It's the "So Long Ness" Monster of an update

[KaptKRool]

Why can't people either accept that, as Sakurai has said he was going to do in Melee, Lucas has replaced Ness? They're both from the same game series, both look a lot alike, and have nearly identical moves. What's the big deal with Ness being replaced by someone exactly like him? Would you rather we have Lucas, and just to please the people that mained Ness, throw him in as a clone of Lucas? (or maybe Lucas would be the clone of Ness)


If you just have to have Ness in the game, why not just pretend Lucas is a slightly modified Ness with his hair dyed blonde, no hat, and blue contacts? Lucas is almost exactly like Ness is in Melee for a reason, and it's hard to think up any other logical reason other than Lucas replacing Ness.

All evidence is pointing towards Ness not being in the game. The only thing still keeping the belief that Ness is in is the people who just want him in so much, they ignore all the logic and evidence. Even if Sakurai came out and said in an update that "Ness is not in Brawl", people would still believe he's in.

Lucas is almost the exact same as Ness was, Sakurai has stated he means to take Ness out and put Lucas in his place, and Sakurai even said "until now" regarding Ness being in Smash Bros. When the game comes out in a few weeks in Japan, you guys are gonna be pretty upset that Ness isn't in the game, but you could have more time to get over it if you'd actually look at things at face value, and stop thinking Sakurai has some secret little plan to make everybody think Ness isn't in the game, and then reveal him, as a clone of Lucas.

I really can't wait to see what the Ness-lovers are going to say when the game comes out in Japan, and Ness is nowhere to be found. Should make for a good meme on this and other video game forums.

 

[JonBeBonanza]

im jst going to say this.... if NESS IS IN THE GAME.... some ppl better no show themselves for a while.....

 

[JonBeBonanza]

but Sakurai already said no clones.

ummm i doubt sakurai EVER said no clones... ppl just asssume it. listen to the podcast where they talk about this... which the prophet wwho predicted the Dragoon b4 it happened said Ness is returning...


but sakurai never said "no clones"

and if he did show me wehre he says this

 

[Gargomon251]

You know which quote says he's not in Brawl, but I guarantee you will say that it doesn't mean anything.

Once again, "UNTIL NOW" MEANS NOTHING

We also saw his F Air, I believe, which is the same as Ness's.

If you mean the latest trailer, that looks nothing like any of Ness's aerials. I looked multiple times.

Trying to mix the meaning or words around to your advantage, if you pronounce them really fast and turn your head to the side and squint your eyes as you read them, doesn't change the meaning of what Sakurai said.

My thoughts exactly. Just be patient and wait until he actually gives us a definitive answer. Granted, yes Lucas was supposed to replace Ness in Melee, but this is not Melee, and you can't base your entire opinion of his inclusion on one poorly worded sentence.
There's only one month left. Just wait for it. If he's not in the game, so be it, but for now we can neither confirm nor deny it.

 

[Chi's Finest]

You just proved yourself wrongwith your own point. The handicap quote was something that made a few more Ness fans believe he was out. Go read the handicap update. Sakurai changed the way they work now. They don't use dmage ratios form 1-9 anymore. You give each person a set percent of damage to start out with each time.

I'm curious to know if you think there are also more characters besides Wario that have alt costumes?

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

You people need to keep in mind how popular Ness is to the Americas. Most people in North America had never heard of Lucas until now. The thing is that people like Ness, and Ness was part of one of the BEST SNES games available in NA. So, if you were a game developer, and were creating a game for the MASSES and it's KEY FEATURE is that in includes many of your FAVOURITE game characters, would you remove a character which is almost the entire NA population's link to a popular game? I sure as hell wouldn't.

And another thing: Yes, Sakurai changed how handicaps work, but guess what it's still called? A HANDICAP. Regardless of how it's working, it has still made a return, yes? And Sakurai did use the same terminology when announcing it. So perhaps Ness will return, but with new features, or maybe he'll play differently.

Let's also not forget that when languages are translated into other languages, mistakes are made...

Not only this, but The "up until now" argument is stupid. When Sakurai announces a character, he does so using language as if the character's inclusion in Brawl was simultaneous with his announcement.

An example is PT. Sakurai said "The Pokemon Trainer has finally arrived," which sounds like PT was not in Brawl untl he was announced. Ness has not been announced, so, in Sakurai-speak, Ness is not in Brawl.

So, when he says Ness has appeared up until now, he means Ness hasn't been announced yet, so he's not in yet. It doesn't preclude the possibility of him being put in later.

I'm set in my belief that Ness will return, but even though my points here should make quite a bit of sense, I'm not saying this is for certain. After all, the game isn't even out yet.

 

[Fandangox]

You people need to keep in mind how popular Ness is to the Americas. Most people in North America had never heard of Lucas until now. The thing is that people like Ness, and Ness was part of one of the BEST SNES games available in NA. So, if you were a game developer, and were creating a game for the MASSES and it's KEY FEATURE is that in includes many of your FAVOURITE game characters, would you remove a character which is almost the entire NA population's link to a popular game? I sure as hell wouldn't.

And another thing: Yes, Sakurai changed how handicaps work, but guess what it's still called? A HANDICAP. Regardless of how it's working, it has still made a return, yes? And Sakurai did use the same terminology when announcing it. So perhaps Ness will return, but with new features, or maybe he'll play differently.

Let's also not forget that when languages are translated into other languages, mistakes are made...

Not only this, but The "up until now" argument is stupid. When Sakurai announces a character, he does so using language as if the character's inclusion in Brawl was simultaneous with his announcement.

An example is PT. Sakurai said "The Pokemon Trainer has finally arrived," which sounds like PT was not in Brawl untl he was announced. Ness has not been announced, so, in Sakurai-speak, Ness is not in Brawl.

So, when he says Ness has appeared up until now, he means Ness hasn't been announced yet, so he's not in yet. It doesn't preclude the possibility of him being put in later.

I'm set in my belief that Ness will return, but even though my points here should make quite a bit of sense, I'm not saying this is for certain. After all, the game isn't even out yet.

Te fajaste chamo, te fajaste

 

[JonBeBonanza]

heard of Lucas until now

lucas deconfirmed for brawl??

woo hoo


no but great argument nonetheless, me personally i feel ness is returning, and i cant wait to laugh at all the ppl wo said he wasn't going to be in....that or i could be wrong o_o...... please sakurai put ness abck in brawl, i'll do anything.... and i mean anything o_O

 

[Gargomon251]

And another thing: Yes, Sakurai changed how handicaps work, but guess what it's still called? A HANDICAP. Regardless of how it's working, it has still made a return, yes? And Sakurai did use the same terminology when announcing it. So perhaps Ness will return, but with new features, or maybe he'll play differently.

You took the words right out of my mouth. However, my opinion of Ness's chances are closer to 65%. I want him to be in, yes, but, much like Geno, it doesn't seem entirely likely. Granted, Ness is much more likely than Geno.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

I'd like to point out that Lucas's special moves update consisted of Sakurai mentioning multiple times how different Lucas was from Ness...

 

[Gargomon251]

I'd like to point out that Lucas's special moves update consisted of Sakurai mentioning multiple times how different Lucas was from Ness...

Another good point. Sakurai could have easily just stolen all of Ness's moves and made Lucas an exact copy (plus the rope snake, of course). On the other hand, it could be that they are made Lucas different in order to balance him out, much like Fox changed between SSB and Melee.

I'm still interested in PK Thunder, though. That's the only special that seems physically unchanged. Maybe it's more powerful, or doesn't stop immediately when it hits an opponent....But the PK Fire reminds me of the fireballs of the Mario Brothers. If Ness does indeed return, I hope they improve PK Flash.

 

[RazeveX]

hmm...a straight pk fire in air, ey?

i hope this develops into a short-hopping-pk-firing craze!! (like falco)

 

[Chi's Finest]

Ness was part of one of the best SNES games? I guess that's why no one ever heard of Mother/Earthbound outside of Japan or knew who Ness was until SSB64.

I'd like to point out that Lucas's special moves update consisted of Sakurai mentioning multiple times how different Lucas was from Ness...

Multiple times means more than once. His special moves were mentioned as being different from Ness's ONCE, and that was his PK Fire.

Another good point

Considering it wasn't even true.... But since it agrees with your fanboyism of a deconfirmed character, it makes perfect sense doesn't it?

Let's also not forget that when languages are translated into other languages, mistakes are made...

Ah yes, the common argument of ssaying that a statement you don't agree with was simply "translated wrong". Actually, you may need to ask SP or someone, but I thought the japanese translation deconfirmed him even clearer than the English one.

 

[Fawriel]

Hmm, I thought this debate would end when I saw Lucas swing a baseball bat. Not the case, I suppose?

 

[Gargomon251]

Hmm, I thought this debate would end when I saw Lucas swing a baseball bat. Not the case, I suppose?

You can barely make it out, and it means little this early.

 

[Chi's Finest]

Hmm, I thought this debate would end when I saw Lucas swing a baseball bat. Not the case, I suppose?

Sadly no. I thought that was the case because the last of the Ness believeers were all like "Ok, now I believe he's not in." in the thread for it in the Dojo forum.

You can barely make it out, and it means little this early.

Everything that is shown or mentioned means nothing a slong as it disagrees with a perosns opinions on this forums. Sakurai could have an entire update reading "NESS IS OUT" and some people could read it and say it means nothing, Sakura is lying, or is confirms Ness because it has his name in it.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Hmm, I thought this debate would end when I saw Lucas swing a baseball bat. Not the case, I suppose?

Wow, they have one smash move in common. Do you know what a clone is?

 

[Chi's Finest]

Wow, they have one smash move in common. Do you know what a clone is?

Clearly this guy has never seen anything Brawl related to Lucas or hasn't seen Ness in Melee or 64.

 

[Gargomon251]

Clearly this guy has never seen anything Brawl related to Lucas or hasn't seen Ness in Melee or 64.

As far as I know the "bat" is the only nonspecial attack he has that is similar. His d-smash, u-tilt, and bair, as well as the first attack in the trailer are TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Notice: he jumps, does a midair "shocking" flip, and lands on his hands. Ness's Fair and Nair are not even close, no matter how you look at it.

Upon further inspection, his Bair may be similar, but only as similar as Kirby and Jigglypuff's.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Multiple times means more than once. His special moves were mentioned as being different from Ness's ONCE, and that was his PK Fire.

But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves.

<Side Special Move: PK Fire> This is also quite different from Ness’s.

I believe 2 > 1.

 

[MetaKnight'sSword]

As far as I know the "bat" is the only nonspecial attack he has that is similar. His d-smash, u-tilt, and bair, as well as the first attack in the trailer are TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Notice: he jumps, does a midair "shocking" flip, and lands on his hands. Ness's Fair and Nair are not even close, no matter how you look at it.

Upon further inspection, his Bair may be similar, but only as similar as Kirby and Jigglypuff's.

so tru.....

 

[Fawriel]

I have the feeling that many of the moves of Lucas' that we saw are only the moves Ness had with some improvements and some cosmetic changes that have little to no impact on gameplay ( like PK Freeze, which is bound to have the exact same effect as PK Flash plus freezing ).
I can't prove that, of course.

 

[CommanderGrit]

i dont see why so many people care, i mean Lucas is just Ness with a cosmetic update to match his move update!

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Ness was part of one of the best SNES games? I guess that's why no one ever heard of Mother/Earthbound outside of Japan or knew who Ness was until SSB64.

... The point was that it was one of the best games. Those who do know of him, and like him (Ness) like him alot.

Ah yes, the common argument of ssaying that a statement you don't agree with was simply "translated wrong". Actually, you may need to ask SP or someone, but I thought the japanese translation deconfirmed him even clearer than the English one.

I say this because there are other areas in the site where the grammar is slightly off, and what they're saying surely can't be taken too literally. And I'm not going out of my way to ask this 'SP' or whoever the hell you're talking about, becasue YOU don't have your facts in order.

Multiple times means more than once. His special moves were mentioned as being different from Ness's ONCE, and that was his PK Fire.

My, my, I really do enjoy pointing out how stupid people are:

"Is it possible he can surpass even Ness?!"

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar."

"This is also quite different from Ness’s."

"And even more threatening is his PK Thunder. For those of you unfamiliar with the last game, or the one before that, remember this well."

Looks like more than one referance to me!

Please don't tell me you're this stupid. Please...

Sakurai could have an entire update reading "NESS IS OUT" and some people could read it and say it means nothing, Sakura is lying, or is confirms Ness because it has his name in it.

Actually what we're talking about is the ambiguity of the posts, since there isn't a post saying "Ness is out."

He's not deconfirmed. Yes there's evidence that point to his exclusion, but there's also evidence that points to his inclusion. Calling people fan-boys means you are either a Ness hater, or terribly closed-minded; either way I pity you.

The bottom line is that we don't know until there's definate proof. The point is that there's equal arguments for either side.

 

[Chi's Finest]

My, my, I really do enjoy pointing out how stupid people are:

"Is it possible he can surpass even Ness?!"

The original quote I quoted was saying how Lucas was so different form ness, so this sentence is void.

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar."

Oximoron right here. You used a sentence saying how SIMILAR they are to prove a point of how DIFFERNT there are lol.

"This is also quite different from Ness’s."

This was the one example I was tlaking about

"And even more threatening is his PK Thunder. For those of you unfamiliar with the last game, or the one before that, remember this well."

This makes no mention of how different is it from Ness's. In fact, it mentions how similar it is, so once again you added more fire to my argument against yours.

Looks like more than one referance to me!

Please don't tell me you're this stupid. Please...

No, I'm not stupid enough to try and correct someone and be completely wrong. Not only that but have two of my four examples agree with the guy I'm debating with, which disagrees with my points.......

Actually what we're talking about is the ambiguity of the posts, since there isn't a post saying "Ness is out."

He's not deconfirmed. Yes there's evidence that point to his exclusion, but there's also evidence that points to his inclusion. Calling people fan-boys means you are either a Ness hater, or terribly closed-minded; either way I pity you.

The bottom line is that we don't know until there's definate proof. The point is that there's equal arguments for either side.

There is NO evidence that points to his inclusion, only many pieces of evidence by Sakurai and the Dojo itself that suggests he's out, which anyone can tell, means Ness is gone. I say Ness fanboys because everyone agrees that he's out, except for a few people on this forum, who usually have a Ness avatar and signature.

Me? Close minded? I'm the same guy who's been a Nintendo fan all my life and argue about how much better the 360 is than the Wii. For a logical debate, I put biases aside. The ones that are close minded are people that refuse to believe any evidence that suggests a negative (deconfirmation) of their favorite character.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Whatever. See ya when Ness is confirmed playable in Brawl in two weeks or so.

ps. most people on NeoGAF think he's still in, so we're not so few.

And don't use red font. It's just a game.

 

[Chi's Finest]

I used red font so I could respond to your post within your own quote, and then I just continued to do so to match the rest of the post.

Whatever. See ya when Ness is confirmed playable in Brawl in two weeks or so.

See you a few months ago in the past when Ness was deconfirmed.

 

[Gargomon251]

I say Ness fanboys because everyone agrees that he's out, except for a few people on this forum, who usually have a Ness avatar and signature.

I only made Ness my avatar recently, and only because there's no more room in my sig to put

Ness is has been neither confirmed nor deconfirmed, get over it.

As I stated earlier, I am neither a fanboy nor a hater, I just don't like all this Wild Mass Guessing, just like every update that has people saying ZOMG LOOK AT THAT CLOUD or HEY THAT BLUR KIND OF LOOKS LIKE CAPTAIN FALCON.

See you when Ness's final status is ACTUALLY DECLARED, whether he's in or not.

 

[baheffron]

Perhaps Ness will be a Lucas costume? Other than that, I doubt Ness will be a playable character.

 

[Chi's Finest]

Perhaps Ness will be a Lucas costume? Other than that, I doubt Ness will be a playable character.

Alternate costumes are already deconfirmed for characters other than Wario. I've been predicting Lucas to have an alt with Ness's shirt/hair colors for months.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

No, I'm not stupid enough to try and correct someone and be completely wrong. Not only that but have two of my four examples agree with the guy I'm debating with, which disagrees with my points.......

lolol no seriously, are you joking me?

That's all I needed to hear.

 

[StarshipGroove]

See you when Ness's final status is ACTUALLY DECLARED, whether he's in or not.

Agreed.

Spoiler

10char

 

[Chi's Finest]

lolol no seriously, are you joking me?

That's all I needed to hear.

Good response to me owning your points, even though half of your points hurt your own argument.

 

[InvincibleAgent]

Alternate costumes are already deconfirmed for characters other than Wario. I've been predicting Lucas to have an alt with Ness's shirt/hair colors for months.

Why do some people not see the difference between 2 characters and 1 character with two costumes?

 

[FSLink]

You people need to keep in mind how popular Ness is to the Americas. Most people in North America had never heard of Lucas until now. The thing is that people like Ness, and Ness was part of one of the BEST SNES games available in NA. So, if you were a game developer, and were creating a game for the MASSES and it's KEY FEATURE is that in includes many of your FAVOURITE game characters, would you remove a character which is almost the entire NA population's link to a popular game? I sure as hell wouldn't.

True, though to be fair, Mother 3 was a very wanted game and if I remember right, was on the top of the charts on Most Wanted lists back then when it was announced for the N64DD.

And from what I gather, people (myself included) seem to like Lucas better in his game than Ness in Earthbound, as much as most of us love Ness. >_> Sorry Ness fans.

Anywho, *not directed at your post* it's just plain odd that some people out there on the board would use "Hey, Ness is returning because he could be with his real moveset instead of the Paula one SSB used!"....why would they fix a past character, but then not fix the new character (Lucas) to have the moves he's supposed to have? Fixing the past, but screwing up the present still? That doesn't make sense.

It's also quite odd they wouldn't put Lucas in the demos yet, seems to me that they didn't want to confirm that Ness was out or not, like how they haven't put Zelda in a demo yet to confirm/deconfirm Shiek's inclusion.

 

[MetaKnight'sSword]

I think what all of us should do right now......is to stop arguing about this.....and wait till the game comes out or an update about Ness is revealed because honestly....this is really not getting us anywhere.....

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Good response to me owning your points, even though half of your points hurt your own argument.

Listen kid, if you're just going to start making things up, why bother? Post something logical.

 

[Chi's Finest]

Listen kid, if you're just going to start making things up, why bother? Post something logical.

My points are based entirely on a source you can check. No need to say I made anyhting up. You can check my entire source right here:

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/lucas.html

You thought you were correcting me by saying there were 4x that Sakurai pointed out how different Lucas and Ness were, and I proved you wrong again. 2 of the 4 quotes you posted actually backed my argument of them being similar. No need to cry about it, we all make mistakes.

 

[Noa.]

I honestly believe Ness is in. I must say his chances are not too high, but many people want him in, and it would be a bad choice to leave him out. If he is in, then he will have his same moveset, with many changes such as range, damage, and other stuff. Lucas can be a half-clone that way.

 

[Hippochinfat]

Not only did Sakurai say "There has been a character named Ness who has appeared in the smash brothers series up until now" but Sakurai wanted to replace Ness with Lucas way back in Melee.

If that isn't enough proof, Lucas shares alot of Ness's moves.

He has Ness's:
Fair (Lucas update)
Dair (Lucas update)
Bair (Lucas special moves)
Dash attack (Pictochat)
Up special (Lucas special moves)
Down special ( Lucas special moves)
Side special (Lucas special moves)
SORT OF his neutral special (Lucas special moves)
Forward smash (Subspace emissary movie)

He probaly has even more off Ness moves but here's ones that he has that Ness didn't have:
Down smash (Lucas special moves)
Up tilt (Lucas special moves)
Nair (Home run contest)
Uair? (Subspace emissary movie)

He's got alot more of Ness's moves then his own (At least from what we know now)

Ness is out. You Ness fanboys have to realize that.