Ivysaur Tactical Discussion

[TheReflexWonder]

Two things about B-Air--

The first hit sends people up (however slight) and the second one hits them at a 60-degree angle. As a result, Falco could just Forward-B again before hitting the ground.

Also, part of why the N-Air spike is so important is because it sends people down in a way that makes it impossible to interact with the stage (like, if you spiked someone next to a wall, they couldn't tech it), so they stay in their falling animation for a while before the RCO lag even becomes a factor. B-Air doesn't do that, so you would be hard-pressed to get a U-Smash out of it even if it did guarantee a landing, but N-Air spike gives you plenty of time.

Retro put up a video that had a similar concept a long, long time ago, but it wasn't explored with RCO lag in mind. Let me see if I can find it...

EDIT: Yeah, here you go--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzPFNPrhJV4

 

[Aposl]

good stuff! im going to use this!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I noticed that Ivysaur's "dash stop" animation (when you're running and you just let go of the stick) allows you to input a move for pretty much all of the animation. All that means is you can do a late running grab (BAD) or a delayed Dash Attack.

The latter could be really useful if people make a habit of rolling or spotdodging your approaches, since you can choose not to do anything and react if they jump away or roll, or you can sweetspot the Dash Attack if they spotdodge. Just another approach mixup, anyway, which can be nice when you want that one big attack to KO or to allow a safe switch.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

2 / 7 Donkey Kong Up-B
2 / 10 Bowser Up-B
15 / 5 Lucario Up-B ALS

15 / 19 Fox Up-B
15 / 19 Falco Up-B

15 / 20 Ganon Side-B
15 / 20 Falco Side-B
15 / 20 Falcon Side-B

15 / 24 Pikachu Up-B
15 / 25 Kirby Down-B
15 / 25 Kirby Side-B
15 / 25 Fox Side-B
15 / 25 Wolf Side-B

15 / 30 Mario Up-B
15 / 30 Luigi Up-B
15 / 30 Peach Up-B*
15 / 30 Ganon Up-B
15 / 30 Falcon Up-B
15 / 30 Squirtle Up-B
15 / 30 Charizard Up-B
15 / 30 Lucario Up-B

15 / 35 Marth Up-B
15 / 36 Wolf Up-B

The first number is a soft landing. This is irrelevant to the NAir spike.
The second number is a hard landing. NAir spike causes this. That is almost our frame advantage, just subtract the amount of time it takes to land.
They just have to have used whatever the move is and not landed (getting up from the ledge doesn't count). A few exceptions: Pikachu must have completed one full part of Up-B, Peach must have closed her umbrella, and the ALS for Lucario means if he grabbed the ledge but didn't go into special fall, "Auto Ledge Snap".

 

[CoonTail]

- Luis

I like that idea for Ivy's dash attack, but where is the sweetspot on it because I didn't even know dash attack had a sweet spot.

-Supreme

The list confused me a little I understand hard landing, but what is soft landing.
Lastly are the numbers the amount of frames the character is stunned after n-air spike?

 

[T-block]

The sweet spot is the hitbox with KO potential. There is another hitbox that comes out later with much less knockback.

Most landings are hard landings. Soft landing is basically a landing where the character hasn't reached his top fall speed yet IIRC. The numbers are how many frames of landing lag the other character will go through, yeah.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Actually, Hard landing is just simply you fastfalled. I believe it's you have to be moving faster than your regular fallspeed. This rule doesn't apply to fallspeed from attacks.
It's the amount of frames they can't do anything after hitting the ground.

 

[T-block]

I thought that was the case too, but someone corrected me a while ago.

 

[T-block]

Do you guys ever use Ivysaur's u-tilt to juggle? This is completely theorycraft at the moment, but juggling with a few u-tilts might condition them to air dodge, which could lead to a u-smash. Conversely, those who are scared of air dodging into a u-smash might be hit by u-tilts quite a bit.

Might only work on slower fallers...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I imagine it could work fairly well on characters who don't fall very quickly, and/or characters who don't have great horizontal aerial mobility. It sounds like the U-Air trap with Squirtle and the N-Air trap with Charizard.

 

[Geenareeno]

U-tilt sets up for combos so well. Against light guys. You can nair them after 2 or read an airdodge and fair them and you always have Vine whip too. Dash attack and Grab for them airdodging to the ground.

 

[Tesh]

uptilt kinda sucks imo, I would prefer to just nair if the situation called for something quick. If someone is directly above you in uptilt range, you should be trying to upsmash or bulletseed if you have a read imo. Uptilt doesn't even look like it has a disjoint that would make anyone afraid.

 

[T-block]

Tesh you missed the point D=

Conditioning with u-tilt is a step towards making that u-smash read easier. If you hit them with a u-tilt while they're falling, they're more likely to air dodge to avoid it the next time.

Still all in my head though... I could have the timing completely wrong, and it only works on Jigglypuff or something.

 

[Tesh]

Eh...But Uptilt sucks, hit entire hurtbox goes up there with the hitbox, no need to airdodge it when you can probably with with your own nair/bair/fair/dair/footstool.

 

[Aposl]

doesn't matter what they do to it the spacing will still open them up for an up smash if they try it again, thus conditioning.

 

[Célja]

I have a question about Ivysaur's D-Smash: Is it even worth using in a fight other than mindgames/surprise attack? I never use it and now I actually look down on it. Is there some usage I'm missing from it?

 

[CoonTail]

It literally has one ridiculously situational use in brawl, so no your missing nothing about it since it is one of the worst moves in smash bros history.

 

[Tesh]

gotta wonder what they were thinking. its so slow and weak.....

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I use it occasionally.

When gimping Link to make the other player feel bad.

 

[CoonTail]

LOL thats basically the incredibly rare situation it's useful in Supreme hitting bad recoveries with it to cause silly gimps. Also if ic's ever try and non ledge snap up-b you can hit Popo with is as he's raising over the stage.......nana either gets stuck off stage or on the ledge and Popo plummets to death LOL.

 

[T-block]

Yeah, i think IC had discovered the only legitimate case of d-smash being the best move to choose. The only other one I can think of is when the opponent has a hammer... if they misspace their approach, d-smash can actually hit them before the hammer can hit you if it's on the backswing. If it hits them off the edge they die =)

 

[Aposl]

Just found out that Ivysaur forces air release if he re - grabs enemies out of the air with a reverse grab, even though it puts them in the ground break animation. Haven't test all characters but it worse on Bowser. Dont really know if this matters lol.

 

[Tesh]

i dont understand what you just said....

 

[CoonTail]

Just found out that Ivysaur forces air release if he re - grabs enemies out of the air with a reverse grab, even though it puts them in the ground break animation. Haven't test all characters but it worse on Bowser. Dont really know if this matters lol.

In translation

Ivysaur forces air releases if he regrabs with pivot grabs....(This is where I got lost)even though it puts them in the ground break animation. Haven't tested it on the entire cast but it works on Bowser, dunno if it really matters.

Aposl this is an awkward thing to imagine because pivot grabbing out of air release seems like them would have more than enough time to react, also if you air release them how does a ground break animation happen?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was under the impression that Ivysaur air-released everyone if she isn't pummeling when they release.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I was under the impression that Ivysaur air-released everyone if she isn't pummeling when they release.

Wrong, DK only gets air released by Snake, for one. Same for Snake himself.

It's a known fact that grabbing characters out of the air allows some to air release.
Even better than that, grabbing characters out of the air and buffering a pummel can force an air release. Fox has this on MK (free usmash) and zss has this on Dedede (free chaingrab)

 

[Aposl]

I am talking about when you grab characters out of the air, when I say animation I am talking about the animation while they are being held by the grab. Usually you can tell by that if they are held in the air and wiggling a certain way but with Ivy characters that would normally ground release, look like they will ground release but still air release that is all...

and at brosuke what I am talking about is characters THAT SHOULDNT air release, they do for some reason.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yes. Thats what I said.

 

[Fuujin]

Guys Ivysaur is bad.

 

[T-block]

Don't spam please.

Does anyone know if there's a list of those grab situations somewhere? I know there's quite a few of them, and I have no clue how they work really.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

uh

Like,

Grab someone on the ground, grab someone from the air, grab someone from the air and buffer a pummel or something?

 

[Célja]

I've been messing around with Ivy a lot recently and I discovered that Razor Leaf > Grab works really well for me. Most people put up their sheilds after the first leaf so I rush in there and grab them when I have the chance. After the grab I do D-throw > grounded Vine Whip.

What do you all think of this?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What do you do when people start spotdodging whenever you run in?

 

[Phiddlesticks]

neutral air all day every day

EDIT: razor leaf -> grab works a lot, it has just enough knockback to get them airborne ever so slightly so that you can grab them pretty safely a lot of the time. dash attack also works if youre close enough when the razor leaf connects.

at higher percents when your opponent has the option of either air dodging back into the ground or double jumping away, grab still works if they air dodge, but if the character is tall enough you can just run up and full hop fair to cover both double jumping and air dodging (fair has enough range to hit a lot of characters when theyre grounded)

but keep in mind this is only if youre at the right range, if youre at max razor leaf range i usually just follow it up with another razor leaf either full hopped or just grounded (to mix it up)

 

[T-block]

Read 'em like a boss. Jump to where they are and Bullet Seed ;D

 

[Célja]

What do you do when people start spotdodging whenever you run in?

If they spotdodge then I usually use the dash attack. If that doesn't work then I stop and use F-tilt.

 

[MaTA]

usually what I'll do is bait them into a bullet seed, Just know wait for the attack that you can pop out of and use. Its a fair trade off of getting hit. Knowing your match up and with Ivy is very important.

 

[Tesh]

you guys are talking about reading spotdodges and no one mentioned upsmash? once they are over like 50-80 i wouldn't punish a spotdodge with anything else.

 

[Célja]

I have another question:

What would be the best follow up attack/action after I use Bullet Seed?

I normally either Grab, Dash attack, or use Razor Leaf.

 

[Geenareeno]

Those are good options as well as f-tilt, another bullet seed, and F-smash if you can land it.