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Ivysaur Tactical Discussion
- Thread starter TheReflexWonder
- Start date
Frame 22 is slow, but it works on characters that are slow in the air sometimes, like Peach.
Peach is always double-jumping back to try and F-Air you afterward.
Are they? Seems like vs Ivysaur, you should just dair dair, nair, stay close and then gimp him.
I've never seen someone consistently retreat to that obscure spot where it sweetspots. Is there a good picture of Ivy's hitboxes on up b.
I've never seen someone consistently retreat to that obscure spot where it sweetspots. Is there a good picture of Ivy's hitboxes on up b.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
UpB OoS is good with Squirtle actually 
If you can UpB with Ivy, I'm not sure you need to shield.
If you can UpB with Ivy, I'm not sure you need to shield.
waterfall is unsafe on hit due to SDIUpB OoS is good with Squirtle actually
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Well yes but if you land on a platform it should be okay.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
Lol Myo just because you should be does not mean your safe!
But yea I gotta agree with Steeler here, WaterFall OoS is not a safe option and is not terribly hard to SDI.
WaterFall OoS is a good mix up once in a blue tho.
But yea I gotta agree with Steeler here, WaterFall OoS is not a safe option and is not terribly hard to SDI.
WaterFall OoS is a good mix up once in a blue tho.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Well, its range is amazing and can punish things that we can't normally punish.
I agree that it's not safe, but we play a middle tier character. We can't be safe forever, we have to try some risky things. At least that's my point of view.
I rarely use it, but when I do, I make sure that I have no other options.
I agree that it's not safe, but we play a middle tier character. We can't be safe forever, we have to try some risky things. At least that's my point of view.
I rarely use it, but when I do, I make sure that I have no other options.
While I agree that mid-lows need to take risks because they aren't naturally safe, I don't think it applies to waterfall because the reward is minimal, especially compared to how big the risk is.
You shouldn't take massive risks to land moves that do minimal damage or don't set up anything else good.
Risks should be taken for things like Ivy's usmash, because the reward justifies the risk. It isn't something you'd try when the opponent is at 150%, because you could KO them with much safer options.
T-block
B2B TST
waterfall can be pretty cool on mach tornado...
It can be pretty cool against characters with no strong way to punish your landing if they DI out.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Speaking of UpB, while you're helpless, you can cancel your lag on PS1/Lylat/Fregate (not sure) by landing at the right place (at the very edge). You have to fall exactly between the zone where you can grab the ledge, and the place where you simply fall back on the stage. It'll cancel all your lag, will put you a bit under the stage with a DJ. You can also simply ledgedrop, DJ at the right time (without even moving) to have the same result. Only works with Squirtle.
If that doesn't give us ledgegrabs, I wonder if that could be perfected as a stalling tactic.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Actually I don't know if it counts, I'm gonna check and edit this post.
Edit : Awww, idk why, but it counts 1 ledgegrab...
By the way : if you cancel your ledgedrop + jump, you have another jump to use. You can use that jump to cancel again. Immediatly after cancelling, we can Uair and then jump to edgecancel, then Uair, etc...
Edit : Awww, idk why, but it counts 1 ledgegrab...
By the way : if you cancel your ledgedrop + jump, you have another jump to use. You can use that jump to cancel again. Immediatly after cancelling, we can Uair and then jump to edgecancel, then Uair, etc...
T-block
B2B TST
wait myo... you can reproduce that? like... do it consistently? o.o
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Yeah, just try, it's easy.
When that happens, the game tries to snap you to the ledge. I guess the game counts how many times it tries to snap you to the ledge, rather than ledgegrabs themselves.
Zwarm
Smash Hero
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Just figured out that we can ledgejump and immediatly tether to regrab the ledge. I was wondering, do you think we can do that, cancel Ivy's tether and airdodge into the ground to punish Marth/Falcon/Mario/anyone with a similar UpB with an USmash/FSmash when they land? That would be awesome.
Pretty impractical, as we would have to cancel really early, which would give the opponent enough time to react and just grab the ledge instead.
Perhaps it could work against Falcon, but, either way, if any character is far enough out where they have to barely recover like that, why aren't you just B-Airing or D-Airing him?
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Ivy has her vine on the ledge, thus the opponent cannot sweetspot the ledge and have to land on the stage. I don't know if you see what I'm talking about.
I don't Bair/Dair because it's too risky (especially against Marth)
I don't Bair/Dair because it's too risky (especially against Marth)
No, I get what you're saying.
This would require the opponent to be so far from the ledge when recovering that after using a mid-air jump and moving forward, they barely make it back to the stage. Otherwise, they can stall out your Up-B, as you're only above the ledge for about a third of a second at most. In that situation, a B-Air/D-Air would not be risky, since they don't have the ability to change their trajectory at all, and must constantly move forward.
Outside of that situation, you could only take the ledge from them if their reflexes are outright bad, since their Up-B is much faster than yours.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Ok, I'll trust you on this one.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
No need to trust Myo, Luis is explaining that what you're attempting to do is impractical and requires an opponent to be a character who's recovery is slow enough o not beat you're up-b with theirs or have such poor reaction time tht this works.
I ike the idea it just i pretty impractical.
I ike the idea it just i pretty impractical.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
In the situation I'm thinking of, I'm hanging on the edge without my tether after an edgehog to force a Marth to UpB onto the stage.
Immediatly after the Marth's UpB, I ledgejump (not ledgehop ; I just press Up when I'm on the edge), grab the ledge with the UpB and immediatly cancel it to punish Marth's landing with a smash.
I understand that it's impractical, but I don't see what reaction time has to do with that.
Immediatly after the Marth's UpB, I ledgejump (not ledgehop ; I just press Up when I'm on the edge), grab the ledge with the UpB and immediatly cancel it to punish Marth's landing with a smash.
I understand that it's impractical, but I don't see what reaction time has to do with that.
You can't force Marth to do anything by hanging on the edge without your tether unless he's already in a position to gimp--
http://www.endlessvideo.com/watch?v=KzAWoZsGpwQ&start=2m45s&end=2m50s
The hitbox is slightly above his body, meaning that you have to basically be at your maximum height in order to avoid the attack, which doesn't last long at all.
Marth can stall out your invincibility frames with Forward-B if he has any extra space to spare to do it. If he doesn't, you really should just D-Air him, as that would work just as well and put you at a significantly smaller risk, since his Up-B would just put you back on the stage in a worst-case scenario, and even the sourspot would be enough to get the KO.
Even without any time to Forward-B stall his descent, his Up-B has an interesting property that allows him to either start moving downward almost immediately afterward or hang in the air for what seems like twenty-ish frames. If he sees you cancel your tether, he can just fastfall to the ledge, no problem.
Your Up-B isn't even close to instantaneous. If you find yourself in a situation where Marth's Up-B happens while you are invincible on the ledge, he'll be able to steer himself to the ledge whenever you get off before you can fire off anything but an aerial or Dash Attack, and because of that, you may as well just ledgehop U-Air. It's significantly easier and has the same payoff when you get it right.
That said, D-Air more, everyone. It's better than I once thought.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Thanks for the explanation!
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Reflex Ivysaur combo vid. Gimme. Dat.
I'm legitimately thinking about making a video devoted to the character; maybe an edgeguard theory video.
How does Bullet Seed out of shield hold up against Marth's Dancing Blade? I bet if we react quickly enough, this could be really useful. Almost all of the swings stay out for four frames, so if Marth is fast enough about it to get his attack out, we would trade our start-up Bullet Seed hit with DB3. They both do almost nothing, but we're no longer forced to play the guessing game of, "Is he going to keep swinging?", and Marth is popped up above us in more hitstun than we are, so we can probably punish, or at least get frame advantage to try to do so.
If he doesn't airdodge, we get an aerial, and if he airdodges without using his jump to get away, we get an easy, reliable F-Smash read. Marth's safest option would be to jump away and airdodge, but we can chase that, too, and he'll still be landing without a jump, so at absolutely worst, it forces him to give up stage control.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Yeah, that could work. I'll try when I'll be ble to.
However, I think jump out of shield + BS is faster than shield drop + BS.
However, I think jump out of shield + BS is faster than shield drop + BS.
It is faster; that's what I was implying.
Not all that important, but, <100% ledge attack data suggests that we can stop it with Bullet Seed some of the time.
Bullet Seed roulette!
Because I cannot see the hitboxes on the projectile, I'm eventually going to do a repetitive test of Bullet Seed's stream against different <100% ledge attacks based on invincibility and body size. Bullet Seed shoots a new projectile every seven frames, but it rises
0 vulnerable frames:
Lucas
Marth (usually)
1 vulnerable frame:
Everyone else
2 vulnerable frames:
Mr. Game and Watch
3 vulnerable frames:
Bowser
Luigi
Mario
Snake
The thing about certain characters, though, is that since their bodies are taller, a Bullet Seed projectile can hit him when it's higher, making the chances it will hit much higher. Bowser is more like 5/7, while Donkey Kong and Ganondorf are more like 3/7 from this.
Also, a neat thing--Doing Bullet Seed while touching the ledge and facing away from the ledge can get you to avoid the first couple frames of some ledge attacks. This brings Marth from 0/7 to something like 4/7, and Ganondorf goes even further, to something like 5/7.
I still need to get data on characters' heights at the point right before their attacking frames come out to get a better feel for it. Either way, you're rolling the dice, but you stand to gain a whole lot if you get lucky. Make sure you're holding Up and Forward to DI the potential ledge attack you might incur.
Bullet Seed roulette!
Because I cannot see the hitboxes on the projectile, I'm eventually going to do a repetitive test of Bullet Seed's stream against different <100% ledge attacks based on invincibility and body size. Bullet Seed shoots a new projectile every seven frames, but it rises
0 vulnerable frames:
Lucas
Marth (usually)
1 vulnerable frame:
Everyone else
2 vulnerable frames:
Mr. Game and Watch
3 vulnerable frames:
Bowser
Luigi
Mario
Snake
The thing about certain characters, though, is that since their bodies are taller, a Bullet Seed projectile can hit him when it's higher, making the chances it will hit much higher. Bowser is more like 5/7, while Donkey Kong and Ganondorf are more like 3/7 from this.
Also, a neat thing--Doing Bullet Seed while touching the ledge and facing away from the ledge can get you to avoid the first couple frames of some ledge attacks. This brings Marth from 0/7 to something like 4/7, and Ganondorf goes even further, to something like 5/7.
I still need to get data on characters' heights at the point right before their attacking frames come out to get a better feel for it. Either way, you're rolling the dice, but you stand to gain a whole lot if you get lucky. Make sure you're holding Up and Forward to DI the potential ledge attack you might incur.
Ok, im not a brawl expert, but i have been playin for a while & even went into a couple of tourney. kk, so my question is, is ter a AT for ivysaur to use bullet seed while movin, cuz while i was playing against my friend, my ivysaur was using bullet seed & still sliding o.0 ... It wasnt as long as a dacus slide but it was still a good amount o.0 can anyone help me out here?