Dark Sonic: notice how I said "2007".
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Is Brawl more balanced than melee? **Take 2**
- Thread starter The Halloween Captain
- Start date
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otg
Smash Master
I need to find someway to block out Alphazealot's posts.
Edit:
****, guess you can't do that **** for Mods.
Edit:
****, guess you can't do that **** for Mods.
When did I ever argue that it was coincidence? I am perfectly aware of that Marth is arguably the best character in Melee. I've "conceded" this point time and time again (and I wrote that with sarcastic quote marks since I never argued the opposite).
I just do not share your view that Marth (apparently) dominates Melee on such a plane he's the only character capable of consistently winning major tournaments.
Tournaments which happened to be won by the same 3 people. That's like pointing at 3S tourney results and saying "Hey, look, Chun-Li is obviously the only character capable of consistently winning tournaments!". Go make that claim to the 3S community and see how long it takes for them to laugh you out of the continent.
"Marth can afford more mistakes due to stupidity or laziness to not take your character to their (humanly possible) peak!" - Yes, if you're going to argue this, sure. You can play Marth in a sloppier way than Falco, Fox and Sheik and still do as well or better than had you played as any of the other 3.
But we don't really care about that, though.
I'm not arguing perfect play. I'm arguing highest possible level of (humanly capable) play. And at those levels, Marth is nowhere near as dominant as you think he is.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Well, how dominant do you think he thinks Marth is?
IrArby
Smash Ace
It also doesn't help that the best Shiek also belongs to the best Marth. It doesn't seem there are a lot of high level Shieks nowadays. Practically and Theoritically, Shieks beat Marths of the same level. Theoritically and Practically, MK beats Diddy and the best MK has been beaten twice now. The matchup is still sort of being explored so its up for debate. I'm not saying M2K will beat every Diddy in the future once we've explored the matchup but its possible. Do you have a link to those vids of M2K losing? I haven't seen this vids myself.
People would show more mid tier favoritism in Brawl because the tops aren't considered so cheap for one. The results are skewed because a lot of people don't want to play the tops. Where as more people like the tops in Melee which tends to skew the results in a more predictable fashion. Mid tiered characters who place can easily include really good players. Like Azen with Link. He could place but that doesn't mean placing with a lower character makes the game more balanced. Placing top 8 doesn't prove anything neccesarily. And just as a matter of interest, who do you think Melee players showed more favoritism to since I think thats very relevant?
People would show more mid tier favoritism in Brawl because the tops aren't considered so cheap for one. The results are skewed because a lot of people don't want to play the tops. Where as more people like the tops in Melee which tends to skew the results in a more predictable fashion. Mid tiered characters who place can easily include really good players. Like Azen with Link. He could place but that doesn't mean placing with a lower character makes the game more balanced. Placing top 8 doesn't prove anything neccesarily. And just as a matter of interest, who do you think Melee players showed more favoritism to since I think thats very relevant?
While things can always change (considering Melee is still played), I would like to ask again if you could point to some other character that has been shown to consistently win national level tournaments?
Exactly my point. Three people across a span of years showed that you could consistently win national level tournaments with Marth. Zero people in this same time frame showed that other characters could accomplish the same task.
It isn't that you play Marth sloppy, its that with Marth there is less likelihood you will make a mistake. It is this, coupled with the fact that he is also an amazing character, that allow Marth to consistently dominate while other characters have a much higher variance in success.
Actually, I think in theory Diddy beats MK-zero Diddy's have used his single nana lock in tournament yet, for example.
Winners: NL (Diddy) vs M2K (MK)
Round 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K41pCe5ORCY&feature=related
Rounds 2/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w3LzYlw5bU
Winners: Azen (Marth then Diddy twice) vs DSF (MK)
Rounds 1/2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV11Vj4VJUA
Round 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qITTQsirqhk
So at the same tournament that NL beat M2K, Azen (with a 1 month old Diddy that doesn't even dribble) manages to take a game off of DSF's MK (the second best MK).
It all depends on what time frame you are talking about. In Brawl, being a relatively new game, I think people mostly gravitated toward whatever character they wanted to play - they didn't gravitate toward mid-tiers, because at the time they chose their characters (for most people), there weren't any tiers in existence. I've been playing Diddy since day 1 and haven't changed my character. Now, you also have people who do start to gravitate toward characters that have success, this is why it seems as if there is favoritism toward high/top tier characters in Melee. There is, to an extent, because people came into the community and saw which characters did well so they gravitated toward those characters. This same process is already happening in Brawl. ChuDat starts doing amazing with Kirby and suddenly everyone and their grandmother players Kirby. The Diddy Kong boards use to be a ghost town, then Ninjalink beats M2K (for the first time, back in August) and suddenly everyone is interested in Diddy.
If people could show favoritism it is simply to characters that do well. However, all of this is subjective and very difficult to really put numbers on. As a note about Diddy, I didn't really attend many tournaments from the launch until about October, but since October I've already beaten (basically) the 3rd/4th/5th best MK's in the midwest with my Diddy (Rofa/Kel/Ding Dong-took the 2nd best MK, Overswarm, to 5 games, and the best, Vidjo, I haven't played). Everyone I just mentioned has a bunch more experience to, but Diddy does so well in the match up it is easy to make up for not having as much experience (basically missing a very important summer of Smash).
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
In my opinion, Diddy is one of MKs only bad matchup. I hear Bower is, but I have yet to see this in practice.
The actual number of good marth players out there is much much smaller than that of the number of good Fox/Falco players. While Marth players may tend to win tournaments, the Top 8 will consist of more spacies than anything else.
Most top level players can play at least 3 or 4 of the top/high tier characters, and do so often in tournament to counter certain matchups/stages.
I don't understand why these kinds of threads exist at this point in the lifespan of brawl. No player has sufficient knowledge of his own character or the game to allow him to know how to fight a majority of the matchups in the game or counter playstyles of every region, though I hear that MK can pretty much do the same thing to every character except Diddy. The game hasn't been around long enough, and the metagame has at least a few more years of development before you can solidly state anything of the sort.
*shrug* I don't know a great deal about brawl aside from what M2K tells me, but MK is still all kinds of broken.
Most top level players can play at least 3 or 4 of the top/high tier characters, and do so often in tournament to counter certain matchups/stages.
I don't understand why these kinds of threads exist at this point in the lifespan of brawl. No player has sufficient knowledge of his own character or the game to allow him to know how to fight a majority of the matchups in the game or counter playstyles of every region, though I hear that MK can pretty much do the same thing to every character except Diddy. The game hasn't been around long enough, and the metagame has at least a few more years of development before you can solidly state anything of the sort.
*shrug* I don't know a great deal about brawl aside from what M2K tells me, but MK is still all kinds of broken.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
The reason is twofold.
1. People want to talk about it now.
2. People don't want to talk about it later.
IrArby
Smash Ace
If Brawl is still going through that process (picking characters who win) then the results would be skewed. As you said it, they're still picking people like Kirby and DK because of Chu and Bum. They still avoid the best characters because they're cheap. Heck, if these guys are avoiding characters because they're cheap, whose to say the don't avoid elements in the match themselves that aren't cheap. They could be not counterpicking because that can be considered cheap. I wouldn't neccesarily argue that but its a possiblity. I'll check out those vids and edit more into this later.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You cannot be serious in what you just said.
Tell me, where have you been hearing such ideas? Frankly, last i saw, Tenki, myself, DJbrown and other, intelligent,. knowledgeable Sonic mains have never made such statement.
I truly hope this is just you going off what you have heard since it is alot of bull****.
What?
Why are you speaking for an entire character board?
No Sonic main with part of their brain has ever made such statements,a nd the fact you are going off and making such a statement and trying to make it speak as the sentiment of a character board is really, really, bad.
If you are going to speak for a character board, make sure that what you are stating is, you know, actually true.
Otherwise you are asking to get flamed and righteously deserve it.
Normally I ignore half the crap people spout but this, this is on a different level of bad.
Where did I say anyone avoided a character because a character was "cheap"? I'm sure a couple people have done it, but I've never met them.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Any character above mid teir is cheap. >_>
<_<
>_>
<_<
AZ I wouldlike to play your Diddy in person some time.
IrArby
Smash Ace
Thats what I'm saying as did Yuna. A lot of tournament goers are to honorable to play cheap characters. I didn't say you said it AZ. Just that, those tournament results could easily be skewed because alot of people feel that way. Thus they play Peach and alot of other people play Sonic and Bam people have top 8 finishes with all kinds of characters.
BTW I see what you were talking about with the bananas locks. Its pretty hefty.
Where the heck is the Brawl AT Guide thread thingy? I thought it was in the General Discussion Forum but unless I'm selectively blind its not.
EDIT: Nevermind the last part. Wrong Forum.
BTW I see what you were talking about with the bananas locks. Its pretty hefty.
Where the heck is the Brawl AT Guide thread thingy? I thought it was in the General Discussion Forum but unless I'm selectively blind its not.
EDIT: Nevermind the last part. Wrong Forum.
Did I or did I not just say state that I do not share AZ's view that Marth is the only Melee character capable of consistently winning major tournaments?
Did I or did I not recently state that tournament results are not the end-all and be-all of tournament viability?
Yes, it was just a fluke that when those three people didn't win, people playing as Sheik, Falco and Fox happened to win the vast majority of the time.
I see what you mean. I disagree with the sentiment that Fox requires such a high level of play in order to do as well to Marth as to being virtually impossible to humanly play consistently to such a degree you'll be able to do as well as him as with Marth, though.
Yes, and this all supports my belief that people have yet to seriously gravitate towards the Top Tiers in Brawl to the same degree as for the average fighting game. They randomly gravitate towards characters shown to suddenly start doing well instead of, you know, just going for the Top Ties.
Why go for Kirby and Diddy when they start doing well? Why change your main(s) and "tierwhore" them instead of changing to Snake or Meta Knight instead?
Tournament results aren't proof of tournament viability? I mean, I could see after a couple tournaments you saying that, but after 4-5 years?
This is false-it was largely Falco and Ice Climbers. However, the point was about consistent dominance, of which none of these characters (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Ice Climbers), had. The closest was simply PC Chris's Falco getting top 3 most of the time and ChuDat's Ice Climbers getting top 3. To date ChuDat only has 1 real national tournament win under his belt (in singles), and that was Pound 2 (second place M2K who used Marth). PC Chris has a couple more national tournament wins than ChuDat, but no where near the number Ken/Azen/M2K racked up.
Once again, where is your evidence to support that players are not using characters because some characters are "cheap". People wanted MK banned for a reason afterall, and part of that reason was that some people said 1/4th of the tournament field at tournaments they had gone to were MK's.
Stop strawmanning me. I said that just because Marth dominate the tournament placings does not mean he's the only possible viable character to consistently win tournaments in Melee. Especially not when it's just 3 specific people running around p0wning people.
If he's so far beyond everyone else, how come more Marths didn't randomly step onto the scene and take over the Top 8 completely?
So just because a character dominates the tournament placements, thanks to 3 specific people, it means they are the only viable character to consistently win major tournaments?
Many Competitive fighting games has a single character dominating tournament results. Very few if any of them have only one character capable of cosistently winning major tournaments. The best of the best just tierwhore a lot.
IrArby
Smash Ace
Doesn't the fact that alot of people wanted MK banned speak more to the truth that theres alot of people who don't want to play against the best character which makes their characters even more unviable. I think that speaks more volumes towards my argument than for yours that a quarter of tournament goers use him. Realistically, your sorta saying 1/4 of tournament goers plus the Snake mains (and a few other higher tier mains ((or combinations of high/top tier mains)) play the game to win. Purely to win, not to prove that they can place with Peach which is stupid IMO.
The fact that people are claiming 1/4 of the tournaments they go to are MKs and want him banned definitely coincides with my claim that those people think playing MK (and possibly other top tiers) is cheap. If they played Snake and Falco, they probably wouldn't say this as those two hardly have bad matchups with MK. In fact, picking those characters they're hardly any better than those cheap Snakes. So it follows logically that alot of those MK ProBan whiners think him cheap. So they are to honorable to stoop so low as to pick a character so high.
As far as Marth goes, game balance isn't measured by tournaments alone, or shouldn't. The tier list measures characters at their highest levels of play. If Fox's range is 8.0-10.0 and Marth's is 9.0-9.5, than Fox is better because at the highest levels of play Fox beats Marth. I know that in practical applications that isn't happening so much. But how many Pro Fox mains do we have running around. Chillin and . . .
We've already proven that Shiek could beat Marth in Melee and did so more than a few times at the highest levels of play. Yet the fact that Shiek was seemingly, underplayed at the highest levels allowed the big 3 to keep playing Marth and did little to sway their dominance. Is it not possible that the same thing has happened with Marth and Fox?
Now there is PC quasi-Fox main (thinking back to Evo2k7) and he did lose but I remember PC saying later that he likes PKStadium the best against Marth as its the only stage he can beat M2K at. Coincidentaly he won the first match at PKStadium. He also played M2K on YS twice that set for what thats worth. Anyway my point is the way PC phrased it, I'm inclined to think that he feels M2K was better than him at that tournament or at least not that his Fox wasn't up to playing well.
Lastly, niether Azen or Ken are big time technical players so I hardly think we can use thier use of Marth as proof that they felt Marth was the best Tournament winning character. Fox and Falco wouldn't really suit their style. Ken plays a very bare bones Fox if I remember. Ken was the first to make Marth big so why would he play someone else anyway.
The fact that people are claiming 1/4 of the tournaments they go to are MKs and want him banned definitely coincides with my claim that those people think playing MK (and possibly other top tiers) is cheap. If they played Snake and Falco, they probably wouldn't say this as those two hardly have bad matchups with MK. In fact, picking those characters they're hardly any better than those cheap Snakes. So it follows logically that alot of those MK ProBan whiners think him cheap. So they are to honorable to stoop so low as to pick a character so high.
As far as Marth goes, game balance isn't measured by tournaments alone, or shouldn't. The tier list measures characters at their highest levels of play. If Fox's range is 8.0-10.0 and Marth's is 9.0-9.5, than Fox is better because at the highest levels of play Fox beats Marth. I know that in practical applications that isn't happening so much. But how many Pro Fox mains do we have running around. Chillin and . . .
We've already proven that Shiek could beat Marth in Melee and did so more than a few times at the highest levels of play. Yet the fact that Shiek was seemingly, underplayed at the highest levels allowed the big 3 to keep playing Marth and did little to sway their dominance. Is it not possible that the same thing has happened with Marth and Fox?
Now there is PC quasi-Fox main (thinking back to Evo2k7) and he did lose but I remember PC saying later that he likes PKStadium the best against Marth as its the only stage he can beat M2K at. Coincidentaly he won the first match at PKStadium. He also played M2K on YS twice that set for what thats worth. Anyway my point is the way PC phrased it, I'm inclined to think that he feels M2K was better than him at that tournament or at least not that his Fox wasn't up to playing well.
Lastly, niether Azen or Ken are big time technical players so I hardly think we can use thier use of Marth as proof that they felt Marth was the best Tournament winning character. Fox and Falco wouldn't really suit their style. Ken plays a very bare bones Fox if I remember. Ken was the first to make Marth big so why would he play someone else anyway.
otg
Smash Master
and once again, another perfectly reasoned post ignored by all.
I actually had a much bigger post written up earlier but decided to slim it down.
Also, just a point...
***PEOPLE ARE AVOIDING USING METAKNIGHT BECAUSE PEOPLE LOOK DOWN ON MK USERS***
If this statement is true, it immediately skews any tournament results you are trying to use to compare Brawl to Melee.
People in melee who want to place high generally pick between the top and high tier characters, and can succeed in getting top placements with any of those characters. Fsmash spammy Marth players did well... like 3 years ago. When I watch vids from even 18 months ago, I always notice how bad even top pro level players would DI, getting them ***** by combos that were, at the time, impressive.
The metagame of both games is still evolving. You cannot compare something like overall balance because the balance of the games will change over the evolution of the metagame. Need I remind you how unbalanced Link's Up-B was in the early days of Melee?
In my own opinion, the top/high tier characters in Melee all do well vs each other. The advantages one character may have over another rarely put the matchup worse than 60/40, and ALL of the top/high tier characters randomly have bad/weird matchups vs lower tier characters.
Also, just a point...
***PEOPLE ARE AVOIDING USING METAKNIGHT BECAUSE PEOPLE LOOK DOWN ON MK USERS***
If this statement is true, it immediately skews any tournament results you are trying to use to compare Brawl to Melee.
People in melee who want to place high generally pick between the top and high tier characters, and can succeed in getting top placements with any of those characters. Fsmash spammy Marth players did well... like 3 years ago. When I watch vids from even 18 months ago, I always notice how bad even top pro level players would DI, getting them ***** by combos that were, at the time, impressive.
The metagame of both games is still evolving. You cannot compare something like overall balance because the balance of the games will change over the evolution of the metagame. Need I remind you how unbalanced Link's Up-B was in the early days of Melee?
In my own opinion, the top/high tier characters in Melee all do well vs each other. The advantages one character may have over another rarely put the matchup worse than 60/40, and ALL of the top/high tier characters randomly have bad/weird matchups vs lower tier characters.
IrArby
Smash Ace
I wasn't planning to ignore it but everyone else did and peer pressure is my biggest weakness.
EDIT: So Cactuar would you agree that alot of people puposefully avoid playing MK (and possibly other higher tiered characters that they find cheap) in tournaments? I would think you do agree from your post but I'm not sure. You said "If this statement is true" and you also said you don't really play Brawl so I'm not sure how you feel about this.
I ask not just because I value you opinion (which I do) but because I need it for my arguement. Yes, I'm using you, but in a flattering way.
I wonder if M2K sees the trend also?
Sorry for missing this the first time around.
Shockingly, a one of the top Marth players in the United States agrees whole-heartedly with my dissension of AlphaZealot's views!
Ravener
Smash Apprentice
Yer Brawl is pretty balanced as it is right now
Aren't we talking about winning?
We're still talking about 3 specific players, not Marth as a whole. Because if Marth was so good he's the only one capable of consistently winning, how come only 3 players are able to take him to such a level? Why isn't the vast majority of the Top 8 constantly filled with Marths?
Oracle
Smash Master
That reminded me of a really good post somewhere in the melee marth boards that said how very few people are actually able to take marth to his top level "ie m2k ken azen". I should go find it.
The fact that more of them place is pretty important too. Besides, if in the top 8 of a tourney, there are 6 spacies and two marths, guess who's probably gonna win.
I'm not talking about top 8, I'm talking about winning tournaments. How come no other character, ever, has won the same amount of tournaments and on the same consistent basis as THREE different people were capable of doing with Marth?
Marth.
You are saying that other characters can win on a consistent basis. I'm saying that, after 5 years, there has only been one character to ever really win on a consistent basis. You can say "well its the players!" or "other characters could win!", but in the end results are results-three people dominated with Marth, zero people dominated with any other character. Where is the evidence that other characters could win consistently? I've asked this repeatedly and heard nothing.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
No **** if Ken or M2K are in a tournament they're going to win. They're the best players, they main marth. They have secondaries and they've used them, doesn't mean ****.
This topic is about brawl balance v melee balance. In which there is no question to the right answer.
This topic is about brawl balance v melee balance. In which there is no question to the right answer.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Alpha Zealot already informed us that M2K could not win on a consistent basis until he started using Marth. He also informed us that M2K was a spacy user prior to using Marth.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
So what? The year difference this transition happened is when the entire metagame of smash was changing. A myriad of changes happened, it's not like he switched to Marth and suddenly beat Ken, Ken was out of the scene.
Players get better with time. It's not as if he goes from Marth to Fox and gets worse. He counterpicks Fox a lot and uses more Fox in teams.
Players get better with time. It's not as if he goes from Marth to Fox and gets worse. He counterpicks Fox a lot and uses more Fox in teams.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
M2K switched to Marth and suddenly went from a highest national placing of 3rd to contender for best in the world, according to Alpha Zealot.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^Marth is easier to use than Fox. At the time his Marth was indeed much better than his Fox. Because he could afford to make more mistakes (techskill-wise). He also said part of the reason he started playing Marth instead of Fox was because his controller was unresponsive sometimes (as in, not a good Fox controller. It really does matter). But when he got a new controller, he stayed as Marth because his Fox was too much out of practice. Do you think it stayed that way? No!!
Not to mention that since then Fox players have gotten better and have started to make fewer mistakes (getting closer to that "perfect Fox" thing).
I mean really, you're going off of really old tournament results and trying to apply it to the current melee metagame (which believe it or not is still growing, even with fewer players). I mean really, how recently did players start lightshield edgehogging (a hit against Marth mind you)? A year ago? Maybe a year and a half?
Not to mention that since then Fox players have gotten better and have started to make fewer mistakes (getting closer to that "perfect Fox" thing).
I mean really, you're going off of really old tournament results and trying to apply it to the current melee metagame (which believe it or not is still growing, even with fewer players). I mean really, how recently did players start lightshield edgehogging (a hit against Marth mind you)? A year ago? Maybe a year and a half?
MLG New York 2006 (April 2006) PC Chris (who apparently took it from M2K) was light shield edge hogging Ken. MLG Dallas 2006 (May/early June 2006) Ken learned to mostly avoid the light shield edge guard (up-B early so you don't hit the inside of the shield). Learn your history.
Yes Melee is still developing, but last I checked Mew2King still dominates.
Yes most players have secondaries, but in all the national tournaments I've been too (almost every MLG + FC + Pound 2 + SCC + GS2 + BOMB + probably a few others), the number of times secondaries get used is few and far between, at least for the Marth players.
I don't understand why people seem to be taking offense at the idea of Marth being amazing. All I've said is basically: look at every 100+ person tournament, count up the wins for every character, then observe that Marth is leagues ahead of the next best character. I'm not saying Melee is less balanced than Brawl or vise versa, because as I said before I think its far to early to make judgments regarding this. I'm saying people should recognize how dominant Marth really is. You can say otherwise, but you won't have the evidence to actually back up such claims.
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
He is amazing. He's a great character.
But look at the tournament results, all of it. First place doesn't mean **** if it's the same person over and over. That player is the best. You never see 8 marths in top 8.
But look at the tournament results, all of it. First place doesn't mean **** if it's the same person over and over. That player is the best. You never see 8 marths in top 8.
Because Marth isn't broken. Even if a character is broken I would also argue you would never see top 8 all being one character (because do you want to do a ditto that has been done a thousand times or try and throw the opponent a curve ball?). Funny argument though, Marth winning is irrefutable, so instead more emphasis is placed on what character gets 8th place.
We are talking about winning national tournaments on a consistent basis. Marth did it with 3 different people. 3 people is a LOT of people to come along and win consistently while no one else and no other character was capable of doing the same.
Because maybe those 3 players just happen to be three of the world's very best players, especially if they're playing as Marth (i.e., they are much more compatible with Marth than, say, Fox)!
Because if Marth is the only character capable of consistently winning tournaments, how come more Marths aren't doing it?! How come more Marths aren't dominating every other placing spot in the Top 8?!
So? Maybe his Fox just wasn't that good. He was good as Fox, but maybe Marth just suited his playing style and innate abilities better.
Guess what, Azen does better in Brawl as, oh, Peach than he does as Meta Knight, IIRC. He at least performs better as Lucario than as Meta Knight. Guess which character's better?
So the argument of "its coincidence".
We are talking about getting 1st, not getting 8th. To WIN national tournaments on a consistent basis you had to use Marth. This is true until proven otherwise (because frankly it has now been proven not once, not twice, but three times because three different people have managed to win, at the very least, back to back national tournaments using Marth-I don't know if any other character can make that claim).
Saying winning on a consistent basis and just winning are two different things keep in mind. Lots of characters could compete, Fox/Falco/Sheik/Ice Climbers (and Mango's Jiggly) could all have a chance of getting first. However everyone always assumes that a players skill level is static, and that is simply not true-people play well sometimes and play worse other times-Marth suffered probably the least of these characters if a player was "off" which is part of the reason I think he would consistently win instead of just place really high.
Frames
DI
zero challenge 3 babaaaaay pc showed him how its done, of course the week before m2k ***** pc in finals at FC but still a pefect fox has won in the past
You're not getting it.
If Marth is the only character capable of consistently winning tournaments, you're also saying that he's the best character in Melee by quite a wide margin (since he's the only character capable of whatever). By that logic, since he's so much better than everyone else, he should be taking the majority of Top 8 at all major tournaments.
By that logic, many more Marths should emerge as dominant players and winning and placing Top 8 at tournaments. Tournaments should be overrun with Marth-players since Marth's so good and requires less "perfect" play than everyone else (apparently).
By this logic, the Top 8 of every major tournament should have several Marths in them. Unless you're making the argument "It's a coincidence" that no one besides Ken, Azen and Mew2King ever took Melee Marth to the level necessary to make him "the only character capable of consistently winning tournaments".
Are you saying there just weren't that many good Marth players around? Because if you aren't, by your own logic, tournament Top 8s should be overrun with Marths, not just Ken, Mew2King and Azen consistently racking up wins.
But they didn't, did they? There weren't even that many Marths consistently placing Top 8! If Marth's the only character capable of consistently winning major tournaments, how come so few other Marths did that? How come so few of them consistently even placed Top 8 while so many other Space Animals kept placing Top 8?
You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can say "Marth's the only character capable of consistently winning tournaments... it's no coincidence that he won so many of them... BTW, it is coincidence that very few Marth-players were able to do that or even place Top 8!".
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