is sheik necessary?

[JigglyZelda003]

I still like it as a "combo-continuer" for up close combat.... its just like an fitilt kind of when your about a roll away...

that is one good point for it and trading hits with weaker projectile shots.

well Dins was never very good for 1 vs 1 anyway. its one of those team/FFA moves. but yeah its on the border cause imagine if some freaky AT comes from the charging in place idea.......... as of now its an ok projectile nothing more really. who cares about balance now anyway Brawl takes unbalance to the extreame anyay lol

 

[Hero-Boy]

Honestly i think din's fire comes in more than handy enough as it is and aswell as that just to reply to the idea of the thread i like zelda's power and smash's shes surprisingly good for those but i still cant help using sheik everytime i play and it never seems like i need zelda as shes too slow for me and too light then again i am a former toon link addict

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

hmm... yeah... I use Din's quite effectively generally....

For all I was being bad mouthed by a few certain posters for n00bishness... I think it's FAR less insightful to judge a projectiles worth solely on the fact that it's innefective if spammed. Din's has PLENTY of usefull aplications, but w/e learn that for yourself if you have to.

 

[Rykoshet]

I'll play you myself to show you how worthless it is, really.

 

[Rykoshet]

Not even remotely kidding about that.

 

[Pokemon Mystery]

Sheik isn't really that good.Though if you need another aireal fighter she's your chose.

 

[TigerWoods]

ryokoshet... i agreee with you for the most part dins fire is crappy but in naks combo video there are combos done on you with the dins.....

 

[Rykoshet]

It's a combo video and I've mentioned plenty of times that its best use is a mid-range stuffer, if anything it's an offensive setup there, not a defensive one. I say the same thing about ike's fsmash, and naks gets hit by uh... 3 in my combo video, that doesn't mean the move isn't relatively worthless. I can show you age old footage when I wasnt even all that good that had 56 din's fires and I dodged practically all of them.

 

[TigerWoods]

well yeh i know its easy to dodge and impossible to camp with...just it has its moments though...i think we are agreeing and not realizing it....

 

[Ztarfish]

Moot point? Nobody's talking about PK Fire. He asked for a single projectile, and that would be PK Freeze. The PK Fire part is what's moot here.

What's also moot is your argument for why PK Freeze isn't worse than Din's. Just because a move is/can be spammed doesn't penalize it. That doesn't even make sense.

Anyway, PK Freeze is worse. The three things it has over Din's are raw power (when both reach their peak areas), being able to go backwards, and that PK Freeze... freezes. Din's goes farther, has a larger hitbox, and when compared to PK Freeze, it isn't impossible to hit with on an opponent who is below where PK Freeze first started (unless they recover upwards, of course).

GAH! Lucas has more than one projectile! He's not gonna sit there and camp with Freeze if he can effectively approach with Fire. I didn't say the point was moot cause Freeze isnt' spammed, I said it's moot cause Fire is BETTER. jesus christ.

Point to me where I said Pk Freeze was better than Dins, it didn't happen. What I said was Fire is better, so why bother with the worse?

You think Lucas's PK Fire is amazing but Ness's is not? Ridiculous. Explain that logic. If you're addicted to horizontal PK Fire in the air and you abhor Ness's in the air, then I can't really say anything about your opinion there, but anyone who thinks Ness's PK Fire is bad has probably never been hit by it past someone on the random WiFi matches.

I PLAY Ness. I never said it was bad, I just said it's not nearly as effective against Din's spam as Lucas's is. Lucas's has so much less ending lag, you could pull off 5 Fires in the time it takes Ness to land one. (Exaggeration, but you get my point)

Ness's PK Flash... it takes time for it to grow on you, but that move is actually pretty decent, yet virtually nobody, even other Ness mains, agree with me. Perhaps I'm the crazy one here, but having a projectile that cuts through everything but something that absorbs it? Yes plz, I'll take it. It can be used as a quick burst above, and I do that all the time for 10% + whatever aerial I wanted to use, with a pretty much guaranteed chance of hitting with it. Edgeguarding, mindgames, etc. It's hardly useless.

Context. Learn it. Outcamp Zelda with Pk flash? Yeah don't think so.

PK Thunder is one of the best projectiles in the game.

Holy jesus. It's wonderful, under the right conditions. BEING UNDER FIRE FROM DINS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

I was talking about relative effectiveness against other projectiles. Din's is worse than the majority of projectiles except for the ones I stated, merely because you can't exactly beat a Din's spam with those projectiles.

Ness has a wonderful projectile game, but if you play his projectiles like you would play, say, Toon Link's, you're ********.

Here's how the conversation went: "Din's fire is great" "No it's not, cause pretty much every projectile can outcamp it except Waddles and Ness's Projectiles (cause of lack of range, lag, etc)"

perhaps you should read previous posts and grasp a sense of context before you accuse me of making claims I never made. I may have worded it poorly, but seriously, it shouldn't have been that hard to understand.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@ TigerW
yeah you might be. we just settle on it has good applications but is no where near the best of projectiles in general?

 

[TigerWoods]

^Sure... its closer to situational at best but there are some instances where it would be your best course of action

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah like against noobs who say the moves is broken cause they don't know how to dodge it lol. on a more serious note it does have its uses even against the deadly 3 matchups for Zelda.

 

[Oh Snap]

LOL. today i was fighting a snake and I think I fsmashed him to the corner of the screen...he activated his recovery god knows why and I din'd him to his death! he's a decent snake actually...he beat me a lot of times. or maybe I'm just a bad zelda XD

 

[JigglyZelda003]

lol its fun, but annoying to hear their johns about it later or during your fiery revenge for them spamming things like MK whorenado/Dsmash, G&W bair/Dsmash,........ the list goes on but it just gets so old. you can only watch someone spam a move you consistently avoid for so long before your on autopilot or asleep.

 

[Villi]

Din's works pretty well at intercepting other projectiles while still hitting the other person, if you detonate it between the two. Toon Link comes to mind.

Yeah detonating it a little earlier or a little later to hit with the edges of the explosions sometimes works.

I'll sometimes mix it in as a mid-range attack to get the 9% explosion if I think I can get away with it. It gives about another Fsmash in range. I don't like to try it again if it doesn't work, though.

It's not really a staple of my game, but there are times when I just can't think of anything else I could be doing.

 

[Iris]

Intercepting projectiles with Din's is strictly mid-range. There's very few projectiles slow enough to counter with a full-range Din's while still hitting your opponent. Like it's been said, using it at a long range as a defensive/baiting measure is pretty ineffective.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'll play you myself to show you how worthless it is, really.

what are ya gonna do? whiff din's at me? I'm quite terrified now <_<

Not even kidding about that

double post.... and not even a remotely useful one.... not even kidding about that

 

[Rykoshet]

what are ya gonna do? whiff din's at me? I'm quite terrified now <_<double post.... and not even a remotely useful one.... not even kidding about that

Lol Is that a no? There are so many ways to punish din's fire usage with just the 2 characters I use that it's ridiculous for you to say anything if you decide to back out. You're so dead sure about your character and your mindset on the character I would think you'd be glad to defend it. It's entirely useful, what better way to show you you're wrong than through practical application. Play how you want, 10 matches, if you lose more than 6 there's a high likelihood you're wrong.

 

[ADHD]

Sheik beats the living crap out of fox and wolf and she may be able to give snake a harder time than zelda. But zelda is good for luigi, and falco, which sheik's unpleasurable matchups

 

[Brinzy]

GAH! Lucas has more than one projectile! He's not gonna sit there and camp with Freeze if he can effectively approach with Fire. I didn't say the point was moot cause Freeze isnt' spammed, I said it's moot cause Fire is BETTER. jesus christ.

Well of course his PK Fire is better. However, I was replying to someone else by naming a projectile that's probably not as good on its own either. Then you came in with Fire and just threw everything off...

Point to me where I said Pk Freeze was better than Dins, it didn't happen. What I said was Fire is better, so why bother with the worse?

Because you jumped in with a projectile that had nothing to do with what I was replying to, or anything I was saying?


I PLAY Ness. I never said it was bad, I just said it's not nearly as effective against Din's spam as Lucas's is. Lucas's has so much less ending lag, you could pull off 5 Fires in the time it takes Ness to land one. (Exaggeration, but you get my point)

Oh, so you're saying AGAINST Din's, it's better? Nice move, but before you even interjected, we were talking about Din's on its own, NOT against other projectiles (as in, Zelda vs. ____). Yeah, excuse my poor comprehension skills, even though you NEVER implied that, NOT ONCE. I'll just learn to read your mind from now on instead of the words you string together.


Context. Learn it. Outcamp Zelda with Pk flash? Yeah don't think so.

Context. Learn it. Again, I'm talking about these moves on their own, not vs. Zelda. In fact, nobody was talking about a projectile fight vs. Din's but you, or at least nobody I was addressing. Did I say you could outcamp Zelda with PK Flash? Who the hell would be dumb enough to even consider that?

Holy jesus. It's wonderful, under the right conditions. BEING UNDER FIRE FROM DINS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

For the fourth time now, too bad that's not what was being said.

I was talking about relative effectiveness against other projectiles.

I was not.

Din's is worse than the majority of projectiles except for the ones I stated, merely because you can't exactly beat a Din's spam with those projectiles.

Ness has a wonderful projectile game, but if you play his projectiles like you would play, say, Toon Link's, you're ********.

Duh. Of course, nobody said that in the first place, so...

Here's how the conversation went: "Din's fire is great" "No it's not, cause pretty much every projectile can outcamp it except Waddles and Ness's Projectiles (cause of lack of range, lag, etc)"

LOL, no, the conversation went, "Din's Fire is good" "No, it's probably the worst in the game. Name a worse one" "PK Freeze" "WRONG, who cares about PK Freeze, PK Fire is there. Pretty much every single projectile is better than Din's, aside from maybe Waddle Toss and Ness's projectiles."

Do you see where you were mistaken?

perhaps you should read previous posts and grasp a sense of context before you accuse me of making claims I never made. I may have worded it poorly, but seriously, it shouldn't have been that hard to understand.

Oh the irony...

The sweet, sweet irony...

Anyway, we're not on the same page here, so I'll repeat myself: PK Freeze is probably worse than Din's Fire, NOT IN THE SENSE THAT THEY'RE GOING AGAINST EACH OTHER. Only you seemed to pick that up.

 

[Ztarfish]

I wrote this horribly long winded response to yours, but I'm tired and it probably didn't make much sense. So I'm gonna just ask you this:

Pk Freeze is worse than Din's Fire
so what?

and to address the whole Ness's Projectiles + Waddle Dee toss issue:

Ryoko had earlier said that Zelda's defensive game was not all that great. I was merely adding on to that.

In order for a character to have a defensive game, they must have a projectile to force the opponent to approach. Zelda's ONLY way to force anyone to approach is Din's fire, and to a lesser extent Nayru's Love. I was saying Din's fire is not a good way to force anyone to approach because most projectile characters have at least one projectile that will outcamp Din's fire, the only two exceptions being Waddle Toss and Ness's Projectiles.

This isn't to say they're bad per se, just that they shouldn't be using them to try to outcamp. Which is sort of obvious.

I'll admit my original post was sort of a jumble of ideas, I'm not exactly the most organized of posters. But seriously, stop picking fights. If you were confused by why I said Pk Freeze being worse didn't matter, or maybe you thought I was saying Waddle Toss and Ness's projectiles were bad in general, all you needed to freakin do was ask for clarification instead of freaking out and being like "Wtf, shut up, ********." Kay? Kay.

 

[TigerWoods]

Your all beggning to sound like the peach boards

 

[JigglyZelda003]

now the peach boards don't sound that bad.............. >__> lol

 

[TigerWoods]

nah the peach boards are still worse lol

 

[Brinzy]

I wrote this horribly long winded response to yours, but I'm tired and it probably didn't make much sense. So I'm gonna just ask you this:

Pk Freeze is worse than Din's Fire
so what?

and to address the whole Ness's Projectiles + Waddle Dee toss issue:

Ryoko had earlier said that Zelda's defensive game was not all that great. I was merely adding on to that.

I wish you would've quoted that instead of my two word post.

In order for a character to have a defensive game, they must have a projectile to force the opponent to approach. Zelda's ONLY way to force anyone to approach is Din's fire, and to a lesser extent Nayru's Love. I was saying Din's fire is not a good way to force anyone to approach because most projectile characters have at least one projectile that will outcamp Din's fire, the only two exceptions being Waddle Toss and Ness's Projectiles.

This isn't to say they're bad per se, just that they shouldn't be using them to try to outcamp. Which is sort of obvious.

Ok.

I'll admit my original post was sort of a jumble of ideas, I'm not exactly the most organized of posters. But seriously, stop picking fights. If you were confused by why I said Pk Freeze being worse didn't matter, or maybe you thought I was saying Waddle Toss and Ness's projectiles were bad in general, all you needed to freakin do was ask for clarification instead of freaking out and being like "Wtf, shut up, ********." Kay? Kay.

Except... I was not confused. Anyone who read your post shouldn't be confused, because they would be reading the same thing I read. If that's not what you meant, then fine, I'm sorry, I'll just have to assume something farfetched so I don't make MYSELF look so dumb when I get quoted and responded to. I didn't "pick" any fights, but ok, I'm in the wrong for saying something to you. Be happy.

Alright...?

 

[TKD]

Depends on the matchup. It rocks to transform mid-game though, freely immediately after KOing or as soon as you knock your opponent away from you, full hop outside the stage+downB so you're only an airjump away from the edge as Zelda, or...ugh, an upB as sheik.

It doesn't matter much Zelda has more trouble transforming safely into Sheik though, since using Zelda for KOs = free transform during your opponent's KO animation.

 

[RoyalBlood]

I wrote this horribly long winded response to yours, but I'm tired and it probably didn't make much sense. So I'm gonna just ask you this:

Pk Freeze is worse than Din's Fire
so what?

and to address the whole Ness's Projectiles + Waddle Dee toss issue:

Ryoko had earlier said that Zelda's defensive game was not all that great. I was merely adding on to that.

In order for a character to have a defensive game, they must have a projectile to force the opponent to approach. Zelda's ONLY way to force anyone to approach is Din's fire, and to a lesser extent Nayru's Love. I was saying Din's fire is not a good way to force anyone to approach because most projectile characters have at least one projectile that will outcamp Din's fire, the only two exceptions being Waddle Toss and Ness's Projectiles.

And Turnips, and thunder jolts, and Granades, and Nikita Missiles, and Egg Toss, and Paralyzer, and Boomerang, and Arrows, and Bombs, and Ice Shot, and Uncharged or mid Charged Aura Sphere, and Heat Seeking missiles, and Smash missiles, and Fireballs, and Pikmin, and Gyro, and sometimes Paulatena Arrow

This isn't to say they're bad per se, just that they shouldn't be using them to try to outcamp. Which is sort of obvious.

I'll admit my original post was sort of a jumble of ideas, I'm not exactly the most organized of posters. But seriously, stop picking fights. If you were confused by why I said Pk Freeze being worse didn't matter, or maybe you thought I was saying Waddle Toss and Ness's projectiles were bad in general, all you needed to freakin do was ask for clarification instead of freaking out and being like "Wtf, shut up, ********." Kay? Kay.

10projectiles :3

 

[TigerWoods]

RoyalBlood I do hope you are joking... I am all for din's uses(read above) but seriously...


Turnips?? They have TONS more uses in destroying aproaches and gimping....and can easily outcamp a dins.... for every dins that is landed 50 turnips have hit zelda....

Thunderjolts? 10 will hit zelda before a dins can hit pika... if the pika decides not to dodge...

Grenades?????!?!?! Have you fought a good snake... that thing is one of the more anoying camping things ever

Boomerang/arrows are a great projectile that moves fast and can camp really well....

bombs... are turnips with more explody properties...

ice shots can lock people and can reach zelda easily if she is din-ing

auraspheres are decent at guarding... they def. beat out dins because they are harder to dodge...

samus's wall of missisles is nothing to joke about... much better camping than zelda could do...

fireballs? theyre pretty bad at camping with but trust me.... dins is worse....alot worse.... the fireballs at least force a shield from up close(dodging will get u hit by the next one)

pikmin?? they rack up damage faster than dins ever will unfortunately

im not even going to honor pits arrows and the gyro being bad camping tools with an answer....

 

[RoyalBlood]

RoyalBlood I do hope you are joking... I am all for din's uses(read above) but seriously...

No i'm not

Turnips?? They have TONS more uses in destroying aproaches and gimping....and can easily outcamp a dins.... for every dins that is landed 50 turnips have hit zelda....

Forgot about turnips travelling with a heart trail from side to side My fault


But indeed at close range Turnips>>>>Din's

Din's Fire destroys or makes turnips disappears, Zelda won't ever need to approach, a good Zelda will never get gimped by turnips, oh and Din's cancels the pull off animation of turnips,
Also

Block turnip with shield>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Glide Toss

Thunderjolts? 10 will hit zelda before a dins can hit pika... if the pika decides not to dodge...

Din's will make thunderjolts disappear, AND STILL HIT PIKACHU -_-

Personally instead of using Nayru's Love against Pikachu beacuse of after-lag, Din's comes to me as the wiser option -_-

Grenades?????!?!?! Have you fought a good snake... that thing is one of the more anoying camping things ever

I have fought many, Din's make them explode when going throught the air, or it completely stops them T_T

Boomerang/arrows are a great projectile that moves fast and can camp really well....

Din's is faster than them and out prioritazes them, but again, you're not using it well *TESTED*

bombs... are turnips with more explody properties...

And slower

Din's>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bombs T_T

ice shots can lock people and can reach zelda easily if she is din-ing

Oh i forgot Ice shots travel faster than lasers T_T

Din's reflects back Ice shots as any attacks does AND AGAIN A GOOD ZELDA WILL AIM TO THE GROUND AND THE ICE LOCK ONLY APPLIES WHEN CHAIN-GRABBED -_-
auraspheres are decent at guarding... they def. beat out dins because they are harder to dodge...

Who's gonna use Din's when coming back from stage -_- and Din's has a giant hitbox

samus's wall of missisles is nothing to joke about... much better camping than zelda could do...

Din's stops 2 or more missiles due to its hitbox size -_-

fireballs? theyre pretty bad at camping with but trust me.... dins is worse....alot worse.... the fireballs at least force a shield from up close(dodging will get u hit by the next one)

Din's Nuliifies them, shield or go away when close *you have a point in the shield thing *

pikmin?? they rack up damage faster than dins ever will unfortunately

Yeah, that if Din's lets them pass -_-

im not even going to honor pits arrows and the gyro being bad camping tools with an answer....

They're faster, but Din's has priority over them *you're right here *

Facepalm

I guess since you're not a Zelda main, you do not know Din´s properties well :ohwell:

Edit : Oh, i think i went a bit ahead of myself I apologize Tiger ^^

 

[TigerWoods]

Lolz.... i know all about dins properties... and its ability to combo inshort ranges..... true dins cancels those projectiles.... but what your saying is that dins will cancel the projectile and hit AND leave Zelda with the ability to outcamp them???

That might work if you are din-ing from moderate range(which is how its suposed to be used, however the projectiles above with the exception of turnips, bombs and pikmin are long ranged projectiles >_< AND its impossible to camp in that range) but from far range the oponent can send about 50 projectiles(exageration... maby 5) before dins gets even close enough to do damage, by which he can dodge and repeat his camping spam....

if your going to cancel the projectiles that are coming for you... fine... .but the ending lag will either cause your oponent to hit you with a projectile or close the gap and hit you with melee power...

bottom line... dins and naryus are pretty laggy... zelda will get punished.... i guarantee =D.... zelda is a pretty bad camper... she excels in "get off me" moves and ko power though...but dins to me is nothing more than an extension of her arm.... it combos beautifully into aerials up close

btw i love the sig

 

[Z1GMA]

the only reason I would use Shiek to inflict damage is her Ftilt..
I can damage them up to 50% then i'd rather use Zelda for the rest of the damage dealing and the KO's !

-

TigerWoods.. There's a difference between Zelda campers and good Zelda campers.

 

[Darkmusician]

I main marth, and zelda, along with snake is my secondary. I've heard that some players use sheik to damage, then use zelda to kill. Is this proven to be a lot more effective than using only Zelda, or is it just based on the player's preference?

Yeah it's all personal preference. One or both. It's up to you how you want to play.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yeah it's all personal preference. One or both. It's up to you how you want to play.

while this is true... it's the same as preferring to play metaknight vs. preferring to play captain falcon.... it only helps you to be competent with shiek as a zelda main consdering it pretty much gives you better matchups across the board to joint or dual main

 

[Darkmusician]

This is same thing you've been saying since page one. You've made your point already.

I'm perfectly happy with using just Zelda and the results speak for themselves.

As as far as "better match ups", I've already expressed my views on character match ups (top tiers or w/e)

I don't sweat good characters; just good players.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This is same thing you've been saying since page one. You've made your point already.

I'm perfectly happy with using just Zelda and the results speak for themselves.

As as far as "better match ups", I've already expressed my views on character match ups (top tiers or w/e)

I don't sweat good characters; just good players.

Well I know YOU prefer Zelda alone, but still I mean if someone asks if it's more effective to use both or if it's personal preference... you can answer that BOTH are correct I guess, but to say that one is just as good as the other and it's all preference just plain isn't true. I mean... if you are BAD with shiek, then, sure, stay Zelda the whole time... but if you CAN use shiek, then... no. It's not just personaly preference it IS a more effective playstyle and I KNOW that you are a successful Zelda user but that doesn't mean that the way you play her is necessarily the best. Absolutely no ill results come from adding shiek to Zelda... if the matchup is one in which shiek is at a dissadvantage, don't bring shiek out I guess... but if it's not then adding shiek can only help your gameplay. I really don't understand how you can argue against this. Zelda/Shiek is better than Zelda... some people may not LIKE the playstyle and may end up switching back to a straight Zelda, but that doesn't mean that Zelda is a better chaarcter, because she's not.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well on the latest tier list Zelda is ranked higher than Sheik. so tier wise she's better, but i also think its better to have some instances to use sheik especially if your opponent only expected you to stay Zelda.

 

[TigerWoods]

I think Zelda just has more options than Shiek in countering other movesets really. The only reason some people claim shiek is better is because Zeldas can be a tad bit predictable. Now the predictability is only an issue of mental skill.

Basicly what I mean is that Shiek can change up the match really easily with various strategies, while the majority of Zeldas are limited in option. Having said that Zelda's opitions ARE better, but can be more predictable.

Am I making sense <_<

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

ya but that doesn't change the fact that, in certain matchups, shiek just plain does better... Lucas, ganondorf and ike are some good examples. and in other matchups.. playing BOTH does better... in fact, rarely is playing both worse than one or the other.

plain and simple being able to play shiek is a HUGE advantage... it's not NECESSARY... I mean nothing is NECESSARY, but it's highly advised.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

well DarkM does fine w/ just Zelda so it really is preference. its just like only maining MK or having some random seconday to take care of a few matchups like Lucario. not neccesary, but rewarding in the long run. there should be some kind of poll to see who all just uses 1 and who dual uses. >.>