nintendo console. Why would anyone who purchases Nintendo consoles care about video games that they can't play on their Nintendo Switch (unless of course they're rich enough to buy both a Nintendo Switch and a PS4)? I know I don't have reason to care. I have never heard of that franchise prior to December 6th, 2018. It barely generated any hype from me until I saw his moveset in the trailer a few days before he got released.

I'm just saying I thought it would have been the other way around.

 

[Shroob]

I don't see how my statement answered my own question.

People who own Smash Bros for obvious reasons own a Nintendo console. Why would anyone who purchases Nintendo consoles care about video games that they can't play on their Nintendo Switch (unless of course they're rich enough to buy both a Nintendo Switch and a PS4)? I know I don't have reason to care. I have never heard of that franchise prior to December 6th, 2018. It barely generated any hype from me (until I saw his move set).

I'm just saying I thought it would have been the other way around.

Isn't the PS4 like, the most sold console of the current Gen? Hell, it's usually people buy a PS4 and THEN a Switch.


I mean, ****, Sakurai himself took inspiration from the game's menus and pretty much lifted it into Ultimate's menu designs.

 

[The DanMan051]

I don't see how my statement answered my own question.

People who own Smash Bros for obvious reasons own a Nintendo console. Why would anyone who purchases Nintendo consoles care about video games that they can't play on their Nintendo Switch (unless of course they're rich enough to buy both a Nintendo Switch and a PS4)? I know I don't have reason to care. I have never heard of that franchise prior to December 6th, 2018. It barely generated any hype from me until I saw his moveset in the trailer a few days before he got released.

I'm just saying I thought it would have been the other way around.

The PS4 came out 3 and a half years before the Switch. And it's sold nearly 100 million units.

Here's what seems to be a novel concept: people own multiple consoles.
I own both a Switch and X1, while a lot of other people I know own both a Switch and PS4. Basically nobody owns just a Switch (same deal last console generation-- the most common set-up you'd find was a Wii + either an Xbox 360 or PS3).

If you'd genuinely never heard of the franchise until Joker was announced, then I suppose you must not be an RPG fan whatsoever.

 

[Nemuresu]

:sigh:
Well, I'm late to the party, but I need to throw my cents:
You. Are. Not. Supposed. To. Buy. Their. Games.
I swear, I can't believe people still have this misconception about guest characters. It should have been clear after months talking about Joker. No, scratch that, it should have been clear as back as when Snake was announced.
People have brought it up here already, these guests are meant to attract masses to buy Smash and Switch. Reggie made that quite clear in that interview with IGN about Joker.
If that's not good, here's an experiment for you: Go look for any Injustice 2 players and ask them how many of them spent money on the new Hellboy movie just because the guy was in the game. The most likely answer is that most people didn't.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

:sigh:
Well, I'm late to the party, but I need to throw my cents:
You. Are. Not. Supposed. To. Buy. Their. Games.
I swear, I can't believe people still have this misconception about guest characters. It should have been clear after months talking about Joker. No, scratch that, it should have been clear as back as when Snake was announced.
People have brought it up here already, these guests are meant to attract masses to buy Smash and Switch. Reggie made that quite clear in that interview with IGN about Joker.
If that's not good, here's an experiment for you: Go look for any Injustice 2 players and ask them how many of them spent money on the new Hellboy movie just because the guy was in the game. The most likely answer is that most people didn't.

Ehhhhhhhhh the new Hellboy movie isn't considered very good so I'm not sure if that comparison works

 

[Nemuresu]

Ehhhhhhhhh the new Hellboy movie isn't considered very good so I'm not sure if that comparison works

Well, I still have other guns in my sleeve:
How many Tekken players like Final Fantasy or The Walking Dead?
How many SoulCalibur players like the Witcher or Nier?
And now that I brought SC, how many people here actually played 2 because of the hell of it instead of just because you saw Link as a playable character?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

The PS4 came out 3 and a half years before the Switch. And it's sold nearly 100 million units.

Here's what seems to be a novel concept: people own multiple consoles.
I own both a Switch and X1, while a lot of other people I know own both a Switch and PS4. Basically nobody owns just a Switch (same deal last console generation-- the most common set-up you'd find was a Wii + either an Xbox 360 or PS3).

If you'd genuinely never heard of the franchise until Joker was announced, then I suppose you must not be an RPG fan whatsoever.

This is even more accentuated by the fact that the Switch is part handheld, making it more likely for people to own a purely home console in addition to it compared to the Wii or Wii U, like how the DS and 3DS generally outsold their Nintendo home console counterparts while people owned a competitors home system with them. Of course there are a lot of people who use the Switch as a home system, but there is also a sizable percentage that uses it as a mostly handheld device.

I owned both a Wii U and a 3DS back in the day, but I eventually got a PS4 mid gen in order to complement my Nintendo systems. Since I use my Switch as mostly a handheld these days it works out quite well.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

So we’re talking about a 3rd party character being added to Smash, which would make it around I believe the 11th 3rd party character in the game. There are roughly 75 characters in the game, giving us over 60 characters from Nintendo’s biggest and best series. This includes Mario, Zelda, Pokémon, but even series like Earthbound and F-Zero. We have a wide range of Nintendo properties.

Then, for the characters that aren’t playable, we have Assist Trophies and Spirits. To some, these aren’t acceptable placements, but Sakurai himself has resigned himself and his work to the fact that he will never be able to satisfy every fan out there. He added spirits with this in mind.

Hundreds, if not over 1000 characters have been represented in Smash Ultimate in this way. This is more ambitious than other Smash games, clearly.

Nintendo has specifically spoken to the fact that DLC will be aimed at expanding the audience of the game. By default, this means that adding a “fan pick” such as Waluigi or Dixie Kong would not accomplish that, because these fans would have likely already bought Smash.

We have a game that has the biggest icons in gaming, as well as the protagonist and antagonists of their biggest series going up against some of the biggest names in gaming. Snake has legacy. Cloud has legacy. Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, the Belmont’s...Bayonetta and Joker bring in new gameplay potential...it’s a video game afterall, we play it, don’t we?

What makes more sense to sell to the gaming community, considering that’s the audience with more potential profit to be earned (considering folks who buy Smash will likely be buying all DLC anyway i’m sure) a top tier 3rd party like Leon Kennedy, or a D List Nintendo character like Waluigi or Bandanna Dee?

There’s no offense intended to fans of those characters. But there is a very clear distinction as to what sells more or is more appealing, especially when the game itself has been marketed as “the biggest crossover in gaming history”. Nintendo characters don’t really expand the crossover element of the game like a 3rd party character or company would.

This should be obvious at this point. If you prefer Nintendo characters to characters from other companies that’s fine. But to act like there’s some gold mine of characters that make sense at this point is a misrepresentation of what’s actually left.

 

[shinhed-echi]

DoomGuy not relevant to Nintendo?

Doom port on Snes
Doom (or was it Doom 2?) port on gba
Doom 64
Doom (2016)
Doom Eternal (2019)

That’s more ganes than even some Nintendo characters in Smash have.

 

[grizby2]

I bought the fighters pass because I simply love smash bros.
I know that even if its a character that I HATE with all my guts (incineroar, wii fit, mii's ect..) im STILL gonna pick them up. I can't think of anyone that I know that owns smash bros that would purposely choose to NOT have ALL characters... like why?

they can throw my worst nightmares at me. Minecraft steve, sans, master chief, ...freaking GROOSE from skyward sword. hell... id pay to play as a brown paper bag. none of that is going to force me to buy their games. to me its just more smash content, and I think people should stop pretenting that 3rd parties are trying to invade thier Nintendo game.

 

[Izanagi97]

DoomGuy not relevant to Nintendo?

Doom port on Snes
Doom (or was it Doom 2?) port on gba
Doom 64
Doom (2016)
Doom Eternal (2019)

That’s more ganes than even some Nintendo characters in Smash have.

That and Doom basically made a lot of the tropes you associate with Space Marines (only reason I didn't bring up the FPS part is because Wolfenstein 3D did that)

 

[lordofwood98]

Funny joke

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I also realized it's funny people say Snake is fine due to having Nintendo beginnings when he really doesn't as the NES version of Metal Gear is a port of the MSX game

 

[Oddball]

I also realized it's funny people say Snake is fine due to having Nintendo beginnings when he really doesn't as the NES version of Metal Gear is a port of the MSX game

Yeah, but the MSX might as well have not existed in the States and the NES was directly responsible for the game actually becoming a series. It's more of a technicallity thing.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, but the MSX might as well have not existed in the States and the NES was directly responsible for the game actually becoming a series. It's more of a technicallity thing.

If technicalities are fine then Joker's an SMT character and thus a good third party addition according to OP

 

[Diddy Kong]

No, we can't convince you to change your opinion anymore than anyone advocating for exclusive Nintendo based Smash will change the minds of people who have no issue with third parties. You're allowed your subjective stance on issues... but we will call people out when their arguments lack substance or have noticeable issues.

You claim that attention to third party is taking away from the roots of Smash? What are those exactly? The original Super Smash Bros was designed as a crossover fighter at its core. Yes, it didn't contain any third parties, but it was the proof of concept that worked brilliantly and was an insane proposal for the time anyway just combining 10 different Nintendo franchises into a fighting game... And then less than a year later Sakurai was already considering including third parties once his concept had taken off and they would have made it into Melee had the timing worked out. There is no root of "Nintendo only Smash Bros" that I feel a lot of people want to lay claim too. Third parties have been in the conversation for at least 18 years worth of Smash and have been actively a part of the series for 11 years. Smash has always been conceived of as a crossover game and not necessarily just a Nintendo one.

I also feel like criticizing Piranha Plant is literally the worst thing you can do for your argument. He should be the absolute golden standard of anyone looking for more deep-diving into the Nintendo back catalogue and talking about expanding the Nintendo roster to include new and interesting picks. Piranha Plant embodies the core idea of more Nintendo in Smash to a tee, but you cast him aside for "opening the door" specifically to the type of content you and people looking for more Nintendo content so desire. It's kind of difficult to advocate for Nintendo so heavily on one hand, and then just utterly reject something absolutely so Nintendo related and makes your arguments seem just more based around personal preference than ever.

I fail to see how Nintendo owned franchises have been shafted. The base game brought us 11 new characters. 8 were Nintendo characters and 3 were third parties with two of those third parties being Echoes. It also brought us 4 new stages, 3 of which were based around Nintendo IPs, and 1 give n to Castlevania since it was a brand new series. Sakurai has specifically stated that he focused on older returning stages, and made exceptions for the new IPs in Smash and the mega success of Breath of the Wild and Odyssey. King K. Rool and Ridley didn't get stages because of that focus, not because Sakurai has some unfair bias against Nintendo characters and IPs (And what stage did people even want for Ridley? Gangplank Galleon with King K. Rool is iconic at least).

It just keeps coming down to the fact that there is so much Nintendo stuff already in Smash. I really don't understand why people think that the presence of third parties diminishes all of the great work Sakurai has done over the past 20 years of representing Nintendo. None of it goes away or means any less. It's just there's additional content to all of that stuff and arguments against it for "diluting Smash" feel terribly misguided at best and downright elitist at worst. Most of us aren't saying there isn't anything left to represent from Nintendo, but we are saying we're only going to feel the effect of diminishing returns with first party characters moving forward. Yeah, there's some Nintendo IPs not currently represented with fighters or stages, and yes there are some hype first party picks out there. But expressly because Sakurai has already done such a great job incorporating most already into the series, the well is starting to run more and more dry. If we get to the point where people are trying to argue that Mach Rider is a hype edition, then I think it's safe to say that we've moved too far from appealing to non-hardcore Smash fans. We may know and love a great many characters on here and support them, but we're likely to be the minority in that regard. This doesn't mean that first party additions won't be interesting, but when Smash has cultivated a history of escalation and major hype, they're just not going to be able to cut it no matter how many deep cuts we throw in. The first party communities aren't as strong as they used to be and public opinion on the question of Smash newcomers only shifts more and more towards third party inclusions in the polls.

That's the point I think many of us are making in regards to the limitations of the remaining first party characters. If we get a few more like Dixie Kong, Toad, Waluigi, Bandanna Dee, and Isaac... then I seriously expect that there really won't be many communities with huge bases left to rally around first parties...

Well yes you are right about Piranha Plant. And while it might sound hypocritical to you, I won't pretend to like Piranha Plant more because of my arguement.

Sure I do like Piranha Plant more than Joker. I've known the enemy drone for basically as long as I know Mario, which is quite a while. Yet with the very same sentiments, they could've made Toad playable you know? That's more of my point. Toad is a more long lasting Nintendo veteran, was actually playable quite a lot even in mainline Mario games, even recent ones. So yes I do respect your opinion and how you disagree with mine because of Piranha Plant, I still don't quite think Piranha Plant is a strong choice for a newcomer.

Do I prefer Piranha Plant over Joker? Yes. I do prefer him quite a lot over 50% of the 3rd party character actually. Just an odd choice I wouldn't have picked myself. And everyone has quite a few characters they wouldn't have included themselves, let's all be honest about that. I just don't get the uproar about Joker, I don't have to like him, or agree with him being there. He might not be a Playstation exclusive anymore (as I read from this thread) or might not be one forever (the Switch is generally very popular with 3rd party developers- so it might happen).

Yet what it seems to be is that Joker is just like the Fire Emblem protagonists, interchangable every game. I don't want Persona 6's main character on the next roster, or as a next DLC spot for a future game. And it might just happen. I just don't think he's anything special. Moveset wise, lore wise, ties to Nintendo wise, anything. And yes I would've much rather have Nintendo owned DLC characters, Isaac, Dixie Kong, Paper Mario, the likes of that. Banjo-Kazooie is my prefered choice for a 3rd party addition, but I would also appriciate Amaterasu from Okami, or anything with stronger ties to Nintendo. There's also still a lot of franchises that are left unchecked who are owned by developers who already have characters on the roster. I much rather prefer the spin-off thing to be limited by those developers. And yes, Altus is part of SEGA, but still I don't think the ties are too strong.

 

[lucasla]

I see this game as a reunion of Nintendo games and classic games. But also, the classic or relevant games for new generations may not be so appealing for old fans, but they are necessary to keep the game fresh and interesting for new audiences. I'm totally fine with the addition of characters that are not from Nintendo, as long as the game still has the bigger focus on them, and I also like classic characters like Pac Man and Sonic, cause that way even more than being a party for Nintendo characters, it becomes a party for amazing videogames in general. And see these characters fighting is too fun. I understand that today, I may not be excited for Joker, or any other recent character they will eventually add, because these may not be characters that I played games as a child, but well, new generations of children deserves their new heroes too, not only the children of 30 years. I already had too much fun with the entire roster of Smash, so I'm perfectly fine with opening it a bit to new characters that are even not nintendo characters, as long as the game still keeps his identity. Or how else would we be able to shot Mario in the head with a pistol (Joker...)? This is so fun.

 

[osby]

Yet what it seems to be is that Joker is just like the Fire Emblem protagonists, interchangable every game. I don't want Persona 6's main character on the next roster, or as a next DLC spot for a future game. And it might just happen. I just don't think he's anything special. Moveset wise, lore wise, ties to Nintendo wise, anything. And yes I would've much rather have Nintendo owned DLC characters, Isaac, Dixie Kong, Paper Mario, the likes of that. Banjo-Kazooie is my prefered choice for a 3rd party addition, but I would also appriciate Amaterasu from Okami, or anything with stronger ties to Nintendo. There's also still a lot of franchises that are left unchecked who are owned by developers who already have characters on the roster. I much rather prefer the spin-off thing to be limited by those developers. And yes, Altus is part of SEGA, but still I don't think the ties are too strong.

Joker isn't really more interchangable than Cloud, though. Both of their games are very different in their series and Persona 6 needs big shoes to fill if it wants to be in the Smash game.

Again, I don't see why Nintendo ties should have any effect on a character's or game's importance but considering ATLUS makes Nintendo exclusives regularly since NES era, you picked a bad company to complain about ties not being strong enough.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Joker isn't really more interchangable than Cloud, though. Both of their games are very different in their series and Persona 6 needs big shoes to fill if it wants to be in the Smash game.

Again, I don't see why Nintendo ties should have any effect on a character's or game's importance but considering ATLUS makes Nintendo exclusives regularly since NES era, you picked a bad company to complain about ties not being strong enough.

But I don't like Cloud either. So there's that to consider. You where around when I complained about his inclusion, you should probably know. In fact, Joker is just Cloud all over, except without Final Fantasy having it's actual roots in Nintendo.

I didn't know ALTUS made Nintendo exclusives. But then again, Persona 5 is still Playstation exclusive.

But yeah, it's the Cloud situation all over. He isn't as balantly OP as Cloud was in Smash 4 however, so I forgive him. Then again, Cloud was also probably massively voted for on the ballot. I doubt Joker was...

 

[osby]

But I don't like Cloud either. So there's that to consider. You where around when I complained about his inclusion, you should probably know. In fact, Joker is just Cloud all over, except without Final Fantasy having it's actual roots in Nintendo.

I didn't know ALTUS made Nintendo exclusives. But then again, Persona 5 is still Playstation exclusive.

But yeah, it's the Cloud situation all over. He isn't as balantly OP as Cloud was in Smash 4 however, so I forgive him. Then again, Cloud was also probably massively voted for on the ballot. I doubt Joker was...

I don't really care what think about Joker or Cloud. That's subjective and meaningless to argue.

As for Joker not having any Nintendo ties, I can argue that Persona is rooted in Shin Megami Tensei, which started as and still a Nintendo exclusive. ATLUS (not ALTUS) do have strong connections with Nintendo, even though that probably wasn't the main reason why Joker was picked. And Persona 5 has a spin-off coming to Switch.

We didn't know how well Joker did in the ballot, but Smash Ballot is not the only way to measure a character's popularity. Seeing how much hype his reveal and release caused, it's probably fair to say that he was very popular. Not Cloud levels of popular, but popular enough to make a lot of people excited for his inclusion, Smash and Persona 5.

 

[Teeb147]

But I don't like Cloud either. So there's that to consider. You where around when I complained about his inclusion, you should probably know. In fact, Joker is just Cloud all over, except without Final Fantasy having it's actual roots in Nintendo.

I didn't know ALTUS made Nintendo exclusives. But then again, Persona 5 is still Playstation exclusive.

But yeah, it's the Cloud situation all over. He isn't as balantly OP as Cloud was in Smash 4 however, so I forgive him. Then again, Cloud was also probably massively voted for on the ballot. I doubt Joker was...

As many have said, Shin Megami Tensei started on nintendo consoles. Persona is still considered to be part of that series, so even if Persona has been mostly exclusive on playstation, it has roots on nintendo. It's a classic series really.

It might not be as popular as Final Fantasy, but it's a pretty similar situation besides that. Even if you dont like cloud being in, you're a minority with that.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't really care what think about Joker or Cloud. That's subjective and meaningless to argue.

As for Joker not having any Nintendo ties, I can argue that Persona is rooted in Shin Megami Tensei, which started as and still a Nintendo exclusive. ATLUS (not ALTUS) do have strong connections with Nintendo, even though that probably wasn't the main reason why Joker was picked. And Persona 5 has a spin-off coming to Switch.

We didn't know how well Joker did in the ballot, but Smash Ballot is not the only way to measure a character's popularity. Seeing how much hype his reveal and release caused, it's probably fair to say that he was very popular. Not Cloud levels of popular, but popular enough to make a lot of people excited for his inclusion, Smash and Persona 5.

I mean to be fair the ballot was in 2015. Not sure about it's Japanese release but P5 was released in 2017 for the west so it's very unlikely Joker would have gotten idk, 10 votes. Then again considering how most people reacted to Joker's inclusion this isn't necessarily a bad thing

 

[osby]

I mean to be fair the ballot was in 2015. Not sure about it's Japanese release but P5 was released in 2017 for the west so it's very unlikely Joker would have gotten idk, 10 votes. Then again considering how most people reacted to Joker's inclusion this isn't necessarily a bad thing

Haha, my bad, I completely mixed up the dates. But yeah, doesn't change how the ballot isn't all and end all.

 

[Teeb147]

I mean to be fair the ballot was in 2015. Not sure about it's Japanese release but P5 was released in 2017 for the west so it's very unlikely Joker would have gotten idk, 10 votes. Then again considering how most people reacted to Joker's inclusion this isn't necessarily a bad thing

Yeah if there were any votes it'd been for p4 or p3 characters.
Nintendo doesn't just look at old votes for characters. They've got their own ideas going too. And that's not a bad thing.

 

[Izanagi97]

As many have said, Shin Megami Tensei started on nintendo consoles. Persona is still considered to be part of that series, so even if Persona has been mostly exclusive on playstation, it has roots on nintendo. It's a classic series really.

It might not be as popular as Final Fantasy, but it's a pretty similar situation besides that. Even if you dont like cloud being in, you're a minority with that.

That and, as said earlier, Shin Megami Tensei pretty much started the Monster Collecting RPG (Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Story came out in 1987). Does make it funny when people think SMT is "Pokemon for Adults" when it would be more accurate to say that Pokemon is "Kid Friendly SMT"

 

[Cutie Gwen]

By the way, if any of you people complaining about Joker 'promoting the enemy' or whatnot want Banjo Kazooie then you really need to reconsider your priorities. Sure, Banjo USED to be a Nintendo character but now he's fully owned by Microsoft. I don't know about you but I think that's more anti-Nintendo than a character who is owned by a company that only makes games

 

[Arcadenik]

Just give me more third-party characters with close ties to Nintendo history, the closer the better.

• Banjo-Kazooie with N64 designs
• Tetris blocks with Game Boy designs
• Dragon Quest heroes and slimes
• Scorpion and Sub-Zero with original trilogy designs (the 90s games are the best)
• SNK mascot Terry Bogard (we got a lot of Neo Geo games on the original Wii and now Switch)

 

[Deleted member]

This is funnier than the conspiracy theory about Sakurai hating to work with DK stuff in Ultimate due to the abscense of the Returns stage.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

The star power of the character being added, the potential for profit, and the gameplay potential is what matters for 3rd parties.

Sakurai himself has spoken on this “Nintendo relationship” and has specified it as nothing more than “a courtesy”. He’s also mentioned that he looks for characters that can do something others can’t, and bring personality to the game.

Every single 3rd party character that Sakurai has picked has achieved each of those things.

If you want 3rd parties that “have Nintendo history”, then that’s fine. I completely disagree with you, but that’s fine. Just be aware that instead of having gaming icons like Solid Snake, Cloud, or getting future picks from top of the line series like Resident Evil, you’ll be getting C-Tier 3rd parties that aren’t nearly as iconic either from those same companies, or basically Nintendo exclusive 3rd parties that won’t bring in nearly as much profit, like Professor Layton (no offense to his fans, but there’s a clear distinction).

Smash is what it is today because of the way Sakurai and his team have constructed the roster. I wouldn’t have it any other way.