Infinites: Why, exactly, are they allowed?

[Perfect Hero]

Haha, this thread lasted this long.

So what's the main point of the guys who don't want infinites in Tournaments?

 

[Grunt]

and some charecters have a advantage.

OH MY GOD, ARE YOU SERIOUS?
that is
TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

Crewster and Kirby w/e, You're arguments are totally ridiculous. It's pretty obvious that you have never been to a tournament, because they aren't "abused to such a huge extent". beside, Fun is subjective; winning is not. thing are banned when they destroy the game, and so far, neither D3, OR ice Climbers are dominating the tournament scene.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Haha, this thread lasted this long.

So what's the main point of the guys who don't want infinites in Tournaments?

theyre a bunce of ******* that dont know how to space and they got grabbed

 

[JigglyZelda003]

theyre a bunce of ******* that dont know how to space and they got grabbed

now now hon no name calling lol. we all get grabbed at some point, just some of us know not to blindly run into a grab. and can i request this thread be closed? its starting to loop like a broken record....

 

[Dark Sonic]

now now hon no name calling lol. we all get grabbed at some point, just some of us know not to blindly run into a grab. and can i request this thread be closed? its starting to loop like a broken record....

No, you can really go through a whole match against Ice Climbers without being grabbed. They have terrible grab range.

 

[cutter]

No, you can really go through a whole match against Ice Climbers without being grabbed. They have terrible grab range.

That, and infinites were allowed in Melee.

Next.

 

[Veggi]

This don't get grabbed thing has opened up a new door for me. Instead of banning things that can be started with a grab, we shouldn't because that would be the wrong answer. It's been stated lots of times, so it would only make sense to do the opposite and start unbanning things. First off Eldin Bridge is a great stage, we should put that back in. Even though the whole match is based on player location and it destroys any sense of a skill gap. The better player just couldn't be grabbed, because it's possible not to be grabbed. Items are fair too, we should un-ban them. It's possible to go a whole match without being hit by an item. The better player obviously just wouldn't be hit by them. Mario players grab people maybe 30 times per match, but it doesn't matter because he can't do anything with his grabs, his grab range sucks too, it's no where near as useful as someone like Dedede.

Instead, we should ban people who only main one character. They chose the character, if they don't have skill with a character that can't be infinited, they shouldn't be allowed to play. Simple as that. Did you know infinites were allowed in Melee? They obviously have a whole lot in common right? In Melee to do an infinite all you had to do was down throw over and over and you could win, but it wasn't banned so it's fair.

That play to win thing you guys showed earlier was inspirational too. It totally made nerds sound really bad@$$. I took it even further than that though. I noticed that I play to get money, now when I lose I don't give them my money. Just don't give them your money right?

 

[CStrife187]

veggi, no offense, but you sound like a sucky scrub.

First of all, even on Eldin Bridge the better player wins most of the time. With items, it is this community's overwhelming preference for items-off play. Nobody's banning DK players, because DK players can still beat DDD players if the DK player is actually superior.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

No, you can really go through a whole match against Ice Climbers without being grabbed. They have terrible grab range.

i know, but i mean generally speaking no slip ups or your getting grabbed. lol

anyway who votes this thread dies now?

 

[Veggi]

veggi, no offense, but you sound like a sucky scrub.

First of all, even on Eldin Bridge the better player wins most of the time. With items, it is this community's overwhelming preference for items-off play. Nobody's banning DK players, because DK players can still beat DDD players if the DK player is actually superior.

For what reason do I sound like a scrub? Name-calling has no place in this. State some reasons.

So you agree that Eldin Bridge should be put back in?

Brawl competition doesn't need nonsense like this messing up results. The rules should be made so that it's as likely as possible that the best player will win. This is what I was getting at, the DK player would only win if he was leagues better than the Dedede player. That doesn't cut it, it should be as accurate as possible, that's why items and stages are cut. Techniques are no different.

 

[KillL0ck]

Someone like DDD can chaingrab 4-6 times depending on the stage(Don't hold me on this), would it be so wrong to Semi infinite grab a Ness or Lucas with Marth 4-6 times then throw them? Personally I'd call it legit, considering his grab sucks anyway.


/possible random 10x char

 

[CStrife187]

you sound like a scrub because instead of playing some matches to actually try to not get grabbed you come in here and whine about how impossible it is while people who spend they're time getting good at this game instead of whining about how unfair it is don't consider any grab infinite (aside from the grab-release on the mother kids) broken at all. Even the grab-release infinite on the mother kids is up for debate.

Apparently this next bit is a little-known fact in the brawl boards. "Nonsense like this" doesn't break the game at all, it just makes it better and deeper because the more nonsense people find the more ways around it the victims are going to find. As we go through the cycle of making and breaking various tactics the game gets deeper, and this depth is what gives competitive games longevity.

If everyone played brawl with the mindset you have of "Oh, that's unfair bullcrap and we should ban it" then Brawl wouldn't see any good players staying in the scene for more than a year or so because they'd get bored doing the same crap over and over again. When something is discovered that proves to be a powerful tool, you should never ever cry ban until this tool has proven to make the game virtually unwinnable without using said tool.

Until you realize why we adopt this mindset and choose to allow the game to grow based on how it was programmed (glitchy or not) instead of how you think it should be played you will sound like a scrub to people who've overcome that mental handicap. You also will have a hard time improving because instead of adapting to seemingly broken situations you will just cry foul and pretend like there should be a rule against the grab infinite that beat you when you could be working hard on making things like outspacing grabs and baiting grab attempts into new good habits.

You also sound like a scrub because instead of actually adressing any points made by the opposing arguing force you use sarcasm to set up exaggerated straw-man arguments to try and make yourself look correct without actually saying anything of any consequence.

For the record, I think that Bridge of Eldin, along with a few other prematurely banned stages should be put back in because they don't break the game (even with the DDD chaingrab) they just make it boring.

As to your DK vs DDD comment, check in the tournament vids section and you find a california tournament in which a DK player known as CBK came up against a good DDD player called Zelgadis. The first time he came up against Zel, CBK switched to falco because he thought he'd have an easier time winning, and he went 0-2 to get knocked into the loser's bracket. When they faced off again, CBK went DK knowing the infinite was in play and beat Zel.

good DKs can still beat DDDs if the DK player is better.

 

[turbogilman]

*drum roll*

JOHNS at this thread

 

[Perfect Hero]

you sound like a scrub because instead of playing some matches to actually try to not get grabbed you come in here and whine about how impossible it is while people who spend they're time getting good at this game instead of whining about how unfair it is don't consider any grab infinite (aside from the grab-release on the mother kids) broken at all. Even the grab-release infinite on the mother kids is up for debate.

Apparently this next bit is a little-known fact in the brawl boards. "Nonsense like this" doesn't break the game at all, it just makes it better and deeper because the more nonsense people find the more ways around it the victims are going to find. As we go through the cycle of making and breaking various tactics the game gets deeper, and this depth is what gives competitive games longevity.

If everyone played brawl with the mindset you have of "Oh, that's unfair bullcrap and we should ban it" then Brawl wouldn't see any good players staying in the scene for more than a year or so because they'd get bored doing the same crap over and over again. When something is discovered that proves to be a powerful tool, you should never ever cry ban until this tool has proven to make the game virtually unwinnable without using said tool.

Until you realize why we adopt this mindset and choose to allow the game to grow based on how it was programmed (glitchy or not) instead of how you think it should be played you will sound like a scrub to people who've overcome that mental handicap. You also will have a hard time improving because instead of adapting to seemingly broken situations you will just cry foul and pretend like there should be a rule against the grab infinite that beat you when you could be working hard on making things like outspacing grabs and baiting grab attempts into new good habits.

You also sound like a scrub because instead of actually adressing any points made by the opposing arguing force you use sarcasm to set up exaggerated straw-man arguments to try and make yourself look correct without actually saying anything of any consequence.

For the record, I think that Bridge of Eldin, along with a few other prematurely banned stages should be put back in because they don't break the game (even with the DDD chaingrab) they just make it boring.

As to your DK vs DDD comment, check in the tournament vids section and you find a california tournament in which a DK player known as CBK came up against a good DDD player called Zelgadis. The first time he came up against Zel, CBK switched to falco because he thought he'd have an easier time winning, and he went 0-2 to get knocked into the loser's bracket. When they faced off again, CBK went DK knowing the infinite was in play and beat Zel.

good DKs can still beat DDDs if the DK player is better.

All that is needed to be said.

 

[leelue]

1)



Not surprisingly, you're wrong. On all of this.


So you wouldn't want to ban it if it were Snake who had these chaingrabs because, hey, he's good enough already? Nice logic.

it's not about being the best, it's about winning.

People like you make me sick... honestly.
You argue by making a string of claims or insults or demeaning comments about someone, seldom if ever back them up with facts or some sort of credible opinion and have what appears to be zero conscious and zero honor.

I play a game called magic the gathering (i'm sure some of you must have heard of it), its one of those TCG's that have been running around for the last 15 yrs (its actually the first one, that has survived 15 years) and about a year ago (bear with me) a deck called dragonstorm surfaced. To put it blunty, if you didn't run dragonstorm, you probably were not going to win.
simple as that.
The only way you could beat it was to plan your whole deck around it and/or run a full sideboard tailored only to meet the needs of one deck in the format. The deck required only a minimal knowledge of basic arithmetic to win and beyond that, it was a 90% guarantee even with all the pre-planning everyone else had done.

In short, it sucked to play the game, knowing that no matter what you wanted to do, you will lose. The *******s (i have more choice words to describe them or you for that matter) who piloted these abominations had this horrible mentality that fun was not a component of the game, only winning, which sounds familiar. Last i checked the point of a GAME is to ENJOY PLAYING IT. Its not a hard concept. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite frankly to stuck up their own *** to know what fun is and honestly, their breeding privileges should be revoked imo.

My friend mains Dk and you (yes you yuna) said that the Dk player shouldn't pick Dk if he knows that he will lose to the D3. FALSE, for 2 reasons. First of all, disadvantages are impossible to have in any game, but to make a match completely imbalanced to the point of impossibility on purpose is just absurd (just like counterpicking in a friendly match, whats the point of a friendly match if you are going to pick second and not make it fair or fun (looking at you Knightmare516)). Furthermore to accept it as fair is just dirty, and makes you a worse person for it. I've played against falco's and Dedede's and dealt with their chain grabbing (not with the ones he can do forever and ever) and lost to and beaten them. But either way the match goes, I lose all respect for that player knowing that HE knew full and well that he decided to no longer inject fairness or sportsmanship into the game.

Secondly (o man i forgot there were supposed to be 2 points to that one), What is DK supposed to do, not pick first in a tournament match? what about in a crew battle, if he picks DK is he supposed to know going in that he WILL be knocked out, not because of skill, but because someone on their team knows how to play dedede? Thats preposterous. Its not like you dont weigh the pros and cons of a match when you pick first, but to see that wretched penguin/eagle/snowman on the other side of the screen knowing that no matter how good you are you will lose you might as well just put down the controller and say game 2.

Saying "dont get grabbed" or "kill nana" and passing them off as valuable advice is equally (well not equally) bad. It implies that your will has overarching sway over the outcome of every aspect of the game and your opponent, which would, actually mean you aren't fighting an opponent, you are in training mode. Did some people forget that the opponent is a player and a learner and just like every competent gamer gives you reactions in response to your actions? It should NOT go like this

I am facing Ice climbers
I will not get grabbed
*proceed to not get grabbed

Unless you are fighting a double amputee.

It SHOULD go like this...

I am facing IC
I will try not to get grabbed
wow i didnt see that coming, o well i am not god or some other omniscient being of any type so i can't be ****ing perfect and get what i want all the time
*proceeds to get grabbed even though he tried not to and failed

...if you are playing anyone with more skill than a hamster.

Its not the same as saying "dont get hit by Ike's forward smash" because lets face it people, that is at least somewhat doable. its feasible, even if its not going to work 100% of the time. But to simply say "don't get grabbed" or "kill nana" because its that easy is using some very very convoluted logic, ESPECIALLY when you fail to back up your arguments.

Go ahead Yuna
Go to a tournament and try to play every match without getting grabbed. Take a video of it, I want to see. And not just one, make it 2 or 3. the more you do, the more everyone here will listen and understand that its possible to do. But i won't wait around because honestly, it isn't.
OR how about this. Every time you get grabbed with whatever character you use and get thrown, let yourself get hit for another 30 damage or run off the stage. Every time. Now imagine that happened all that time without letting yourself take all the extra damage and you will know how much infinites or ridiculous chains are a detriment to the game as a whole.

Anything thats detrimental to the game should not exist
(exclusions include metaknight and sonics "you're too slow taunt")
Things that should not exist are listed here (but not limited to)

TRIPPING
Chaining to the point where the game is unfair or unplayable
Big blue
Rob's forward B
Jigglypuffs Up B
White pikmin (no im kidding)
People like you (not kidding)

All the above take the fun out of the game (except for the obvious jokes). Anything that takes the fun or sportsmanship out of ANY game should not exist, period. That includes people who take our favorite game to ****in seriously, and then go ahead and make an *** out of themselves by not presenting a real argument.

People who ARE better calculate better and PLAY better should win with the only thing getting in the way being dumb luck (o well) not stupid things like a down throw.

Now If you will excuse me I'm going to go play ROB and out play someone because ROB does that cuz he's Da Champ
CHAMP STATUS=PINK ROBOT

 

[Veggi]

you sound like a scrub because instead of playing some matches to actually try to not get grabbed you come in here and whine about how impossible it is while people who spend they're time getting good at this game instead of whining about how unfair it is don't consider any grab infinite (aside from the grab-release on the mother kids) broken at all. Even the grab-release infinite on the mother kids is up for debate.

Apparently this next bit is a little-known fact in the brawl boards. "Nonsense like this" doesn't break the game at all, it just makes it better and deeper because the more nonsense people find the more ways around it the victims are going to find. As we go through the cycle of making and breaking various tactics the game gets deeper, and this depth is what gives competitive games longevity.

If everyone played brawl with the mindset you have of "Oh, that's unfair bullcrap and we should ban it" then Brawl wouldn't see any good players staying in the scene for more than a year or so because they'd get bored doing the same crap over and over again. When something is discovered that proves to be a powerful tool, you should never ever cry ban until this tool has proven to make the game virtually unwinnable without using said tool.

Until you realize why we adopt this mindset and choose to allow the game to grow based on how it was programmed (glitchy or not) instead of how you think it should be played you will sound like a scrub to people who've overcome that mental handicap. You also will have a hard time improving because instead of adapting to seemingly broken situations you will just cry foul and pretend like there should be a rule against the grab infinite that beat you when you could be working hard on making things like outspacing grabs and baiting grab attempts into new good habits.

You also sound like a scrub because instead of actually adressing any points made by the opposing arguing force you use sarcasm to set up exaggerated straw-man arguments to try and make yourself look correct without actually saying anything of any consequence.

For the record, I think that Bridge of Eldin, along with a few other prematurely banned stages should be put back in because they don't break the game (even with the DDD chaingrab) they just make it boring.

As to your DK vs DDD comment, check in the tournament vids section and you find a california tournament in which a DK player known as CBK came up against a good DDD player called Zelgadis. The first time he came up against Zel, CBK switched to falco because he thought he'd have an easier time winning, and he went 0-2 to get knocked into the loser's bracket. When they faced off again, CBK went DK knowing the infinite was in play and beat Zel.

good DKs can still beat DDDs if the DK player is better.

I can't begin to understand how people could consider having an infinite against another player "fair." One player has to go through the whole match trying to play at the level they trained for, only to have a huge disadvantage of having a one grab stock loss. The only way around it is to not get grabbed, it takes away from game, it trashes the use of the moveset for the Dedede player. Plus the thing about the Ness/Lucas, how is the Dedede infinite any different at all from the Marth one?

Longevity doesn't have anything to do with this. You think that having Dedede players have an easy win against a DK player, it's going to make the DK player want to play some more? So they can be unfairly trashed by someone with a lower-skill level? Making and breaking isn't going to happen, do you seriously think that someone is going to break this? Why would a Dedede player ever not use this? A grab that does an infinite amount of damage? You are aware that this is one of the main reasons that people are going back to Melee, right? They understand that this takes away depth from the game and erases the skill gap tourneys are supposed to be based off of.

Reasons why it doesn't add depth:

VICTIM OF INFINITE GRAB

-The victim of it has an unfair advantage where the better player will lose unless he has a skill level much higher than the Dedede player.

-Learning how to deal with it takes away from the skill that the player earned against every other character, so that now they have to change their play style so that they have even a chance against such a large advantage. This is Smash Bros., not Pac-Man.

-This is based on the concept that you just have to learn to not get grabbed. When actually, every character can grab and all good players are trained in spacing themselves to avoid moves. Therefore nothing new is actually learned, in reality it's just a move that's can be 100x more effective. That's not stretched either. Imagine if Snake had a forward tilt that could do 400%. However, it only did that to some characters. It's a joke really, that something like this isn't banned.

PERSON DOING INFINITE GRAB

-Leaves out their moveset and then decides to use one move over and over, cutting depth severely.

-Erases skill that the Dedede player would use against the other characters and replaces it with chasing someone around pressing the grab button. Tourneys should never be like this.

-Requires an extremely less amount of spacing than the victim, do you know how hard it is to not get shield grabbed by Dedede?

If everyone played brawl with the mindset you have of "Oh, that's unfair bullcrap and we should ban it" then Brawl wouldn't see any good players staying in the scene for more than a year or so because they'd get bored doing the same crap over and over again.

^^
Please tell me you made this up. Do you really think that? Do you think the game wouldn't progress without exploits? Do you think infinites arn't the same thing over and over? Do you think playing Brawl standardly is the same thing over and over? If I played a match with my friend right now, do you think I would do the same things I did last time we played? Do you think if my friend picked Dedede and tried to infinite me it would be the same as the last time he tried to infinite me? The answer to the former is no, the answer to the latter is yes. Infinites are the same button inputs over and over. Seems to contradict itself.

Do you really think that if infinites didn't exist people would get bored and leave? Please. That's the opposite of what's happening.

Until you realize why we adopt this mindset and choose to allow the game to grow based on how it was programmed (glitchy or not) instead of how you think it should be played you will sound like a scrub to people who've overcome that mental handicap.

The game was programmed with items and stages, but we ban them for the same reasons infinites should be banned. They take away player skill.

You also will have a hard time improving because instead of adapting to seemingly broken situations you will just cry foul and pretend like there should be a rule against the grab infinite that beat you when you could be working hard on making things like outspacing grabs and baiting grab attempts into new good habits.

Please don't make things up about me.

You also sound like a scrub because instead of actually adressing any points made by the opposing arguing force you use sarcasm to set up exaggerated straw-man arguments to try and make yourself look correct without actually saying anything of any consequence.

How does that make me look like a scrub? I hate the word scrub, try to talk without using any offensive terms. I don't like them, you don't need them. They just bug people and they're useless.

Please tell me what you would consider breaking the game. Should I be able to make the other person start the match with an 100% handicap? Items are banned, the person with the higher skill level usually wins with items on. Some stages are banned, even though the better player will usually win. Rumble Falls would add depth to the game right? You could just find ways around not being killed by the stage. You could find ways around not being hit by items. The problem is: "usually" doesn't cut it.

Also about the video, telling me that a DK player can beat a Dedede player trying to infinite grab is what you've been doing for a while now. I know it's possible, but that's not what we're discussing here. Showing a video doesn't mean anything.

tl;dr version: competition is supposed to find out who the best player is.

 

[leelue]

dammit.. i had edited my post to make it sound less like a rant.
And agreed with Cstrife on a couple of things (including the whole letting the game evolve bit and i made a realization that people forgot that the game has only been out for like 4 months so maybe it will get better)
I even made a joke.
but the thingy said i wasn't signed in and when i did sign in it deleted everything i edited in. Boooooo.

O well, Cstrife i also commented on the fact that i respect people who at least TRY to make themselves sound intelligent (like you or hopefully me) even if they dont actually come across that way (which im sorry to say you did fall short from my perspective, but thats my view). This was really posted because Yuna and his mindset was pissing me off hardcore

O well, long story short, chaining sucks and its unfair but maybe the game will balance itself out or maybe not... but i for one am against it. Also Rob Rocks. Just throwing that out there.



In lieu of a quote from veggie, he makes valid points when he actually starts to explain them. I have on more than one occasion wanted to quit brawl because of chaining or infinites. My friends who were excellent at melee (all the ones who were really **** good) dislike brawl because of stupid things (not just tripping). This includes falco and dedede chains (but my friend C4 still uses falco, without chaining whenever possible)

Chaining is the same stuff over and over again, the game without it would be far far more interesting than losing a stock off of one grab or taking a 40 damage combo from Zero and being popped up in the air to boot.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

what more needs to be said other than "don't get grabbed" or "Kill Nana"? we can't tell you the exact formula for that since the same methods will not work in the same order, you kill Nana, or at least keep her from being close to Popo and desynced, the IC infinite cannot be done. couple that with their poor grab range and alot of people can avoid being grabbed. with DDD his entire moveset isn't discarded. he still camps with waddle dees, he can still use his other attacks to win. the CG is just a bonus tech the DDD player can utilized to win. Falco's only works at low percents, Marths only works on 2 characters, and you can escape it by air breaking the hold. fi your playing friends its fine not to use CG and infinites and such if thats what you want. but when moneys on the line, if you have something like a CG it can help you win.

 

[Veggi]

what more needs to be said other than "don't get grabbed" or "Kill Nana"? we can't tell you the exact formula for that since the same methods will not work in the same order, you kill Nana, or at least keep her from being close to Popo and desynced, the IC infinite cannot be done. couple that with their poor grab range and alot of people can avoid being grabbed. with DDD his entire moveset isn't discarded. he still camps with waddle dees, he can still use his other attacks to win. the CG is just a bonus tech the DDD player can utilized to win. Falco's only works at low percents, Marths only works on 2 characters, and you can escape it by air breaking the hold. fi your playing friends its fine not to use CG and infinites and such if thats what you want. but when moneys on the line, if you have something like a CG it can help you win.

Something around the lines of "Hey guys, infinites are banned, we decided that if they're actually good enough to be in a tourney they don't need it. It just gives an unfair advantage and that's not the kind of skill we test here." Why would he want to use any other attack other than grab? I use DK and half the things I use are grabs. The infinite isn't just a normal bonus, it's a huge bonus that isn't close to fair. There are still people that use those two characters. Also how could Ness and Lucas break out into the air on purpose? From what I remember that was up to the Marth player. If it's banned then it doesn't matter if it helps you win.

 

[leelue]

To jiggly zelda

At least you say thigs without being out and out insulting to the other side. Good, i like that.

on the other hand, i dont see any feasable way to go into a match and say dont get grabbed or separate nana, i mean, its a good plan but its not like you can just make it happen. I dont care, even mew2king or anyone else of comparable or better skill couldn't just make things happen like they were Neo of the matrix or something... its bound to happen, especially if the other guy recognizes your spacing and planning for what it is, a beatable strategy.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

@Veggi
the marth infinite on Ness and Lucas can be broken. you see they only stay in if they break the grab while Marth is hitting them. if they break out while he's not hitting them they jump break. so Marth has to time his hits right otherwise the ness/lucas player can escape. CG and infinites from some characters may not seem fair but hey if its a money match you want to win. most of the CG's do take a bit of work to be able to utilize effectively, especially when theres alot riding on the match. if they were truely that unfair then they would have been banned long ago. but some are escapable and all are preventable. and look at other chracters who do not have CG's but are already too good for other reasons, like MK and Snake and G&W. none of them, except situational Snake, has a CG.


@Leelue
its not quite that easy, but also not that hard to separate Nana from popo. im sure in every character board theres some method used to separate them from each character. most characters generally outreach the IC grab range so its not so simple for them to shield grab spaced attacks. the iceblocks can't outcamp even Zelda so camping is a viable option, and even if not proper spacing can avoid the grab. thats why you keep yourself unpredictable and reading the IC.

on a side note i myself do not use CGs b/c i for some strage reason cannot do them, no matter how hard i try.

 

[Veggi]

the marth infinite on Ness and Lucas can be broken. you see they only stay in if they break the grab while Marth is hitting them. if they break out while he's not hitting them they jump break. so Marth has to time his hits right otherwise the ness/lucas player can escape. CG and infinites from some characters may not seem fair but hey if its a money match you want to win. most of the CG's do take a bit of work to be able to utilize effectively, especially when theres alot riding on the match. if they were truely that unfair then they would have been banned long ago. but some are escapable and all are preventable. and look at other chracters who do not have CG's but are already too good for other reasons, like MK and Snake and G&W. none of them, except situational Snake, has a CG.

As long as Marth keeps pummeling there's nothing the Ness/Lucas player can do about it. It's all up to the Marth. The thing is everyone here knows how useful they are, which is why I want them banned. Matches need to be as fair as possible in a tourney match. The only infinite that takes work is the Ice Climbers one, but I don't know much about it so I have no opinion it. The thing is, no matter how unfair it is. People are stuck up on this idea that as long as it's not a stage or item, anything goes. Escapable/preventable I've already discussed. If I could make Snake, MK and G&W more balanced with the rest of the characters I would, but they have nothing worth banning other than the infinite cape or maybe ledge stalling.

 

[CHOMPY]

Theres so many ways to avoid infinite grabs. If the IC's try to grab you and say that a banana peel is there. They slip and there for cant grab you and so any projectiles can get in a players way. Falco can also is the down chain grab but only works to your about 40% and again, there are so many ways to avoid chain grabs. You just dont think about them.

 

[Veggi]

Theres so many ways to avoid infinite grabs. If the IC's try to grab you and say that a banana peel is there. They slip and there for cant grab you and so any projectiles can get in a players way. Falco can also is the down chain grab but only works to your about 40% and again, there are so many ways to avoid chain grabs. You just dont think about them.

Like, don't get grabbed?

I wish every character had bananas.

 

[CStrife187]

ok Veggi, I'm sorry I insulted you. I'm sorry if calling you a scrub made me sound less intelligent or made you angry.

to the whole thread, I'm sorry if I insulted anyone.

but you missed the point of my post which was in there somewhere that in actual tournaments

emphasis "ACTUAL TOURNMANENTS!!!!" DKs are still able to beat D3s who are close to their level.

You won't be able to beat them if you keep up this mindset, but the DKs who are actually good have already found ways around getting grabbed. Since several of DK's moves out-range DDD's grab, it's not so bad in that matchup. The only matchup where the DDD grab is really a problem is the Bowser one, but Bowser would lose to DDD anyway.

I think I made this point in another thread, but "don't get grabbed" is actually incredible advice if you actually take it instead of whining about how stupid it is. It will revolutionize the way you play the game.

Also @ Veggi, the top players already hate this game so what is there to keep them interested other than money and a developing metagame?

If you don't like infinites then play Super Turbo. (super street fighter II turbo for those who don't know.)

Reasons why the DDD infinite adds depth:

DDD player - thinks the infinite will win him a stock every time and so he goes for grabs when he doesn't need to. Sometimes, this works. Against actual good players, he gets ***** hardcore for his predictability and the vulnerability he has after whiffed grabs.

DK player - loses for a few weeks while he learns to outspace the DDD player. Once he does this, the DDD player now has no weapons to use because he thought about the infinite like you did. i.e. he thought it would be an easy win every time.

Even after all this has been said, the DDD infinite is only threatening to two characters, and one of those characters has a lot of weapons they can use to fight both the infinite, and the character, so it's clearly not worth a ban.

:edit:

I'm sorry that this sounds like a rant, but I just noticed another point you made that's completely invalid.

A DK player doesn't lose all the "skill" he has by learning to deal with the infinite. If he learns to consistently outspace DDD's grab, then he can apply that skill to many, many other matchups, unlike the DDD player.

SRSLY, don't get grabbed is real, it's useful, and it's not a joke.

 

[Perfect Hero]

People like you make me sick... honestly.
You argue by making a string of claims or insults or demeaning comments about someone, seldom if ever back them up with facts or some sort of credible opinion and have what appears to be zero conscious and zero honor.

I play a game called magic the gathering (i'm sure some of you must have heard of it), its one of those TCG's that have been running around for the last 15 yrs (its actually the first one, that has survived 15 years) and about a year ago (bear with me) a deck called dragonstorm surfaced. To put it blunty, if you didn't run dragonstorm, you probably were not going to win.
simple as that.
The only way you could beat it was to plan your whole deck around it and/or run a full sideboard tailored only to meet the needs of one deck in the format. The deck required only a minimal knowledge of basic arithmetic to win and beyond that, it was a 90% guarantee even with all the pre-planning everyone else had done.

In short, it sucked to play the game, knowing that no matter what you wanted to do, you will lose. The *******s (i have more choice words to describe them or you for that matter) who piloted these abominations had this horrible mentality that fun was not a component of the game, only winning, which sounds familiar. Last i checked the point of a GAME is to ENJOY PLAYING IT. Its not a hard concept. Anyone who thinks otherwise is quite frankly to stuck up their own *** to know what fun is and honestly, their breeding privileges should be revoked imo.
[/COLOR]

The game degenerated into a crappy game because of that one deck. If a game has only 1 viable deck to use, it'd be a pretty broken game(tcg). This isn't the case with Brawl.

I can't begin to understand how people could consider having an infinite against another player "fair." One player has to go through the whole match trying to play at the level they trained for, only to have a huge disadvantage of having a one grab stock loss. The only way around it is to not get grabbed, it takes away from game, it trashes the use of the moveset for the Dedede player. Plus the thing about the Ness/Lucas, how is the Dedede infinite any different at all from the Marth one?

Longevity doesn't have anything to do with this. You think that having Dedede players have an easy win against a DK player, it's going to make the DK player want to play some more? So they can be unfairly trashed by someone with a lower-skill level? Making and breaking isn't going to happen, do you seriously think that someone is going to break this? Why would a Dedede player ever not use this? A grab that does an infinite amount of damage? You are aware that this is one of the main reasons that people are going back to Melee, right? They understand that this takes away depth from the game and erases the skill gap tourneys are supposed to be based off of.

--YEAAAH......marvel :[[[

Reasons why it doesn't add depth:

VICTIM OF INFINITE GRAB

-The victim of it has an unfair advantage where the better player will lose unless he has a skill level much higher than the Dedede player.

-Learning how to deal with it takes away from the skill that the player earned against every other character, so that now they have to change their play style so that they have even a chance against such a large advantage. This is Smash Bros., not Pac-Man.

OMG someone has to change their playstyle in order to compete. OH NO! Lol stop spewing bs, how does learning how to deal with an infinite take away anything from the player that learned how to deal with the infinite.

-This is based on the concept that you just have to learn to not get grabbed. When actually, every character can grab and all good players are trained in spacing themselves to avoid moves. Therefore nothing new is actually learned, in reality it's just a move that's can be 100x more effective. That's not stretched either. Imagine if Snake had a forward tilt that could do 400%. However, it only did that to some characters. It's a joke really, that something like this isn't banned.

If all good players are trained into spacing themselves into avoiding moves, then you are bad player no?

PERSON DOING INFINITE GRAB

-Leaves out their moveset and then decides to use one move over and over, cutting depth severely.

Lol? Marvellllll

-Erases skill that the Dedede player would use against the other characters and replaces it with chasing someone around pressing the grab button. Tourneys should never be like this.

How yoo know?1 MARVEL!!

-Requires an extremely less amount of spacing than the victim, do you know how hard it is to not get shield grabbed by Dedede?

Ha you keep mentioning stuff like its hard. So you want da game to go EZ mode so you can enjoy it?? Their ain't no ez mode in competition. Some characters ahve good tools leave em be. That's like Marth needs leess spacing for his long range. Should we take away from marth's range because he has a better tool?

^^
Please tell me you made this up. Do you really think that? Do you think the game wouldn't progress without exploits? Do you think infinites arn't the same thing over and over? Do you think playing Brawl standardly is the same thing over and over? If I played a match with my friend right now, do you think I would do the same things I did last time we played? Do you think if my friend picked Dedede and tried to infinite me it would be the same as the last time he tried to infinite me? The answer to the former is no, the answer to the latter is yes. Infinites are the same button inputs over and over. Seems to contradict itself.

Lmao, after you play many games, its basically the same inputs anyway. So the game changes from being hard to being boring? Competition.;;

Oh and Marvall

Do you really think that if infinites didn't exist people would get bored and leave? Please. That's the opposite of what's happening.

The game was programmed with items and stages, but we ban them for the same reasons infinites should be banned. They take away player skill.

So say, we play a 1v1 right now, no infinites no nothing. And then we play another 1v1 with infinities you're saying u were more skillful whne there was less infinities. That sounds like the opposite buddy

Please don't make things up about me.


How does that make me look like a scrub? I hate the word scrub, try to talk without using any offensive terms. I don't like them, you don't need them. They just bug people and they're useless.

too bad you did make a post that bugs people and useless also

Please tell me what you would consider breaking the game. Should I be able to make the other person start the match with an 100% handicap? Items are banned, the person with the higher skill level usually wins with items on. Some stages are banned, even though the better player will usually win. Rumble Falls would add depth to the game right? You could just find ways around not being killed by the stage. You could find ways around not being hit by items. The problem is: "usually" doesn't cut it.

I don't get where you basing this off of. Marvel is broken to hell and it is one of the most competitive games. Aree you guessing what would happen if infinities stayed in? players learn to get around it. see marvel

Also about the video, telling me that a DK player can beat a Dedede player trying to infinite grab is what you've been doing for a while now. I know it's possible, but that's not what we're discussing here. Showing a video doesn't mean anything.

tl;dr version: competition is supposed to find out who the best player is.[/QUOTE]

What are we discussing here? If its possible, it doesn't break the game. If the game doesn't degenerate, only scrubs will complain.

All i read is

too hard - Lol
too boring - fun isnt the same to everyone
not fun - above
unfair - if differnt characters win tournaments, then this is wrong. oh yeah thers tiers omg unfair!
repetitive ha

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh my a very long post. and so many lols >__>
but is marvel really that broken?

 

[Veggi]

ok Veggi, I'm sorry I insulted you. I'm sorry if calling you a scrub made me sound less intelligent or made you angry.

to the whole thread, I'm sorry if I insulted anyone.

but you missed the point of my post which was in there somewhere that in actual tournaments

emphasis "ACTUAL TOURNMANENTS!!!!" DKs are still able to beat D3s who are close to their level.

You won't be able to beat them if you keep up this mindset, but the DKs who are actually good have already found ways around getting grabbed. Since several of DK's moves out-range DDD's grab, it's not so bad in that matchup. The only matchup where the DDD grab is really a problem is the Bowser one, but Bowser would lose to DDD anyway.

I think I made this point in another thread, but "don't get grabbed" is actually incredible advice if you actually take it instead of whining about how stupid it is. It will revolutionize the way you play the game.

Also @ Veggi, the top players already hate this game so what is there to keep them interested other than money and a developing metagame?

If you don't like infinites then play Super Turbo. (super street fighter II turbo for those who don't know.)

Reasons why the DDD infinite adds depth:

DDD player - thinks the infinite will win him a stock every time and so he goes for grabs when he doesn't need to. Sometimes, this works. Against actual good players, he gets ***** hardcore for his predictability and the vulnerability he has after whiffed grabs.

DK player - loses for a few weeks while he learns to outspace the DDD player. Once he does this, the DDD player now has no weapons to use because he thought about the infinite like you did. i.e. he thought it would be an easy win every time.

Even after all this has been said, the DDD infinite is only threatening to two characters, and one of those characters has a lot of weapons they can use to fight both the infinite, and the character, so it's clearly not worth a ban.

:edit:

I'm sorry that this sounds like a rant, but I just noticed another point you made that's completely invalid.

A DK player doesn't lose all the "skill" he has by learning to deal with the infinite. If he learns to consistently outspace DDD's grab, then he can apply that skill to many, many other matchups, unlike the DDD player.

SRSLY, don't get grabbed is real, it's useful, and it's not a joke.

Don't worry about the scrub thing.

There's no way you could know how close two people's skill levels are. Think about it this way, without the infinite grab, the DK and Dedede are about even right? Now a grab that could be used over and over can't be denied as a huge advantage. Right off the bat the DK player has to be much better to win. All attacks can be avoided, but one slip up being instant death to something as quick and as long range as Dedede's grab is a very very big disadvantaged. I shield grab everything with all of my characters, if I were Dedede it would be much easier to do it. From what I remember the only two moves that can't be shield grabbed by Dedede is a perfectly spaced bair and down b. So what am I supposed to do? Only use those moves?

Don't get grabbed is just another way of saying space yourself, which I already do. No one has perfect spacing, the best players get grabbed. So taken farther, "Don't get hit by any moves" would be good advice? Everyone tries not to get hit. Everyone will get it. Don't get grabbed is possible, I admitted that. However it is far too unlikely for myself and every DK player better than me.

You won't be able to beat them if you keep up this mindset, but the DKs who are actually good have already found ways around getting grabbed.

Turned around, Dedede players who are actually good have already found ways to avoid missing grabs. This version is more realistic. Your sort of right though, everyone who isn't DK must have it worse. Look at Mario, Luigi, Bowser and Samus. It must be a nightmare for them. It's sort of wierd having me say that considering I main Mario, but oddly I never gave the infinite against him any thought.

I go through matches all the time trying to avoid grabs, them and all other attacks. That's why I always approach with bair. Once I land on the ground though, I have to use my other attacks. Some attacks just don't work right after eachother. I can approach with the bair, after I land though, I know I can't jump in the air and use bair or use down b because it's going to be punished. All attacks are used at different times, so I space myself the best I can until it's a better option to do something else. Which is why I said that the Dedede match-up is just a much more serious version of what I was already doing.

It's sort of sad that a lot of the top players don't like Brawl. Poor balancing like this is one of the reasons they don't like it however. There are people who do like this game and go to tourneys, so I'd rather no give them one more reason to think Melee was better.

I've been playing Smash for years, I'd rather not pick up a new game because I ran out of luck when this was found. According to the depth thing, a player could just learn how to outspace his opponent and win every match perfectly. However the best Smash player in the world, whoever that is, wouldn't be able to do it. It's just not realistic, if you can avoid Dedede's grab, then you should be able to avoid everything else.

The infinite is threatening to all character's that it's possible on. A one grab death, is very, very threatening.

About the edit, if you talking about what I think you are. I worded it wrong.

@ Hero

I really can't argue with what your saying, because I really have no idea what your talking about. It seems like you make some sort of offensive comment, then reference Marvel. Are you talking about Marvel vs. Capcom? I really don't play that game, so I'm left in the dark here. However, keep your text to reasoning only. Don't make yourself look immature. The post I quoted was a good example of how to hold a conversation.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

other than the easy learning curve, hence brawls popularity, melee had more depth. at least DK has 2 options to attack and avoid grabing. look at poor Fox, his best approach is Dair, and he's infinited/CG by alot of characters.
and don't find it challenging to thwart someones greatest advantage and win the match?

 

[Calixto]

If I'm in a boxing match and I rail a mother ****ers kneecaps, causing him to go down for the round (or more likely, the game) that is not fair. There are rules to prevent that.


If I'm in a UFC match, and I slam the guy right below the belt, he's down for the round or the game. That is not fair, there are rules to prevent that.


If I'm in a Brawl Match, and I get infinite'd, one or more stocks, that may seal the game right there. That is not fair, there should be rules to prevent that.


The point of any competition is to win, that is clear to everyone. But there are (or at least, there should be) limits as to what exactly you can do. You can use infinites in Brawl to win, that doesn't mean you should. You can roid up to win a sports event, that doesn't mean you should.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

If I'm in a Brawl Match, and I get infinite'd, one or more stocks, that may seal the game right there. That is not fair, there should be rules to prevent that.
.

but you as the player can prevent that. its not impossible. if CG were really the ultimate thing then the IC's and DDD would be top/god tier cause they can CG everyone and their mother to victory. "Don't get grabbed" thats all we can say.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

quote from the official SBR ruleset: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187735

"Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling."

read it,no johns, and end this usless discussion already.

 

[Perfect Hero]

oh my a very long post. and so many lols >__>
but is marvel really that broken?

Yeah only like 5 characters are useable and about 5 teams are useable in top level play.

@V
Yes I keep referencing it because its competition thrives even though it is broken, repetitive, unfair. Wahtever excuses you making. If you don't know about other competitive FGs, why are you foretelling brawl's competitive future?

 

[Grunt]

Matches need to be as fair as possible in a tourney match.

I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculous, I laughed.

@Hero
I count 7.
Maybe 8.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

This is how it is in my mind: (correct me if im wrong) Tournament players play to win, tournament players want the game to have multiple tactics that all are legal. The players want relative fairness(as in items are turned off, and if a character was completely broken then they ban a certain tactic for them otherwise everyone would use him if they play to win) They only ban something that excessively dumb. This to me seems to contradict itself, if you play to win nothing should be banned... If you want to win, you choose the best character and exploit the most advantage giving tactics, that includes stalling, and infinites(the really gay ones) If your opponent wants to play to win, he will do similarly and be equally as gay. But this clearly isn't the case, I watch pro matches all the time, there are banned things and tactics that aren't banned but are generally understood to be lame. So to me, this seems as if competitive smashers ENJOY the game and like FAIRNESS. So while I don't care if infinites are banned or not, I definately think tournament players enjoy the game, and are not all about winning. Sure they love the prize money at the end, and there are some that will do absolutely everything to win, but still, the majority do care about others (albiet probibally very little) and do play fairly but, to win as well.

 

[Doggalina]

This is how it is in my mind: (correct me if im wrong) Tournament players play to win, tournament players want the game to have multiple tactics that all are legal. The players want relative fairness(as in items are turned off, and if a character was completely broken then they ban a certain tactic for them otherwise everyone would use him if they play to win) They only ban something that excessively dumb. This to me seems to contradict itself, if you play to win nothing should be banned... If you want to win, you choose the best character and exploit the most advantage giving tactics, that includes stalling, and infinites(the really gay ones) If your opponent wants to play to win, he will do similarly and be equally as gay.

You are wrong. If something doesn't cause the community to devolve into nothing (or next to nothing) but that tactic, then it isn't banned. For instance, in Melee, if the game devolved to only ICs (due to Wobbling and the fact that ICs can't be wobbled), then it would've been banned.

EVERYBODY, READ SOME SIRLIN BEFORE YOU TALK ABOUT THIS STUFF: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned/

EDIT: Oh, and if you want to avoid the infinite grab 100%, never use one of the 5 as your double blind starter. Only use them for counterpicks. Problem solved.

Oh, and I main DK in Brawl and I don't support banning DDD infinites.

EDIT2: DK is currently in B rank of Ankoku's tournament rankings list despite DDD. In Pacific West, where DDD is #1, DK is in C rank, but JUST below B.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

You are wrong. If something doesn't cause the community to devolve into nothing (or next to nothing) but that tactic, then it isn't banned. For instance, in Melee, if the game devolved to only ICs (due to Wobbling and the fact that ICs can't be wobbled), then it would've been banned.

... uhhh does this contradict something i said? I said they only ban something that is extremely dumb, because they want a relatively fair game. My main argument was actually that I think competitive players don't play just to win. Of course, now that you've said,

"If something doesn't cause the community to devolve into nothing (or next to nothing) but that tactic, then it isn't banned."

I'd just like to know, why are some stages banned? Not one of the stages if included would completely destroy the game. For instance, Yoshi's Island is apparently banned because not everyone can recover from a cloud... So what if your opponent camps out there, theres no way everyone in the world is going to say "wow, that is clearly the most efficient tactic in the game, I will definately switch my character, and choose only that map." That map is not game-breaking, but of course is generally dumb, and so is banned. Makes sense?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

some stages are banned because all it is is randomness. like the mario bros. stage. unless you have a reflector, and even if you do, all those things running around kill everything with relative ease. also its caged in where only side KO's work, mostly in the form of chucking those things at people. Green hill zone is banned b/c battle revolves around the check point not so much on the players. large stages like the temple are banned cause their too big and allow for infinite staling/camping w/e.

 

[Veggi]

other than the easy learning curve, hence brawls popularity, melee had more depth. at least DK has 2 options to attack and avoid grabing. look at poor Fox, his best approach is Dair, and he's infinited/CG by alot of characters.
and don't find it challenging to thwart someones greatest advantage and win the match?

This would actually help my arguement. Two moves is nothing to be proud of, also who can infinite Fox? I don't understand what your last sentance meant. Sorry.

The point of any competition is to win, that is clear to everyone. But there are (or at least, there should be) limits as to what exactly you can do. You can use infinites in Brawl to win, that doesn't mean you should. You can roid up to win a sports event, that doesn't mean you should.

Exactly, it's possible to win against someone using roids, but it's banned for obvious reasons.

quote from the official SBR ruleset: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187735

"Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling."

read it,no johns, and end this usless discussion already.

That has nothing to do with anything we're talking about.

Yes I keep referencing it because its competition thrives even though it is broken, repetitive, unfair. Wahtever excuses you making. If you don't know about other competitive FGs, why are you foretelling brawl's competitive future?

So if all items and stages we're put back in the game it be broken and unbalanced, you'd have to agree to that. That would make the game better? The game is competitive, the game being unbalanced doesn't make it more. Runescape is a terrible game, yet tons of people still play it. It doesn't mean it's a good game, it means tons of people play it.

I'm sorry, but this is so ridiculous, I laughed.

Finally, someone who agrees that all stages and items should be in tourneys.

 

[Doggalina]

I'd just like to know, why are some stages banned? Not one of the stages if included would completely destroy the game. For instance, Yoshi's Island is apparently banned because not everyone can recover from a cloud... So what if your opponent camps out there, theres no way everyone in the world is going to say "wow, that is clearly the most efficient tactic in the game, I will definately switch my character, and choose only that map." That map is not game-breaking, but of course is generally dumb, and so is banned. Makes sense?

How is that not gamebreaking? The game devolves into a camp fest with no possible end in sight.

The criteria for stage banning is different than the criteria for tactic banning.