The Hypnotist
Smash Lord
What about Giga Bowser.
I'm sorry but items including smash Balls add luck to the game which is bad for competitive play. If I wanted luck in a game I'd play MK;DD or Mario Party 8.
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Items Deserve Consideration for Brawl Tourney Standards
- Thread starter Thinkaman
- Start date
I'm sorry but items including smash Balls add luck to the game which is bad for competitive play. If I wanted luck in a game I'd play MK;DD or Mario Party 8.
BigRick
Smash Master
Yeah what I meant by fair trial is not having ppl arguing over this.
I meant doing tournaments and stuff like that in order to gather evidence.
That's why I said that people should stop talking hehe
Lol bad argument on that one buddy...
Smash has been designed with the luck factor in mind.
Mario Kart is to Gran Turismo what Smash is to Street Fighter
dodoromeo
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2006
- Messages
- 106
Thinkaman has a real point, the non-flinchingness of some characters may do more than balance the heavier characters, however at this point we don't know enough to either endorse nor refute item consideration, share opinions, not a flame war on the opposing argument to the one that you are aligned with. OPEN MINDS PEOPLE!!
Jazriel
Smash Ace
You don't get it.
Let's say your smash ball spawns beside you.
First of all, the smash ball is floaty and evasive, which means you are now diverting attention to both the ball and your opponent.
Also, if you do grab the smash ball, your opponent can hit it out of you. This leads to intense mind games:
Should I rush the ball?
Should I make my way towards the ball?
Should I wait for him to get the ball?
Should I get the ball, let him take it out of me, and then take it back?
Should I get the ball and XXX
Should I get the ball and YYY
Should I let XXX get the ball at position YYY and then do ZZZ or AAA
There are so many possibilities, I wouldn't be surprised if in pro matches they just ignored it completely because they knew they would be too vulnerable.
And even if you were in a situation where you were guaranteed a final smash:
Edge hog invincibility frames > you
Jump -> Double Jump -> Up B > you
Mindgames > you
Final Smash's are just like Samus's charge shot. When are you going to use it? How are you going to use it? What position are you going to be in? Etc.
If they wanted a Final Smash = win, they would've just made the screen explode and everyone else dies.
LOL
KiddyDong
Smash Cadet
There are few instances where a final smash is 99% unavoidable (Giga Bowser or Peach), but FS's like Sonic or Pikachu or Red or Ike or MK or w/e can be avoided on a fairly large map.
That's right. We still haven't seen everyone's Final Smash, but none of them so far are an insta-kill. EVERY ONE OF THEM CAN BE DODGED OR BLOCKED ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. Pretty much, this means it is up to us to ban it or not. The game may even be more FUN with Smash Balls without being stupid and cheap. And what if you dodged it? What if you jumped over, airdodged, or in other ways avoided Samus' Final? That would leave her open to an attack, and especially if she had high precentages and was using the Final Smash as a last resort, she would pretty much be screwed. Although, she may respawn as Zero Suit...
The only problem is the random frequency. If you can turn down the frequency in the final game, I am all for Smash Balls, I don't care if the other items are legal or not. If like 3 Smash Balls appear in a 2 minute span, it's kinda gay. But if you are having an epic stock battle, and it goes on for like 10 minutes, then 2 or 3 or sometimes even 4 Smash Balls are okay IMO. The frequency should be turned down to at least 50%. But we have yet to see everyone's FS, and this is my opinion for now. FS ftw!!
That is not true whatsoever. Why would losing to a lesser skilled player that got a good item through speed (in which case items would mostly just play to speed) or an amazing item just showing up on top of a character and it winning the match mean it is the person that loses to the lesser skilled player's fault alone?
Consider the fact that a great item could just show up on top of the lesser skilled multiple times. This makes it more likely that they would win. Although there may be some skill in using whatever item it is not character specific and still can decide things more than once when it should not be that way. It could make a good character better and a worse character better but again it's all where it shows up. Speed will more likely get the use out of the item because in general they can get to it more. It's a terrible idea.
Classic-Black
Smash Journeyman
she does, it gets her suit back
KiddyDong
Smash Cadet
From what we know, its incredibly gay. All you do is turn back into Varia Suit Samus. (from what we know)I wonder if Zero Suit Samus has a Final Smash.
We could do that with zelda/shiek and we didnt even need anything special.
Tony_
Smash Ace
Luck is a factor in any game with competitive play. Saying otherwise makes you ignorant.
Takeshi245
Smash Champion
Adding random explosions from capsules and crates makes it even worse. To say otherwise makes you ignorant.
The Hypnotist
Smash Lord
The point is you want the least amount of luck as possible. And if you add items with out my request you get more luck, which is bad. Period.
Doc Chronic
Smash Ace
green shells FTW
BigRick
Smash Master
Wow... quoted for mutha****in truth!
Jazriel
Smash Ace
Sigh you people still don't get it.
Let's take melee. Playing with items. Assuming you're good.
Pokeball with ultimate-kill-everyone pokemon in it appears beside bad player.
Bad player picks up ultimate-kill-everyone pokemon
You get ready (he's bad so your superiour mind games inform you he's going to full jump and throw)
He full jumps and throws
You catch the pokeball with your superiour skills.
Toss back at bad player
Win
Accommodations for items have been implemented, it's just the uncontrollable you die items that suck. Random spawn bomb-ombs (I've dash attacked with Falco to have a bomb-omb spawn RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME) Exploding crates, etc. And things like hearts and crap are just lame. Why? Because they're uncontrollable. If you've combo'd your opponent and are about to kill them and they heal 100%? No. Dumb. Bad idea.
Oh yeah. You can't dodge Peach's FS? It's called jump.
Let's take melee. Playing with items. Assuming you're good.
Pokeball with ultimate-kill-everyone pokemon in it appears beside bad player.
Bad player picks up ultimate-kill-everyone pokemon
You get ready (he's bad so your superiour mind games inform you he's going to full jump and throw)
He full jumps and throws
You catch the pokeball with your superiour skills.
Toss back at bad player
Win
Accommodations for items have been implemented, it's just the uncontrollable you die items that suck. Random spawn bomb-ombs (I've dash attacked with Falco to have a bomb-omb spawn RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME) Exploding crates, etc. And things like hearts and crap are just lame. Why? Because they're uncontrollable. If you've combo'd your opponent and are about to kill them and they heal 100%? No. Dumb. Bad idea.
Oh yeah. You can't dodge Peach's FS? It's called jump.
Classic-Black
Smash Journeyman
problem is, if items still spawn randomly, and explodables can't be turned off (like crates and capsules in Melee) than they might as well stay off. These are generally what people complain about anyways, 'cause they're cheap. but to get rid of them, you get rid of all
Either way, we'll see when the game comes out.
Either way, we'll see when the game comes out.
I will say, I enjoy playing with items SOMETIMES (what can I say; the non-broken ones are fun), and I agree with you, Thinka. People shouldn't just write off items and immediately switch their frequency to "None" the moment they click the multiplayer option. I know that I'm not going to do that; I will use the items for myself and see which ones are unfair and which ones aren't (and let's face it: chances are it'll just be the same ones. Starman, Heart, Hammer/G.Hammer, Bumper, etc.)
Think of it this way. Let's say you play 1000 matches with somebody, and you win all but the 50th. You can say with accuracy backed up by logical proof that you are the superior player. But you lost. Your "skills" and superiority are clearly not in question, yet still you lost. It's not that your capabilities should have prevented loss-that's impossible-; it's that they make it more likely that you won't lose.
However, in the case of items, their properties can sometimes affect the game in ways that directly override the skill of another player. Ex. the Beam Sword's insane knockback if it's thrown at you and hits you mid-air.
You know as well as I do that that's simply not always true. There is more to skill than just what you can do. Ultimately skill boils down to what you actually do, which is in itself partially based on luck. It is possible to beat somebody who is better than you; it all depends on your style versus your opponent's, and the choices you make. Almost nobody who does anything performs with 100% of their capability, and even then sometimes people who are generally worse can still win.
Think of it this way. Let's say you play 1000 matches with somebody, and you win all but the 50th. You can say with accuracy backed up by logical proof that you are the superior player. But you lost. Your "skills" and superiority are clearly not in question, yet still you lost. It's not that your capabilities should have prevented loss-that's impossible-; it's that they make it more likely that you won't lose.
However, in the case of items, their properties can sometimes affect the game in ways that directly override the skill of another player. Ex. the Beam Sword's insane knockback if it's thrown at you and hits you mid-air.
I pose a question, then.
Let's say that Brawl allows you to alter the frequency of Pokemon appearances, and you disable all the truly broken ones, or you just disable PokeBalls altogether. What then?
Let's say you disable Bob-ombs. What then?
Let's say you disable exploding crates. What then?
Let's say you disable the HRB, Beam Sword, Hammers, Bumper, MSB, Poison Mushroom, Hearts and Starman. What then?
Some items in SSB are totally broken and could never ever be taken seriously for competitive play. But, if you disable those items, what then? Certain stages in Melee were banned due to popular demand; can not the same be done for certain items? Rather than just say: "No items!!!" and remove them all, let the community decide on which ones are too good and remove them. Which, of course, comes back to the whole point of this thread, or at least what I got out of it. We shouldn't just immediately say: "No items in Brawl tourneys!!!"; we should give the items their fair chance and exercise constructive judgment.
XCWarrior
Smash Apprentice
If items are used in the tournaments for Brawl, then they aren't Brawl tournaments. They are Soul Caliber II or Tekken or MK or whatever tournaments with Nintendo and 3rd party characters.
Items = Brawl, No Items = Any other fighter.
You can cry about luck all you want, but it's called part of the field. I think it's ******** weather and wind are turned off in Madden tournaments. It's not like they can do that in real life. It's the same kind of BS with this.
They are both wrong. And that's is why "pros" at any game aren't really pros of anything but the shell of the game.
Items = Brawl, No Items = Any other fighter.
You can cry about luck all you want, but it's called part of the field. I think it's ******** weather and wind are turned off in Madden tournaments. It's not like they can do that in real life. It's the same kind of BS with this.
They are both wrong. And that's is why "pros" at any game aren't really pros of anything but the shell of the game.
Classic-Black
Smash Journeyman
too bad you'd still lose if you tried to play one.
Items are an option, and don't have to be turned on to play, and some items retract from skill, since they are inherently broken.
Items are an option, and don't have to be turned on to play, and some items retract from skill, since they are inherently broken.
Team Giza
Smash Lord
I haven't seen any exploding capsules or boxes in all my time watching the demo videos. Some items will need to be turned off of coarse regardless to make it so its not complete luck. You can turn off all exploding items, obviously game turning items that don't let make your work if their ability and stuff like that. I think that it would be nice to have some item tournaments around but I think we should ban some items and get it all working.
Maybe even be able to choose just 3 items before the match. Each player (or team) chooses 3 items to turn on and those are the only items on during the game. Maybe with Final Smashes being on defaultly however. All other items would be off ands then you start the match.
Classic-Black
Smash Journeyman
I saw a couple, I know the exploding crates have a symbol plastered on the side of it, so it should be easier to avoid once it's landed on the stage. though If we can turn off the crates and barrels anyway, I wouldn't have a problem
and i'm pretty sure there are tournaments that have items in play, it's just not popular to do so
and i'm pretty sure there are tournaments that have items in play, it's just not popular to do so
Adi
Smash Lord
You realize the major reason for the banning of items in competitive tournaments is because even moreso of any broken qualities it has, it is the fact that no one in the competitive scene likes to play with them. Many of the items just get in the way of things and are so crappy that they are merely used as an additional projectile to throw.
If you want items in competitive tournaments so badly than host one yourself. You probably won't get much of a turnout but if there are good people there chances are they will own you.
If you want items in competitive tournaments so badly than host one yourself. You probably won't get much of a turnout but if there are good people there chances are they will own you.
Team Giza
Smash Lord
The fire symbol box is an item, it actually can come out of capsules... which means there is a huge chance that they can be turned off.
Some people in the competitive scene want Brawl to be a totally different game. If items can be there without being broken, then they will likely stay in. If you can work them all out in a strategic way it can work. The example I used earlier was actually an idea by DireVulcan, which shows that some high level players would actually enjoy the change.
Classic-Black
Smash Journeyman
I don't play competatively, I just don't like explodiny stuff mucking up my fun. plus i don't think there are many tourneys by me anyway.
regardless, if every item can be turned off, including the crates, than I could see certain Items being allowed. stuff like the smash ball, smoke balls, etc;
but people go off what they know. Items were banned in Melee tourneys for good reason, so most feel they can safely assume the same will be for Brawl. no-one knows until the game comes out though, but it is a safe bet o say they'll still be banned.
the smash ball is a possible exception
regardless, if every item can be turned off, including the crates, than I could see certain Items being allowed. stuff like the smash ball, smoke balls, etc;
but people go off what they know. Items were banned in Melee tourneys for good reason, so most feel they can safely assume the same will be for Brawl. no-one knows until the game comes out though, but it is a safe bet o say they'll still be banned.
the smash ball is a possible exception
Are there competitive games that have items that aren't turned off in tournaments. Is Mario kart considered one. Why is there a larger tourney scene for Mario kart than a pure racer like F-zero gx (does it even have a following). Bomberman, another one?
i'll be addressing this in one of my next couple video blogs
Rx-
A.K.A. Disafter
I hope items get a chance in Brawl. I totally understood how they failed in Melee, but they really added a change to the game when used, and their removal from the tournament scene caused lots of controversy for casual players trying to make the chance to competitive.
lol. Another example of somebody who joined 2 weeks ago rehashing all of the arguments that have been flattened dozens of times.
First of all, if you don't recognize that Smash is 100 times deeper than Mortal Kombat or Soul Calibur ever dreamed of, you don't understand the game very well.
Second, go to a tournament and tell the people there that they are only good because they limit stages and items. Many of them will gladly let you choose the stage and item settings before giving you the biggest beating of your life.
Oh, and when you go to the tournament, make sure you tell them that it's wrong for them to play Brawl with the settings where they have the most fun.
lethminite
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2007
- Messages
- 163
removing the word item.
there are lots of competitive games that have a large element of luck, and a lot of the skill in them are based on minimising luck, and integrating it into how you play.
poker and Magic:TG are 2 such games. as well as most casino games, and anything with a roll of a dice.
items were banned, not because luck is bad, but because they were more beneficial to the top tier characters then the lower tier, and that they were too swingy.
having items play a part, but not where getting one can undo 20% of their game, or do 20% of your game for you, can be a good thing, letting you play in a way that means you have to look out of items, adapting how you play as luck plays out.
it's 2 different games with and with out items, testing 2 different skills, one is raw strategy, one is adaptive strategy.
i personally think, that if items can be made part of the competitive scene with out unbalancing the game, even if it's not every tournament, it would be a good thing.
Ogre_Deity_Link
Smash Lord
Tourneys prollly STILL won't include items.
And that makes me a sad panda.
(P.S. why is it that competitive players think that having a "casual" tourney will not have very many players? Are you guys the only people who'd like to play against others? Are casuals just too lazy to leave their rooms or something...?)
And that makes me a sad panda.
(P.S. why is it that competitive players think that having a "casual" tourney will not have very many players? Are you guys the only people who'd like to play against others? Are casuals just too lazy to leave their rooms or something...?)
NES n00b
Smash Master
Yes actually. They won't drive long distances. So any casuals coming would be in that town. How many people do you know who play smash that would go to any kind of tourney anyways?
Yeah . . . . . .
Lol a casual tourney won't work, because someone that isn't a casual player is likely to go, just to win.
Casual tournament = inviting some mates around to play, nothing official. Anything beyond that will deteriorate from casual and light hearted before you can say "OHSHI-"
Casual tournament = inviting some mates around to play, nothing official. Anything beyond that will deteriorate from casual and light hearted before you can say "OHSHI-"
Team Giza
Smash Lord
I've seen casual tournaments at a school with more than 100 people. >.>;
Red Exodus
Smash Master
Are you paying to play for money? No? Then don't bother arguing. Play the game the way you want and ignore us and play the way you want.
I doubt you'd react the same way if you lost $10 000 because a capsule landed on your attack.
There should be both item and none item tournaments but the items should be checked out in terms of brokeness.
notftomearth7
Smash Lord
Okay, let me address both sides of the arguement here, there are some serious competitive Smash Bros player out there, so on behalf of them I say that even if there were items that were taken into consideration, they would all be banned in serious tourneys. That would also be the most logical answer (Note: I am a casual player, but friends who are competitive have addressed this.)
Okay, my other opinion is....
Items that should be banned
Poke Ball (To cheap, they do almost all the work for you.)
Bob-ombs (To much damage)
Food ( Life preservation)
Star (See above)
Hammer (Two much damage)
Hearts (See Food)
Maxim Tomato (See above)
Lip's Stick. (They directly affect the Damage count without the player doing much, which could be considered cheap by some players.)
Okay, my other opinion is....
Items that should be banned
Poke Ball (To cheap, they do almost all the work for you.)
Bob-ombs (To much damage)
Food ( Life preservation)
Star (See above)
Hammer (Two much damage)
Hearts (See Food)
Maxim Tomato (See above)
Lip's Stick. (They directly affect the Damage count without the player doing much, which could be considered cheap by some players.)
Team Giza
Smash Lord
Woah at putting Lip Stick there. You have to hit with it for it to do damage and you can wiggle out of it. It is just damage over time instead of all at once.