Japanese Tier List by SHI-G March '15 (Version 1.0.2)

[stancosmos]

This tier list uses 1111 miis. I'm pretty sure Dapuffster was using Helicopter Kick and other customs. In the last Japanese tier list with customs for miis Brawler was top tier. I'm pretty sure they changed to 1111 because of Apex.

oh gotcha, yeah i thought dapuffster was confined to those same rules. Maybe not though.

 

[Doruge]

So 90% of tier lists are bad?

That would be an understatement.

 

[Jigglymaster]

1111 Mii Brawler is trash and he's lucky to be as high as he is in this tier list.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Consensus bad characters (shared in bottom 13) 7/13, less strong consensus:

Did you miscount here or something? Palutena isn't bottom 13 on SHI-G's tier list, she's 19th from the bottom. Barely bottom 20.

 

[Xygonn]

Did you miscount here or something? Palutena isn't bottom 13 on SHI-G's tier list, she's 19th from the bottom. Barely bottom 20.

Good catch! Yeah, I made a mistake.

 

[ShortcutButton]

I originally had alot of gripes, but alot can be blamed on the Japanese meta being much different to ours. These 2 can't:

Palutena being high w/o customs. You're using 1111s with Miis, right?

Clones being in different tiers. Marios get a pass, but at least put Pit/Pittoo and Marth/Lucina in the same tier. They're the same character.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

I originally had alot of gripes, but alot can be blamed on the Japanese meta being much different to ours. These 2 can't:

Palutena being high w/o customs. You're using 1111s with Miis, right?

Clones being in different tiers. Marios get a pass, but at least put Pit/Pittoo and Marth/Lucina in the same tier. They're the same character.

Have you not considered that maybe Palutena's just better than you think? Haha~

Also, the clones being in different tiers makes sense as they aren't exactly the same. Pit and Dark Pit have slightly different matchups because of the way their arrows and arms work. For instance, Electroshock Arm is better for killing Luma because of the angle it sends at, whereas Upperdash Arm is better for killing people outright since it knocks opponents vertically. Not to mention that Dark Pit's F-tilt is weaker than Pit's for whatever reason.

And while Lucina lacking tippers may not seem like much, it actually makes a world of difference. Marth's tippers provide him with extra safety against shields due to the damage they deal (which affects shieldstun). Marth's tippers are also very powerful. For example, tipper F-smash can kill Bowser at around 50% near the ledge. Lucina doesn't get any of that with no extra benefit of her own besides very slightly increased damage output compared to Marth's sourspots.

 

[chipndip]

But it can be done, and that's all that matters.

Actually, you're understating what I said for the objective fact of "possible". Improbable plays a HUGE factor in what one does or doesn't do in a game.

 

[megel]

nice sonic is an a tier

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I am okay with this tier list, but some thing I personally would change:

Kirby up higher (seriously underrated, he is in perfect spot in the SWF tier list).
Falco up (He is decent)
Luigi up (top 10)

 

[Solo Popo]

I disagree with so much of this tier list I don't even know where to start, except to say that there is no way Link is D tier this time around.

 

[Waymas]

Yay for Wario! ;3

 

[Fatmanonice]

I would like to see the reasoning behind some of these especially since they differ so much from the proposed American ones. There seems to be a lot of agreement for the best and worst characters though. The explanations that interest me the most are Villager, Dedede, Little Mac, and Palutena given how they are much higher than what most Western tier lists are putting them at. For example, as someone who regularly plays as Dedede, he struggles against most people with reliable projectiles but, then again, I also know that the Japanese have much different basic foundation for playstyles too.

 

[Soul.]

Suddenly this thread has lots of users watching it. What.
Some characters would be "top tier" material if they allowed customs. I don't think Diddy needs to be on his own tier; he's not Brawl MK. Sheik seems like S material to me.

 

[CryoGX]

I always refer to the Eventhubs tier list (spoiler alert: Diddy's been #3 on this list for a while now) when I want an "accurate" representation of things around here.This list is fueled and actively updated by many people, and most of the people who vote don't seem to be trolling for the sake of their character, so those few who do do that won't affect the board that much.

This tier list is pretty intriguing, and there are some things that I wouldn't agree with personally, but there's a completely different meta, as well as some of the points that I'm going to be making below.

Here are some things that I personally try to remain aware of (These points aren't directed toward anyone in this thread; they're just on tier lists in general):

Spoiler

-Tier lists dictate relative viability of a character; they don't dictate how well you will do with a character.

-They're affected by the local meta, as made incredibly obvious by this thread. Differing local playstyles will yield different lists.

-Tier lists are never completely accurate nor is my or your representation/idea 100% accurate either*. (This is why I prefer a list that a lot of people affect such as Eventhubs' which still isn't perfect.)

-*In tandem with the previous point, don't try to force everyone to think like you with your placements. Opinions are encouraged and supporting certain characters is fine; I'm just saying don't get radical with it. (I didn't read anything like this in this thread but I've seen things such as people assuming that they're indisputably right about something) You won't get it exactly right unless you know every little technique with all 50 characters and how each one affects each other character.

-Do not play or like a character based on their tier alone. Play who you like; there's a low chance that they'll be significantly changed ever unless it's an exploit according to Sakurai. (I personally main Sonic and secondary Kirby) One of the top people at APEX was an Olimar.

I personally wanted to share all of these points because I've had experiences of seeing people trying to force their opinions of characters onto others and utterly flaming some tier lists and acting based on the tier list alone, not just in Smash, but in several other games that I've played that've had tier lists. I'm posting this here as a way for me to slightly vent, get my own opinion out, as well as help prevent people from being too radical with their opinions. Assuming that that doesn't happen, I wouldn't mind criticism/opinions on my own perspective on tier lists.

 

[Incendiary]

I'm guessing yoshis place really high in Japan? I know there aren't many in the usa, correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, yoshis placing is way too high, it doesn't matter how good you think he is. Where are the tournament results to back this?

 

[cree318]

As a Villager main, I feel like there's no way he should be higher than characters like Pika or Fox. He's definitley a good character who has a unique gameplay style, but he requires some hard reads and/or gimps to really stand a chance against higher tiered characters.

Also, they obviously haven't seen Boss's Luigi.

 

[Meek Moths]

tier is good. fortunately, being low tier in smash 4 is no as bad as low tier in brawl or melee. like when you look at brawl ganon matchups on smashwiki and there are colors and ganons matchups are all red (red means disadvantage), but here even the low tiers matchups are not that horrible against higher tiered chars. ganin was all red because all matchups were like -4 but here even the low tier people do well. generally, they just fail hard against toppest of top toer

 

[Volimutt]

Mmmm I don't mind where my Bowser is. Show's he's balance. Not bull**** OP but not under powered~

 

[Myran]

People still don't know Olimar...

 

[M@v]

Ok, I'll approach this by saying both the GOOD and the BAD. Because there's things I both like and don't like about this list

GOOD:
-I agree with 8/10 of the top 10 characters. I may move one here or there (such as not putting diddy in his own tier and moving rosaluma above yoshi/sonic) but the characters that need to be in the top 10 are there for the most part. Wario and Villager are the two I don't think belong. Mario/Luigi would be my 2 choices to put into the top 10 over them.

-Ganon and below with the exception of Marth/Lucina. all those characters I feel belong down that far in the list currently; honestly i cant even contest DK down outside the 2 I mentioned.

-I can get behind the sonic top 5 hype train for sure.

BAD:
-Marth and Lucina. I can't figure this one out no matter how hard I try. They are right next to each other, which is right, but 3rd/2nd worst in the game? Absolutely ridiculous. They still have good range, high kill power, and decent recoveries. Both are good at juggling. Where they lose their top tier edge from the other games is their increases in lag and range differences. Fair ending lag is the one that hurts the most. Still, this drops them to around (based on your list's tiers) C: Mid-low/Low. They are mediocre characters that aren't awful, but are not going to be going toe to toe with the best characters in the game outside of one or two exceptions.

-Little Mac. I can't fathom how he is this high. If anything, I think he's lucky to be above bottom 5 in this game, and should be down in that area. If you think that's harsh, maybe, MAYBE bottom 10. Hes the worst character in smash history offstage with the possible exception of 64 link. Not only that, even though Mac has super armor on his grounded smashes, he has a lot of roy zones on them, and they are laggy at the end, making them very easy to punish. His aerial game is bad outside of nair, and he has no real answers to camping near the ledge. He's just as bad at getting juggled as he is offstage too. Get him in the air, and he can airdodge, counter, nair, dair, or charge b when falling down. And those aren't all good options, just options that may remotely make sense. I still strongly believe little mac is trash, and that's a word I don't use when I refer to characters often, and should in the bottom tiers of all tier lists.

-I think Shulk is up more towards Greninja and Lucario,as I think all 3 of those characters are close to each other in ability and potential. I also think that tier should be swapped with the one above it (the one with dhd pit and pac).

-Mii gunner should be the other low tier besides little mac to replace marth/lucina.

I can make more positive and negative remarks about every spot, but I would be here for hours ;_;. Marth/Lucina and Mac were the two big no nos to me I had to bring up, and the fairly good accuracy of the top 10 is the big yes I wanted to emphasize. I really like the characters in it sans Wario and Villager. And the two I'd replace them with aren't that much farther down your list.

 

[Katy Parry]

I thought Zelda was like, number 16 or something. Huh.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

I'm really digging this tier list! Villager seems a little high, and I'm not sure what Duck Hunt Dog is doing in the middle of Pit and Dark Pit. Marth is still forever too low, and how is Greninja not at least B tier!? Awesome tier list though, most accurate one I've seen so far.

 

[Pureownege75]

Wow that event hubs tier list has a bunch of my mains close to the bottom, but the Japanese one has them very high up. The meta is still forming though of course

 

[Meek Moths]

Ok, I'll approach this by saying both the GOOD and the BAD. Because there's things I both like and don't like about this list

GOOD:
-I agree with 8/10 of the top 10 characters. I may move one here or there (such as not putting diddy in his own tier and moving rosaluma above yoshi/sonic) but the characters that need to be in the top 10 are there for the most part. Wario and Villager are the two I don't think belong. Mario/Luigi would be my 2 choices to put into the top 10 over them.

-Ganon and below with the exception of Marth/Lucina. all those characters I feel belong down that far in the list currently; honestly i cant even contest DK down outside the 2 I mentioned.

-I can get behind the sonic top 5 hype train for sure.

BAD:
-Marth and Lucina. I can't figure this one out no matter how hard I try. They are right next to each other, which is right, but 3rd/2nd worst in the game? Absolutely ridiculous. They still have good range, high kill power, and decent recoveries. Both are good at juggling. Where they lose their top tier edge from the other games is their increases in lag and range differences. Fair ending lag is the one that hurts the most. Still, this drops them to around (based on your list's tiers) C: Mid-low/Low. They are mediocre characters that aren't awful, but are not going to be going toe to toe with the best characters in the game outside of one or two exceptions.

-Little Mac. I can't fathom how he is this high. If anything, I think he's lucky to be above bottom 5 in this game, and should be down in that area. If you think that's harsh, maybe, MAYBE bottom 10. Hes the worst character in smash history offstage with the possible exception of 64 link. Not only that, even though Mac has super armor on his grounded smashes, he has a lot of roy zones on them, and they are laggy at the end, making them very easy to punish. His aerial game is bad outside of nair, and he has no real answers to camping near the ledge. He's just as bad at getting juggled as he is offstage too. Get him in the air, and he can airdodge, counter, nair, dair, or charge b when falling down. And those aren't all good options, just options that may remotely make sense. I still strongly believe little mac is trash, and that's a word I don't use when I refer to characters often, and should in the bottom tiers of all tier lists.

-I think Shulk is up more towards Greninja and Lucario,as I think all 3 of those characters are close to each other in ability and potential. I also think that tier should be swapped with the one above it (the one with dhd pit and pac).

-Mii gunner should be the other low tier besides little mac to replace marth/lucina.

I can make more positive and negative remarks about every spot, but I would be here for hours ;_;. Marth/Lucina and Mac were the two big no nos to me I had to bring up, and the fairly good accuracy of the top 10 is the big yes I wanted to emphasize. I really like the characters in it sans Wario and Villager. And the two I'd replace them with aren't that much farther down your list.

how can you think mac is so bad? mac on ground is like brawl metaknigt power level thats no joke so once you encounter a good mac you gonna change your tune

 

[Jakeplusplus]

Why is Charizard always so low on tier lists? I don't play him a ton, but he seems to have pretty mid-tier kit to me.

 

[M@v]

how can you think mac is so bad? mac on ground is like brawl metaknigt power level thats no joke so once you encounter a good mac you gonna change your tune

I have a lot of experience vs Little Macs of all skill levels, so I have a very good read on the character's abilities.
I've played Alphicans in tournament at APEX (He got 4th in that 1600 person online tourney with little mac/diddy) and MVD online (got 8th at APEX with Duck Hunt Dog/Mac). I've also played countless other little macs on Anthers Ladder, Nintendo Dojo, and For Glory. Lastly, I was a little mac player myself from 3ds release until about the new year (Wii U included).

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I'm not going to hold my breath on this list yet. This tier list is based on their meta as others have said, and while other people keep on calling out placements for certain characters, our own tier lists are not completely accurate either. The fact is is that both cultures can agree on how good or bad certain characters are with the extremes of Diddy and Mii Swordfighter. The tier lists for both countries are still changing bit by bit in the middle. Who knows if they will agree with most of us on Dedede or the other way around. It is an interesting list without a doubt. Now all I can do is represent my mains.

 

[Manny]

Someone show me videos of Yoshi high level play, give me results of a Yoshi placing top 8 or top 3 in a stacked tournament.

 

[Fig Newton]

I think it only makes sense that the Japanese tier list differs from the American/Western tier list simply because the players and style between the two regions are vastly different. We should note that a tier list doesn't mean anything. Any "bad" character can win any tournament under the right hands. It just shows that in Japan, at least, certain characters are being used more in Japan compared to the characters we use in the West.

 

[Xuan Wu]

*sniff* I guess not even Ike's buffs from the version update were enough for him to escape bottom tier in Japan...

At least he's not seen as the worst character now. ^-^

 

[Sinister Slush]

Wasn't this Shi-gaming tier list found like around a week or two ago?
I faintly remember quoting it in the competitive impressions thread and saying indefinitely that Yoshi is not Top 3 and that almost every single video uploaded on their own YT channel is Yoshi mains losing.

As far as tournament results I'll say the same thing, or rather, quote it since I found it while typing this post.

Japan must be purposely hiding some secret Messiah Yoshi main over there to think he's above the likes of Sonic ZSS Rosalina Pika etc. along with posting nothing but losing matches of Yoshi out of like 15+ sets uploaded on 3 or so different Japanese channels.

That's my only guess at this point honestly...

 

[Atrabilious]

I just genuinely struggle to understand why they think Marcina is so low.

I'm fully aware of the fact that Marth isn't the wrecking ball he once was and was walloped with the nerf bat, but I just can't get my head around the idea of Marth being lower ranked than the likes of WFT, Palutena, Kirby & Zelda, especially in a non-customs environment. Lucina is always going to trail behind Marth, but still...

I find the placement of DeDeDe interesting. With his large hurtbox, bad manoeuvring ability and the fact he just gets eaten alive by anyone with a half decent projectile game I'm surprised they rate him that high. Are there many prominent D3 players in the Japanese scene that do well?

 

[Xiao-Xiao]

I think it's sad how much Ayuha/SHI-G do to expose Japanese metagame to the westerners and people still have not a clue who their players are unless they come to apex. How Does a Yoshi main not know who Yoshidora is lol.

 

[Sinister Slush]

How Does a Yoshi main not know who Yoshidora is lol.

I know who Yoshidora Aiba etc. are.
The problem is their matches are mostly losses still and because all we see over here is the YT videos, we have no idea what placing they actually get.

How're we to tell if they get their winners bracket matches only recorded, but climb from say Winners of Round 3 (losing that) and going all the way to 4th/5th placings but they never record those matches from the rest of their loser's matches, only loser's finals/grand finals.

I tend to namedrop Gheb a lot cause he's the only one posting the Tokyo/japan results on smashboards.

 

[BlazGreen]

I actually agree more with this tier list than the community one although I'm very surprised to see Wario so high up there.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I can't believe Zelda is above Marth.

Something about that is absolutely hilarious.

She makes Marth cry. Zelda has decent range and intercepting options. It's also very easy to Elevator-KO any Fair happy character. One wrong spacing decision and bam boom, straight to the moon with a nightmarish face.

 

[Soul.]

I wonder why is Pika B. Most people think it's a top tier character so it's weird to see it on B.
Also wait what Fox is A-.

 

[ZeldaMaster]

Wow, Japan says that Fire Emblem is now the new Hyrule tier? Shame.

 

[I_Fight_For_My_Friends]

I'm sorry, but since when is Marth bottom tier? I know he was nerfed, but bottom tier seems a little harsh. He's still got that Fair, Nair, Uair, and Dair for some nice combos. He isn't Marth from Melee, Brawl, or PM, but he's not bottom tier. I'd see him at mid tier.