Items Deserve Consideration for Brawl Tourney Standards

[Dylan_Tnga]

items are terrible. Theyre boring and they make the game depend on luck rather than skill, the only way to avoid this would to have the items appear like the blocks in tetris, and youd know which item was coming before it spawned, and where it was going to spawn. But thats not a feature in smash, and even if it was, Items would still be off in Tourneys.

The smash ball, I like. Why? because you have to break it open, it moves. It creates strategic possiblities, exploiting your opponnets desire to break the smashball and etc, and new combo techniques with the final smashes.

I wish that all final smashes were created equal though, some are SO good (bowsers, yoshis) and others are SOOO bad.

But im all for smashball in tourneys. Items never.

 

[Team Giza]

I think some items should still be used. And I really liked Dire Vulcan's idea for matches were you pick a few items out of the allowed ones to make them usable in the match. Some items just don't make the game boring, or break anything, and can be used in interesting ways.

I don't know how items work on hit in Brawl. But I think we should keep an open mind, they might be more integrated into Brawl then they were in melee (cause they pretty much suck in melee).

 

[Takeshi245]

items are terrible. Theyre boring and they make the game depend on luck rather than skill, the only way to avoid this would to have the items appear like the blocks in tetris, and youd know which item was coming before it spawned, and where it was going to spawn. But thats not a feature in smash, and even if it was, Items would still be off in Tourneys.

The smash ball, I like. Why? because you have to break it open, it moves. It creates strategic possiblities, exploiting your opponnets desire to break the smashball and etc, and new combo techniques with the final smashes.

I wish that all final smashes were created equal though, some are SO good (bowsers, yoshis) and others are SOOO bad.

But im all for smashball in tourneys. Items never.

Dylan, Smash balls are items. You must mean the only item that would be acceptable to you in tournaments is the Smash Ball. Guys, if you want my take on it, it's the same as Red Exodus's, which is to have both item and non-item tournaments. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Something else.

Why would you want to experiment with something that can potentially imbalance the game even further when you can just easily play based off of the same tournament system that has been a success for years? Items bring no prolonged benifits to the competative community what so ever.

"If is ain't broken, don't fix it!"- Words of a wise man

 

[XCWarrior]

Are you paying to play for money? No? Then don't bother arguing. Play the game the way you want and ignore us and play the way you want.

I doubt you'd react the same way if you lost $10 000 because a capsule landed on your attack.

There should be both item and none item tournaments but the items should be checked out in terms of brokeness.

If you're playing this game and putting $10k on the line, then you have brain cells missing. You're right, I am just going to leave this topic. No reason to convince someone who can't learn.

 

[NES n00b]

If you're playing this game and putting $10k on the line, then you have brain cells missing. You're right, I am just going to leave this topic. No reason to convince someone who can't learn.

You put like a couple bucks on the line. You get more money than you put in.

Please stop acting like you know ****.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

If you're playing this game and putting $10k on the line, then you have brain cells missing. You're right, I am just going to leave this topic. No reason to convince someone who can't learn.

wow this is one of the worst posts i've ever seen, it is so stupid that it's frustrating

 

[Team Giza]

"If is ain't broken, don't fix it!"- Words of a wise man

Problem is a lot of people think that it is wrong to take out items.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

wow this is one of the worst posts i've ever seen, it is so stupid that it's frustrating

Totally.

Ok, theres not going to be items in major tournaments people. Sorry to burst your bubble but its not happening. Ask anyone who's behind the scenes at this stuff, check the interviews with the pro smashers who are setting up the brawl scene, etc.

Have your own mother..... tournaments for the love of god and give them as many or as little rules as you want, Brawl is 500 times more customizable than brawl.

Why are these threads still around? This is a pointless discussion, and its been done to death. I understand the first post had thought put into it, and I considered it.

But I still say theres no use trying to convince other people to conform to your ways, for major tournaments unless you have been a big part of the scene in the past. Just organize your own local tournaments and invite whoever wants to come, if you wanna put money on the line and gamble basically, you need rules and people who agree to them, and put their money down.

I dont go outside my town much for tournaments, but in montreal there are a decent ammount of talented melee players so I definatly havent missed out too much, Im just of course nowhere near as good as I would be if I could go smash with the best in the states.

Im out.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

AlphaZealot did a wonderful job explaining where items went: http://roabs.blogspot.com/2007/11/fate-of-items-in-smash.html

There really is not much hope for items in competition anymore. Randomness just doesn't cut it at the top level.

 

[Zoolander]

items are terrible. Theyre boring and they make the game depend on luck rather than skill, the only way to avoid this would to have the items appear like the blocks in tetris, and youd know which item was coming before it spawned, and where it was going to spawn. But thats not a feature in smash, and even if it was, Items would still be off in Tourneys.

The smash ball, I like. Why? because you have to break it open, it moves. It creates strategic possiblities, exploiting your opponnets desire to break the smashball and etc, and new combo techniques with the final smashes.

I wish that all final smashes were created equal though, some are SO good (bowsers, yoshis) and others are SOOO bad.

But im all for smashball in tourneys. Items never.

lolwut

That logic totally sucks. I'm not saying I'm for items in competitive brawl, but if there WAS items, couldn't you exploit the opponent's desire to get the items...?

And maybe the threads are around because people are optimists and try to persuade people like you to join their side of the arguement; those are the rules of debaet.

Of course, if the Smash ball isn't considered an item, this whole post is moot. D:

I say that only certain items are allowed in Brawl. Remember that one mode that allowed you to turn on and off items in Melee? If that returns in Brawl, we could just turn off some of the more unfair items.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Personal opinion, I find items really boring and extremly easy to use. I turn them on rarely to have fun when Im just messing around, but I cant stand having them on all the time. many people feel the same way im sure.

 

[Team Giza]

Personal opinion, I find items really boring and extremly easy to use. I turn them on rarely to have fun when Im just messing around, but I cant stand having them on all the time. many people feel the same way im sure.

Most items in melee were a little too easy for some obvious reasons. Including just throwing them being overpowered (which is a serious WTF).

Brawl might be a bit different overall depending on what items we allow to be usable. I still think that DireVulcan's item idea is something that should be used in a test tournament some time and see how it goes (I will probably try to host one myself). Items deserve to be tried out, whether it be just a select set of them on at a time or just a select few chosen from that set by each player before the match. Each should be tried to determine whether or not it would be do-able in high levels. I would be happy if item tournaments are just 3x more common than they were in melee... it ended up being only one big item tournament a year (however that understandable since items were a joke in melee).

 

[Spellman]

All arguments aside, I hope that items find their own little niche within their own competitive community when Brawl comes out. I wholeheartedly believe that if there is enough continuous support, it'll come to be. You either like them or you don't. I'm sure there will be guilds and clans of that nature organized once Brawl is released, so anyone who believes in the subject will be able to show their support in that way.

 

[Takalth]

Personal opinion, I find items really boring and extremly easy to use. I turn them on rarely to have fun when Im just messing around, but I cant stand having them on all the time. many people feel the same way im sure.

Item use actually has a lot of depth if you really learn the physics related to them. Sure, some of the overpowered ones need turned off, but items enable a lot of cool tricks as well. Samus, for example, has item-based bomb stunts that are awesome for mindgames and can be absolutely deadly if you can use them above an opponent's head. There are tricks with Mr. Saturn that can tear somebody's shield apart in moments.
Properly used, throwing and recatching items can enable interesting new techniques for juggling or comboing. The bunny hood and metal box can also enable new combos once you get used to using them (It's almost sickening how fast you can SHFFLC with the metal box).

While I generally don't favor items in tournaments, they actually have a cool role in competitive 1 vs. 1 as long as you set them on "very low" and ban the most powerful ones. If you play with them on for a while and start to get creative, they just might grow on you.

 

[Eratangos]

IMHO, the only items that could have a chance are the field items, items that don't give much apparent advantage to item holder or thrower but changes the playing field. One has to use them or move around them with strategy. Right now it includes the spring board, pitfall, bumper, spikeball, bannana peel, smoke ball.

 

[The Hypnotist]

wow this is one of the worst posts i've ever seen, it is so stupid that it's frustrating

Ignorance is bliss. But Gimpy what do you think about all of this item and competitive play.

 

[The Hypnotist]

IMHO, the only items that could have a chance are the field items, items that don't give much apparent advantage to item holder or thrower but changes the playing field. One has to use them or move around them with strategy. Right now it includes the spring board, pitfall, bumper, spikeball, bannana peel, smoke ball.

Interesting point. You might have to cut the banana (remember the song for spelling) peel due to edge guarding.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Item use actually has a lot of depth if you really learn the physics related to them. Sure, some of the overpowered ones need turned off, but items enable a lot of cool tricks as well. Samus, for example, has item-based bomb stunts that are awesome for mindgames and can be absolutely deadly if you can use them above an opponent's head. There are tricks with Mr. Saturn that can tear somebody's shield apart in moments.
Properly used, throwing and recatching items can enable interesting new techniques for juggling or comboing. The bunny hood and metal box can also enable new combos once you get used to using them (It's almost sickening how fast you can SHFFLC with the metal box).

While I generally don't favor items in tournaments, they actually have a cool role in competitive 1 vs. 1 as long as you set them on "very low" and ban the most powerful ones. If you play with them on for a while and start to get creative, they just might grow on you.

For sure man, I see eye to eye with you there.

Im a fan of the umbrealla, for falcon dittos. Crazy cancels and options with the umbrella...

I just dont like items for the big money in the tourney. Have some items customs matches on the side for money or not, people always do it. No one wants to play the same way 24, 7 but I think the tourney way with no items is more fair overall.

 

[Tony_]

AlphaZealot did a wonderful job explaining where items went: http://roabs.blogspot.com/2007/11/fate-of-items-in-smash.html

There really is not much hope for items in competition anymore. Randomness just doesn't cut it at the top level.

Congrats on making Brawl a Melee 2.0.

 

[Psydon]

Interesting point. You might have to cut the banana (remember the song for spelling) peel due to edge guarding.

I made that same point pages ago and nobody noticed. XP And the Bumper is even more cheap for edgeguarding.

Anyway, that's precisely what, for a reason I don't seem to understand, item renouncers don't seem to understand. They always complain about the unfair advantages CERTAIN items give, and we all know about exploding boxes, but they never seem to talk about, or even think about, what Smash would be like without those unfair items.

 

[Sandwich]

When they reveal all the items we'll see.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Congrats on making Brawl a Melee 2.0.

How do you figure? The term "Melee 2.0" refers to keeping Melee's physics, characters, and stages but adding some balance and online play. Even if items end up being banned in competitive Brawl, the experience will still be radically different. You are implying that if I am a Link main in Melee, I will absolutely pwn in Brawl because "nothing changed". The physics change everything.

Items do not have much hope in the tournament environment. Sorry.

 

[Tony_]

How do you figure? The term "Melee 2.0" refers to keeping Melee's physics, characters, and stages but adding some balance and online play. Even if items end up being banned in competitive Brawl, the experience will still be radically different. You are implying that if I am a Link main in Melee, I will absolutely pwn in Brawl because "nothing changed". The physics change everything.

Items do not have much hope in the tournament environment. Sorry.

Oh no. Quit trying to make items sound like they take the fun out of the game. Melee 2.0 means basically keeping the same rules from Melee to Brawl, which is stupid, pointless, and proves that "pro" smashers only care about money rather than playing a game for what it is, a game, not something you hope to gain glory from what, 5% of the total population of the world?

Turning off items also takes away a game mechanic, then again, you don't really care about that do you?

 

[flyinfilipino]

Oh no. Quit trying to make items sound like they take the fun out of the game. Melee 2.0 means basically keeping the same rules from Melee to Brawl, which is stupid, pointless, and proves that "pro" smashers only care about money rather than playing a game for what it is, a game, not something you hope to gain glory from what, 5% of the total population of the world?

Turning off items also takes away a game mechanic, then again, you don't really care about that do you?

Oh just stop. This'll just turn into a pointless argument that's been done over and over again.Let competitive players do what they want, you can't change the way they want to play.

 

[Tony_]

Oh just stop. This'll just turn into a pointless argument that's been done over and over again.Let competitive players do what they want, you can't change the way they want to play.

Theres a certain aspect I would like to intoduce you to. Its called online play and if competitive smashers have their way already at tournaments, you can basically say "bye" to any hope of good online play with out competitives getting in your face.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Theres a certain aspect I would like to intoduce you to. Its called online play and if competitive smashers have their way already at tournaments, you can basically say "bye" to any hope of good online play with out competitives getting in your face.

Hi! You don't know exactly how Brawl's online works do you? Great. If competitive players are such a small percentage of the smash population like you said, then what are you worrying about?

 

[Tony_]

Hi! You don't know exactly how Brawl's online works do you? Great. If competitive players are such a small percentage of the smash population like you said, then what are you worrying about?

That it will spread like a wildfire, killing too many mechanics of the game.

 

[flyinfilipino]

That it will spread like a wildfire, killing too many mechanics of the game.

That what will? Competitive-style play? I really don't think you need to worry.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Oh no. Quit trying to make items sound like they take the fun out of the game. Melee 2.0 means basically keeping the same rules from Melee to Brawl, which is stupid, pointless, and proves that "pro" smashers only care about money rather than playing a game for what it is, a game, not something you hope to gain glory from what, 5% of the total population of the world?

Turning off items also takes away a game mechanic, then again, you don't really care about that do you?

First off, who are you to define what fun is? If I think turning items off is more fun, there is nothing wrong with me. More is not always better. Why do you think the items have an off switch? And no, we don't only care about money. People who actually win money tournaments constitute a very small population. The top three win money while the other 30 win nothing. I cannot count the number of times I have taken 5th. So, I prefer to view it as investing in my skill. As for calling it just a game... soccer, basketball, football, rugby, baseball... those are all games. What do you think of those pro athletes?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

if you dont play the game the way tony likes you are wrong, sakurai told me that tony is always right on things like items and i say turn them off for tournaments

just so you guys know my name is tony

also buzz is a cool cat

 

[LavisFiend]

First off, who are you to define what fun is? If I think turning items off is more fun, there is nothing wrong with me. More is not always better. Why do you think the items have an off switch? And no, we don't only care about money. People who actually win money tournaments constitute a very small population. The top three win money while the other 30 win nothing. I cannot count the number of times I have taken 5th. So, I prefer to view it as investing in my skill. As for calling it just a game... soccer, basketball, football, rugby, baseball... those are all games. What do you think of those pro athletes?

Reach to your *** and pull your panties out of a knot....

He did not say there was just one universal way of playing the game, he was merely commenting on the tone of your previous post, which sounded an awful lot like you implying that items took fun out of the game.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

no he said (paraphrase time) items are fun and taking them off is not fun

 

[LavisFiend]

no he said (paraphrase time) items are fun and taking them off is not fun

Who's "he" and what post are you talking about?

@_@

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Oh no. Quit trying to make items sound like they take the fun out of the game. Melee 2.0 means basically keeping the same rules from Melee to Brawl, which is stupid, pointless, and proves that "pro" smashers only care about money rather than playing a game for what it is, a game, not something you hope to gain glory from what, 5% of the total population of the world?

Turning off items also takes away a game mechanic, then again, you don't really care about that do you?

No johns. You're basically proving that you know nothing about the tournament scene.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i'm talking about the post that buzz was refering to

 

[MetaKnight0]

Who's "he" and what post are you talking about?

@_@

He clearly means the government. The government is trying to stop us from using items.

 

[LavisFiend]

He clearly means the government. The government is trying to stop us from using items.

DEAR LAWD DEY COMMEN TO TAYKE MAI BABEH!

 

[NES n00b]

How does Tony_ come off as an *** everytime? Must be a gift.

Buzz didn't mention fun in his post. Tony's worry is stupid. Alot of you don't know about tourney play in Melee. Just stop.

 

[Team Giza]

Quoted from another topic but... whatever

While I agree that items do add some depth to the game, the unfairness aspect makes them worthy of the ban hammer.

Well in melee of coarse. However in Brawl it might be possible to turn off all of the explosion factors. It would cut down the unfairness aspect enough to allow it, IMO.

Personally I like having items on, but having those random exploding boxes appearing during attacks just go too far. Even I know that items in melee created way too much luck and random events to be played on competitive levels... AND I FREAKIN' PLAY POWER STONE SERIOUSLY. Items need to be thought about again in Brawl and be reconsidered in almost every way. If a few items create too much luck just turn them off and go by the items on by one. Hopefully all crate and barrel explosions can be turned off, or just crates, capsules and barrels in general.