Items Deserve Consideration for Brawl Tourney Standards

[FreakyVoiceDude]

Smash Balls may become the new exception for some, but if I had to guess I'd lean towards item-less tourneys in the long-run. Exploding containers are the reason I stopped using them years ago, same with most players out there if they play long enough. Amazing how a simple programming command created this entire conflict culture throughout the casual and competitive ranks...If they flesh out item switch into being able to control the explosive containers or containers all together, it would be like turning off the gas shortage or some other major argument topic.

A few hours of programming and testing, would save years of complaining and restricting an extensive feature of the game from being enjoyed. A couple days of google searches could tell the staff all they need to know about Melee's long term flaws. A simple 'Containers: Off' option could draw people back into playing and mastering items.

What I'd like to see in Brawl, is a shift back towards 'weapons' over items. Back in the day on 64, I loved the Beam Sword and fought as much as possible with it. Melee came out, and I was disappointed to find mostly effect items and other oddities. I'd take anything from the Starfox Staff to a big sword, as long as it's something that can be mastered as an in-game weapon. Actually give people options when going for a weapon. Let's say it's a comically big sword, Final Fantasy style. One on one in a bigger stage...Are you kidding me? Close-up with three other players killing each other, reap the fields! What if I'm better with the staff than the big sword? That gives me priority, to the point I'd throw the sword away (Off a ledge, or to my opponent if I'm feeling duel-ish) to get the staff.

If they had the foresight to add an odd coincidence where two extremely usable items to drop on opposite sides of a stage...That little jump from bare combat to an item war may add depth to casual gameplay, possibly (barely) reaching competitive circles.

Being a bloodthirsty gentleman, I'd like to see one pivotal moment where the two players stop, switch items so each has their favorite, and they proceed to go full force for an extended match.

Being honest though, tourneys would ditch the whole mess and keep them around for parties and casuals.

 

[Spellman]

What I'd like to see in Brawl, is a shift back towards 'weapons' over items. Back in the day on 64, I loved the Beam Sword and fought as much as possible with it.

lol, I gotta admit, I do like those items too. It's great when two beam swords happen to drop, and we have a beam sword fight until one of us get's sick of getting beaten up and biff's it at the other person.

 

[iMichael]

It cracks me up seeing item supporters throw this comment out there. If you people are truly "pro", you'd know how to survive without your CRUTCH.

We should keep it like Melee. No need for items, I appreciate Masahiro and all his hard work on the items. Hammers?, Hearts?, Lipstick?, Poke'mon?, Assist Trophies? Yeah it's all cool for fun, but how is it competitive when half the battle you were being assisted by a Hammer bro or Grey Fox?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The point is that MORE does not always equal BETTER.

 

[GhostAnime]

I'll still play most of my matches without items. Smash Balls, maybe, but I'd prefer to just keep it character vs character.

 

[Doc Chronic]

what about just playing "limited" items?

 

[Erimir]

I don't get why people don't seem to be open to even having separate item/no-item tourneys.

I personally play with certain items on a lot of the time (mainly the melee weapons and green shells), and so I got pretty good at throwing items as a strategy (e.g. aim, and catching bats and such when they bounce off the opponent). When I play against a lot of people, and not just people who normally play with items off, it's in their interest to have items off because my item throwing skills are better than theirs. For example, I was just at home and played against my brother, who was fairly evenly matched (but still in my favor) when we had items off, then he complained because he likes items, so we turned them on and I beat him without losing a stock in the next match partly off the back of repeat throw/catch with the bat and throwing at him while he was recovering.

Point being that I accept the randomness of items being on, but I think that having skill using, avoiding and shielding the items (and skill in general) will a lot of the time outweigh the randomness (with certain items, that is).

If it's possible to do it properly (i.e. remove exploding containers), I don't see why it wouldn't be fine for some tourneys to allow them. And some of the randomness could be alleviated by playing the matches with higher stock, since then there is more time to make up for luck. And stocks probably would go down faster with items anyway, so it'd be fine as far as time. Of course, there's still randomness as to which item falls, but there's still the possibility of one-item matches too (imagine picking items as well as stages).

 

[Revven]

I don't get why people don't seem to be open to even having separate item/no-item tourneys.

I personally play with certain items on a lot of the time (mainly the melee weapons and green shells), and so I got pretty good at throwing items as a strategy (e.g. aim, and catching bats and such when they bounce off the opponent). When I play against a lot of people, and not just people who normally play with items off, it's in their interest to have items off because my item throwing skills are better than theirs. For example, I was just at home and played against my brother, who was fairly evenly matched (but still in my favor) when we had items off, then he complained because he likes items, so we turned them on and I beat him without losing a stock in the next match partly off the back of repeat throw/catch with the bat and throwing at him while he was recovering.

Point being that I accept the randomness of items being on, but I think that having skill using, avoiding and shielding the items (and skill in general) will a lot of the time outweigh the randomness (with certain items, that is).

If it's possible to do it properly (i.e. remove exploding containers), I don't see why it wouldn't be fine for some tourneys to allow them. And some of the randomness could be alleviated by playing the matches with higher stock, since then there is more time to make up for luck. And stocks probably would go down faster with items anyway, so it'd be fine as far as time. Of course, there's still randomness as to which item falls, but there's still the possibility of one-item matches too (imagine picking items as well as stages).

I do the same things with items. No matter what item, I almost always throw it at my opponent with a lot of skill and timing to trick them into it (and then catching it again). It's fun, for a little while, until your opponent gets sick of it and requests that items be turned off. That aside, items aren't too bad if they're toned down more on the throwing frenzy and if the exploding crates/capsules are labeled (like we've seen a couple of times now in pics and videos).

Hopefully though, we can get rid of the exploding crates/capsules altogether.

 

[Psydon]

I don't get why people don't seem to be open to even having separate item/no-item tourneys.

I think it's just because of a potential backlash towards such a concept actually being implemented. By which I mean: people show up to the itemless tourneys and not the item tourneys. ><;

There's always going to be awesome items that give you great advantages. What would be the point in picking one up if it were some weak normal item that doesn't improve your attacks at all? If the item you pick up can't bend the battle in your favor, (i.e. combo set up, K.O, or something defensive) then they'd be banned anyways for taking up space and/or lagging up the game.

I've beat people who've picked up numerous heart containers and Maxim Tomatoes, and I've taken hits from exploding capsules during matches, and still won. As Peach. Once upon a time, when I sucked more, I wouldn't have been able to beat someone who had that much luck, but now I can.

1. Every item is useful, but let's face it, some are just downright evil (Bumper) and others are broken altogether (Starman, Hammer, healing items, etc.). Yes, it is true, every item you pick up would bend the battle in your favour, but you have to consider the specifics of each item. There are plenty of items that, while they can be a boon, won't be considered too much of a boon to your opponent. And that's the issue at hand here.

People keep talking about the powerful items and containers, but if we were to get rid of all those, then the question must be asked: ought we to give what remains a chance?

I, for one, don't really care all that much if somebody grabs a Fire Flower or a Green Shell. A Ray Gun, however, is a completely different story. One good shot with that thing and you can easily clear people off of the stage.

2. I've beat people who've picked up healing items as well and I've beat people even after taking hits from exploding capsules. But nevertheless, in a competitive scene it is simply too much for the other player to stomach if all of a sudden one player loses 100%. Competitive players, you gotta remember, don't want any bull****. They want their Smash to be absolutely fair and free of even the slightest thing they could complain about. That's why FD, boring as it is, is so popular. It's that same mentality that's the prime reason (moreso than the broken items and containers) why items were banned in the first place; that notion of absolutely nothing getting in the way--just the battlefield, you and your opponent. It's for that very reason, and just general sensibility, that healing items aren't so smart of an inclusion (besides, people can camp the items when they appear-even moreso if item appearances had a set pattern-and some characters are better at camping than others).

 

[Alex Tcp]

Buzz already mentioned this threat was about tournament play. As for at home, ever consider the fact some people just don't like items, regardless of whether they win or lose?

I turned off items after my fight match in melee, simply because I have more fun without them.

maybe people who like items can't handle winning without a crutch? [/sarcasm]

Ok, sry I just slowly walk away now

 

[Psydon]

Buzz already mentioned this threat was about tournament play. As for at home, ever consider the fact some people just don't like items, regardless of whether they win or lose?

I turned off items after my fight match in melee, simply because I have more fun without them.

maybe people who like items can't handle winning without a crutch? [/sarcasm]

I know you're being sarcastic but I'll answer this seriously for those who really think that way.

I don't think anybody could deny that. I like items, too, and there are times I don't want to play with them. Not that I have the same feeling about level selection (Big Blue FTW).

But I don't think there's any player out there that "can't handle winning without a crutch"? That's just a cop-out, and I hate it when people say that. Even completely new players on their first match wouldn't fully base their fighting style around items; it just wouldn't work.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I just don't understand this whole notion that "removing items is not true skill". I don't know anyone with true skill since nine times out of ten, item-supporters absolutely suck if items are turned off. Obviously, the competitive community is not the only group of players in need of training. >_>

They think that items can co exist in the competative community and still be balanced. Just because there are various ways to avoid an item doesn't mean that one will automaticlly and instantaneously take action during the givin time. These hypothesis that people keep ranting on about are completely situational. Even if that isn't the case, most items have a level of imbalanced that can't be solved just by simply "dodging". An example would be the Spicy Curry item; very broken.

 

[Mambo]

Items would be too much of a pain to implement I think. You'd have to agree with a few items off, like super star, heart container, tomato, etc. For that matter, I don't really see final smashes in either. But in my personal play, you betcha there will be items/final smashes.

 

[Tony_]

I will laugh when you can't turn off items for online play.

 

[UncleGrandfather]

I'm almost against including Items in tournament play just because it will take so long to figure out which ones to include that it would just be easier to play completely without them.
I'm all for items, but it will take a long time to argue over which ones should be included and which ones shouldn't. It would be much easier to just not include them at all.

Too bad there's no way that will happen, there will always be an argument about it.

 

[DonkeyPirate]

my friends and I turned off items before we even heard of competetive smash. they just get in the way. items are too random to be in comp play. the idea of competetive play is to see who is the most skilled player, not to see who is the luckiest. thats why certain stages are removed also.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

my friends and I turned off items before we even heard of competetive smash. they just get in the way. items are too random to be in comp play. the idea of competetive play is to see who is the most skilled player, not to see who is the luckiest. thats why certain stages are removed also.

I was the same way before learning about competitive play. That is why competitive play appealed to me so much. It shared many of my ideals!

 

[Ferio_Kun]

I agree with Lavis on every point.

If you lose 1/9 games because of a random item spawning and the "lesser-skilled" player getting it. You really need to get over it. You can't win all the time. It's unhealthy.

Everyone diserves to have fun and win. NOBODY can win 100% of the time. Even if you win that player 60% of the time, be happy that you win AND be happy that he/she won.

If you can't have a good laugh at having a bomb spawn on you, you really need to take a look at the world, in the big picture. It just doesn't matter if you win. The game is made to entertain you, so let the game do it's job.

Everyone wants to win. But when Brawl comes out I know that 90% of you are going to be SO suprised that you get beat more then half the time. With or without items won't make any difference in this case.

There will always be someone better then you. Items don't affect the game so much as to change the fact that online you will loose the majority of the time. Or win the majority of the time. Item require skill as much as knowing your character.

Yes there are overpowered items, but they aren't so horribly overpowered that you can't avoid them. With enough skill, you can avoid any item, in any situation.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I agree with Lavis on every point.

If you lose 1/9 games because of a random item spawning and the "lesser-skilled" player getting it. You really need to get over it. You can't win all the time. It's unhealthy.

Everyone diserves to have fun and win. NOBODY can win 100% of the time. Even if you win that player 60% of the time, be happy that you win AND be happy that he/she won.

If you can't have a good laugh at having a bomb spawn on you, you really need to take a look at the world, in the big picture. It just doesn't matter if you win. The game is made to entertain you, so let the game do it's job.

Everyone wants to win. But when Brawl comes out I know that 90% of you are going to be SO suprised that you get beat more then half the time. With or without items won't make any difference in this case.

There will always be someone better then you. Items don't affect the game so much as to change the fact that online you will loose the majority of the time. Or win the majority of the time. Item require skill as much as knowing your character.

Yes there are overpowered items, but they aren't so horribly overpowered that you can't avoid them. With enough skill, you can avoid any item, in any situation.

This is all fine and dandy when you are playing at home with friends and people's ego's are hurt when they cannot seem to win after a dozen matches. I agree that friends should not have to be destroyed match after match because the game is no fun at that point. However, when it comes to playing in a competitive environment (which is what this topic is about), that kind of randomness is unacceptable. You are basically stating that in a basketball game, I have the right to demand free shots since I haven't scored in a while. Life's not fair. Practice so you win more. If you don't like that, don't play with competitive players with competitive rule sets. Just play at home with your friends with items on. Why come online to dictate to the competitive community how "wrong" they are?

 

[jambre]

why are you trying to say that it doesnt matter if you win only having fun when its about competitive play?

 

[Ferio_Kun]

This is all fine and dandy when you are playing at home with friends and people's ego's are hurt when they cannot seem to win after a dozen matches. I agree that friends should not have to be destroyed match after match because the game is no fun at that point. However, when it comes to playing in a competitive environment (which is what this topic is about), that kind of randomness is unacceptable. You are basically stating that in a basketball game, I have the right to demand free shots since I haven't scored in a while. Life's not fair. Practice so you win more. If you don't like that, don't play with competitive players with competitive rule sets. Just play at home with your friends with items on. Why come online to dictate to the competitive community how "wrong" they are?

Well, you guys are right as far as the competitive community goes. But the majority of the posts I was reading weren't even addressing the competitive aspect, just how cheap the items themselves are. I just hate the argument that no items = skill. Because it takes just as much practice to know, and use items effectively.

But you are right, my post was misplaced as far as the community in general goes.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Well, let me share a different reason I hate items. Aside from all the randomness stuff, I dislike items because they take away from character development. Without items, a character is restricted only to the moves he came built with. With items, everyone partakes of the same pool of explosives, weapons, etc. so characters are suddenly less unique. I love competitive play because you learn the characters on a more personal level (both controlling them and defending against them when they are opponents). Items just kill that for me.

 

[RetroRhythm]

Well, let me share a different reason I hate items. Aside from all the randomness stuff, I dislike items because they take away from character development. Without items, a character is restricted only to the moves he came built with. With items, everyone partakes of the same pool of explosives, weapons, etc. so characters are suddenly less unique. I love competitive play because you learn the characters on a more personal level (both controlling them and defending against them when they are opponents). Items just kill that for me.

Not true at all, because the same thing can be said for the adv. techs using your logic.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Not true at all, because the same thing can be said for the adv. techs using your logic.

I don't follow. Items are an external tool that is the same regardless of who uses it. Advanced techniques still vary from character to character, and some characters have techniques that others do not.

 

[Spellman]

I don't follow. Items are an external tool that is the same regardless of who uses it. Advanced techniques still vary from character to character, and some characters have techniques that others do not.

Well tossing them anyways, the handheld weapons behave differently when used in hand, most of the time. But if it kills it for you, I can't say it doesn't.

 

[Erave]

my friends and I turned off items before we even heard of competetive smash. they just get in the way. items are too random to be in comp play. the idea of competetive play is to see who is the most skilled player, not to see who is the luckiest. thats why certain stages are removed also.

Hey Donkey. You're from Denton? I'm studying at UNT currently. I also agree with this post 100%.

 

[RetroRhythm]

I don't follow. Items are an external tool that is the same regardless of who uses it. Advanced techniques still vary from character to character, and some characters have techniques that others do not.

But essentially, techs are tools as well...

Items do not take away uniqueness just as techs do not...


It just came out hypocritical when you said it is all...

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But essentially, techs are tools as well...

Items do not take away uniqueness just as techs do not...


It just came out hypocritical when you said it is all...

But this is just ridiculous! When a capsule flies from your character's hands, the speed, damage, and knockback are identical on the receiving end. Items are the same no matter where they are (except when swinging bats, swords, etc.). Advanced techniques vary with every character. Sure, everyone can wavedash, but their timings are different, they have different levels of usefulness, etc. Link and Young Link are clones even; Link's wavedash is garbage while Young Link's wavedash is fabulous! I am not being hypocritical with this stance. I am not stating that all characters have to be 100% different from each other. They just have to be themselves.

 

[Red Exodus]

Well, you guys are right as far as the competitive community goes. But the majority of the posts I was reading weren't even addressing the competitive aspect, just how cheap the items themselves are. I just hate the argument that no items = skill. Because it takes just as much practice to know, and use items effectively.

But you are right, my post was misplaced as far as the community in general goes.

Do you pay to enter tournaments? Do you pay to travel to tournaments? Do you pay for a place to stay while you move to the place the tournament is?

If the answer is no then you obviously don't know how important it is that tournaments rely on SKILL and no LUCK. Why on earth would ANYONE go through all of that trouble just to lose a deciding match because of an exploding capsule or crate?

I don't have a job. I'm barely [legally] old enough to get a job and I'm just starting to learn how important every dollar is. You cannot honestly tell me that it's fine and dandy to pay over $200 [estimation, including entry fee, food, accommodation, gas etc.] to lose in a tournament, where you could possibly win $2000, because of luck/random events.

If you only play at home with your friends then you shouldn't care. Personally? When I play at home I turn items on once in a while, when I'm playing with friends and we're playing give-ups we turn them off so people don't die easily to random crap [which is hard, FFA is random enough].

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Supporting items is like having to flip a coin before taking the opponent's piece in chess. Heads, the opponent's piece dies; tails, your piece dies. That is why competitive players so vehemently oppose items. We are not against "having fun". We just prefer a relatively chance-free environment.

 

[Lgndknight]

Smart Bomb = Bullet Bill, = insta kill most of the time. pokeball can equal goldeen = nothing

 

[The Hypnotist]

I'll say it again.

Only items if they spawn in a pattern, otherwise it's luck if a great item spawns next to you. You also need to adjust the frequencies of each item (bombs appear way less than fans). But even if this was some how done...

Items should only be allowed if they are counterpickable or agreed upon by both of the players to have them on.

Personally I don't like items though.

 

[The Hypnotist]

**** no one resonded to this all night so I'll say it again incase this turns up on a new page.

I'll say it again.

Only items if they spawn in a pattern, otherwise it's luck if a great item spawns next to you. You also need to adjust the frequencies of each item (bombs appear way less than fans). But even if this was some how done...

Items should only be allowed if they are counterpickable or agreed upon by both of the players to have them on.

Personally I don't like items though.

 

[FireWater]

I mean I haven't played much competitive smash, but I have played competitive FPS for over 8 years.

Trust me, any variable that can be deemed random or outside of the player's locus control is generally frowned upon. The problem is sometimes these variables are just based on perception and not on actuality.

I'm assuming that items would be randomly placed as they were in Melee and henceforth would be rejected by the casual community as a whole.

 

[Sliq]

If you can't have a good laugh at having a bomb spawn on you, you really need to take a look at the world, in the big picture. It just doesn't matter if you win. The game is made to entertain you, so let the game do it's job.

Hey everyone, the Emperor of Video Games came to tell us what the video game is supposed to do! Our lawless heathenry of just playing the game however we want has come to an end and order has been restored. For great justice!

Everyone wants to win. But when Brawl comes out I know that 90% of you are going to be SO suprised that you get beat more then half the time. With or without items won't make any difference in this case.

Wow, and you can see the future and pick up on other people's emotions! Willickers, why are you here on this forum and not out fighting crime!

There will always be someone better then you. Items don't affect the game so much as to change the fact that online you will loose the majority of the time. Or win the majority of the time.

That's true about the "majority," but in a tournament setting it only takes 1 ****ing match to lose the set and hundreds of dollars, you dolt.

Item require skill as much as knowing your character.

Yeah, this is true. I've been practicing hitting "a" so I can throw a pokeball and have it do **** tons of damage and perhaps kill my opponent while I stand off to the side spamming taunt. Go Entei, go! Display the appropriate level of my skill while I eat some nachos!

Saying items require skill is like entering a martial arts tournament and just shooting people to win. "LOL IT TAKES SKILL TO AIM AND FIRE A GUN LOL." Sure it does, but it takes less ****ing skill then fighting the god**** guy.

I made you a chart to help you understand:

IF you look closely, you'll notice that items do, in fact take skill. However, when compared to personal ability in controlling your character and mindgames, you'll notice that items are ********.

Yes there are overpowered items, but they aren't so horribly overpowered that you can't avoid them. With enough skill, you can avoid any item, in any situation.

With enough skill I can time travel a poop gold. What other nonsensical, unproven claims are we going to do next!? We're two kooky and crazy guys that lack a strong grasp on the things we talk about! ZANY MADNESS!!!!!

Seriously, you don't have any idea what you are talking about.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

If you can't have a good laugh at having a bomb spawn on you, you really need to take a look at the world, in the big picture. It just doesn't matter if you win. The game is made to entertain you, so let the game do it's job.

This is something that's always confused me. What possible entertainment value could anyone who has played this game before get from dying to a random explosion? If I was playing a game, and one of my stocks just disappeared and I respawned at the top with no warning, I don't think anyone would find it amusing. I'd just be confused and kinda mad that my playtime in that match had been randomly shortened. The only difference I can see between that situation and a bomb spawn death is the explosion. So what you're saying is that the game making a mundane "boom" animation and sound is still entertaining to you after seeing it thousands of times, sort of like how a toddler giggles when you uncover your face and say "peek-a-boo" for the 20th time in a row. That about right?

 

[NES n00b]

Jack is way too awesome. Teach me your ways!

On topic, items add luck so that might not be a good idea. If someone gives a system of how using items in tournies would work and could prove it would reduce luck accidents (something that would turn the tide of a close battle) to something that would be way improbable to ever happen in one match in a whole tourney, then I might be for it. lol Seriously, if you think items should be in, try to show how the rules will accomadate them in a tourney setting and why it would make sense once you figured out what items do what and play Brawl, etc etc. Tournies started off with items, but slowly banned them when people realized it skewed results too often. If anyone can change that with a good system that is also fun and deep and prove that it is a good set of rules by running tournies with it, then maybe you can convince the community why they would change a policy that stemmed from the problems of items in Melee (the items themselves and maybe the rules about the items themselves).

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Supporting items is like having to flip a coin before taking the opponent's piece in chess. Heads, the opponent's piece dies; tails, your piece dies. That is why competitive players so vehemently oppose items. We are not against "having fun". We just prefer a relatively chance-free environment.

Comparing items to a coin flip isn't fair. Flipping a coin is pure chance, whereas items have some strategic value.

I'll admit that making items worthy for tournaments is daunting. They have to spawn in different spots and often enough (but not too often, otherwise it becomes too hectic) for there to be a relative 50/50 split of the items between the players. Even if the amount of items are shared evenly, the power and advantages of all the items have to be close to equal, in order to not up set the balance.

 

[Wiwiweb]

What if items spawns were preceded by a blinking arrow, with the type of the item over it, 5-10 seconds before they actually spawned ? Would that remove the randomness of items ?

 

[FalconPunch]

That and make them invincible for 4 seconds and have an explosion warning.