Japanese Tier List by SHI-G March '15 (Version 1.0.2)

[Diddy Kong]

i guess you think melee pichu is also underrated. and brawl ganon too. xd

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Come at me bro.

 

[[OCK]LLama]

Right.

Which is why I'll have to win enough times to overthrow the entire tier list.

You got it, that's the ARMADA right mentality!

 

[Lil Puddin]

Zelda is pretty bad, unfortunately

She's one of my favourite characters, but I just don't find her worth playing at all with her current design. A slow character with only good out of shield options and mediocre everything else... I'm afraid that nothing short of significant changes to Zeldas moveset or considerable speed buffs will make her better.

My win rate as a Zeldoo main is 85% and I'm not even a super srs player. The only way you'd be bad as Zeldoo is by:
Camping
Not being aggressive
Not grabbing whenever possible
Being awful with sweetspots
Not utilizing her amazing off stage presence
Not utilizing her scary edge guard options
Forgetting Farore's Wind is ridiculous as a ko option or tool
Rolling/aerial dodging instead of spacing
Staying in shield forever like half the FG players

She would be better with faster and farther lateral air movement speed and a movement speed increase. But as a character she is very solid. Unfortunately, playing her is not as easy as playing a brain dead characters such as Yoshi. Zelda requires a smart player who can read at all times, since a solid read scores you KOs on characters around 50%-80%.

She is also top tier in teams. So if you really suck at reading, you can 2v2 with her and carry a mediocre teammate too. Yay!

 

[DavemanCozy]

My win rate as a Zeldoo main is 85% and I'm not even a super srs player. The only way you'd be bad as Zeldoo is by:
Camping
Not being aggressive
Not grabbing whenever possible
Being awful with sweetspots
Not utilizing her amazing off stage presence
Not utilizing her scary edge guard options
Forgetting Farore's Wind is ridiculous as a ko option or tool
Rolling/aerial dodging instead of spacing
Staying in shield forever like half the FG players

She would be better with faster and farther lateral air movement speed and a movement speed increase. But as a character she is very solid. Unfortunately, playing her is not as easy as playing a brain dead characters such as Yoshi. Zelda requires a smart player who can read at all times, since a solid read scores you KOs on characters around 50%-80%.

She is also top tier in teams. So if you really suck at reading, you can 2v2 with her and carry a mediocre teammate too. Yay!

I agree that Zelda becomes much better in 2v2, where her defensive options and controlled hitboxes can be effective at supporting and aiding her partner's approaches. I can certainly see her playing a decent role in that environment with her out of sheild options and her hitboxes not disrupting her teammate. I also agree that camping with Zelda is a bad idea, as her projectiles don't allow for that properly. Buffs to her movement in the ground and air would be blessings for her. But as it stands, her movement is awful and it really limits her.

I disagree with the rest. Zelda is far from a solid character.

Her movement is very, very bad for her to play a proper aggressive game. She has limited approach options, her projectiles are not effective for doing this. Spacing with Zelda is very hard read-focused, and her movement being so bad doesn't let her adjust her position properly to utilize her range.

Farore's Wind is very powerful, but also very predictable and easy to react to. Missing a Farore's Wind leaves Zelda open to get punished.

I disagree about her offstage presence being amazing. It's ok at best. Her poor movement does not allow her to utilize her neutral options (Lightning toes, D-air, etc) to truly make them scary offstage options. Din's Fire and the Phantom are alright, but not enough. An airdodge easily avoids the blast of Din's Fire. It would be better if she could punish the air dodge, but the move has too much ending lag after she sets the explosion off to go offstage and punish the air dodge (and again, her movement won't allow her to get there in time). The Phantom also has endlag and the charge can't be saved up: it's again a very predictable move, it's range being its saving grace. Failing an edge-guard with Zelda also leaves her floatiness offstage, giving up stage control. It's better to utilize her edge-guard options onstage instead, which are scary but still mediocre as they are quite punishable, this again being her terrible mobility not letting her weave away from her opponent to put proper safe distance between herself.

The few good things about Zelda that I see are out of shield options and ok frame traps: Farore's Wind, Nayrus Love to escape pressure, D-smash, U-smash, D-tilt, N-air, among others. All these moves have their uses and certainly make Zelda seem like a character who plays a good defensive game by reacting to her opponent. The problem is Zelda cannot force opponents to approach her or make mistakes for her to properly utilize these tools effectively.

Win rates in For Glory don't matter. Online and in friendlies, players will run at Zelda because playing Smash Bros is fun. What have I got to lose? But in tournament, when there is money on the line, no good tournament player is going to be approaching a character with good defensive Out of Shield options when everything else she has is mediocre, especially when she has no way of forcing approaches herself and her own approach is poor.

When I look at Zelda, I see the intention of her design being a defensive character. In application, however, her moveset is flawed. In fact, her entire character design has been flawed since Melee. As long as Zelda keeps playing the same way, no matter how many Smash Bros games are made, she will never be a good character no matter how many buffs she gets to her moves. The only things that will make Zelda a good character would be a significant speed buffs, improvements to her mobility, or a complete re-haul to her moveset.

 

[Troykv]

^ Basically, that Zelda stop being a bad character she should stop being "Zelda"

 

[DavemanCozy]

^ Basically, that Zelda stop being a bad character she should stop being "Zelda"

Yeah, basically. It's harsh, but the truth is the moveset she has is cool in theory, but poor in application.

While I'm not a huge fan of Project M, the Zelda in that game is a perfect example of a re-haul to her moveset that she needed without drasically changing her: Din's Fire actually controls space well, Farore's Wind gives her mobility options, and Nayru's love is safer as a "get-off-me" move and reflector. She would need something like that to make her a more effective character.

 

[M@v]

^ I miss 3.0.2 Zelda

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

And that's precisely the reason why this list is flawed beyond belief. A list based solely on tournament results is always gonna be flawed. I don't have to prove it, others already are. Look at Boss, he takes Xanadu almost every week.
While Mario is an extremely good character, he is not as good as, nor better, than Luigi. I hate to sound like somebody else, but Luigi has better matchups all around. While Mario's aerial mobility is faster, his aerials don't string together as well as Luigi's. Mario does not have better range than Luigi, and even if he did it wouldn't be saying much since both of them have ****ty range. Mario's grab game is good, but Luigi's surpasses Mario's in that some of his grabs can be guarenteed kill setups. And by some I mean down throw. Luigi also has a better offstage and defensive game due to his back air which kills at like, 90%, Frame 2 Neutral air, down air spike, Cyclone spike, better spacing with Fireballs, and even more I could name but won't.

The use of tier list is not flawed. It's just based on tournament results. Characters move up and down the tier list based on their placing in tournaments; it does not dictate your skill with a character. I don't see what's so hard to grasp here.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well, mostly tournament results. Match up theory usually plays a role in it too as some characters seem to be bumped/dunked based on their assumed potential or lack of. Still, I agree on not understanding when people become personally offended by tier lists as if it's the end all for whether they should use a character or not.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The use of tier list is not flawed. It's just based on tournament results. Characters move up and down the tier list based on their placing in tournaments; it does not dictate your skill with a character. I don't see what's so hard to grasp here.

Because it's a horrible way to judge how good a character is. You could be the best character in the game, but if nobody uses you in tournaments, then you're going to be trash tier. It's more of a popularity contest than anything. It's not just this type of tier list though, all tiers are bull****, but that's for another time.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Because it's a horrible way to judge how good a character is. You could be the best character in the game, but if nobody uses you in tournaments, then you're going to be trash tier. It's more of a popularity contest than anything. It's not just this type of tier list though, all tiers are bull****, but that's for another time.

It's fairly easy to assume that most players, professional or not, have played with all of the characters in a competitive environment. Not judging the characters, but based on experience, it's pretty easy to see that a character like Zelda can't be better than Diddy Kong or Sheik. Just saying, dude.

 

[TheYoungLinkSociety]

All my mains are in the Japan's D teir. Japan what did I ever do to you?

 

[Altea77]

being able to win with yur favorite character does not make her top tier (mid tier in this case)

That's not necessarily true. If you go out and win Evo with Charizard, he will no doubt rise on the list.


As for this list, Marth is not 3rd last. I'm sorry but he's not. He's bad, yes. His neutral game is trash, yes. But there are others who are worse. Marth isn't the only bad character, and he's not the worst of them.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Marth would be higher tier if he would get his counter phrases back.

 

[willthunder]

Ness is high tier so it looks good to me

 

[Xermo]

You could be the best character in the game, but if nobody uses you in tournaments, then you're going to be trash tier. It's more of a popularity contest than anything.

If you were the best character, people would use you. Don't see why the concept is so hard for you to grasp. I mean, it's not like people actually play this game or anything; everyone just mains their favs, right.

 

[[OCK]LLama]

Right.

Which is why I'll have to win enough times to overthrow the entire tier list.

You got it, that's the ARMADA right mentality!

That's not necessarily true. If you go out and win Evo with Charizard, he will no doubt rise on the list.


As for this list, Marth is not 3rd last. I'm sorry but he's not. He's bad, yes. His neutral game is trash, yes. But there are others who are worse. Marth isn't the only bad character, and he's not the worst of them.

Not meaning to come off as rude but when did opinions become objective? lol. That's my problem with 50% of people who say they are critics of this list, the only reason they really dislike it is because their main/secondary is really low or something.

Think of all the Japanese Marths that are doing well in Japan, let alone international level or TOP Japan Level. Then think of what region this tier list is based of

You now have your reasoning. Also 50%+ of people commenting here aren't even playing on Japanese rule set or anything of the sort, so I don't understand how this affects you, even if you were, a tier list has never been a deciding factor to what character can win in tour if you are skilled enough. The amount of time it would take to get top level fundamentals for a tour, the game becomes more about player vs player mental interactions and MU knowledge more than tier placement

(and no I do not disprove or dislike tiers, I am not one of those guys, I just happen to think a lot of this criticism is very much so unwarranted)

 

[MarioMeteor]

If you were the best character, people would use you. Don't see why the concept is so hard for you to grasp. I mean, it's not like people actually play this game or anything; everyone just mains their favs, right.

Not necessarily. Not everyone is Zero and is going to main a character just cause he's good.

It's fairly easy to assume that most players, professional or not, have played with all of the characters in a competitive environment. Not judging the characters, but based on experience, it's pretty easy to see that a character like Zelda can't be better than Diddy Kong or Sheik. Just saying, dude.

That's not a good assumption to make at all.

 

[Altea77]

You got it, that's the ARMADA right mentality!

Not meaning to come off as rude but when did opinions become objective? lol. That's my problem with 50% of people who say they are critics of this list, the only reason they really dislike it is because their main/secondary is really low or something.

Think of all the Japanese Marths that are doing well in Japan, let alone international level or TOP Japan Level. Then think of what region this tier list is based of

You now have your reasoning. Also 50%+ of people commenting here aren't even playing on Japanese rule set or anything of the sort, so I don't understand how this affects you, even if you were, a tier list has never been a deciding factor to what character can win in tour if you are skilled enough. The amount of time it would take to get top level fundamentals for a tour, the game becomes more about player vs player mental interactions and MU knowledge more than tier placement

(and no I do not disprove or dislike tiers, I am not one of those guys, I just happen to think a lot of this criticism is very much so unwarranted)

Except I gave reason for my opinion. I acknowledged Marth's weaknesses and made a claim that he is not the only one with strong weaknesses, as many seem to be forgetting. Now until I provide evidence of other characters having similar problems, or even worse problems, despite how probable it is, my reasoning is not fully sound, but it is still much more than a petty cry of uneducated bias, as which you seem to be accusing me.

Also, slightly different rule sets don't affect tiers that much.

I did not say anything about Marth's tournament viability, and I am aware how high level play works, thank you. I am simply contending his 3rd to last placement on this list because I feel it's incorrect, and that's what we do here. When we see something that's wrong, we correct it. The point of tier lists is to get the characters in the right spots.

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

Lucina is that low because..?

 

[Troykv]

Lucina is that low because..?

Basically, she is a inferior version of Marth

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

That's not a good assumption to make at all.

At this point, it's no longer an assumption.

 

[Meek Moths]

Basically, she is a inferior version of Marth

hmm well, in the long run, the only significant differencesbetween them are fmash and usmash, because when marth tippers those, they kill very early. but lucinas fsmash is actually pretty powerful by itself and is also very quick, and kills early too

 

[MarioMeteor]

At this point, it's no longer an assumption.

You want to assume that every Smasher has played all 52 characters competitively? Am I missing something? Am I being Punked?

 

[PhantomTriforce]

I actually like this tier list a lot. Though I don't think the tiers should go all the way to E, I think the game is more balanced than that.

 

[Altea77]

Basically, she is a inferior version of Marth

Yes, she's worse than Marth, but why is she last??? (Besides mii swordsman) That goes for Marth too.

They also shouldn't be right next to each other. Marth is much better than her, but this list acts like they are almost equal, which is another reason why this list shouldnt't be taken very seriously.

 

[Defex]

Only 2 placements I truly disagree with from my experiences.
Kirby and Meta Knight should be switched IMO

 

[Xiao-Xiao]

You guys crying in this thread as if Japan really cares about your complaints lol. Until a top level player IN JAPAN does well with Marth or Lucina or whatever other unjustified low tier you see on this list, it's not going to change. All your theorycrafting doesn't amount to much of anything lol

 

[Meek Moths]

You guys crying in this thread as if Japan really cares about your complaints lol. Until a top level player IN JAPAN does well with Marth or Lucina or whatever other unjustified low tier you see on this list, it's not going to change. All your theorycrafting doesn't amount to much of anything lol

but pointless complaining is the purpose of this forum you baka

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

You guys crying in this thread as if Japan really cares about your complaints lol. Until a top level player IN JAPAN does well with Marth or Lucina or whatever other unjustified low tier you see on this list, it's not going to change. All your theorycrafting doesn't amount to much of anything lol

I'm pretty sure that everyone realized that already. They have a right to voice their opinions. Plus, Looking at a different tier list also helps some people put things into perspective.

 

[stancosmos]

Wow that event hubs tier list has a bunch of my mains close to the bottom, but the Japanese one has them very high up. The meta is still forming though of course

event hubs is the worst tier list i've ever seen in my life. If coming in 2nd at apex (olimar) doesn't move someone out of bottom tier, than the list is just trash, Plus pac man in the bottom 5 makes no god damn sense.. Plus the amount of top level Luigi players should indicate how useful he is (False,Boss,etc..). I find it weird that this seemingly wasn't a consideration in the Event Hubs tier list or this new japanese tier list.

Side note:
People need to let go of the idea that a nerfed character is a bad character. If this was the first ever smash game, Marth/MetaKnight would be much higher on the tier list. But since he was better in another game people can see that their swords are shorter and now their "awful". The same thing happened to Greninja too. He's still a very good character but since he got nerfed, people think he's bad. People are forgetting that these characters were all Nerfed out of A or S tier, not D tier, they are very slightly worse than a version of themselves that was considered the best or one of the best in the game. MetaKnight is way too slept on in this reason, of course hes nerfed from brawl, he had to be. That doesn't make him bad, that just means hes no longer S++ tier.

 

[Troykv]

Personally I think Marth is better than Zelda and Lizardon, the rest I'm not sure

 

[LancerStaff]

Also, slightly different rule sets don't affect tiers that much.

No, but when everybody picks FD like it was SV over there, it's pretty easy to see how that'd effect certain characters. Like Marth here. He has no platforms to hit people off of or to use to hide from projectiles. He's an already meh character further drug down by the stage choice. Shulk and Robin are hurt for similar reasons.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You want to assume that every Smasher has played all 52 characters competitively? Am I missing something? Am I being Punked?

No, you are just riding the delusion that this games cast is balanced and that every character stands a chance, when it's false. Stop twisting my words, you know that I'm talking about competitive players. There are thousands of people who play smash on a competitive level, the odds of players not playing with everyone is low.

I could waste my time with theories and scenarios in which X character can fall short, but it wouldn't prove anything since practice and theory are on entirely different spectrums. I'm stating a fact: if you have two players of equal skill playing ( one being Sheik, and one being Zelda), the Sheik will win, simply because Sheik has all the tools to dictate the pace of a match up. Speed, projectiles, aerials with little to no landing lag, and moves that can be coverted into combos and frame traps, where Zelda is a character who MUST wait for the opponent to make a mistake. Now, when you are both on stage, what sounds like a solid strategy, waiting for an opening, or making your own? Being rewarded with a combo or conversion from your hit, or gaining nothing? Being able to safely go off stage and net a kill, or waiting for my opponent to recover? This is the reality of the match up in a lot of instances. And sure, you have some great players like Nairo who can beat the upper echelon of the cast with lower tier characters like Zelda, but that's just an experienced and smart player playing against worse players; it happens more often than you think, but when he's playing against better or equally skilled players he picks Zero Suit Samus. There is a reason why you don't see him play with her in Grand Finals, and the reasons I mentioned are precisely why.

I know you are being optimistic here, and perhaps there is something that may be able to help the characters combat these onslaught of overpowered characters, but since this game is cut and dry for the most part, and experimentation with custom moves / equipment is questionable in this phase of the games cycle, there is little that can help other than a potential balance patch for the game (which is a poisonous mentality to have when characters should be balanced to the point that adapting to the opponent should be key) to fix any disadvantages a character may have , but if anything it's just going to be a nerf to a characters advantage, which is a bad form of balance in my opinion.

Personally, I have never lost to a Zelda in this game so Far, not even in a Zelda ditto.

 

[MarioMeteor]

No, you are just riding the delusion that this games cast is balanced and that every character stands a chance, when it's false. Stop twisting my words, you know that I'm talking about competitive players. There are thousands of people who play smash on a competitive level, the odds of players not playing with everyone is low.

I could waste my time with theories and scenarios in which X character can fall short, but it wouldn't prove anything since practice and theory are on entirely different spectrums. I'm stating a fact: if you have two players of equal skill playing ( one being Sheik, and one being Zelda), the Sheik will win, simply because Sheik has all the tools to dictate the pace of a match up. Speed, projectiles, aerials with little to no landing lag, and moves that can be coverted into combos and frame traps, where Zelda is a character who MUST wait for the opponent to make a mistake. Now, when you are both on stage, what sounds like a solid strategy, waiting for an opening, or making your own? Being rewarded with a combo or conversion from your hit, or gaining nothing? Being able to safely go off stage and net a kill, or waiting for my opponent to recover? This is the reality of the match up in a lot of instances. And sure, you have some great players like Nairo who can beat the upper echelon of the cast with lower tier characters like Zelda, but that's just an experienced and smart player playing against worse players; it happens more often than you think, but when he's playing against better or equally skilled players he picks Zero Suit Samus. There is a reason why you don't see him play with her in Grand Finals, and the reasons I mentioned are precisely why.

I know you are being optimistic here, and perhaps there is something that may be able to help the characters combat these onslaught of overpowered characters, but since this game is cut and dry for the most part, and experimentation with custom moves / equipment is questionable in this phase of the games cycle, there is little that can help other than a potential balance patch for the game (which is a poisonous mentality to have when characters should be balanced to the point that adapting to the opponent should be key) to fix any disadvantages a character may have , but if anything it's just going to be a nerf to a characters advantage, which is a bad form of balance in my opinion.

Personally, I have never lost to a Zelda in this game so Far, not even in a Zelda ditto.

You think I think every character is balanced? Ha! I main Mario and Jigglypuff, for ****'s sake, I know full well how imbalanced this game is. How Mario has good matchups against the entire cast, but when it comes down to a Sheik, a Sonic, or a Diddy, how that all goes down the ****ter. And the "thousands of people" thing? 8/10 Melee tournaments are nothing but Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, and the occasional Jigglypuff. That's why people are so shocked and helpless when different characters like Doc come up. In a way, it keeps the game fresh. If everyone knew every character as well as you say they do, there'd be no surprise factor. There'd be no Allys or Bosses or Shroomeds to suprise everyone by making a seemingly "low tier character" shine. That's why tiers are bull****, the basis for a matchup is that both players are on an even skill level, like you said. That is a horrible assumption to make because it's almost never going to happen. Someone is going to be at least slightly less skilled or slightly more skilled than the other.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You think I think every character is balanced? Ha! I main Mario and Jigglypuff, for ****'s sake, I know full well how imbalanced this game is. How Mario has good matchups against the entire cast, but when it comes down to a Sheik, a Sonic, or a Diddy, how that all goes down the ****ter. And the "thousands of people" thing? 8/10 Melee tournaments are nothing but Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, and the occasional Jigglypuff. That's why people are so shocked and helpless when different characters like Doc come up. In a way, it keeps the game fresh. If everyone knew every character as well as you say they do, there'd be no surprise factor. There'd be no Allys or Bosses or Shroomeds to suprise everyone by making a seemingly "low tier character" shine. That's why tiers are bull****, the basis for a matchup is that both players are on an even skill level, like you said. That is a horrible assumption to make because it's almost never going to happen. Someone is going to be at least slightly less skilled or slightly more skilled than the other.

You forgot about Marth, Peach and Ice Climbers by the way.

Tiers would be bull**** if the served the purpose you are suggesting; dictating the flow of a match up or who is a better character, but--that's not the case. Tiers are literally just a ranked list on characters who win tournaments. Just tournaments. When X character wins a tournament (or places high) they will go up on the list, simple as that. Tiers serve no other purpose.

 

[Zodiacx10]

game and watch above link? jiggs before doc? idk man

 

[MarioMeteor]

game and watch above link? jiggs before doc? idk man

I could see Jigglypuff being slightly above Doc. Them being low-tier however, is complete bull****.

You forgot about Marth, Peach and Ice Climbers by the way.

Tiers would be bull**** if the served the purpose you are suggesting; dictating the flow of a match up or who is a better character, but--that's not the case. Tiers are literally just a ranked list on characters who win tournaments. Just tournaments. When X character wins a tournament (or places high) they will go up on the list, simple as that. Tiers serve no other purpose.

So then like I said, they're just popularity contests.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Well if anything, one thing that tier lists never tend to fail at is start crap flingers like these in the internet.

I'm not disappointed.

 

[Pureownege75]

event hubs is the worst tier list i've ever seen in my life. If coming in 2nd at apex (olimar) doesn't move someone out of bottom tier, than the list is just trash, Plus pac man in the bottom 5 makes no god damn sense.. Plus the amount of top level Luigi players should indicate how useful he is (False,Boss,etc..). I find it weird that this seemingly wasn't a consideration in the Event Hubs tier list or this new japanese tier list.

Side note:
People need to let go of the idea that a nerfed character is a bad character. If this was the first ever smash game, Marth/MetaKnight would be much higher on the tier list. But since he was better in another game people can see that their swords are shorter and now their "awful". The same thing happened to Greninja too. He's still a very good character but since he got nerfed, people think he's bad. People are forgetting that these characters were all Nerfed out of A or S tier, not D tier, they are very slightly worse than a version of themselves that was considered the best or one of the best in the game. MetaKnight is way too slept on in this reason, of course hes nerfed from brawl, he had to be. That doesn't make him bad, that just means hes no longer S++ tier.

Yeah absolutely. I never took it seriously, but I always kept up with it if only because it was really the only tier list out there getting updated. The Japan Tier List isn't perfect, but it's far more accurate than the EventHubs one