Items Deserve Consideration for Brawl Tourney Standards

[Dizzynecro]

No....there is not more to it than that....

Listen...

If you make the statement that someone is lesser-skilled, they are lesser, but to whom? Obviously the person they face, making the opposing person "skilled."

If you lose to a lesser-skilled player, it is not because of any items, or flukes, or anything. It has nothing to do with "luck." You lose because you were not skilled enough to stop it from happening. If you were truly SKILLED, you could have prevented it from happening, because after all, people with skills can **** with both items and not correct?

That's my point. My beef is not with the items, but the fact that people are trying to make excuses for their lack of not being able to beat someone who, to them, is "lesser-skilled."

No johns, I believe is the phrase.

You sir only think in absolutes. There are verying amounts of lesser and greater skill and if some awfull player has a starman land on their head every time they spawn and they keep getting to bombs and food constantly they could very well win even if they are much less skilled.

 

[Red Exodus]

People should just host tournaments with and without items.

Problem solved.

 

[BigRick]

I think ppl should read the first post and stop talking.

He is only asking for a fair trial...

 

[EpicE]

Items in torny are stupid, it was proven in Melee when asshats would just run away and hope they would get lucky with a good item to beat their opponent went, tornys should be about skill with the character and how well you can use him alone against someone else, items ruin that.

Edit: I just felt like saying this -.-

 

[Red Exodus]

@ BigRick

Which is why there could be two types of tournaments. You would rather have a Wavedashing-in-Brawl-esque problem where people keep beating the topic to death?

No one would be forced to play with or without items. That's the way it should be.

 

[THEmSHAKE]

Well.... it seems most people here still think brawl is going to be meler 2.0 and is basing their opinions on that. Its simple, he is saying that items should be tested in brawl for tourny play. Yet, some want to dismiss this idea based on experiences on a different game. Yes, it IS different. Yes, they could very well be right in that items just make things worse, but until the game come out there is no hard evidence that this is true.

Consider this. If you want someone's opinion, who's would you repect more. Some guy who looks at every angle, conciders every possibility in a logical light, and then give thier opinion or someone with oldman syndrome who give his opinion without really considering anything new and gives the classic counter point *oldman syndrome* "well, back in my day sonny" or "back in melee".

While all opinions have value, some can be more valuable than others. Think about the value of your post before you make it. Are you really contributing or are you trying to talk about "the good ole days"?

 

[Level 9]

"Walks into topic & takes a look around"

...

....

..... "Runs away screaming like a mad man"


Well... Just my two cents here even though by the looks of this thread so far I'm more likely then not wasting my & someone else's time just by posting this...

I'm willing to bet that there vary well might be quite a few characters in Brawl that more or less where made to relie on the random spawning items in order to be a little more balanced comparatively with others... And while thats perfectly fine & all for the kinda game that smash is, it's just not good for tournament play where people spend hours and hours of practicing there craft only for it to not make any difference at all in there game thanks to a string of bad luck... No amount of practicing can prepare you for every kind of possible random happening while your mind is off focusing on your opponents next move in the heat of battle...

As for those less fortunate characters who are at some kind of disadvantage comparatively to the others... We have a name for them... There called LOW TIERS... It in no way makes them bad, just less useful in competitive play...

 

[Livvers]

Well.... it seems most people here still think brawl is going to be meler 2.0 and is basing their opinions on that. Its simple, he is saying that items should be tested in brawl for tourny play. Yet, some want to dismiss this idea based on experiences on a different game. Yes, it IS different. Yes, they could very well be right in that items just make things worse, but until the game come out there is no hard evidence that this is true.

It is a different game, but it's still Smash at it's base, and how much could items really vary from one game to the next?

I can never really see items as being balanced, because if gives a character an advantage that it doesn't normally have. And in battles with two equally skilled, or slightly varied skilled players, and item can definately help one person too much. I agree with EpicE that "tornys should be about skill with the character and how well you can use him alone against someone else, items ruin that."

 

[LavisFiend]

You sir only think in absolutes. There are verying amounts of lesser and greater skill and if some awfull player has a starman land on their head every time they spawn and they keep getting to bombs and food constantly they could very well win even if they are much less skilled.

I may talk in absolutes, but you speak in extreme varaibles that are just shy of being unrealistic.

It is not a excuse, you can't HAVE ONE against a lesser-skilled player. If he is lesser-skilled, than you are "skilled," so you should be able to prevent the outcome because, despite popular thought, the world does not cease to spin because someone grabbed an item....

It is no different from a scrub making excuses, because it IS AN EXCUSE.

 

[Zek]

Honestly, I think items are still going to be off in most Brawl tournies regardless of balance, because competitive players just don't like them. I prefer playing items off too, not because I think they make the game unfair(which they do, once in a while) but because I simply think it's more fun to play exclusively with a character's own personal abilities rather than picking up items that are the same for everybody.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

My main problem with your items suggestion is that it will be very difficult to draw the line as to what items should remain and even more difficult to explain that reasoning to everyone.

Unfortunately, Brawl also seems to be introducing even more uber items than melee. Spicy Curry and an even better hammer among many others.

To those who don't think such uber items are that bad, you also should consider how if a smash ball spawns while you're uber powered up, your opponent is even more screwed. Some of these items cause a cascading effect because your opponent can't do anything but run, giving you free rein over all the other items that spawn. Even great pokemon can cause this effect.

This will be a problem. It already has been one at E for All. In one game I got a star, then a spicy, curry, then a smash ball in succession. At no point could my opponent interrupt this domination, because he had to run away from me at all times. Since I was then Sonic and then became Super Sonic that means my opponent basically couldn't even touch me for like 40 s during which time I took him down two stock. You can pretty much substitute in any other uber item and the same thing chain like effect will occur.

A two stock+plus chain of uber items is way too much a determining factor.

Attack replacing items have also been significantly improved and are no longer virtually only useful for throwing like it was in melee. They could probably also easily determine the course of a match.

If you eliminate pokeballs, stars, curry, mushrooms, MK lightning, all recovery items, all hammers, all attack replaicng items ... it begins to seem questionable as to why you're even bothering with items.

 

[Fearthesmash]

I do believe they deserve a fair trial when the game comes out.

That said, many things which have already been released tend to lean toward a noob friendly game, and yes the stupid people who think brawl is melee 2.0 are right in saying that items will probably be broken noob friendly crap yet again.

However, Sakurai is a smart man, therefore there is a distinct possibility that they won't be, or that only a couple(which we can turn off easily) will be truly broken.

For those saying items never have been balanced and never will be, please stfu, get a brain, realize your an idiot who presumes far too much, then proceed to commit suicide. Smash will never be truly balanced, was Fox's shine balanced in melee? completely a matter of friggin opinion, believe it or not YOUR opinion whoever you may be is not worth more than some scrubs simply because you spent more time playing the game than he did.

Lastly, using items requires a different type of skill. will those that hate items ever acknowledge it exists? most guaranteedly not. However items can turn an otherwise completely worthless character into actually someone. As a somewhat poor example, but true none the less. Roy in melee can D-tilt to homerun a space animal at every percentage below 200. Does it take skill to get the item in the first place andf land this rediculously simple combo? Yes, it does take some; does it require as much skill as pillaring and SHL'ing someone as Falco? see my paragraph above, its about friggin opinion.

In conclusion, Yes they do entirely deserve a fair and well thought out trial by compeditive players before they are banned, as do all courses; however stupid they may appear to be.

 

[Igneous42]

The verdict is alreay in, I lost (and won) multiple matches at EforAll due to items. Though I hope smash balls stay on., but I doubt they will.

 

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

The only true problems I had with the items in melee were that, when thrown, they would completely and utterly (most of the time, anyways) kill you when you were above 100 percent. My friends wanted on all homerun bats, which would have been cool, but they turned it on very high and then proceeded to just pick them up and chuck them at me. It's annoying as h*ll. Those bats kill you at like 80 (even 60 to 70) percent when chucked at you, wtf. A bat should not be as powerful as a bomb-omb explosion, sorry.

 

[Takalth]

I may talk in absolutes, but you speak in extreme varaibles that are just shy of being unrealistic.

It is not a excuse, you can't HAVE ONE against a lesser-skilled player. If he is lesser-skilled, than you are "skilled," so you should be able to prevent the outcome because, despite popular thought, the world does not cease to spin because someone grabbed an item....

It is no different from a scrub making excuses, because it IS AN EXCUSE.

Your method of arguing is to start by changing the defintion of words. Skill is not a boolean value where you either have it or you don't. EVERYBODY has skill, just in varying amounts. If I play 100 matches against you and you win 55, I am less-skilled than you. If we play 100 matches and you win 99, I am less-skilled than you.

In the first case, all I need is a lucky item, and I will probably beat you, despite being less skilled. In the second case, I'm pretty much doomed with any even remotely reasonable item luck.

Now, to the original post. Remember who decides what tournament rules are...It's the host. What do you have to do to be a host? Provide a location and create a tournament thread. I am more than willing to give items a shot, but you can't just sit back and try to persuade other people to host item tournaments. You need to set one up yourself.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

I agree with the TC, but laugh at all the scrubs dismissing items completely.

One thing though: there's stage creation, and with that, the possible ability to control item spawn points. Would created stages be fair? Also what about spawn points? Could it be said that having spawn points cuts down the luck factor in items significantly?

 

[Thinkaman]

Not really posting on the thread, just making a comment on the condescending nature of this highly annoying statement.

Judging by the content of this thread (I did read it all the way through), it would seem that you guys are far to wrapped up in yourselves to make a plausible educated generalization about the level of intelligence of those who disagree with you.

At no point did I say that people who disagree with me are morons. People who make threads crying "WTF y dont u guys play with items in melee?!?!" are, and that is all I said.

Otherwise, I think we have gotten away from the topic at hand.

No one wants overpowered items in competitive brawl. No stars, no hearts/tomatoes, no hammers, no curry. We all agree on this, since it is very obvious. The topic at hand is if we want lesser items.

My main problem with your items suggestion is that it will be very difficult to draw the line as to what items should remain and even more difficult to explain that reasoning to everyone.

If we can do it for stages, we can do it for items. This is the least of our problems.

In fact, think of it like stages. If we were boring, we would play only on FD and Battlefield. However, we like variety, so that players have maximum room to show their skill. As a community, we decided what stages in Melee to play on, both random and counterpick. We could have just left it at FD and BF, but we didn't. We could have just left items completely off... and we did. That's what we agreed was best.

In Brawl, we will decide again which stages to play on. We could just pick Battlefield and Final Destination (safe assumption it's in...), but will will probably pick more too. We will also decide what items to use, if any. The point of this topic is, keep an open mind: we might play the game and decide we do want certain items.

Stars and hammers are the Flatzone of items: no one is even remotely arguing for their use.

 

[Superninjabreadman]

Thinkaman... any sarcasim in the Sig?

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, heh, nope.

 

[Sprigginz_Caldo]

Sure, everything deserves consideration. I like the point that you made about if Bowser is top tier, other quick, weak characters will need items to supplement their moveset. So of course items didn't work well in Melee because...well...Bowser was bottom tier, and quick characters were on top. Kudos!

 

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

I may talk in absolutes, but you speak in extreme varaibles that are just shy of being unrealistic.

It is not a excuse, you can't HAVE ONE against a lesser-skilled player. If he is lesser-skilled, than you are "skilled," so you should be able to prevent the outcome because, despite popular thought, the world does not cease to spin because someone grabbed an item....

It is no different from a scrub making excuses, because it IS AN EXCUSE.

Only a sith deals in absolutes.

hahaha. getting off now. Time to play Metroid Prime 3! Yeah!

 

[Thinkaman]

Exactly; we know so little of the picture because we have so little hands on experience with the game. For all we know, Bowser and heavies COULD be top-tier, but we may find items are most advantageous to them even if other players can grab them first! (Let's say they can automatically grab items with their "heavy" invincible frames on air attacks, I dunno.) In that case, we might end up banning items just like in Melee, to keep the overpowered characters from being more overpowered, lol.

All it boils down to is that we will see the balance with items and without, and pick which one we like better.

 

[Sundown]

Roy in melee can D-tilt to homerun a space animal at every percentage below 200. Does it take skill to get the item in the first place andf land this rediculously simple combo? Yes, it does take some; does it require as much skill as pillaring and SHL'ing someone as Falco? see my paragraph above, its about friggin opinion.

Thats not about "friggin opinion".. thats about common sense, the hand speed and button presses required to pillar someone, to do fox's drill shine, or (one of my favorites) to pillar someone with peach (yes it can be done), are WAY MORE than the hand-eye-finger speed required to do a down tilt and then a forward smash with the homerun bat with Roy. And NO ITS NOT AN OPINION, IT IS A FACT, the TECHINCAL SKILL IS WAY BIGGER.

Thats it, just making a comment aboutyour comment, dont try to add depth and skill where there is none.

 

[Mic_128]

The majority of all Brawl tournaments for a while after BRawl's launch will have everything on, all items, all stages and then after a while see what happens.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'd say that's for the best.

 

[The Hypnotist]

To the TC I understand where you are going and I really hope you read this and address what I'm saying. Items will only work if...

Crates and Capsules can be turned off
No overpowered items
No healing items
ALL ITEMS SPAWN IN A PATTERN! This is very important, otherwise it was just luck that you got the item.
You'd have to be able to set specific frequencies for how often each item appears. That means you could have bombs on but Mr. Saturns would appear 3 times more than them.
Very Low amount

Unless these things happen (which they most likely won't) then not only will I not want items on competitive play but we won't see them. Because we don't want to add luck to this game.

 

[GhostAnime]

Lavis, if a player was trying to get back to the ledge but a hammer suddenly drops near the edge-guarder and he uses it, does the player who tried to recovered but had absolutely no chance of coming back have less skill?

how about a player attempting/finishing a combo but an exploding capsule appears in front of them. the combo attempter has higher %, so he dies first. is he less skilled?

you have to consider situations like this instead of speaking in absolutes.

 

[LavisFiend]

Lavis, if a player was trying to get back to the ledge but a hammer suddenly drops near the edge-guarder and he uses it, does the player who tried to recovered but had absolutely no chance of coming back have less skill?

how about a player attempting/finishing a combo but an exploding capsule appears in front of them. the combo attempter has higher %, so he dies first. is he less skilled?

you have to consider situations like this instead of speaking in absolutes.

You obviously misintrepreted what I said; I never said those who lose are lesser-skilled. I said you can't make excuses for your loss in regards to an assumed lesser-skilled player. To dub someone lesser-skilled, lose, and make an excuse, is the most pathetic thing you can do.

An EXCUSE, will always be an EXCUSE....

QUIT.MAKING.EXCUSES!

Sheesh, having to repeat what I say everytime is getting so **** aggravating...

 

[GhostAnime]

you can make excuses if you've been proven to beat the players 10 times in a row but having a few unlucky incidents help the other player win that could have easily happened to the other guys.

 

[LavisFiend]

you can make excuses if you've been proven to beat the players 10 times in a row but having a few unlucky incidents help the other player win that could have easily happened to the other guys.

No, you can't.

If you go into a match with items on, YOU KNOW ABOUT THE ITEMS, AND YOU KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE A POSSIBILITY OF EXPLODING CRATES AND BOXES.

 

[GhostAnime]

knowing the possibility is there doesn't stop unlucky incidents. there are variables you just can't simply control.

 

[The Hypnotist]

LavisFiend is right.

And not only that, you'd have to know EXACTLY when and where the items would spawn so it's no 1 stock left and luckily a bomb spawns randomly next to someone who uses it to win. Items would only work if they didn't bring luck to the game. Period.

 

[The Hypnotist]

knowing the possibility is there doesn't stop unlucky incidents. there are variables you just can't simply control.

But you want to have a few as possible. Adding items just adds more luck.

 

[GhostAnime]

... um, you're arguing against me why? we agree on the same thing.

 

[Spellman]

There's always going to be awesome items that give you great advantages. What would be the point in picking one up if it were some weak normal item that doesn't improve your attacks at all? If the item you pick up can't bend the battle in your favor, (i.e. combo set up, K.O, or something defensive) then they'd be banned anyways for taking up space and/or lagging up the game.

I've beat people who've picked up numerous heart containers and Maxim Tomatoes, and I've taken hits from exploding capsules during matches, and still won. As Peach. Once upon a time, when I sucked more, I wouldn't have been able to beat someone who had that much luck, but now I can.

 

[The Hypnotist]

... um, you're arguing against me why? we agree on the same thing.

I dunno, I'm quoting the wrong people... I'm soooo tired. The point is items shouldn't be in competitive play unless we know exactly where they land at exactly what time which isn't going to happen.

 

[Twisted]

Only a sith deals in absolutes.

Lmao that was great.

Back on topic, why is everybody arguing? The whole point of this thread is that we CAN'T argue because we DON'T know anything because THE GAME HAS NOT EVEN COME OUT YET!

 

[Johnknight1]

No, you can't.

If you go into a match with items on, YOU KNOW ABOUT THE ITEMS, AND YOU KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE A POSSIBILITY OF EXPLODING CRATES AND BOXES.

Never saw a single one in any of the E for All videos in Brawl, so that concern is gone. For realz, it should be a tournament option, because items like the beam sword, home-run bat, fan (throwing all of them), TEH BUMPER (best item ever b**ches!), Gooey Bomb, Proxy Mine, hell even the Smash Ball/Final Smash and Banana Peel can involve some strategy to it. I don't understand this "zomg! Items are about luck only" crap for Brawl. That was in Melee, this is Brawl. No one ever says in Halo it's cheap when certain items (weapons) respond in certain places. Items in Brawl (from what I cna tell) involve adapting to your enviornments, and giving you more options of attack, defense, timing, combos, and whatnot.

In other words, they all seem to have mutiple uses. TEH BUMPER is a combo machine, and a awsome edge guarder. The proxy mine is good for hiting opponents against things in a single hit, or for combos. the beam sword enhances your A moveset range (and probably power, but not too drastically), for throwing as a projectile, and can be mindgamed via are you going to smack them via Melee attack, or chuck it? Pitfall is like a GOOD version of Donkey Kong's fB, and can be used like a placed proxy mine in that sense.

Simply put, unskilled people won't have the advantage if we limit the used items to throwing items, mine-like weapons, and (physical) weapons (I'm very unsure on long range weaopns and guns), and we limit them to low or very low. Simply put, it's using your enviornments to youradvantage-like Advanced Techs, but diffrent, and in limited number. I've always wanted to see the diffrence of pros playing with items-to compare and contrast with them playing without items. In Melee, items sucked thanks to explosions. In Brawl, that needs to change. Hopefully everyone making and helping on Brawl realize a lot of the things with Melee's items were stupid, and continue to add some awsome items. If items are tournament legal-there needs to be minimal of them, definitely. No one wants the Super Spicy Curry, Hammer, bomb-ombs, or Golden Hammer=overopwered, stupid, and should die! XD

 

[The Hypnotist]

Halo =/= Smash

How would you feel if you were going against me for 10,000 bucks. We're down to one stock, and a smash ball happens to spawn right next to me, and I'm playing as bowser. Wouldn't you be upset. Items bring luck to the game (which is bad). It would work if the items spawned in the same places in a pattern at the same time but otherwise no.

 

[RedKnight]

I can understand not wanting items in THAT situation

Plus if youre skiled you can avoid a Final Smash, depending on the size of the stage

Though I do sorta agree in the Smash Ball Situation but other items can be just fine