is sheik necessary?

[Somacruz2]

I know both Zelda and Shiek Really well. they are defenitly my best two characters and the key to them is to really know when to use them.
Sheik's air game is much better than Zelda's. there fore i use sheik against characters like MK and Ness who thrive in the air, and i use Zelda for Snakes and Marths. Zelda is closer to my main than sheik is, but i still use both in one match to throw off my opponent. Learning Both Zelda and Shiek is the only way to bring out that character's true potential. Zelda/sheik has the distinct ability to cover their bases with one move. No other character has that ability, the trick is to master both of them, but also be able to know when to use them.

As far as weaknesses, shiek doesn't die any faster than zelda does, it may only seem that way because it's easier to mess up as sheik, and i feel the sheiks recovery is easier to gimp. There's no reason not to pick up both characters, you're only limiting yourself if you do. They're two characters in one for a reason People.

 

[popsofctown]

Sheik only seems like she dies more because most of the transform critics have far more Zelda experience than Sheik experience.

Their longevity is so close it's actually a tad creepy. Sheik's goes a little bit less of a distance, but it doesn't have to be a straight line because there's the jump, then the straightline teleport. Zelda's actual teleport is farther, but she falls before she teleports.

 

[Ztarfish]

Honestly it feels much safer going off stage with Sheik than it ever does with Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Honestly it feels much safer going off stage with Sheik than it ever does with Zelda.

*agrees*

But Shiek DOES die quicker. I'm sure of it.

 

[imdavid]

hell at 110% a bthrow from ness will kill practically anyone -__-

well, my view is that ness is much more managable to fight with sheik than zelda, the simple grab release to ftilt from 20-80% is just a ridiculous advantage if you ask me. its like a chaingrab but just more bareable to see your percent go up.

as zelda, i get juggled left and right by ness's fair-fair... to running attack... to fair to bair... to bair... to nair.. combo. the duration of some of his moves is just ridiculous and puts aerial dodges to shame. i just get frustrated because of zeldas lack of speed in the air to give a fighting chance once i get juggled once.

and any intelligent ness would give up on using projectiles against zelda early on, so having nayrus quickly doesn't even become an advantage but a disadvantage as any use of nayru's is most like being baited by the ness user as a short hop pk fire to running attack, if you claim that the fire is being reflected still and limits ness's approach, the short hop pk fire goes off at a diagonal and quickly dissappears as it is reflected leaving ness the option to dash in with his super long, multi hit, disjointed dash attack.

you may say that sheik has no counter to ness's projectiles... but just needle spamming a ness player gives them hell XD they get so frustrated its hillarious, well for me anyways. pk fire and thunder both have quite a bit of start up lag and also... the range sucks. where a quick needle can cut in as soon as he says PK... where as ness has the mindgame to set up a magnet for the dins, needles just mess with him. as soon as ness is 80% after your ftilt ****, one jab-ftilt quickly leads a ness into the air where sheik can proceed to aerial **** him, tadaaa

and if that wasn't enough for you... ness's ground game consists of projectiles, stubby limbs to use tilts on you, stubby arms to do jabs on you and a dash attack that is pretty predictable and easily dodged by simply running forward, doing a quick turn around, and then doing a pivot grab which will work on... most about all of his ground moves... (ness players knowing this is a weakness against all matchups usually hope their projectiles will save them or else stick to the air... which as we all acknowledged sheik does better than him at) and since i'm a grab happy sheik, playing against nesses is just grab bait where i bait any of ness's moves, mindgame into grab.

zelda.. has no option of approaching herself so has control of the game only as the limit of the ness player him/herself allows, which is frustrating to me and why i rarely use zelda. for all of you more patient people... zelda has way more better matchups and will be a better over all character ^^

ON TOPIC - i would say zelda is a pretty solid character so that you wouldn't need to use sheik at all only on the matchups that zelda has a clear disadvantage and sheik has a better one (although those are few and with the chances those are you might as well just get a better counter-pick)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I have never been able to tilt lock ness at any damage.... just sayin'

I can get a few tilts in, but then he gets out.

 

[imdavid]

if you try to tilt lock from 0% he'll get out almost 100% of the time, but if you start the tilt lock at 20% then he's trapped until 80%

 

[Ztarfish]

I've never been able to tilt lock a Ness either, though as a Ness I have been tilt locked, so i know it's possible. I guess it's just hard

 

[Brinzy]

I love Ness <3


Smash DI UP and towards Sheik when using Ness. Anything else keeps you in for much longer. This is how I get out so fast vs. StH.

 

[SinkingHigher]

*agrees*

But Shiek DOES die quicker. I'm sure of it.

I like to believe that Sheik's streamlined figure compared to Zelda's puffed-up dress have some use in Brawl physics with air-resistance/drag and whatnot.

Sheik rockets through the air while Zelda just floats.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

It's definitely more than 2%... but even if it weren't... Zelda's defenisve nature generally makes it easier for her to survive longer, all weight aside.

I'd like to see you test numbers. For the vast majority of fresh attacks I hit both Sheik and Zelda with (ie. ones that would actually be used for KOs) the survival difference between the two was on average, just 2%.

Also, Sheik can be made to play far campier than Zelda. Sheik's speed allows for it even against fast characters, while Zelda's does not. In other words... get a grip on yourself and smell the coffee.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sheik can be made to play far campier than Zelda...

total BS...


I mean, I repect that you are an accomplished smasher, but honestly, Shiek CANNOT outcamp Zelda... and the fact that you say shiek is FAR better at camping than Zelda is just awful... saying shiek CAn play defensively is one thing, but saying shiek ***** Zelda defensively is quite another.

 

[imdavid]

"What'chu talkin' 'bout, Willis?" Needles can outcamp dins on the stage any day. they come out way faster, harder to avoid, doesn't leave sheik entirely defenseless during the process, and sheik can just GTFO and run across the stage when the opponent is getting too close.

besides... in a zelda was trying to outcamp a sheik, a sheik would just have to use 1 needle to cancel the dins and move an inch forward to dodge the after blast and repeat the process

so...

get a grip on yourself and smell the coffee.

 

[Rykoshet]

Camping has absolutley zilch to do with damage power, it has to do wit keeping your opponent out, at bay, away from you. A needle storm or even a single needle accomplishes that far better than anything zelda has. Once your opponent learns that the only thing you have to do to beat out a defensive zelda is not roll towards her she's got a lotta nada.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Camping has absolutley zilch to do with damage power, it has to do wit keeping your opponent out, at bay, away from you. A needle storm or even a single needle accomplishes that far better than anything zelda has. Once your opponent learns that the only thing you have to do to beat out a defensive zelda is not roll towards her she's got a lotta nada.

all the same, what I first said was: Zelda is better defensively.

which is true.

Sheik can simply NOT play defensively and continue to score KOs.... Zelda can. Shiek can play a runnaway game, maybe, but what if shiek has high damage, but is a life behind, not ahead? Then you wanna be Zelda becasue you'll still be able to get the KO and your opponent should be quite wary of approaching you.

 

[imdavid]

against characters that are slow and have ridiculous start up lag on their attacks, (case in point DK) choknater mentioned that one can simply just needle endlessly forcing an aerial approach which will automatically be deflected by a dsmash. after a period of time one can expand this to a gimp game against these characters using bairs off the stage or dsmash far enough off stage to transform to zelda for the kill and transform back to continue your needle and smash harassment

please dont use ultimatums when they aren't true, your bias towards zelda is very high. her defensive game is no doubt much better than sheiks, but that doesn't mean playing a good runaway game cant score good kos, and at the same time i can tell you are viewing sheik and zelda as two different characters where as i would play defensively enough with sheik (because i can evade better with sheik because my zelda sucks) and then get the kill with zelda. the thread title is as states, is sheik necessary (for a zelda player). so i would assume the TC would use both.

 

[Rykoshet]

all the same, what I first said was: Zelda is better defensively.

which is true.

Sheik can simply NOT play defensively and continue to score KOs.... Zelda can.

Against a blind, ******** monkey with the motor skills of an eggplant possibly.

And it cant be a fresh eggplant either, theyre way too smart for that.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

... her defensive game is no doubt much better than sheiks...

aaaaaaaaaand that's a wrap

p.s. the rest of your post is also accurate, at least, so far as I know.

 

[Rykoshet]

You do realize that arbitrarily assigning someone as an authority on a matter for the sole virtue that they happened to agree with you on something only manages to make you look like a magnanimous tool, right? Only a few weeks ago you were parroting someone on when to use sheik and you NOW disagree with because they said that your flawed character has... duh, flaws.

Zelda's defensive game is nothing remotely bothersome to deal with. Her projectile is easily the single worst in the game and it having KO power doesn't mean jack if the stupid thing doesn't even hit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You do realize that arbitrarily assigning someone as an authority on a matter for the sole virtue that they happened to agree with you on something only manages to make you look like a magnanimous tool, right? Only a few weeks ago you were parroting someone on when to use sheik and you NOW disagree with because they said that your flawed character has... duh, flaws.

Zelda's defensive game is nothing remotely bothersome to deal with. Her projectile is easily the single worst in the game and it having KO power doesn't mean jack if the stupid thing doesn't even hit.

ummm...
a) not assigning him authority, just happening to agree with him... and the fact that he was heavily disagreeing earlier but admits Zelda has a better defensive game... very nice.

b) umm... you know. it's possible to agree with someone in one instance and not another?

c) Zelda's defensive game is NOT so easy to get around... it's what makes her an AWFUL matchup for charcters with low priority or only aerial approaches.

d) Din's is great... it's not the best projectile in the game, but saying it's the worst is just ignorant. It may require some mindgames for it to hit, but it's always worth it when it does.

 

[Rykoshet]

b) umm... you know. it's possible to agree with someone in one instance and not another?

On literally the same subject? No, sorry.

c) Zelda's defensive game is NOT so easy to get around... it's what makes her an AWFUL matchup for charcters with low priority or only aerial approaches

Name a character in this game that actually does only have aerial approaches, last I checked running shielding and jabbing were all common traits amongst every character in this game.

d) Din's is great... it's not the best projectile in the game, but saying it's the worst is just ignorant. It may require some mindgames for it to hit, but it's always worth it when it does.

I defy you to find a projectile that's worse, also there's no mindgaming something that is slow, follows a set trajectory, and the only thing that varies is explosion range. You shield when it comes in and if it doesnt blow up when you shield you... continue to hold your shield or then decide to spot dodge because by the time it ends the thing is past you and just now blowing up. If you mean punishing people who chase too readily at close-mid range, that's not a mindgame. Din's fire is at best, pathetic, and there isnt a single projectile in this game that doesnt serve a greater purpose.

 

[TigerWoods]

I defy you to find a projectile that's worse, also there's no mindgaming something that is slow, follows a set trajectory, and the only thing that varies is explosion range. You shield when it comes in and if it doesnt blow up when you shield you... continue to hold your shield or then decide to spot dodge because by the time it ends the thing is past you and just now blowing up. If you mean punishing people who chase too readily at close-mid range, that's not a mindgame. Din's fire is at best, pathetic, and there isnt a single projectile in this game that doesnt serve a greater purpose.

Snakes box, and actually the nikita missile is a din-firish projectile, theyre both pretty useless. PkFlash will never hit, its like an incredibly slow dins fire.... Anyway don't hate too much on the dins, they make you look like a pro in basic brawl XD

 

[Rykoshet]

Nikita has a variable contact point and can be used to keep someone out from the ledge by dropping it slightly in front of them as they fall, din's at best can force an air dodge too low and take away someone's atteempt to recover and if theyre smart theyll just eat the blast at that low and DI upward to avoid a KO, if they attempt to do that with the nikita at similar % theyre being blown off the side and likely taking the KO for it. PK flash can be used to punish terribly predictable recoveries (force snake off that cypher low enough and see what sort of predicament he puts himself into that you cant capitalize on, and i'd personally much rather start off with a projectile to edgeguard than throw myself out there) and though it may hit like once in a blue moon it's used about 1/20 as often and if it does connect it's game over for that stock definitively, not a "chance" to KO, you're just gone.

 

[Oh Snap]

I swear more ppl on basic brawl are learning to dodge dins'

>____________>

but only 1 out of the 3 ppl know how :D

 

[TigerWoods]

Occasionaly i find really good basic brawlers... you know obvious-good with all the advanced AT's....they make me chuckle when me and some other guy get 12 kills each XD

ANYWAY to the task at hand I do believe that Din's is dodged like herpes... its horribly predictable, and it isn't the best projectile. However 9/10 of the time it will cough up an airdodge. Also in close range its amazing for comboing (Usmash-Nai-Dins-Uair) Yes i know its entirely escapable but if your oponent isn't expecting it and reacts wrong anything goes you know??

Anyway I use din's to cough up an airdodge(or punish nooby-noobs) and for a quick combo in close range, more so with the latter. Its decently fast, increases your range if no other move can hit, and it pops your oponent straight up for another move when used upclose.

Oh and I see your point with the nikita and pk flash stuff.

 

[Oh Snap]

I faced a really really really good Snake today in BB (I didn't win once >___>)

I was shocked when I saw him use DACUS lul.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Din's is one of the shallowest moves in the game which is why it's one of the worst projectiles. For every Din's Fire you could hope to hit, you an probably land 5 or more full Needle Storms.

Also, Zelda's defensive game is not better than Sheik's. Sheik is far better at playing the opportunist, and depending on who it is, that could lead to either significant damage or major damage from but one opening. Zelda has good range and priority, but only good speed on a few moves. Zelda's game is not so defensive as it is offensive by using outprioritizng attacks. That is, I find Zelda must be played as offensively as Brawl's metagame can allow to be effective. Playing defensively with Zelda doesn't work when the opponent knows how to space on her or just outcamp her.

Too many cases of people thinking their characters are better than they actually are (Zelda), while at the same time *worse* than they actually are (Sheik).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Din's is one of the shallowest moves in the game which is why it's one of the worst projectiles. For every Din's Fire you could hope to hit, you an probably land 5 or more full Needle Storms.

Also, Zelda's defensive game is not better than Sheik's. Sheik is far better at playing the opportunist, and depending on who it is, that could lead to either significant damage or major damage from but one opening. Zelda has good range and priority, but only good speed on a few moves. Zelda's game is not so defensive as it is offensive by using outprioritizng attacks. That is, I find Zelda must be played as offensively as Brawl's metagame can allow to be effective. Playing defensively with Zelda doesn't work when the opponent knows how to space on her or just outcamp her.

Too many cases of people thinking their characters are better than they actually are (Zelda), while at the same time *worse* than they actually are (Sheik).

Since when is using her to outprioritize attacks inherently offensive? couldn't you take the same stance but apply it defensively? Especially if the character against whom you are playing has a much better defensive game than offensive?

 

[Rykoshet]

Since when is using her to outprioritize attacks inherently offensive? couldn't you take the same stance but apply it defensively?

Not if your opponent has a disjointed hitbox, a concept of good spacing, or any better projectile whatsoever.

 

[Brinzy]

I defy you to find a projectile that's worse

PK Freeze.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Not if your opponent has a disjointed hitbox, a concept of good spacing, or any better projectile whatsoever.

well then fine, spank me and call me suzy.. if the character has that on you go a bit more aggro... if the opponent is much more limited in spacing or approaching... then don't.... either way, you're trying to counter you're trying to use your oponent's playstyle against him

 

[Ztarfish]

PK Freeze.

Right, cause that's spammed nearly as much as Din's Fire <_< Plus he has an amazing Pk Fire, which beats Din's. So moot point.

Pretty much every single projectile is better than Din's, aside from maybe Waddle Toss and Ness's projectiles. Which makes defensiveness rather hard against those characters that have projectiles. And any non projectile characters you're like to encounter have amazing approach games (MK anyone?) so yeah, if your plan is to sit in a corner and Fsmash everything that comes your way, i'm sorry but no dice.

 

[Iris]

Eh, Din's just isn't good at hitting. From anywhere more than a roll or two away it won't connect on a grounded opponent. It's possible to direct it past an airdodge or explode before, simply because people can be too pre-occupied recovering to watch Zelda's hand. The best uses are forcing airdodges, stringing it onto a nair, and getting extra damage on some one recovering from below (I personally prefer Dair though). Forcing an approach with it worked 2 months ago. Now it's best use at a distance is inflicting a bit of shield damage.

I don't think it's useless, and certainly not the worst projectile, but it's pretty overrated. Maybe if you could direct it backwards as well, haha.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It's also good when the enemy is forced to recover and so can';t avoid it

 

[Brinzy]

Right, cause that's spammed nearly as much as Din's Fire <_< Plus he has an amazing Pk Fire, which beats Din's. So moot point.

Moot point? Nobody's talking about PK Fire. He asked for a single projectile, and that would be PK Freeze. The PK Fire part is what's moot here.

What's also moot is your argument for why PK Freeze isn't worse than Din's. Just because a move is/can be spammed doesn't penalize it. That doesn't even make sense.

Anyway, PK Freeze is worse. The three things it has over Din's are raw power (when both reach their peak areas), being able to go backwards, and that PK Freeze... freezes. Din's goes farther, has a larger hitbox, and when compared to PK Freeze, it isn't impossible to hit with on an opponent who is below where PK Freeze first started (unless they recover upwards, of course).

Both are near even in terms of ability, but I've gotten more use out of Din's than PK Freeze, and not taking raw numbers into play (since I've obviously used more Din's than Freeze), I'm sure that I've done more with Din's than I have with Freeze.

I would be more inclined to agree if PK Freeze just forced the opponent to drop immediately, but honestly, I like the fact that I can get a chance to kill an opponent off the top of the screen when they go really high, especially with some Snake players who don't learn.

Pretty much every single projectile is better than Din's, aside from maybe Waddle Toss and Ness's projectiles.

LOL no.

You think Lucas's PK Fire is amazing but Ness's is not? Ridiculous. Explain that logic. If you're addicted to horizontal PK Fire in the air and you abhor Ness's in the air, then I can't really say anything about your opinion there, but anyone who thinks Ness's PK Fire is bad has probably never been hit by it past someone on the random WiFi matches.

Ness's PK Flash... it takes time for it to grow on you, but that move is actually pretty decent, yet virtually nobody, even other Ness mains, agree with me. Perhaps I'm the crazy one here, but having a projectile that cuts through everything but something that absorbs it? Yes plz, I'll take it. It can be used as a quick burst above, and I do that all the time for 10% + whatever aerial I wanted to use, with a pretty much guaranteed chance of hitting with it. Edgeguarding, mindgames, etc. It's hardly useless.

PK Thunder is one of the best projectiles in the game.

I probably sound like a fanboy now, but come on, of all projectile games to name, you picked Ness's?

 

[Rion Prower]

Oh dear, it seems we're talking about projectiles now... but I guess it'll be better to put it in the Sheik VS Zelda perspective to make it at least a little more on topic :x

Zelda's Din's Fire has a few good/great advantages:

Controllable trajectory
Can't be nullified while traveling (Even if you get hit, although you can't control when it explodes afterwards...)
Okay traveling speed
Increased damage and knock back with distance.

However, because it's simply one concentrated hit, it is easily dodged because of that nature which causes a whole bunch of problems. Shielding it is one way to get around it, and at the very least you've worn down the opponent's shield partially from that. But once you incorporate air dodges or spot dodges, that's when it's starting to not really do anything except some "mild" pressuring. You could also use it to make an opponent air dodge into a USmash or something during the air dodge's lag afterwards too if you're lucky enough to get that setup... but anyways:

Sheik's Needles:

Less damage than Din's Fire and knock back
Hits multiple times
Very fast traveling speed
Able to save a full charge which can be used for later

The only downside to the needles are the considerable less knock back compared to Din's Fire. But this isn't the purpose of these. Because it can hit multiple times, spot dodging it or air dodging won't be nearly as effective compared to dodging Din's Fire, for example.

Every time you just hit with one needle, you'll also be refreshing your valuable KO moves if they've grown too stale. It's also not that bad a damage builder. And, because you can store a full charge, you can just wait for any opportune moment to unleash them without much warning, compared to Din's Fire which is quite easy to tell when it's coming because of it's start up and overall general nature.

In my opinion, Sheik's needles would definitely serve more in a 1VS1 match, while Zelda's Din's Fire would serve more in a Team Match; at least to me. Whether you want to use them for vice versa is up to you I suppose, but it seems that Sheik's Needles have a bit more of a practical use (from the responses I've seen anyway).

Maybe if they changed Din's Fire so that you tap SideB, it comes out with controllable trajectory, but to make it explode you'd have to press B again. You could press B to make it explode or you could press B and hold it to make it stay in place where it currently is and delay the explosion until you release B, a bit like a smash attack. Maybe that would help with it's current dodging problems?

P.S. Would it really be so bad if the "helpless" animation Zelda gets when she uses Din's Fire in the air was removed? Really? -Really-? ; ;

 

[Deleted member]

i never use sheik lol...

zelda > sheik

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Oh
Maybe if they changed Din's Fire so that you tap SideB, it comes out with controllable trajectory, but to make it explode you'd have to press B again. You could press B to make it explode or you could press B and hold it to make it stay in place where it currently is and delay the explosion until you release B, a bit like a smash attack. Maybe that would help with it's current dodging problems?

P.S. Would it really be so bad if the "helpless" animation Zelda gets when she uses Din's Fire in the air was removed? Really? -Really-? ; ;

maybe but then wouldn't Dins become far too good almost broken? lol

since a few of the characters already have like no helpless animations anyway i think it could be removed.

Edit: i use sheik depending on the situation, and what character im fighting. so i may switch back and forth or just switch once for the rest of the fight. using Sheik to rack up damage then Zelda for the KO takes a bit too long sometimes or is really unnecessary i think, its like try to use Ivysaur to camp and rack up damage then switch to Charizard for the KO just not really alot of reason to do it other than preference.

 

[Rion Prower]

maybe but then wouldn't Dins become far too good almost broken? lol

since a few of the characters already have like no helpless animations anyway i think it could be removed.

If they were to take my idea, I think they'd have to make it so that it can only be held in one spot for so long like how a smash attack can only be charged up for a maximum amount of time instead of indefinitely.

I mean, based off what people are saying Din's Fire seems to be too ineffective to be a good projectile so at least now it would be "useful". No matter how powerful it is, it won't be able to do much if it can't hit people.

Though I was worried beforehand about suggesting that idea because Din's Fire is like balancing on a tight rope; right now it's borderline inefficient but the smallest buff could make it go way over-board. Perhaps if they toned down the knock back but allowed the charging idea?

 

[TigerWoods]

I still like it as a "combo-continuer" for up close combat.... its just like an fitilt kind of when your about a roll away...