Into The New World :: Generation V Competitive Metagame Discussion

[Pluvia]

What if you mispredict with a Magic Coat and eat an attack?

You're not likely to get lucky with enough Protects.

It's just not quite as foolproof as you'd like to think.

I know it's not fool proof but if you're afraid of mispredicting you can just switch into something with a Lum or Roo with Guts.

Probo fails against other stalls (except Eru) but completely walls brute force attackers.

 

[mood4food77]

I don't know what I'm more angry at - the fact that you thought Kyurem's laughable physical movepool warranted the use of Claw Sharpen, the fact that the accuracy boost of Claw Sharpen on its own was enough to use without physical attacks, or the fact that you forgot that it also gives Draco Meteor 99 accuracy.

i meant a set of outrage/blizzard/focus blast/claw sharpen could be logical on him because of claw sharpen accuracy increase

 

[xxmoosexx]

Roopushin 252 hp 252 atk 6 wherever...

-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Thunderpunch(If he learns it, I dont know if he does)
-Filler

Thoughts? I mean if i see a roopushin im definitely going to switch and a STAB Focus Punch from 252 atk from a 140 atk stat....Something is gonna hurt. I could care less if you switched in Skarmory.

 

[Wave⁂]

Needs more Payback.

And Drain Punch / Mach Punch.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I run a similar set with zuruzukin. He has better all-around bulk (especially with intimidate), stab on fighting AND dark, and a lot of nice options for the 4th move.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Roopushin 252 hp 252 atk 6 wherever...

-Substitute
-Focus Punch
-Thunderpunch(If he learns it, I dont know if he does)
-Filler

Thoughts? I mean if i see a roopushin im definitely going to switch and a STAB Focus Punch from 252 atk from a 140 atk stat....Something is gonna hurt. I could care less if you switched in Skarmory.

If you're running that kind of set then you might want to try running Zuruzukin as Kirbyraeg suggested. Zuruzukin has better abilities (ShedRest takes care of the benefits from Guts), better typing, and much better bulk. Zuruzkin also has the aforementioned ShedRest strategy which removes status and autorecovery, allowing more room for Drain Punch / Crunch (Payback). Using Bulk Up or Dragon Dance is also great for Zuruzukin.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Eh. Don't know who Zuruzukin is. Im just running off what I remember from my previous studies. I was really throwing things out there about what you guys thought about future sets. I basically see Roopushin as a machamp.

I'd love to see
-Drain punch
-Focus Punch
Substitute
-Payback/dark move

I know 4th gen real well. I haven't been able to play 5th gen because PO sucks.
I want shoddy to hurry up and get it already.

Does anyone think that Slowbro will hit OU with Regeneration as a wall?
Can someone post a picture of Zuruzukin for me?
I can identify it by sight.
I have to operate on a school issued laptop and Serebi/Smogon is blocked and i have no proxies that aren't blocked.

 

[kirbyraeg]

it's the ******** looking chicken thing.

also it isn't like roopushin can't do it, i just think it isn't as balanced defensively, so it might not get as many opportunities to get a substitute up

 

[xxmoosexx]

I'd rather use Roopushin than that disgusting pile of regurgitated, butt nacking, flipper hoppin, ******** chicken thing.

I literally laughed when I saw that thing.

But yea I remember it. At first I thought it was useless, and that thing just makes me laugh. How did Pokemon's pixel artists and designers come up with that thing...I mean seriously...most are based on ANIMALS. Now they've gotten into like the Robotic Space Bugs *stares at Genoseckt* and ******** chicken things *stares at Zuzurukin*.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I'd rather use Roopushin than that disgusting pile of regurgitated, butt nacking, flipper hoppin, ******** chicken thing.

I literally laughed when I saw that thing.

But yea I remember it. At first I thought it was useless, and that thing just makes me laugh. How did Pokemon's pixel artists and designers come up with that thing...I mean seriously...most are based on ANIMALS. Now they've gotten into like the Robotic Space Bugs *stares at Genoseckt* and ******** chicken things *stares at Zuzurukin*.

So you're discouraging yourself from using Zuruzukin because it looks like trash? (And Roopushin is much better?) To each his own, but I'll be the one laughing when my +6 Atk / Def Zurukin sweeps your team with unmanageable defenses, ShedRest, and Drain Punch / Crunch.

 

[Gates]

Blech, I still can't get the hang of Gen V OU. It's like Gen IV Ubers but without all the fun stuff.

So I made this Infernape set:

Ape of the North Star @ Choice Band
Iron Fist
Adamant
252 Atk/252 Spe/6 Def
- Mach Punch
- ThunderPunch
- Fire Punch
- U-Turn

And it still can't OHKO Doryuzuu. What a load of ****.

 

[kirbyraeg]

infernape wishes he were kenshiro.

or even jagi.

so i think specs zoroark could pair really well with that. give it a try gates just so i can say i had a good idea for once =D

 

[Gates]

How would Specs Zoroark pair well with it exactly? Other than having the same moveset.

Morevoer, how is Specs Zoruark better than anything else?

 

[kirbyraeg]

It can fake being an infernape. It's choiced, can run U-turn, and has STABs that hit common targets that would wall your Ape, like pringles/bulky psychics/etc. and would completely SMACK scarfed Shandera as it switches in. You'd u-turn the first time anyway, so vs. a lot of teams you would be able to scout their response quickly and defeat it the next time it comes in. The fact that it's similar in speed as well helps make the illusion more convincing.

 

[Gates]

OK, but why Specs specifically?

 

[Wave⁂]

Specs and Expert Belt would both accomplish your goal: make Infernape identical to Zoroak. Life Orb means your opponent see Life Orb recoil. Seeing Life Orb recoil on "Infernape" one second and not the next would give away your Zoroak.

 

[Gates]

What about Scarf? Base 105 scarfed pokemon are typically pretty cool guys.

 

[Wave⁂]

Oh, I see what you're asking. Well, I'm guessing because the extra power from Specs is more useful when you catch your opponent off guard. And since Zoroak and Infernape's base Speeds are pretty similar, it's easier to pretend to be an Infernape. Scarf might make you accidentally outspeed a Latias or something.

That's just my best guess, though. There's probably some OHKO that you can only get with Specs.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I haven't done calcs for it, but honestly the surprise value is what makes the +1 in spatk more important.

brb, doing calcs

edit: a few calcs

+1 dark pulse vs. 252 HP/40SpDef burungeru: 342 - 404 (84.65% - 100.00%)
+1 grass knot vs. 252 hp suicune: 274 - 324 (67.82% - 80.20%)
+1 dark pulse vs. 252 hp/176 spdef careful gyara: 142 - 168 (37.08% - 43.86%)
+1 dark pulse vs. 188 hp vaporeon: 195 - 229 (43.43% - 51.00%)
+1 dark pulse vs. 252 hp/136 spdef calm tentacruel: 129 - 153 (35.44% - 42.03%)
+1 HP Ice vs. 252 HP/252 spdef calm dragonite: 316 - 372 (82.72% - 97.38%)
+1 dark pulse/grass knot vs. 252 hp/252 spdef politoed: 135 - 159 (35.16% - 41.41%)

 

[PowerBomb]

Someone tell me how to make a useful stall team. Is Rain Stall viable? Might make a RestDration Vaporean.

 

[M.K]

I love my Hydration Lapras so much!

Lapras @ Leftovers
Modest // Hydration
252 Sp. Attack // 252 Speed / 6 Sp. Defense
-Dragon Dance
-Rest
-Waterfall
-Ice Shard

Alot of people don't realize my Lapras has Hydration, so they try to bring in something like Breloom to counter it. One guy Spore'd twice before realizing I was waking up at the end of every turn T_T Haha. But if you let this thing set up, it's really devestating!

(I run a Rain Dance team, so...yeah XD)

 

[kirbyraeg]

That looks really useful.

Only problem is a lot of things run mach punch...and even though lapras is bulky it isn't quite bulky enough to take out a lot of things that would slow him down. Ice shard also won't help against a lot of scarfers that would still beat him out after a DD.

Also i forgot zoroark has night burst instead of dark pulse, so he does a tiny bit more damage with his stab move.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I love my Hydration Lapras so much!

Lapras @ Leftovers
Modest // Hydration
252 Sp. Attack // 252 Speed / 6 Sp. Defense
-Dragon Dance
-Rest
-Waterfall
-Ice Shard

Alot of people don't realize my Lapras has Hydration, so they try to bring in something like Breloom to counter it. One guy Spore'd twice before realizing I was waking up at the end of every turn T_T Haha. But if you let this thing set up, it's really devestating!

(I run a Rain Dance team, so...yeah XD)

You run a Modest Lapras with max Sp. Atk. EV and Waterfall, Ice Shard, and Dragon Dance?

 

[M.K]

You run a Modest Lapras with max Sp. Atk. EV and Waterfall, Ice Shard, and Dragon Dance?

Oops! My bad XD

Switch Modest and Adamant, then put full EVs into Attack and not Sp. Attack. XD


Oh and this Lapras survives a Mach punch from Roopushin, I believe....

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Oops! My bad XD

Switch Modest and Adamant, then put full EVs into Attack and not Sp. Attack. XD


Oh and this Lapras survives a Mach punch from Roopushin, I believe....

I had a feeling that was just a mistake.

You'd probably have to be careful about Bulk Up Roopushin and Zuruzukin. Since you're not running Curse, if Roopushin can pull off +1 or +2 then Mach Punch might be a problem as he'd continue Bulking Up as you Rest off damage. But other than that Rain boosted Waterfall from +1 or +2 should do him in nicely. I'm assuming you packed a Burungeru on your team or something in case of that?

 

[M.K]

I had a feeling that was just a mistake.

You'd probably have to be careful about Bulk Up Roopushin and Zuruzukin. Since you're not running Curse, if Roopushin can pull off +1 or +2 then Mach Punch might be a problem as he'd continue Bulking Up as you Rest off damage. But other than that Rain boosted Waterfall from +1 or +2 should do him in nicely. I'm assuming you packed a Burungeru on your team or something in case of that?

I debated running Curse over Dragon Dance, cause I'm not certain that the Speed boost is worth it or not. It's worth it sometimes because I can Rest 2nd turn before someone KOs me, but other than that, I might consider Curse.
Whenever a Roopushin kills me, I just bring out my Zapdos. It scares them away most of the time, and if it doesn't, I Roar 'em out.

 

[Gates]

Also i forgot zoroark has night burst instead of dark pulse, so he does a tiny bit more damage with his stab move.

I like Dark Pulse more anyway because of Flinchhax.

I tried out the Infernape/Zoroark combo and it does work pretty decently. The only problem is that they're both really, really frail, so they get torn up pretty easily by just about anything.

Someone tell me how to make a useful stall team. Is Rain Stall viable? Might make a RestDration Vaporean.

I played someone by the name of Kevin Garrett last night (on PO /tr/ so idk if it was actually him) who ran a stall team something like this:

Stockpile Hippowdon
WoW Recover Burungeru
Softboiled Wish Blissey
Nattorei
Landlos (no idea what kind, didn't really see it at all)
Garchomp (I assume it was Scarfed)

He pretty much destroyed my [****ty] team with it, his prediction was really good compared to the average /tr/ scrub. The only thing I can think of this team being weak against is Baloon SD Doryuzu since he has a sandstorm starter and no priority users. Aside from that there aren't many weaknesses. Hail could also be a problem for this team since Abomasnow can hurt Burungeru and Blizzard can hurt everything else. If Burungeru dies, fighting types will be a problem too. Landlos' bulk is impressive, but it's not good enough to take repeated Ice Punches. Breloom is a problem since it can punch Blissey, Spore Nattorei, and Seed Bomb everything else. It's still a great team though and a lot more solid that it initially seems.

In terms of general stall advice, I can reasonably say these few tips:

• Find a good stall core. This can be based on resistances (FWG cores), stats (BlissKarm or Blissey and any defensive steel type), immunities (Blissey+Ghosts), or other synergy, such as with abilities, status effects, or speed. You can't build an effective stall team (or any effective team) around a bunch of pokemon that are good individually. Once you have a core in place, you can metagame the rest of your team around that core.
• Have lots of immunities. Ground immunity is especially important both because of opposing entry hazards that could damage your core and the increase in usage of Sandstorm teams in Gen V. Water immunity is also important in Gen V because of rain teams. If you're running Blissey, a fighting immunity is basically required. Steel types are good due to their immunity to all things poison, most notably Toxic Spikes. Electric immunity is very good to have because chances are something on your team will be a water or flying type. Fire immunity is nice but not necessary, mostly because all the pokemon who have fire immunity don't function very well defensively or have better abilities. For reference, the team I posted above has 7 immunities, and most successful Gen IV stall teams had around 6.
• Have lots of entry hazards. Do you like Skarmory, Forretress, Deoxys, Cloyster, Omastar, Qwlfish, Roserade, Pendra, and Nidoqueen? Well you should. All these pokemon have access to multiple entry hazards. In stall teams, entry hazards are going to be your best friend since your opponents are going to be switching so much to try and get out of the way of an unfavorable matchup. Stealth Rock is the best hazard by far, as it hits everything without Magic Guard. Toxic Spikes is probably the second most useful, as it hits all grounded non-steel, non-poison pokemon and severely limits what they can do and for how long. Spikes are very useful as well, since they can hit steel types for extra damage, which is very necessary since they'll only take about 6% damage from Stealth Rock and be immune to T. Spikes.
• Have lots of ways around entry hazards. Rapid Spin is the best since it clears your whole side of every entry hazard. Most teams have ghost types to block this, so if you are running a spinner you'll need to make sure it can handle all of them. Starmie is a good choice for this as it can hit almost every commonly used Ghost type for super effective damage without having to run Shadow Ball. Another way around Toxic Spikes is to run a poison type without flying or levitate. Grounded poison types absorb Toxic Spikes when they are sent in, meaning that they can get rid of an entry hazard without having to waste a turn spinning. Tentacruel is a good example of this, especially since he can also use Rapid Spin. Regeneration is a good way for a single pokemon to compensate for the loss of health from entry hazards. Mamanbou and Slowbro are both good examples of this, as they will take quite a bit of damage from spikes if they have to come in repeatedly. Generally though, when dealing with entry hazards you usually want to focus on helping your whole team, so this single-pokemon ability isn't that helpful. Similarly, Magic Guard is a good ability for avoiding entry hazards (and some status moves), but not only does it only benefit one pokemon but all the users are terrible. Clefable isn't bad, but it shares a type with Blissey who is far superior; Alakazam is about as durable as rice paper; Shinbora's defensive stats aren't that great overall and his typing isn't very good; Rankurusu is probably the best user of Magic Guard since he has good offensive and defensive stats and access to Trick Room to compensate for his atrociously low speed stat.
• Have lots of phazers. In stall, most of your damage comes from entry hazards, so you want to maximize your damage as much as possible by including good phazers. One of my personal favorites is Resttalk Roar Gyarados. Gyarados' typing is pretty good, leaving him with only 2 weaknesses that are both resisted by ground types. His ability (Intimidate, not Overconfident/Earthquake Spiral) also increases his physical bulk, which complements his good natural special bulk. In Gen V, you can replace Roar with Dragon Tail when you can and generally be ok. This helps against Soundproof pokemon and Dragons.
• Have something to absorb sleep. Sleep is a gay thing for any team to deal with, but in Stall it's even worse since you're effectively losing a really bulky pokemon that you need badly to one move. Having a sleep talker on your stall team will be good for absorbing sleep and also for tanking since most Sleep Talk sets are designed to be incredibly bulky.
• Know your metagame. This is probably the most important point of all. You could have the greatest stall team ever on paper, but if there is 1 pokemon or strategy that can counter it and that one pokemon or strategy is the most commonly used thing, your team is probably going to suck.

That's all the adivce I can think of right now. These are just general strategies because stall is, in the end, a metagame team. When you have an established metagame, stall can be really good. When you have an unknown metagame (like right now in BW), stall can have a bunch of random problems and just generally not be as good as it could be.

I debated running Curse over Dragon Dance, cause I'm not certain that the Speed boost is worth it or not. It's worth it sometimes because I can Rest 2nd turn before someone KOs me, but other than that, I might consider Curse.

You're using a priority move, you don't need the speed boost. If Lapras knew Aqua Jet this set would create itself.

 

[PowerBomb]

Gates, what about Mischievous Heart Sableye? I've seen T-Spikes and MH users used to a great degree.

 

[E123-omega]

Disregard this post

 

[Gates]

Gates, what about Mischievous Heart Sableye? I've seen T-Spikes and MH users used to a great degree.

Yeah, Mischevious Heart users are good enough to warrant mention in stall, but I didn't mention it because I forgot.

My favorite MH user is probably Erufuun since she has access to Worry Seed, an attack that's surprisingly amazing. All the pokemon who get it are useful though. It's such a great ability.

 

[kirbyraeg]

What good does worry seed do exactly...? (that something like u-turn doesn't do)

 

[xxmoosexx]

What does MH do?

 

[Wave⁂]

It's a game that's kind of like Pokemon, you're a hunter, and you complete quests by hunting down monsters.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

What does MH do?

Mischevious Heart

Non-attacking moves have a higher speed priority.

[color=#1c1c]Also known as Monster Hunter[/color]

 

[Gates]

What good does worry seed do exactly...? (that something like u-turn doesn't do)

It's good against other Mischevious Heart users for starters.

 

[mood4food77]

worry seed makes the opponents ability insomnia

it really screws over resttalkers

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Worry Seed is just really clutch and great at ruining any Pokemon with great abilities except those insta-uses such as Intimidate or Flash Fire / Volt Absorb / Water Absorb.

 

[Wave⁂]

I'd rather use Payback. 84.3% - 99.6% to 0 / 0 Shanderaa, OHKO with Stealth Rock, or some Spikes.

 

[kirbyraeg]

I like Dark Pulse more anyway because of Flinchhax.

I tried out the Infernape/Zoroark combo and it does work pretty decently. The only problem is that they're both really, really frail, so they get torn up pretty easily by just about anything.

I played someone by the name of Kevin Garrett last night (on PO /tr/ so idk if it was actually him) who ran a stall team something like this:

Stockpile Hippowdon
WoW Recover Burungeru
Softboiled Wish Blissey
Nattorei
BULK UP Landlos (no idea what kind, didn't really see it at all)
Garchomp (I assume it was Scarfed)

I just played him as well.

I gave up after i realized that my team had no way to muscle through bulk up landlos.

and yeah he is actually kevin garrett.

 

[xxmoosexx]

i really wish i could go on serebii to see what landlos was....

So those of you who played back when Garchomp was in OU what were the most effective ways of using him
That and does anyone think that any previously banned pokemon will come back to OU?