iRJi's Tournament Ruleset (Complete)

[Max Ketchum]

Yes, it's beatable. I agree. And MK can abuse it to a greater degree. What I dislike is his willingness to abuse it as far as he can, and the fact that that rule's absence...pretty much only exists at his tournaments. :/

It's not really that awful that his bias exists. Just something I (and MANY others) have noticed and disagree with.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Again, though, it's "biased" in the same way that a guy who is about to have his property annexed to build a parking lot is "biased" against the decision.

 

[Kaiber Kop]

I want a cookie, Kai.

You aren't a theory brawler with over the top explainations on technicalities and corrections....so you don't get one (*see pic*)

 

[Delta-cod]

SFP: If you notice, Delta and Chibo (namely the latter) continuously mention in their posts that a MK-specific LGL is the "right" thing to do and try to dodge mention of their character's names as much as possible.

Chibo removes the LGL at his tournaments and is notorious for hardcore planking. Pretty biased, imo.

To be honest, I don't even think any specific LGL is the right thing to do, either let it run amok or ban the main offender. However, since we ARE using a LGL, why should I have to be nerfed by a rule not even aimed at me? People don't go around saying "YOSHI'S PLANKING IS BROKEN!" (except maybe on WiFi, lol). It's the reason why I don't particularly mention Yoshi when I discuss LGLs. If someone can't beat Yoshi's edge game, which is limited to FIVE tosses and is INCREDIBLY vulnerable throughout, then they deserve to be timed out. The same can't be said for MK, since his planking has been proven to be broken.

 

[iRJi]

All the matches went to time. We went on SV first, where he won, then I took him to Lylat, where I won, and then he took me to Frigate, where I won. The first two matches are saved to what I believe to be ksizl's Wii. After the set ended and we reported the results, P_wii had the idea to count ledge grabs, but the replay wasn't saved and we had already closed the results away. I'm fairly certain I didn't use the ledge THAT much against him game 3 merely based on the fact that he was punishing me for it EXTREMELY well the entire set.



Yoshi's edge game isn't even that good. It's SO open and incredibly punishable, the fact that I'm not consistently punished for it is AMAZING. The only thing it's good for is to retreat to temporarily and to soften up the opponent before getting back on stage. That's it. I can't even camp from there the entire game, and even if I could, it's not even that effective. Having it limited because of some other character's problem is dumb.

Can you try to get the replays from Ksizzle to me please. I would like to watch them if you don't mind delta.

Edit: Also, for anyone who wants to talk to me on AIM about this as well, my AIM is:

RJ Rawrr

I only ask you to also voice what you might say to me on this thread as well, for record purposes as well as any thoughts that may spark anything to another player.

 

[Delta-cod]

I actually intended to get them up so I could get them critiqued, since I don't have any recent videos. I'll send the links to you if I get them.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I understand, Delta. It's still a ****ty situation and I don't know what to say. Like I mentioned before, I could take the approach (which people have been taking regarding DDD infinites) of "Well those characters suck anyway, so they'll have to deal with it", which kind of makes sense. Why remove a LGL to artificially better already bad characters? Then again, why instate a LGL to artificially make a potentially broken character legal?

 

[Delta-cod]

And another situation, why instate a rule to artificially limit an already bad character?

Anyways, I see the whole dilemma here, I just want to add my .02. However, if a universal LGL of 20 is instated, I will be super pissed.

 

[Punishment Divine]

What I am worried about is if we widely keep LGL out of rulesets, what will happen to the community? I fear that the time period that it will take to realize that MK is broken along with the fact that we COULD instate a LGL will just kill the community

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I understand, Delta. It's still a ****ty situation and I don't know what to say. Like I mentioned before, I could take the approach (which people have been taking regarding DDD infinites) of "Well those characters suck anyway, so they'll have to deal with it", which kind of makes sense. Why remove a LGL to artificially better already bad characters? Then again, why instate a LGL to artificially make a potentially broken character legal?

I argue that neither are justifiable. I've actually said it before in another thread:

If we aren't banning infinites to make certain characters more viable (Ness/Lucas/DK, etc.. the SBR doesn't ban these, even though NJ often does) because it's anti-competitive and scrubby, then why are we making surgical changes to repair a broken mechanic and character?

I'm not really convinced it's the mechanic though, because the other characters in the game seem to have no problem interacting with it in a balanced way.

 

[Inferno3044]

There's no reason to reduce the ledge grab rule. It was already said here that reducing the LGL won't stop MK because they don't need to grab the ledge a lot while on the other hand would limit characters with good ledge games. If we're trying to make MK not so broken, stages seems like a logical start. Maybe add some stages that can be legal but don't benefit MK so much. I'm not sure if MK is amazing on these stages, but I'd add PS2 and Pictochat.

 

[Delta-cod]

NO. Don't add PS2 if you want to hurt MK. @_@

Pictochat and Mario Circuit, please. Remove RC or Brinstar, as well, so he can't have an auto-**** stage.

Assuming we're trying to alter the stage list to hurt MK, of course.

 

[Inui]

I'd rather play on Wario Ware than Pictochat.

If we're going to add massive amounts of luck and BS to a match, I at least want it to be fun.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'd rather play on Pictochat than Wario Ware.

If we're going to add massive amounts of luck and BS to a match, I at least want to be able to camp my heart out.

 

[_Yes!_]

I'd rather play on Pictochat than Wario Ware.

If we're *****ing about massive amounts of luck and BS to a match, please remove Halberd, Stadium 1, Delfino, Castle Seige, Lylat, Yoshis, Brinstar, etc.

 

[Inferno3044]

NO. Don't add PS2 if you want to hurt MK. @_@

Pictochat and Mario Circuit, please. Remove RC or Brinstar, as well, so he can't have an auto-**** stage.

Assuming we're trying to alter the stage list to hurt MK, of course.

Mario Circuit? I have no idea what you're thinking but the biggest thing against this would be a walkoff for the entire time. Although it would help the Yoshi vs. MK MU, I'm not sure if it would be that good. inb4BridgeOfEldin

Also if you had to remove one of those stages, remove RC. Brinstar helps balance characters that are very good on neutrals (Falco, ICs, Diddy?, D3?).

I'd rather play on Wario Ware than Pictochat.

If we're going to add massive amounts of luck and BS to a match, I at least want it to be fun.

It's not that chance based. There's some set time limit which I don't know off the top of my head in which obstacles switch. Also, there is a fair amount of area that is safe between switches. You have to use the stage to your advantage like every other stage. It could be a dumber stage (Norfair)

I'd rather play on Pictochat than Wario Ware.

If we're *****ing about massive amounts of luck and BS to a match, please remove Halberd, Stadium 1, Delfino, Castle Seige, Lylat, Yoshis, Brinstar, etc.

So are we just down to BF and FD?

 

[CT Chia]

What I am worried about is if we widely keep LGL out of rulesets, what will happen to the community? I fear that the time period that it will take to realize that MK is broken along with the fact that we COULD instate a LGL will just kill the community

MK is just as broken, if not moreso with an LGL than without.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'd rather play on Pictochat than Wario Ware.

If we're *****ing about massive amounts of luck and BS to a match, please remove Halberd, Stadium 1, Delfino, Castle Seige, Lylat, Yoshis, Brinstar, etc.

<3

Mario Circuit? I have no idea what you're thinking but the biggest thing against this would be a walkoff for the entire time. Although it would help the Yoshi vs. MK MU, I'm not sure if it would be that good. inb4BridgeOfEldin

Also if you had to remove one of those stages, remove RC. Brinstar helps balance characters that are very good on neutrals (Falco, ICs, Diddy?, D3?).

Yoshi's CG on Mario Circuit does not walk off due to the platforms, except on Falco and possibly others that GR low. I'm looking at it mainly for the fact that I can't be gimped, I have A LOT of space to run on, and my CG can get some nice damage in due to the long stage in general.

I've argued about the walkoff already. DDD is the main one who would abuse it, but get this: The stage is HUGE. You can run from him all day. Camp him to death. You have no reason to approach DDD on this stage. Furthermore, you can simply ban it.

"But Delta, this forces us to use our ban on Mario Circuit in fear of pocket DDDs/DDD mains!"

Rainbow Cruise. You are FORCED to ban it against MK in general. Either that or Brinstar. If this is an argument, ban RC/Brinstar.

"But then DDD still has a strong other CP!"

Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar. Death traps that are used by MK to **** people. You have to ban one, but he still has another near auto-win. At least DDD is VERY beatable on FD, just simply powerful. I don't think any character other than MK can beat MK on Brinstar, maybe Wario. MAYBE. If you don't know what to do.

It's not that chance based. There's some set time limit which I don't know off the top of my head in which obstacles switch. Also, there is a fair amount of area that is safe between switches. You have to use the stage to your advantage like every other stage. It could be a dumber stage (Norfair)

IIRC, the drawings appear every 13 seconds. There is also a LARGE safezone at the bottom left that extends along the ground for like, half the stage.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Pictochat is ********.

The hazard it chooses is random. You don't know if it'll end up killing you, trapping you, causing your character to become unable to recover (ZSS cannot recover with the diagonal line active), getting you comboed to death/wall infinited, etc. It's stupid. Why should a player be FORCED to watch the clock instead of the match...for the entire thing? EVERY 13 seconds, some bull**** happens. Pictochat should not be legal.

Mario Circuit doesn't seem that bad...in theory. Static walkoffs are really gay, though. (Yoshi can't abuse it, you can't actually CG Falco -_-) Characters like Snake and Falco can stand at the walkoffs throwing/shooting **** and CONSTANTLY be threatening to any character due to the cars on the overpass eliminating aerial approaches and cars going through the center telegraphing the type of approach that will be taken. If/when you do get in, you're a throw away from death or a reset of the situation. When DDD has a percent lead against a character without a projectile (or with one that is stopped by the cars), he can sit at the edge for as long as he pleases throwing Waddles and keep you out with ftilt/bair, or eliminate your stock with a chaingrab.

Granted, this does help the other high tier characters while hurting MK, and is still bannable. DDD is beatable on Castle Siege/Delfino anyway.

PS2 is ****ing awful, LOL.

Chibo, how is MK more broken with the LGL? <_< Because ROB, Pit, Yoshi, and GW can't plank him as hard? lol.

 

[CT Chia]

More broken because the gap between him + everyone else increases

Because it hurts everyone but him. MK can time people out just as fine with or without the LGL

 

[Max Ketchum]

What other characters are going to come even close to 35-40 grabs even if they're TRYING to be defensive on the ledge? For Yoshi, that's 7 or 8 rounds of maximum egg spam. ROB has to land on the level to recharge his fuel eventually. Their ledge games aren't THAT good that they'll have to exceed that limit to play the ledge normally.

 

[Inferno3044]

Pictochat is ********.

The hazard it chooses is random. You don't know if it'll end up killing you, trapping you, causing your character to become unable to recover (ZSS cannot recover with the diagonal line active), getting you comboed to death/wall infinited, etc. It's stupid. Why should a player be FORCED to watch the clock instead of the match...for the entire thing? EVERY 13 seconds, some bull**** happens. Pictochat should not be legal.

As Delta said, there's a safe zone and it's not small. About the left half of the stage. You aren't forced to watch the clock either. It's not like it'll be like "omg this drawing is gonna appear on me and im gonna die." We have luck based things like Frigate flip, what part of Delfino you're on. Plus we have temporary wall infinites on Delfino/RC. Pictochat should at least be up for discussion.

PS2 is ****ing awful, LOL.

Can you tell me why? I really don't see what's so bad about it.

 

[CT Chia]

35 is really low, it's very easy to go over that without stalling

and you said it yourself theyr ledge play isn't that good
and RJ thinks ledge play (by characters not named MK) is banworthy

 

[Delta-cod]

Doom, we can CG Falco. It's been proven by Frame data, it just needs to be frame perfect (not a problem with buffering.) We've checked this like, every other month for almost a year.

For Pictochat, players are forced to simply keep an eye on the timer every so often. You can also just get the feel for the stage and simply know when it's going to happen by feeling time go by, rather than watching the clock. You're safe from most of the hazards anyways by simply standing on the ground.

And so what if tethers can't tether the ledge when the diagonal line is active? The odds of being gimped by that line appearing while you're off stage are so slim that I can't imagine it being a problem. If you're hit out that way after the line has appeared, you must have been on top, so you should have positioned yourself better. There is also no ledge on the right side of Frigate, although it is static during that transformation. But hey, the stage might flip and screw you over that one time!

Being trapped on Picto is generally BENEFICIAL to you, since most of the traps can be escaped through jumping out of the lines. However, you're safe on the inside, so you can safely camp your opponent through there. This is no different than the transformations on PS1, which make approaching nearly impossible (Windmill, Burning Tree, Cliff).

 

[Max Ketchum]

As Delta said, there's a safe zone and it's not small. About the left half of the stage. You aren't forced to watch the clock either. It's not like it'll be like "omg this drawing is gonna appear on me and im gonna die." We have luck based things like Frigate flip, what part of Delfino you're on. Plus we have temporary wall infinites on Delfino/RC. Pictochat should at least be up for discussion.

lol...

Please tell me how ZSS can guarantee a spot in the safe zone when the line spawns. If she's off the left edge, she loses a stock for no reason other than poor design. And yes, the drawing CAN appear on you and kill you. The cart is obscenely powerful, the fire/plant/rockets can all do a lot of damage, and you can get utterly ****ed over by the wind/wall/spikes/etc. The hazards are very stupid and do not come in a set order.

Frigate flipping is not luck-based. It gives you CLEAR warning as to when it's gonna happen (via sound AND visuals), and only requires a simple jump to avoid a hazard. If you are in midair, the flip absolutely does not affect you. Being underneath the stage and standing on the ground are the ONLY ways you can get ***** by the stage, and you have enough warning from the siren to prevent both from happening.

How is there ANYTHING on Delfino luck-based other than the starting transformation (which is never anything severe that can hurt you)? Yes, there are temporary wall infinites, nothing that can outright kill you, and other things such as platforms and water at the same time. The transformations also occur much less frequently than the Pictochat drawings and follow a set pattern.

Can you tell me why? I really don't see what's so bad about it.

...LOL



Chibo: No, it's not banworthy. But seriously, 35 grabs? That's...a LOT. Unless you're trying to, you probably won't reach that.

Delta: How the hell can you camp your opponents from inside the lines? Also, you're not entirely safe, as on quite a few transformations most characters can actually hit you through them, and lower-mobility characters (see: NOT MK) are ****ed inside them.

The fact that the stage becomes limited to a small safe zone that you can actually be hit into (unlike Brinstar, save spikes) at such a frequent rate is dumb. While the chances of being gimped by that line's appearance are slim, there's also a large chance of some other dumb hazard being on the screen at the same time that can lead to MASSIVE amounts of damage or the loss of a stock.

Btw, it's not just her tether--her down B will automatically bounce off the wall and send her to her death.

 

[CT Chia]

Chibo: No, it's not banworthy. But seriously, 35 grabs? That's...a LOT. Unless you're trying to, you probably won't reach that.

False, I've hit it quite a lot depending on the matchups, and that's without stalling. If you're MK maybe, but as a projectile user, I'm constantly attacking from the ledge, which really doesn't make it stalling at all.

 

[Delta-cod]

Delta: How the hell can you camp your opponents from inside the lines? Also, you're not entirely safe, as on quite a few transformations most characters can actually hit you through them, and lower-mobility characters (see: NOT MK) are ****ed inside them.

The fact that the stage becomes limited to a small safe zone that you can actually be hit into (unlike Brinstar, save spikes) at such a frequent rate is dumb. While the chances of being gimped by that line's appearance are slim, there's also a large chance of some other dumb hazard being on the screen at the same time that can lead to MASSIVE amounts of damage or the loss of a stock.

Btw, it's not just her tether--her down B will automatically bounce off the wall and send her to her death.

You can attack through the lines in general. I've played on it a few times with Yoshi, and when I was trapped in the whale, for example, I could throw eggs at people from inside it. It was very safe. You can't really be hit through the lines if you stay center. Whale is massively safe, as is the brick wall. The boat might not be, neither will the face thing. You can always simply jump out of them.

The hazard damage is a pretty weak argument. The fire does like, 1 damage per hit and you can DI out of that very easily. The spikes and plant do heavy damage, but if you've been sent flying as they appear, you CAN react to them and AD through or jump away. The cart can be dealt with similarly. The rockets are the main problem I see, but you should only get hit by one in the first place if you DI correctly. They should also be able to be reacted to. The only hazards that kill reasonably early are the spikes, IIRC.

For tethers, the possibility of a random drawing ruining their recovery is slim. On Frigate, the flips may not be spontaneous, but they ARE random. You're warned as to when it's going to flip, but you don't know when the warning is going to come. For Pictochat, you know WHEN something's going to happen, but not what's going to happen. They're both similar, and can both cause unfortunate things to happen. Being prepared for this stage makes it a powerful CP, especially if others haven't put the time in to learn it.

 

[_Yes!_]

Doom,

The reason I listed delfino/castle seige/ps1 for random luck based crap is because your character can sink through the stage as it transformed. It's happened to me alot...

 

[Inui]

ATTN: Anyone that wants to take me to Pictochat

I will agree to literally any banned stage in the entire game instead.

 

[_Yes!_]

ATTN: Anyone that wants to take me to Pictochat

I will agree to literally any banned stage in the entire game instead.

Port Town let's go!

 

[Inferno3044]

ATTN: Anyone that wants to take me to Pictochat

I will agree to literally any banned stage in the entire game instead.

Taking you to Big Blue and Spear Pillar.

 

[Inui]

That's only if Pictochat is legal. If not, then lolno.

 

[_Yes!_]

Inui fears my Port Town might because I'm way better than him.

 

[AllyKnight]

give mk 3more jumps then the rules should be good to go.

 

[Inui]

Inui fears my Port Town might because I'm way better than him.

I'll play you there over Pictochat.

I'll especially play with you there if we're on the same team.

 

[Delta-cod]

Distant Planet.

Oh my god Yoshi is so amazing there.

 

[_Yes!_]

I'll play you there over Pictochat.

I'll especially play with you there if we're on the same team.

yesssss :D let's do it.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

I just want to say to Doom.

Melee people watched the timer on Yoshi's Story, to locate the Cloud almost at ALL TIMES. So you're telling me people can't eye a timer during a match in BRAWL but they can in MELEE....

"Watching the timer" is an invalid argument

PERSONALLY this is what I think the Neutral/CP list should be

Neutral:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Smashville
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 1
Halberd

Counterpicks:
Brinstar
Delfino Plaza
Pictochat
Frigate Orpheon
Castle Siege
Pokemon Stadium 2

For PS2's "wind" area, people argue that "MK will just kill you with up air up air up air nado", I disagree as with the transformations on Delfino and Siege, DDD has a walkoff he can just grab people and kill them(most of the roster). You can avoid getting hit by Mk into the air like an upair for a transformation if you can avoid a grab by DDD for a transformation.

 

[Inui]

I didn't watch the time on that stage.

I was too busy killing people at 50% with Ganondorf's f-air.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Uh, nope, Shippo. You can see the cloud 50% of the time, no need to watch the timer intently. Also, the cloud's appearance does not do damage to you and potentially take your stock. It functions like the platforms on Yoshi's in Brawl, in that it can save you sometimes, but it is not going to pose an active threat.

With Pictochat, if a drawing spawns and you're not in the safe zone (the entire idea of limiting play to a small area of the stage is ridiculous), you may just be ****ed. Could lose a valuable lead by percent or stock, or get put in some stupid transformation (again, the blocks favor characters with superior mobility, AKA MK).

They aren't just minor hazards. They consume a large majority of the stage for HALF the time.