Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[kirbyraeg]

Sub+3 attacks Ho-oh. It can run another attack over Roost since it will basically use Sub while forcing switches. Yes Wobb can come in on a lot of stuff, but it will not like eating two consecutive Sacred Fires when ho-oh puts up a sub to hide behind, shielding it from Counter or giving it a free turn to avoid custap-bond. Kyogre also really hates LO Brave Bird, and as long as you give him spin support regeneration will take care of his recoil, as he will inevitably be forced out by something faster.

Even considering something dumb like 252/252 Def Bold kyogre, ho-oh can still 2hko it. LO Brave Bird KO's no-def no-hp kyogre if SR is up, which spells a similar fate for Manaphy and other waters that would try to beat him. Even Garchomp faces a likely KO from Brave Bird with sr+1 layer of spikes, and he has a bit of wiggle room with his EVs, as what's really important is just maxing attack and deciding what you want to outspeed.

Ho-oh @ Life Orb
252 Atk/whatever
Adamant/regen

Sacred Fire
Brave Bird
Substitute
earthquake

 

[Kofu]

They both have the same speed stat, but a lot of Ho-Oh forgo running speed in favor of HP and attack (which is stupid but running Ho-Oh is stupid anyway). Kyogres, however, are almost always Timid and are either Scarfed or Specs'd.

| Kyogre     | Item         | Choice Scarf     |    32.8 |
| Kyogre     | Nature       | Timid            |    43.4 |
| Kyogre     | Speed EV     | Max              |    54.4 |

| Ho-oh      | Item         | Other (4)        | <   9.2 |
| Ho-oh      | Nature       | Adamant          |    79.9 |
| Ho-oh      | Nature       | Jolly            |    11.2 |
| Ho-oh      | Speed EV     | Very Low (<50)   |    57.8 |
| Ho-oh      | Speed EV     | Max              |    25.7 |
| Ho-oh      | Speed EV     | None             |    10.6 |

And I was joking about Wobbuffet having Drizzle and base 150 SpA with water STAB obviously, but Wobbuffet can still be a good switch-in to Ho-Oh. If he catches them on something like Roost or Substitute, he can Encore, put up a Safeguard, and switch out to just about anything. If he catches them on an attacking move, he can Encore and switch to Dialga or Kyogre. Wobbuffet is good against pretty much everything in Ubers except Darkrai and physical Giratina/-O.

I knew you were joking about Wobbuffet's attributes, I just wasn't sure if you were joking about it being a problem for Regeneration Ho-oh.

And how would Wobbuffet Encore Ho-oh when it's hopelessly outsped? Scarf? lol, I guess it's a possibility.

 

[Gates]

Here's the problem with running Life Orb on Ho-Oh without Roost.

Let's assume you're able to bring him in on an attack he's immune to, like Earthquake. Let's also assume that Stealth Rocks are up on your side since that's the whole point of running Regeneration in the first place. Finally, let's assume you can get a sub up as well.

You are now able to attack 3 times AT MOST, and given how many Ubers resist both fire and ground, it's more likely 2.

Your sub is probably broken and you can now be revenge killed by Scizor, Giratina, Deoxys, Rayquaza, Arceus, and scarfed pokemon.Wasn't Life Orb such a big help?

I think that either you forgot that Ho-Oh is 4*weak to Stealth Rock, forgot that Substitute is not actually a recovery move, or forgot that Regeneration doesn't heal you until you switch.

All Regeneration does on Ho-Oh is reduce the Stealth Rock damage he takes from 50% to 20%. Admittedly this does make him a lot better, but he's still hopelessly outclassed by the rest of the Uber metagame. Rayquaza has the same speed, better Atk, better SpA, better typing, better movepool, better STABs, boosting moves, priority moves, and it won the nobel prize in physics for its dissertation on climate patterns and how to **** with them.

Is Regeneration better than Pressure? Of course. Pressure is ****ing useless outside of stall wars, which Ho-Oh is rarely in due to his vulnerability to phazing and low defense (although that might change).

Does this make Ho-Oh the big new threat in Ubers for Gen V? lol no. The biggest threats to Gen V Ubers pokemon are actually all those ridiculously good bugs in OU, as well as the "Musketeer" legendaries (Terakion, Cobalon, Paul, and Ringo), and possibly Zoroark. Heck, you wanna talk about powerful attackers with terrible typing? Ulgamoth is going to be even better in Ubers than he is in OU because of his speed boosting moves, STAB bug attacks, and his abilite which raises the power of bug moves when his HP is low (and it almost always is).

If any of you guys actually played Ubers you might know this.

 

[kirbyraeg]

My idea is more that Regeneration allows more offensive play with him as long as sr is NOT up on your side of the field, which would obviously take a lot of team support, but is certainly not unmanageable. Roost prevents him from dealing with specific targets by not running Earthquake or Brave Bird for coverage.

Ho-oh can 2hko anything in the Ubers metagame provided that he can secure himself a free turn to attack appropriately by using Substitute. Regeneration recovers LO+Substitute damage, and is not meant to help with his x4 weakness to SR. All of this works only if you can spin Rocks away or keep them from going up in the first place, which makes it an arguably flawed set though not necessarily without merit. You would play it like you would play a Choiced ho-oh, running in and hitting a target, then switching out after your sub is broken.

And yeah, you know I like talking out of my ***, ESPECIALLY when ubers is concerned.

 

[Kofu]

I was just asking, I wasn't trying to create such detailed responses lol.

But no, I don't really play Ubers. It does look fun, though.

 

[Gates]

My idea is more that Regeneration allows more offensive play with him as long as sr is NOT up on your side of the field, which would obviously take a lot of team support, but is certainly not unmanageable.

You realize the team you'd have to run in order to accomplish this would be like:

Mischevious Heart Taunt Lead
Espeon
Starmie
Forretress
A Groudon counter (will probably also need to be a Kyogre counter)
and Ho-Oh

Admittedly, I am exaggerating a little. You could run Rapid Spin Doryuzu over Forry and do fine.

But seriously, keeping rocks off the field in any format is hard, and it's especially difficult in Ubers where there's 1 viable spinner, and even that one can be countered by anything that has a special fire attack stronger than Ember, or a water or electric attack stronger than Bubblebeam and Charge Beam.

You could run Ho-Oh as a lead to sweep stuff, but then you'll probably be taunted into not using Substitute or Roost and then revenge killed ASAP.

Roost prevents him from dealing with specific targets by not running Earthquake or Brave Bird for coverage.

No, SUBSTITUTE prevents him from dealing with these things.

Roost is what keeps Life Orb Ho-Oh alive and able to sweep. Substitute just buys it extra time against a few things and prevents it from being hit by status. If a Ho-Oh is using substitite and Roost, most people will usually just say "ok, I'll just send in some death fodder to break the sub and have him take a bunch of recoil damage from Brave Bird and Life Orb, then next turn I'll bring out my Kyogre".

Ho-oh can 2hko anything in the Ubers metagame provided that he can secure himself a free turn to attack appropriately by using Substitute.

You're absolutely right, no other pokemon in Ubers can do this, except for Darkrai, Mewtwo, Garchomp, Dialga, Groudon, Palkia, Lati@s, Shaymin, Kyogre, Deoxys, Giratina-O, Manaphy (although she doesn't really need it), and Salamence.

So...basically that sentence applies to pretty much everything in the Uber metagame except Deoxys-D, Lugia, and Wobbuffet.

Hmm...

You would play it like you would play a Choiced ho-oh

So not at all then.
ZING.

But seriously, Choiced Ho-Oh is about as useful as Choiced Wobbuffet.

And yeah, you know I like talking out of my ***, ESPECIALLY when ubers is concerned.

I read this as "Gates, challenge me to an Ubers match so that I can be put in my place." Well lucky for you I'm busy for the next 3 days so I don't have time to build a team. But someday...

But no, I don't really play Ubers. It does look fun, though.

It is fun. Everyone should play it. I'd create a tourney for it if I didn't know that everyone would just flake out.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I guess I gotta respond to this long post one step at a time :D

You realize the team you'd have to run in order to accomplish this would be like:

Mischevious Heart Taunt Lead
Espeon
Starmie
Forretress
A Groudon counter (will probably also need to be a Kyogre counter)
and Ho-Oh

Admittedly, I am exaggerating a little. You could run Rapid Spin Doryuzu over Forry and do fine.

But seriously, keeping rocks off the field in any format is hard, and it's especially difficult in Ubers where there's 1 viable spinner, and even that one can be countered by anything that has a special fire attack stronger than Ember, or a water or electric attack stronger than Bubblebeam and Charge Beam.

You could run Ho-Oh as a lead to sweep stuff, but then you'll probably be taunted into not using Substitute or Roost and then revenge killed ASAP

Yeah, it's very hard to do it right. I don't know what kind of team structure could actually abuse this. Using it as a lead would be a big no-no, it wouldn't really be able to take hits from things commonly used as leads, and if it winds up statused it's basically useless...

No, SUBSTITUTE prevents him from dealing with these things.

Roost is what keeps Life Orb Ho-Oh alive and able to sweep. Substitute just buys it extra time against a few things and prevents it from being hit by status. If a Ho-Oh is using substitite and Roost, most people will usually just say "ok, I'll just send in some death fodder to break the sub and have him take a bunch of recoil damage from Brave Bird and Life Orb, then next turn I'll bring out my Kyogre".

Forcing death fodder is arguably a good thing, even though it will give Kyogre a nice switch in after they sacrifice something. Perhaps pairing this with Wish Latias would help?

You're absolutely right, no other pokemon in Ubers can do this, except for Darkrai, Mewtwo, Garchomp, Dialga, Groudon, Palkia, Lati@s, Shaymin, Kyogre, Deoxys, Giratina-O, Manaphy (although she doesn't really need it), and Salamence.

So...basically that sentence applies to pretty much everything in the Uber metagame except Deoxys-D, Lugia, and Wobbuffet.

Hmm...

I tried to think of something with Ho-oh because his new ability made things more interesting for him. A lot of those things can be selectively beaten by ho-oh, and maybe this would better function as a lure?

So not at all then.
ZING.

But seriously, Choiced Ho-Oh is about as useful as Choiced Wobbuffet.

mehhhh

I read this as "Gates, challenge me to an Ubers match so that I can be put in my place." Well lucky for you I'm busy for the next 3 days so I don't have time to build a team. But someday...

I think a very long time ago I posted the worst Ubers stall team ever because I wanted to prove that gravity would work on a stall team (which it didn't). I'm not joking when I say that I don't know anything about Ubers.

It is fun. Everyone should play it. I'd create a tourney for it if I didn't know that everyone would just flake out.

Yeah, everybody would flake. :/

 

[Zook]

I've been wondering if using a Roserade with Technician and a base 60 power HP Fire would be any better than a full IV'd Roserade.

Roserade (30 SpAtk IVs, 252 SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 90) vs Nattorei (252 Hp/72 SpDef EVs, Careful Nature) = 81.8% - 96.6%

Roserade (Full IVs & SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 60) vs Nattorei (252 Hp/72 SpDef EVs, Careful Nature) = 63.6% - 76.1%

Alright, so Technician Roserade will almost OHKO Nattorei without any boosts or held items, while a full IV'd Roserade will deal roughly 70%. Both will always 2HKO Nattorei.

Roserade (30 SpAtk IVs, 252 SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 90) vs Nattorei (252 Hp/72 SpDef EVs, Impish Nature) = 89.8% - 105.7%

Roserade (Full IVs & SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 60) vs Nattorei (252 Hp/72 SpDef EVs, Impish Nature) = 70.5% - 83%

If this Nattorei isn't packing a +SpDef Nature and 72 SpDef EVs, Technician Roserade will occasionally OHKO him. Full IV'd still only 2HKOs.

Roserade (30 SpAtk IVs, 252 SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 90) vs Metagross (252 Hp/0 SpDef EVs, Neutral Nature) = 57.1% - 67.6%

Roserade (Full IVs & SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 60) vs Metagross (252 Hp/0 SpDef EVs, Neutral Nature) = 45.1% - 53.3%

Technician will always 2HKO a Metagross with Full HP EVs and 0 SpDef EV/not +SpDef nature, whilst Full IV'd, once again, has a chance of not 2HKOing.

Roserade (30 SpAtk IVs, 252 SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 90) vs Skarmory (252 Hp/164 SpDef EVs, Neutral Nature) = 62.3% - 73.7%

Roserade (Full IVs & SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 60) vs Skarmory (252 Hp/164 SpDef EVs, Neutral Nature) = 48.5% - 57.5%

Roserade (30 SpAtk IVs, 252 SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 90) vs Skarmory (252 Hp/164 SpDef EVs, Careful Nature) = 56.9% - 67.1%

Roserade (Full IVs & SpAtk EVs, Timid Nature) Hidden Power [Fire] (Base 60) vs Skarmory (252 Hp/164 SpDef EVs, Careful Nature) = 44.3% - 52.7%

Again, we have an always 2HKO and an occasional 2HKO.

HP [Fire] base 60 Roserade hits Steels harder than a fully IV'd one.

 

[kirbyraeg]

That's obvious that a technician-boosted Hidden Power hits harder than a normal one, but those are notable KO's.

Arguably that's a better set than the standard.

Roserade @ Life Orb
252 SpAtk/252 Spe/4 SpDef
Timid / Technician

Giga Drain/Razor Leaf
HP Fire [60]
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore / Worry Seed

Maybe you could get away with a bit of bulk here by taking away from Speed?

 

[Zook]

I'm really wishing that the didn't boost Giga Drain's power, so we could get Base 90 Giga Drains from Technician. :C

 

[kirbyraeg]

Ah Giga Drain got boosted??? D:

I didn't know that, although it makes sense

Razor leaf still gets boosted though, having a high-crit move like that is always fun.

edit: wait razor leaf is physical lol...ffffffffff MAGICAL LEAF

 

[Wave⁂]

Grass Knot might be better. Also Toxic Spikes. Or even Weather Ball if you have weather.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Idk, base 90 that always hits is kind of tempting. It does quite a bit to Garchomp and Gliscor at least, while also always hitting dumb things like Vaporeon even harder than Energy Ball/Grass Knot.

 

[Wave⁂]

Isn't Grass Knot base 60 against Vaporeon?

Probably better against stuff like Azelf. If people still use Azelf.

 

[Hobobloke]

I've only seen him as the rare lead from what i assume were people who just come from 4th gen. I used him for a bit as a nasty plot sweeper and he still did quite well, that being said I wouldn't factor him in to much theorymon.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Isn't Grass Knot base 60 against Vaporeon?

Probably better against stuff like Azelf. If people still use Azelf.

Yeah, it is, so in that particular case I guess there's no difference...there's a few big things that it does hit better than Grass Knot does:
Manaphy
Garchomp
Gligar/Gliscor (equal bp on gliscor, higher vs gligar, why does gligar weigh more...)
Darkrai
Random other assorted things in the BP 40 and BP 80 groups

idk, I just like the thought of always hitting Garchomp, it's so cool.

 

[Gates]

Darkrai is banned.

Also, ggs earlier Hobloke. My team can't deal with Baloon Doryuzuu lol. Maybe if Garchomp got a good fighting attack.

Were you running Jolly? For some reason I was under the impression that Jolly Scarfchomp outspeeds Doryuzuu.

 

[kirbyraeg]

Adamant dorry hits like 550. or around that.

and Darkrai isn't on smogon's banlist yet...I don't think it is yet at least. It should be, and it will probably wind up there quickly, but for the time being it isn't. XD

 

[Kofu]

You need a Base Speed Stat of at least 135 to outspeed Max Speed Jolly Doryuuzu in the Sand with a Scarf. (Base 134 ties) With Adamant, you need at least 118.

Doubling 88 Speed is really, really troll-ish.

 

[Gates]

Ah, ok, thanks for that Kofu.

Dorry is such a ***** to deal with.

 

[Circa]

Just use Scarf Deoxys or something. Deo-A works too, but it seems like normal Deoxys isn't up on the chopping block quite like Deo-A is, so you can probably get away with using it for longer.

I'd say to just use Scarf Deo-S, but its Superpower can't completely OHKO. It deals like a 97% minimum or something.

But yeah, Doryuuzu is ****ing terrible to deal with.

 

[Gates]

Deoxys is banned.

Deoxys-S and D are just going through a trial period right now where it's legal. They'll re-ban it when they run out of pot to smoke.

I hope next gen they make a base 135 speed fire/ground type with mach punch.

That's right, I hate Gen V so much I'm thinking about Gen VI.

 

[Circa]

Deoxys is banned.

Deoxys-S and D are just going through a trial period right now where it's legal. They'll re-ban it when they run out of pot to smoke.

I hope next gen they make a base 135 speed fire/ground type with mach punch.

That's right, I hate Gen V so much I'm thinking about Gen VI.

What the **** do they even have extremely valid grounds to ban any of these guys? I mean I know Deoxys and Deoxys-A have ******** offensive and speed stats and a good movepool to back it up (as well as the strongest priority move in the game), but it's not like they're not beatable or anything. I guess maybe it's just because I've played Gen IV Ubers and never found them to be huge threats that they don't worry me at all, but they seriously just don't worry me at all. I see them and I'm just like "Oh yeah I can just bring in my *insert guy with priority that I probably already have because of Doryuuzu here* or fast-ish Scarfer that I ALSO probably have because almost everyone has one anyway and beat its face in."

Or maybe I just didn't face anyone who could actually use them. Who knows.

And I'm actually quite there with you. I'm ready for Gen VI to start and give us more ******** things; that I hopefully manage to like this time.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Deoxys is banned.

Deoxys-S and D are just going through a trial period right now where it's legal. They'll re-ban it when they run out of pot to smoke.

I hope next gen they make a base 135 speed fire/ground type with mach punch.

That's right, I hate Gen V so much I'm thinking about Gen VI.

Something along the lines of.

Dragon / Fighting
110 / 128 / 92 / 60 / 70 / 135
Technician / Mold Breaker

Mach Punch / Swords Dance / Dragon Claw / Extremespeed

Sounds like something that could actually get rid of Doryuuzu. It's not even funny how stupid that thing is.

 

[Moozle]

I have Roobushin to take care of Dory, but then they switch in Shandera and Overheat/Fire Blast and I rage. I really really wish magnezone had focus blast, because then he could take care of Dory pretty well (running Sub/Thunderbolt/HP Ice/Focus Blast). Speaking of Magnezone, it sucks having to chose between HP Ice and HP Fire so bad, but since I run a substitute set i've taken care of so many dragons by having them switch in when im behind a sub.

 

[Kofu]

Deoxys is banned.

Deoxys-S and D are just going through a trial period right now where it's legal. They'll re-ban it when they run out of pot to smoke.

I hope next gen they make a base 135 speed fire/ground type with mach punch.

That's right, I hate Gen V so much I'm thinking about Gen VI.

Doryuuzu isn't all that bad to deal with IMO.

The Evolution Stone allows for some incredibly bulky Pokémon that can at least cripple Doryuuzu. Stuff like Weezing, Skarmory, and Bronzong can all do the same without much trouble. While its Defensive typing is impressive, it has nohwere NEAR the bulk of Garchomp (110/60/65 to 108/95/85), nor does it have the same unrivaled coverage with just two moves that Garchomp has. Plus, if it wants to outspeed everything good in Sandstorm, it's gotta sacrifice a good chunk of its power. Similarly, losing out on Life Orb in order to defend itself from Earthquake cuts into its power. Plus it NEEDS Sandstorm to really be a threat (I suppose Scarf Doryuuzu could do okay but eh). Being weak to two main forms of priority doesn't help it much, either.

I dunno, I just haven't found it all that bad.

 

[PowerBomb]

Its movepool is pretty meh as well.

Bronzong/Skarmory can get rid of it, while Bronzong can put it to sleep or Trick Room it. Same with Claydol, and Max/Max Claydol doesn't die to X-Scissor.

 

[Gates]

I mean I know Deoxys and Deoxys-A have ******** offensive and speed stats and a good movepool to back it up (as well as the strongest priority move in the game), but it's not like they're not beatable or anything.

Well of course those two are beatable, they're made of cardboard (Well, Deoxys is made of cardboard, Deoxys-A is more like tissue paper). If Deoxys-S and D can get set up, they can stall very well (though Deoxys-S needs to run Cosmic Power for this to protect himself). Taunt/Cosmic Power/Recover/Substitute on Deoxys-S and Taunt/Agility/Recover/Substitute on Deoxys-D can be really hard to crack for most pokemon in OU, and it's only now that we have priority Taunt users that we can even talk about them being OU instead of Uber.

I guess maybe it's just because I've played Gen IV Ubers and never found them to be huge threats that they don't worry me at all, but they seriously just don't worry me at all.

How good a pokemon is in the tier above it doesn't affect whether or not it's banned in its current tier. Look at Gen IV Raikou. In OU, Raikou is a joke. There's no reason to use it over Jolteon at all. But he was still banned from UU because once he got Aura Sphere to beat Registeel, he no longer had any counters. The same is/was true for Deoxys. Yes, you can kill the attacking Deoxys with priority and scarf; Yes, you can outstall Deoxys-D; No, Deoxys-D isn't good for much besides being a suicide lead; And yes, they all have a million counters in Ubers (especially Darkrai). That doesn't mean that they're not, ultimately, Uber.

I see them and I'm just like "Oh yeah I can just bring in my *insert guy with priority that I probably already have because of Doryuuzu here* or fast-ish Scarfer that I ALSO probably have because almost everyone has one anyway and beat its face in."

You can only do that to the offensive Deoxys.

Or maybe I just didn't face anyone who could actually use them. Who knows.

Yeah, this is probably it. Most of the people on PO are scrubs and just throw Deoxys in their team without thinking because of their insane stats.

And I'm actually quite there with you. I'm ready for Gen VI to start and give us more ******** things; that I hopefully manage to like this time.

I don't want more new things, I want less.

I HATE CHANGE.

Doryuuzu isn't all that bad to deal with IMO.

The Evolution Stone allows for some incredibly bulky Pokémon that can at least cripple Doryuuzu. Stuff like Weezing, Skarmory, and Bronzong can all do the same without much trouble. While its Defensive typing is impressive, it has nohwere NEAR the bulk of Garchomp (110/60/65 to 108/95/85), nor does it have the same unrivaled coverage with just two moves that Garchomp has. Plus, if it wants to outspeed everything good in Sandstorm, it's gotta sacrifice a good chunk of its power. Similarly, losing out on Life Orb in order to defend itself from Earthquake cuts into its power. Plus it NEEDS Sandstorm to really be a threat (I suppose Scarf Doryuuzu could do okay but eh). Being weak to two main forms of priority doesn't help it much, either.

I dunno, I just haven't found it all that bad.

You probably aren't playing stall.

When your stall core takes up several slots and the remaining slot on your team have to be revenge killers and pokemon to cover the holes in your core, you really can't cover everything. Yes, it's easy to Mach Punch, but only so many pokemon learn that move, and even then not all of them can OHKO.

And your point about its base stats compared to Garchomp doesn't mean much since it doesn't matter how bulky or not bulky he is due to the fact that he has twice Garchomp's speed.

 

[Kofu]

Doryuuzu would certainly pose a threat to stall. But no, I'm not playing it.

 

[Circa]

How good a pokemon is in the tier above it doesn't affect whether or not it's banned in its current tier. Look at Gen IV Raikou. In OU, Raikou is a joke. There's no reason to use it over Jolteon at all. But he was still banned from UU because once he got Aura Sphere to beat Registeel, he no longer had any counters. The same is/was true for Deoxys. Yes, you can kill the attacking Deoxys with priority and scarf; Yes, you can outstall Deoxys-D; No, Deoxys-D isn't good for much besides being a suicide lead; And yes, they all have a million counters in Ubers (especially Darkrai). That doesn't mean that they're not, ultimately, Uber.

Oh no, I was just saying that because I'm used to seeing them and wasn't ever really afraid of them in Ubers, I'm not really afraid of them in OU either. That's all. Just a mindset thing I guess. I get how the whole 'how good a Pokemon is in the tier above it' thing works, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm not afraid of them and tend to handle them with relative ease even in the current OU. It may have something to do with my playstyle too though. That's probably it. Well, mixed with that the people on PO suck of course.

You can only do that to the offensive Deoxys.

That's why I included the part about scarfers. Scarfers usually do have the power to stop normal Deoxys, even with its added bulk.

Yeah, this is probably it. Most of the people on PO are scrubs and just throw Deoxys in their team without thinking because of their insane stats.

Tru dat.

I don't want more new things, I want less.

I HATE CHANGE.

I love change, so long as it's good. This gen doesn't feel like good change to me.

Still waiting for tierrsssss so I can play a metagame that doesn't suckkkk to meeee.

 

[UltiMario]

Well, Deo-A may be banned but Deo-N is still around.

Also I'd like to mention that if Deo-D is broken, then Porygon 2 will be going to Ubers as well, because essentially its a Bulkier Deo-D with better typing that is better at actually killing something at the expense of setting up Hazards.

Yeah. Did I forget to mention Deo-D sucks?

 

[Gates]

Normal Deoxys is banned too.

 

[Kofu]

Well, Deo-A may be banned but Deo-N is still around.

Also I'd like to mention that if Deo-D is broken, then Porygon 2 will be going to Ubers as well, because essentially its a Bulkier Deo-D with better typing that is better at actually killing something at the expense of setting up Hazards.

Yeah. Did I forget to mention Deo-D sucks?

Porygon2's support movepool is horribly outclassed by Deoxys-D, and it has no way of boosting its Defenses. The extra Speed that comes with Deoxys-D is nice as well. It may not be able to attack, but it's certainly a defensive threat. Deoxys-D also gets Leftovers Recovery alongside its impressive bulk, something that Porygon2 would kill for.

You can't just write off Porygon2 as being a better Deoxys-D, because it isn't.

 

[Hobobloke]

Deoxys-D just yells at me to set up on him. He is really underwhelming and Deoxys may do a few things better but overall I'd always take a Porygon2 over him.

 

[UltiMario]

Normal Deoxys is banned too.

Not on /tr/ocketry, the only place I can go to because I'm banned on the Beta Server lol

Porygon2's support movepool is horribly outclassed by Deoxys-D, and it has no way of boosting its Defenses. The extra Speed that comes with Deoxys-D is nice as well. It may not be able to attack, but it's certainly a defensive threat. Deoxys-D also gets Leftovers Recovery alongside its impressive bulk, something that Porygon2 would kill for.

You can't just write off Porygon2 as being a better Deoxys-D, because it isn't.

Porygon 2 has:
-The equivalent of 85/160/170 Defenses and no leftovers, but has recover to keep it plenty healthy.
-Trace, which is an all-around amazing utility ability.
-Discharge for Para.
-Is a utility in countering things like Mence, Gyara, Heatran, Garchomp (I think SD YacheChomp might get him though... unless traced Sand Veil kicks in), Lati@s, Shandera(assumig you can get out), and more.
-Has Magic Coat

Deo-D has:
-Entry Hazards
-Taunt (inferior to Magic Coat)
-Leftovers recovery
-Stat-up moves
-Counters.... Fighting types?
-Has potential to attack physically or specially

Both have:
-Access to Boltbeam
-Trick Room
-Considerable Bulk to be used for walling.


I guess Deo-D is okay if you want something that has a good chance of setting up Three layers of Spikes or something, but with stuff like Shandera running around now, I can see it getting pretty hard for Deo-D to stay alive (... Agility Deo-D with Shadow Ball maybe? lol). Porygon 2 is just plain better because it has a really strong Niche that nobody could try to do better, and it's just plain good as is. Deo-D has issues even competing with the new Metagame at all. Also see usage stats. P2 is like OU and Deo-D is in the bottom depths of the earth.

 

[Vlade]

What should I use in a rain team to beat Nattorei? ;p

 

[Hobobloke]

So what do you guys think? Should previewing your opponents team before the battle wifi style be the default option?

I personally detest the idea, it in my opinon lessens the skill in a battle as scouting teams mid-match and making educated guesses based on reasoning and experience will be gone, it'll simply be a game of guesswork with "Will they switch their X in to my Y".

It also really limits creativity, gimmicky things will be punished as it won't be a suprise when a normally unique pokemon is brought in.

 

[Wave⁂]

I don't like it either, but I think the benefits outweigh the possible costs. Know your opponent has a Magic Mirror? Don't use Stealth Rocks, and hit Espeon on the switch-in with any physical move and probably KO it. Know your opponent has a Ditto? Don't Dragon dance 6 times. Know your opponent has a Doryuuzu? For the love of god, don't sacrifice your Roopushin.

 

[kirbyraeg]

What should I use in a rain team to beat Nattorei? ;p

A fighting move. Sadly there aren't a lot to choose from on rain sweepers, maybe superpower on Armaldo or Focus Blast on Golduck...

Or you could still run Shandera, as even in rain with no spatk investment flamethrower will still 2hko it. Bulky trapper with lefties might work nicely.

And even though knowing the other person's team is abusable, I still don't like it.

 

[ss118]

For now I prefer previewable teams.