PowerBomb
Smash Master
You could try Birijion/Breloom. They lose their Fire-type weakness in Rain, and the former can sweep easier with STAB Close Combat while the latter can Spore Nattorei and set up a subpunch routine.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Terywj [태리]
- Start date
Poliwrath gets Swift Swim. His fighting movepool isn't the greatest, but at the very least you could run Overhead Throw and phaze Nattorei.
Kofu
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2009
- Messages
- 4,609
- Location
- The caffeine-free state
- NNID
- Atoyont
- 3DS FC
- 1521-4492-7542
From what I've seen, Deoxys-D isn't as much as a wall as it is a stalling machine: http://www.smogon.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3074350
Additionally, not only does it get Magic Coat, Taunt isn't necessarily inferior, as it can do what you want it to do when you want it to.
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
I just used Wobbuffet, he outspeeds Nattorei so if you happen to catch him trying to hit one of your sweepers with power whip on the switch you can just counter your way to a KO, alternatively encore his passive move and switch to someone who can at least hit him for a good chunk of health/stat up (in my team I'd use my Ludicolo with HP Fighting). It's not exactly like Wobbuffet is a burden either.
ss118
Smash Master
What else does Payback hit other than Shadow Tag Shandera(which doesn't exist yet)?
ss118
Smash Master
I'm confused. @_@
What are people's opinions on Deoxys-A? The set I use is
Deoxys-A @ Life Orb
Pressure: Adamant
4 HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed
Zen Headbutt
Extremespeed
Drain Punch
Fire Punch
It's a very simple and effective attacker. Either lead with it or find some miraculous time to get it in(on the revenge or off a U-Turn/ Volt Change) and just pound at everything. Zen Headbutt is primary STAB with a gay chance at flinching stuff(should it come to that). Extremespeed is amazing; even ignoring the extra priority, it is as powerful as Scizor's Bullet Punch.
394 with CB goes up 197 points to 591. 591 * 90 (with STAB and Technitian) is 48190.
504 with LO goes up ~151 points(rounded down) to 655. 655 * 80 is 52400.
So actually more powerful than CB Scizor's Bullet Punch.
Drain Punch is a very viable choice as a fighting move, since it negates the opponent's ability to stall you with your own LO. Brick Break breaks screens, and Superpower sacrifices your overall power for a stronger initial hit. Finally, Fire Punch rounds out the set hitting Scizor and Nattorei harder as well as actually hitting Sabeleye and Spiritomb. I'm considering using Substitute over Fire Punch for general switches and the potential to **** over a T-tar switch-in by subbing -> drain punch. You also get double chances to flinch with zen headbutt, and the ability to kill faster pokemon with E-speed more thoroughly.
Between using Deoxys-A and Deoxys-N on Pokemon Online, the only KO I've felt I've lost is on Shandera with no SR, but then again I gain ~70% bulk that allows me to take random Fake Outs and Mach Punches from Roopushin, among others.
What are people's opinions on Deoxys-A? The set I use is
Deoxys-A @ Life Orb
Pressure: Adamant
4 HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed
Zen Headbutt
Extremespeed
Drain Punch
Fire Punch
It's a very simple and effective attacker. Either lead with it or find some miraculous time to get it in(on the revenge or off a U-Turn/ Volt Change) and just pound at everything. Zen Headbutt is primary STAB with a gay chance at flinching stuff(should it come to that). Extremespeed is amazing; even ignoring the extra priority, it is as powerful as Scizor's Bullet Punch.
394 with CB goes up 197 points to 591. 591 * 90 (with STAB and Technitian) is 48190.
504 with LO goes up ~151 points(rounded down) to 655. 655 * 80 is 52400.
So actually more powerful than CB Scizor's Bullet Punch.
Drain Punch is a very viable choice as a fighting move, since it negates the opponent's ability to stall you with your own LO. Brick Break breaks screens, and Superpower sacrifices your overall power for a stronger initial hit. Finally, Fire Punch rounds out the set hitting Scizor and Nattorei harder as well as actually hitting Sabeleye and Spiritomb. I'm considering using Substitute over Fire Punch for general switches and the potential to **** over a T-tar switch-in by subbing -> drain punch. You also get double chances to flinch with zen headbutt, and the ability to kill faster pokemon with E-speed more thoroughly.
Between using Deoxys-A and Deoxys-N on Pokemon Online, the only KO I've felt I've lost is on Shandera with no SR, but then again I gain ~70% bulk that allows me to take random Fake Outs and Mach Punches from Roopushin, among others.
I don't see the point of sub beyond dealing with Scarf Shandera, which you could actually outspeed if you went Jolly. Priority is something that would force a switch, but that's ok since you need the coverage from Fire Punch to hit steels/sableye/tomb.
ss118
Smash Master
Speaking of Sableye...
Sableye @ Leftovers
Mischevious Heart: Bold
252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 Sp. Defense
Dark Pulse
Calm Mind
Recover
Will-o-Wisp
Priority CM, Recover, and WoW to keep your defenses up and wreck havoc. Dark Pulse when you finally want to win.... or just use Taunt and watch them ragequit. =P
Sableye @ Leftovers
Mischevious Heart: Bold
252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 Sp. Defense
Dark Pulse
Calm Mind
Recover
Will-o-Wisp
Priority CM, Recover, and WoW to keep your defenses up and wreck havoc. Dark Pulse when you finally want to win.... or just use Taunt and watch them ragequit. =P
Burungeru, Gengar, Lati@s, Starmie, Shinbora, Azelf, Celebi, Slowbro, etc.
More types resist Grass than they do Dark, so Payback is generally just a good catch-all for pokemon that are faster than you who are either resistant to Gyro Ball or if you're out of PP.
If EV'd correctly, most Nattorei can survive non-Specs Shandera Flamethrower. Overheat is the real concern, Nattorei can almost never survive that.
And Shandera always switches into you so you should have already set up rocks by that point.
![Terywj [태리]](/data/avatars/l/71/71007.jpg?1555906021){kind=avatar}
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
Gates, I'm curious, ever since Payback no longer hits the switch-in for base 100 power, why wouldn't you use STAB Power Whip the Burungeru, Slowbro, or Starmie in the first place? Most (read: all?) bulky Water-types can't do much to Nattorei anyway, since Nattorei resists Surf / Boiling Water / Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt / Psychic and only takes neutral damage from Ice Beam, which shouldn't be so bad with his stellar defenss+Leech Seed. That can free up a slot for entry hazards or whatever have you. I guess it's dependant on the set you run, but that's just my opinion.
It's not necessarily even about hitting them on the switch, it's more the fact that Nattorei outslows everything except NFEs, Shubargo, and Shuckle, so Payback will always hit for 100 damage. When they come in on you, you're usually using Spikes or something so you probably wouldn't have hit them anyway. There's also the issue of Power Whip's accuracy. It's not bad compared to other widely used moves, but the lack of accuracy can be a big issue if you're playing stall and need consistency (which I always do).
Yes, I just invented the word outslows. DealWithIt.gif
Yes, I just invented the word outslows. DealWithIt.gif
Zook
Perpetual Lazy Bum
Shed Shell Nattore and Flash Fire Shandera have awesome synergy. I've been using the duo lately, and it's awesome.
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
I've been actually running something off of that, where physically defensive Nattorei and specially defensive Burungeru, helping with amazing synergy and setting up any needed hazards. All the while, I have a Flash Fire Shandera with Pain Split which really catches people off guard. Works well. :D
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
can garchomp and doryuuzu be banned, they're so dumb it's not even funny
i've swept multiple kids with garchomp cause it's dumb and doryuuzu is pretty dumb itself, outspeeding everything up to positive base 130 scarfed when jolly, up to base 115 when adamant, it's just dumb
they take no skill to use whatsoever, can be used on the same team with no bad effects to them, they're just....dumb
PO is haxy, there are way too many instances of stuff hitting multiple times in a row when it clearly shouldn't (burning 3 of my team members 3 turns in a row, getting protect to work 5 turns in a row, the list goes on)
the "see opponents team before the battle" is ******** and needs to go
evasion clause needs to return
really, do these fixes and this gen is much more satisfying, ditto nor shandera are as bad as these things
i've swept multiple kids with garchomp cause it's dumb and doryuuzu is pretty dumb itself, outspeeding everything up to positive base 130 scarfed when jolly, up to base 115 when adamant, it's just dumb
they take no skill to use whatsoever, can be used on the same team with no bad effects to them, they're just....dumb
PO is haxy, there are way too many instances of stuff hitting multiple times in a row when it clearly shouldn't (burning 3 of my team members 3 turns in a row, getting protect to work 5 turns in a row, the list goes on)
the "see opponents team before the battle" is ******** and needs to go
evasion clause needs to return
really, do these fixes and this gen is much more satisfying, ditto nor shandera are as bad as these things
ss118
Smash Master
Both of those pokemon are walled by skarmory. they aren't dumb, you play people that suck.
The protect thing is correct; I've had multiple instances of protecting 5+ times in a row. Never had the flamethrower thing happen, though.
You need to elaborate before you remove the team preview. I like it and makes this generation easier to handle.
Lack of Evasion clause is stupid.
The protect thing is correct; I've had multiple instances of protecting 5+ times in a row. Never had the flamethrower thing happen, though.
You need to elaborate before you remove the team preview. I like it and makes this generation easier to handle.
Lack of Evasion clause is stupid.
xxmoosexx
Smash Lord
Alright.
For Garchomp...he should be banned.
Doryuzuu is handable. Roobushin and Breloom obviously give it probs.
Any physical wall that is ground/steel can take atleast ONE hit from them due to their type coverage.
And about protect/other miscelanneous multi hitting moves...yea i've noticed it too.
BUT YOU CAN CHANGE WHETHER OR NOT THEY SEE YOUR TEAM!!!
Go look under the toolbar. I forget which setting it was.
I got fed up with the lack of the element of surprise. You can change it though.
Okay I came here to talk about Terakion. Sorry if he has already been discussed but I think he is the greatest physical attacker IMO.
91 129 90 72 90 108--Those are pretty darn good stats. 91HP 129 Atk 90Def 90 SpDef and 108 Speed
With a SpDef boost and good HP along with one point away from 130, resistant to stealth rock, good defenses and great speed this thing is a beast.
So far in the metagame I haven't been walled out ONCE with this thing.(Crits on Skarmory lol)
Lets go over his Pros.
-Recieves SpDef Boost in sand
-GREAT STAB(Rock, Fighting) Go look at what that covers.
-Has X scissor(for more coverage)
-That trollish 108 speed
- 128? Atk
- Access to Swords Dance
-HIS ABILITY IS GREAT
Every time he is hit by a dark type attack he gets a 50% atk boost.
I've personally been using Nattoeri-Moltres(Better for my team, weak to steels and breloom and roobushin), but Nattorei-Burungeru can really bait those dark type attacks. Im running a SandBalanced team.
Forretress
Hippowdon
Moltres
Nattorei
Terakion
Doryuzuu
Cons
Weak to mach punch
I will edit it with some exact stats after I get some more time.
I was using a previous version of this team with Heatran Dory and Buruengru and Nattorei and peaked at 340 on the TR server. But then got absolutely man-handled by Loom and Roobu.
For Garchomp...he should be banned.
Doryuzuu is handable. Roobushin and Breloom obviously give it probs.
Any physical wall that is ground/steel can take atleast ONE hit from them due to their type coverage.
And about protect/other miscelanneous multi hitting moves...yea i've noticed it too.
BUT YOU CAN CHANGE WHETHER OR NOT THEY SEE YOUR TEAM!!!
Go look under the toolbar. I forget which setting it was.
I got fed up with the lack of the element of surprise. You can change it though.
Okay I came here to talk about Terakion. Sorry if he has already been discussed but I think he is the greatest physical attacker IMO.
91 129 90 72 90 108--Those are pretty darn good stats. 91HP 129 Atk 90Def 90 SpDef and 108 Speed
With a SpDef boost and good HP along with one point away from 130, resistant to stealth rock, good defenses and great speed this thing is a beast.
So far in the metagame I haven't been walled out ONCE with this thing.(Crits on Skarmory lol)
Lets go over his Pros.
-Recieves SpDef Boost in sand
-GREAT STAB(Rock, Fighting) Go look at what that covers.
-Has X scissor(for more coverage)
-That trollish 108 speed
- 128? Atk
- Access to Swords Dance
-HIS ABILITY IS GREAT
Every time he is hit by a dark type attack he gets a 50% atk boost.
I've personally been using Nattoeri-Moltres(Better for my team, weak to steels and breloom and roobushin), but Nattorei-Burungeru can really bait those dark type attacks. Im running a SandBalanced team.
Forretress
Hippowdon
Moltres
Nattorei
Terakion
Doryuzuu
Cons
Weak to mach punch
I will edit it with some exact stats after I get some more time.
I was using a previous version of this team with Heatran Dory and Buruengru and Nattorei and peaked at 340 on the TR server. But then got absolutely man-handled by Loom and Roobu.
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
Moltres is **** (Also team reveal doen't mean what you think it means).
"A large problem I have with team reveal is that one person can still play recklessly and get a win because you know the opponent's counters. "Oh I only have to kill Skarmory and then I'm free to sweep with Doryuuzu. Good to know that I can sacrifice anything I want now as long as that one Pokemon dies". It eliminates any need for safety while playing because they can't surprise you with a counter mid-game. It decreases the need for long-term thinking because you already have your objectives laid out in front of you before you start the battle, there is nothing that can come up in the middle of the match that can change what you need to do to pull off a win (barring the rare massive hax match). You have a blueprint to follow on how to beat your opponent and there is basically nothing your opponent can do besides hope that they're faster. "I took out that lead Weavile, now I sweep with DDMence turn 3!" That doesn't lead to competitive pokemon battles in my view, but having to scout your opponent's team to make sure it's safe for that Mence does.
Team reveal makes strategies more linear, rather than a path that branches off with new possibilities at the end of every turn. It takes options out of matches rather than putting them back in.
The only surprises in a game with team reveals are the movesets of the pokemon, and most of the time that is irrelevant because most pokemon are dealt with in the same way no matter what their moveset is. Swords Dance Scizor is not much different than Choice Band Scizor, and you can be **** sure it's not running a surprise Special Attacking set. I know that there are some exceptions to this rule, but they are far outnumbered by the pokemon that can only one style of competitive set."
"A large problem I have with team reveal is that one person can still play recklessly and get a win because you know the opponent's counters. "Oh I only have to kill Skarmory and then I'm free to sweep with Doryuuzu. Good to know that I can sacrifice anything I want now as long as that one Pokemon dies". It eliminates any need for safety while playing because they can't surprise you with a counter mid-game. It decreases the need for long-term thinking because you already have your objectives laid out in front of you before you start the battle, there is nothing that can come up in the middle of the match that can change what you need to do to pull off a win (barring the rare massive hax match). You have a blueprint to follow on how to beat your opponent and there is basically nothing your opponent can do besides hope that they're faster. "I took out that lead Weavile, now I sweep with DDMence turn 3!" That doesn't lead to competitive pokemon battles in my view, but having to scout your opponent's team to make sure it's safe for that Mence does.
Team reveal makes strategies more linear, rather than a path that branches off with new possibilities at the end of every turn. It takes options out of matches rather than putting them back in.
The only surprises in a game with team reveals are the movesets of the pokemon, and most of the time that is irrelevant because most pokemon are dealt with in the same way no matter what their moveset is. Swords Dance Scizor is not much different than Choice Band Scizor, and you can be **** sure it's not running a surprise Special Attacking set. I know that there are some exceptions to this rule, but they are far outnumbered by the pokemon that can only one style of competitive set."
ss118
Smash Master
Hello j7r. >__________<
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
Was meant to put that in inverted commas. Derp
Circa
Smash Champion
That reminds me. I totally used to run a mixed Scizor to take out specific threats. It hardly ever got the specific threat, but when it did it was like the best **** ever.
**** you Gyarados. You need to be on more teams so I can get the satisfaction of murdering you with HP Electric more often.
**** you Gyarados. You need to be on more teams so I can get the satisfaction of murdering you with HP Electric more often.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Dumb idea for multi battles:
Ice Breath -> Somethign with anger point.
Discuss
Ice Breath -> Somethign with anger point.
Discuss
ss118
Smash Master
Not as dumb as you think. If you kill the other 2 or 3 members of the opposing team, who cares how much damage you did to your partner?
Circa
Smash Champion
It'd be better if it weren't for the fact that everything that gets Anger Point is as frail as a cheeseburger. Not to mention the fact that all of them lack priority. And in kirby's example, the problem is that the best abuser of the strategy is also the only one that's weak to Ice Breath.
Tauros is probably your best bet, sadly. Use Scarf Furijio and a standard Anger Management Tauros. Furijio's Ice Breath + Sub is a guaranteed Salac boost, so at best you're running a +6 / +1 Tauros and sitting behind a sub, and at worst you're just running a +6 / +1 Tauros.
...unless your opponent has something with priority, in which case gtfo.
Tauros is probably your best bet, sadly. Use Scarf Furijio and a standard Anger Management Tauros. Furijio's Ice Breath + Sub is a guaranteed Salac boost, so at best you're running a +6 / +1 Tauros and sitting behind a sub, and at worst you're just running a +6 / +1 Tauros.
...unless your opponent has something with priority, in which case gtfo.
xxmoosexx
Smash Lord
Did tauros get anything new this gen?
xxmoosexx
Smash Lord
Sweet. Encourage. It will make him better in UU significantly.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
i really don't think the tiers are going to change much outside of adding the 5th gen pokes
there isn't a significant change in the metagame this gen, unlike the past few
yea there are new items, moves, abilities, etc, there just isn't a complete overhaul of the system like there was in the past 3 generations
basically what was OU 4th gen will be OU 5th gen along with the OU 5th gen pokes, and you can go down the list
the pokes i feel that will most likely move out of OU are infernape and snorlax
they got hit hard with all the new additions, it's much harder for them to pose threats for teams, heck snorlax was barely a threat in gen 4 and it has a harder time in gen 5 from the looks of things
with SS teams running around, dory and garchomp are going to be everywhere, infernape cannot outrun dory in SS (no matter what) and it can't beat garchomp straight up without HP ice (in which is a 2HKO no matter what while nape gets OHKO'd)
this is also assuming no Dream World abilities, with them, there's a huge mix-up as Ditto becomes the only revenge killer you'll ever need, garchomp and dory are nowhere close to being broken, shandera is a monster, and there are a whole bunch of new toys for the old guys to take care of
but in general, gen 5 seems like it's going to be gen 4 with more pokes
the only gen 5 items i see are balloon and evolution stone
one thing that might change is the machamp leads, i don't see them anywhere
there isn't a significant change in the metagame this gen, unlike the past few
yea there are new items, moves, abilities, etc, there just isn't a complete overhaul of the system like there was in the past 3 generations
basically what was OU 4th gen will be OU 5th gen along with the OU 5th gen pokes, and you can go down the list
the pokes i feel that will most likely move out of OU are infernape and snorlax
they got hit hard with all the new additions, it's much harder for them to pose threats for teams, heck snorlax was barely a threat in gen 4 and it has a harder time in gen 5 from the looks of things
with SS teams running around, dory and garchomp are going to be everywhere, infernape cannot outrun dory in SS (no matter what) and it can't beat garchomp straight up without HP ice (in which is a 2HKO no matter what while nape gets OHKO'd)
this is also assuming no Dream World abilities, with them, there's a huge mix-up as Ditto becomes the only revenge killer you'll ever need, garchomp and dory are nowhere close to being broken, shandera is a monster, and there are a whole bunch of new toys for the old guys to take care of
but in general, gen 5 seems like it's going to be gen 4 with more pokes
the only gen 5 items i see are balloon and evolution stone
one thing that might change is the machamp leads, i don't see them anywhere
What about weather pokemon becoming a lot better?
What about Mischevious Heart making a lot of pokemon better?
What about Encourage making Nidoking and other pokemon better?
What about Evolution Stone making NFEs better?
What about a bunch of the stuff in Gen V making a bunch of the Gen IV OUs a lot worse, either by countering them or being better at the same functions?
What about Ditto going from NU to arguably Uber?
The tiers in Gen V are going to change quite a bit from Gen IV. I have no idea why you'd think they wouldn't.
What about Mischevious Heart making a lot of pokemon better?
What about Encourage making Nidoking and other pokemon better?
What about Evolution Stone making NFEs better?
What about a bunch of the stuff in Gen V making a bunch of the Gen IV OUs a lot worse, either by countering them or being better at the same functions?
What about Ditto going from NU to arguably Uber?
The tiers in Gen V are going to change quite a bit from Gen IV. I have no idea why you'd think they wouldn't.
Circa
Smash Champion
Even if you played in the WiFi tier you would have quite a few significant changes. Less than Dream World obviously, but still quite a few.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
i meant that OU is going to include all of gen 4 OU and then add gen 5 OU pokes
i also discounted dream world abilities because apparently, they're not 100% known yet
the only pokes i've seen using evolution stone are porygon2, chansey, and dusclops
but really, it will be different but the pokes used aren't going to be that much different outside of the new stuff
i also discounted dream world abilities because apparently, they're not 100% known yet
the only pokes i've seen using evolution stone are porygon2, chansey, and dusclops
but really, it will be different but the pokes used aren't going to be that much different outside of the new stuff
What about Rotom-H, Rotom-S, or Rotom-F?
What about Weavile, or anything else weak to priority fighting moves?
What about Smeargle?
What about Infernape, who is now completely outclassed by a lot of things?
What about Ninjask, who is now completely outclassed by Blaziken?
What about Flygon, who is going to be outclassed by any other Dragon except Altaria and Crimgan? For that matter, what about Dragonite, who barely outclasses Flygon?
What about Dusknoir, who is completely outclassed by Burungeru?
What about anything that gets OHKO'd by Shandera Overheat and isn't good enough to be OU regardless?
What about Weavile, or anything else weak to priority fighting moves?
What about Smeargle?
What about Infernape, who is now completely outclassed by a lot of things?
What about Ninjask, who is now completely outclassed by Blaziken?
What about Flygon, who is going to be outclassed by any other Dragon except Altaria and Crimgan? For that matter, what about Dragonite, who barely outclasses Flygon?
What about Dusknoir, who is completely outclassed by Burungeru?
What about anything that gets OHKO'd by Shandera Overheat and isn't good enough to be OU regardless?
ss118
Smash Master
Actually, Ninjask lures in Skarmory like the plague and knocks it down to 8 HP with Life Gambit. Blaziken just scares it away.
=3
Though if this does get popular, then Skarmory users will just Roost and negate the majority of the damage. And even then, the Ninjask player may adapt and use Baton Pass on such an occasion.
I really don't think many of those are "completely" outclasses, but I am sure you weren't "completely" meaning as much. ; )
=3
Though if this does get popular, then Skarmory users will just Roost and negate the majority of the damage. And even then, the Ninjask player may adapt and use Baton Pass on such an occasion.
I really don't think many of those are "completely" outclasses, but I am sure you weren't "completely" meaning as much. ; )