Ike+

[Deleted member]

Deception on moves is good at a more casual level where players dont have a large knowledge of stages, characters, etc. In competitive play, a player is much more skilled and knowledgeable so they will punish ike's missed counter hard. And it will get punished due to its starting lag warning people. Think about how often a player misses counters with Marth or lucario and how they may get punished. Its a fair trade off.

Nair is a good move already. Not too slow, good shield stun, and has a good KB angle for combos. It could be better though as another option to make his game versatile and unpredictable when a player is inside ike's space and behind him.

Dsmash, however, is an impractical move, it isnt his best kill option and has large start up lag and end lag. Also, it does not hit both in front and behind Ike at the same time. Its impractical except as a surprise mix up in rare situations.

 

[leafgreen386]

So I've recently found out... I like ike.

And yes, ike's dsmash is his fastest smash, yet it's probably his worst one, since it's overshadowed by jab and ftilt in almost every imaginable situation you would use it in. I haven't really found this to be a problem, and making dsmash better doesn't seem like it would really help him all that much.

From what I've seen, ike's only real problem right now is his inability to relieve pressure when in the air. All of his aerials are too slow to break tight strings (nair comes out frame 15... fair frame 18... dair frame 16... bair at least comes out frame 7, but they can attack you at an angle such that won't hit). Like DS was saying earlier, NADT is sort of a double-edged sword for ike.

Nair and Dair should never connect out of a powershielded aerial (people just recover too fast, and shieldstun is insane), but if you can connect it then it's probably the best idea.

Pretty sure PS'd moves give vbrawl shieldstun. It's just that if you're not intentionally PS'ing something (and with only a 1 frame window, it's unlikely that you are), by the time you react to having PS'd, you won't be able to take advantage of the reduced shieldstun, unless you were hammering the 'A' button for a grab or something. That said, the opponent should be able to dodge or shield a nair or dair even if you did perform frame perfectly out of a PS.

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

Anyone have an experience with Ike dittos? The Ike I am facing likes using AAA, nair and fair and I seem to have trouble getting around that.

 

[Plum]

I've played like one Ike ditto and it was as bad as a G&W ditto.

As in you most likely are going to sit there spacing your Fairs (Bair in a G&W ditto) until somebody is a fraction of an inch off on their spacing and gets punished. *Insert small string here* until the situation is reset and go back to the spacing game. In the end the match takes like 7 minutes and blaah.

Dittos are just meh to be honest. Your best options to get around Ike's best options as Ike are your own best options, which just so happens to be his best way of getting around your best options. From the little experience I had it was just a camp fest that came down to who could space better. If he Nairs, you retreat a Fair and hit him. If he's close range you just jab before he jabs. If he Fairs, you hope he is slightly off on his spacing and that your Fair will be able to hit him.

 

[ThatGuy]

Anticipate when he uses an aerial (which should be every time he jumps LOL) and simply charge grounded SideB while he's airborne. Should hit every time unless you were too close.

 

[leafgreen386]

Anyone have an experience with Ike dittos? The Ike I am facing likes using AAA, nair and fair and I seem to have trouble getting around that.

Do what your opponent does, but do it better. That's simply how a lot of dittos play out.

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[GHNeko]

Fair + Edge Cancel + Spacing = One really pissed of 5ive.

 

[Alphatron]

Do what your opponent does, but do it better. That's simply how a lot of dittos play out.

Like vbrawl chaingrabbing in Dedede dittos.


...I hated them so much...

 

[Plum]

Like vbrawl chaingrabbing in Dedede dittos.


...I hated them so much...

CG'ing to the edge and starting the ledge infinite wasn't THAT bad...

Spoiler

worst ditto EVAR

 

[JCaesar]

You've clearly never played an Olimar ditto...

 

[Plum]

Dittos are already gay. When the ditto involves two characters that infinite each other, that's just ********.

 

[GHNeko]

Snaaaake dittos are the dumbest.

 

[shanus]

I love snake dittos. The most fun dittos are RC1 Ness dittos

 

[GHNeko]

I think dittos where characters can gimp each other are dumb.

 

[JCaesar]

Snake dittos ... the only dittos in any fighting game ever that are 60:40.

 

[Plum]

Snake: If your not 4th controller port then you need to step up your Rock Paper Scissors game.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Dedede dittos in vBrawl are 100:0 Match-ups, as one Dedede always wins, chaingrabs/infinites/etc.

I ****in HATED that ditto. It's beyond stupid.

And Sonic dittos. Have fun never hitting each other and running out the clock due to lack of kill power.

And I need more reason for why GSH2 Ike is too good.

 

[Plum]

Has anything changed with Ike himself?
One thing that I do notice is how he abuses edge canceled aerials like a pro.
When you have a monstrous spacing tool and a way to cancel your lag then things are going to be fun.

 

[5ive]

And I need more reason for why GSH2 Ike is too good.

Because Neko uses him. **** fair.

 

[GHNeko]

Edge Cancel Fair 2gud.

 

[ThatGuy]

Dedede dittos in vBrawl are 100:0 Match-ups, as one Dedede always wins, chaingrabs/infinites/etc.

I ****in HATED that ditto. It's beyond stupid.

And Sonic dittos. Have fun never hitting each other and running out the clock due to lack of kill power.

And I need more reason for why GSH2 Ike is too good.

Because RC1/GSH1 Ike was already too good, so there is no reason to believe that GSH2 Ike is worse.

 

[Foo_]

Is it just me or is Ike's grab in GSH2 RIDICULOUSLY HUEG? It's grabs like ten feet in front of him. It's not Melee Marth bad, but still... it's weird.

 

[Deleted member]

Is it just me or is Ike's grab in GSH2 RIDICULOUSLY HUEG? It's grabs like ten feet in front of him. It's not Melee Marth bad, but still... it's weird.

Ike's grab range does look and feel bigger, but i cant say that for sure.

and ITT: bad dittos.

 

[GHNeko]

Because RC1/GSH1 Ike was already too good, so there is no reason to believe that GSH2 Ike is worse.

He just needs to experience Fair.

 

[Plum]

Is it just me or is Ike's grab in GSH2 RIDICULOUSLY HUEG? It's grabs like ten feet in front of him. It's not Melee Marth bad, but still... it's weird.

I play a character who literally grabs 10 feet in front of him.

:V

How does Ike play in teams?
I tried him in some friendly teams, and I just had trouble adapting how I use him in singles over to teams. Doesn't seem like he offers too much support from an initial glance, but I'm sure there's plenty he can do with that wonderful sword of his for his partner. In singles he flows so well, but when I had a partner to worry about he just got clunky for me.

 

[The Cape]

Because RC1/GSH1 Ike was already too good, so there is no reason to believe that GSH2 Ike is worse.

This man has it exactly right!

 

[Deleted member]

How does Ike play in teams?
I tried him in some friendly teams, and I just had trouble adapting how I use him in singles over to teams. Doesn't seem like he offers too much support from an initial glance, but I'm sure there's plenty he can do with that wonderful sword of his for his partner. In singles he flows so well, but when I had a partner to worry about he just got clunky for me.

Ike lacks good precision but makes up for it in great spacing and power. This makes him run the risk of killing his own teammate or mucking up a teammate's options accidentally. Also, ike doesnt seem to support teammates well with edge guard help or saving them offstage. A more quick/precise character like Marth,MK, Fox would probably be better for doubles.

This man has it exactly right!

Ike couldnt get worse singularly, but his position regarding other characters and how good they are may change . GHS2 Ike has to be better in that logic which is true, but still no solid recovery that he needs.

 

[GHNeko]

:V

How does Ike play in teams?
I tried him in some friendly teams, and I just had trouble adapting how I use him in singles over to teams. Doesn't seem like he offers too much support from an initial glance, but I'm sure there's plenty he can do with that wonderful sword of his for his partner. In singles he flows so well, but when I had a partner to worry about he just got clunky for me.

He plays well with someone who can flow around Ike. When I played teams with Ike at hobo 21. I did nothing but pressure and space with Fair and at first, my partner had issues, as did I, but as we progressed, he sort of formed a river around me. It's like Ike is a blot of oil and your partner is a flow of water that flows around the blot. It works in the sense that it allows you to cover more aerial. If you have an opponent who's Fair is the length of 1/3 of BF and he's doing nothing but spacing that Fair and you've got his partner on the other side of the stage, it's kinda hard to effectively move around without getting hit by it unless you have a projectile.

 

[Sterowent]

watching ike in play is always entertaining, especially in this set. yet, while his main weakness is his recovery, it's still so awful that it holds him back more than i think it should. after all, ike already has other, unrelated weaknesses such as his inability to escape aerial pressure (juggles) well at all (hah, FE chars).

is it possible to allow his sideB to charge up a smidgen faster? whatever is most balanced, certainly, but any speedup at all would be lovely. in this sense, his recovery doesn't change much at all, but he navigates the air and stage a bit faster in this sense. perhaps his sideB's initial distance could already be a portion of charged immediately if charging times aren't possible.

characters with bad recoveries at least have a choice in b+. link is likely going to get bomb jumping when possible, and for good reason. ivy gained a dair stall and a slightly faster upB. ness got fair momentum. ganon got downB jump back. Lucario got...well...alright, that's a tradeoff. diddy got...

anyway. point is, many really terrible recoveries got a buff to keep them on par. ike got a sideB that refreshes his recovery on swing, but...hitting with sideB in the air is a laggy affair. if ike is on the level of the stage at any point during his recovery, he's dead easily. speeding up the charge or making it initially stronger, or, hell, making the lagginess less substantial, any of these options could alleviate some of the too effective tactics that destroy ike. it's going to hold him back until it's addressed...properly.

just sayin'. what are your thoughts?

 

[RPGsFTW]

http://www.youtube.com/user/metroid1117

Has anyone else watched Metroid1117's videos? God ****, I never knew that Ike could be so good. 0_o

Excellent matches to all of the players, by the way. Metroid's Ike is a beeeeeast!

 

[Deleted member]

watching ike in play is always entertaining, especially in this set. yet, while his main weakness is his recovery, it's still so awful that it holds him back more than i think it should. after all, ike already has other, unrelated weaknesses such as his inability to escape aerial pressure (juggles) well at all (hah, FE chars).

is it possible to allow his sideB to charge up a smidgen faster? whatever is most balanced, certainly, but any speedup at all would be lovely. in this sense, his recovery doesn't change much at all, but he navigates the air and stage a bit faster in this sense. perhaps his sideB's initial distance could already be a portion of charged immediately if charging times aren't possible.

characters with bad recoveries at least have a choice in b+. link is likely going to get bomb jumping when possible, and for good reason. ivy gained a dair stall and a slightly faster upB. ness got fair momentum. ganon got downB jump back. Lucario got...well...alright, that's a tradeoff. diddy got...

anyway. point is, many really terrible recoveries got a buff to keep them on par. ike got a sideB that refreshes his recovery on swing, but...hitting with sideB in the air is a laggy affair. if ike is on the level of the stage at any point during his recovery, he's dead easily. speeding up the charge or making it initially stronger, or, hell, making the lagginess less substantial, any of these options could alleviate some of the too effective tactics that destroy ike. it's going to hold him back until it's addressed...properly.

just sayin'. what are your thoughts?

Ike doesnt really get options to recover though. He has to either A: Charge side-b or B: Aether.

The lack of options kills you when youre below the stage to the left/right a certain amount. This is where any character can recover diagonally but ike can only recover vertically with small horizontal gain (similar to kirby but kirby can jump 5x diagonally towards the stage).
Or large horizontal gain with declining vertical height.

Problem: Ike needs diagonal gain.

My proposition would be to increase the horizontal gain on Aether by 1.5x. Or have Aether not cancel horizontal momentum? =O
Have Ike's Quick Draw not send him into helpless mode and refresh a double jump, but QD can only be used one time in the air and refreshes upon landing.

Otherwise Ike is solid except for his Dsmash and counter. Those are bleh.

http://www.youtube.com/user/metroid1117

Has anyone else watched Metroid1117's videos? God ****, I never knew that Ike could be so good. 0_o

Excellent matches to all of the players, by the way. Metroid's Ike is a beeeeeast!

Ike is a great solid character and the man plays a cool Ike. Reverse Aether spike edgehogging is too fun.

 

[BG3]

@Sterowent and drpepper: I have not been stressing Ike's recovery problem enough. I really do think SOMETHING needs to be done to it. It's by far one of the worst recoveries if not THE worst recovery in the game. It is way too easily gimped, and it just simply holds Ike back way too much. In a combination of what Sterowent suggested or maybe(again maybe) we could make QD work like Luigi's green missile, meaning he can infinitely use it. Ike isn't exactly the most overpowered character on-stage, so it's only fair that he gets some type of recovery. Or hell, maybe increase his air speed, whatever. Just anything that makes him better to compensate for his recovery.

 

[Deleted member]

@Sterowent and drpepper: I have not been stressing Ike's recovery problem enough. I really do think SOMETHING needs to be done to it. It's by far one of the worst recoveries if not THE worst recovery in the game. It is way too easily gimped, and it just simply holds Ike back way too much. In a combination of what Sterowent suggested or maybe(again maybe) we could make QD work like Luigi's green missile, meaning he can infinitely use it. Ike isn't exactly the most overpowered character on-stage, so it's only fair that he gets some type of recovery. Or hell, maybe increase his air speed, whatever. Just anything that makes him better to compensate for his recovery.

Individually the recoveries are great in terms of Aether's vertical gain, and Quick Draw's horizontal gain, but a situation where youre below the stage and a big diagonal is a hopeless recovery. Due to Quick draw's vertical loss and Aether's small horizontal gain, the recoveries are fragile. One or two tweaks is all it really needs. If quick draw refreshes double jump but can only be used once in the air, then itd be perfect. Oh and quick draw never goes to helpless state too.

 

[Revven]

Oh and quick draw never goes to helpless state too.

We already had done this, it's broken and by that I mean it breaks the typical idea "good onstage, badish recovery". He already has no helpless when he swings the sword so if you get edgehogged while QD'ing and you hit them, you can grab the edge or even if you swing during their invinc you can Up B and live. Also, there's no more of that "lol I'll just jump out and AD through Ike's Side B, he'll swing and die" His recovery already got buffed with this, it takes the weakness and doesn't make it as bad anymore...

Go watch Silven's Ike and you tell me if Ike needs a recovery buff, he is actually pretty **** good onstage.

 

[BG3]

But what exactly is so good about Ike's on-stage game that compensates for his garbage recovery? I mean, if I'm not mistaken, I'd say characters like Marth, Fox, Falco, and DK have not much worse if not better on-stage games than Ike but they still get much better recoveries. In this case, why would someone choose Ike(besides personal preference) over some of the characters I mentioned above?

 

[ThatGuy]

Because Ike is better than those garbage characters!

 

[Paracelsus]

But what exactly is so good about Ike's on-stage game that compensates for his garbage recovery? I mean, if I'm not mistaken, I'd say characters like Marth, Fox, Falco, and DK have not much worse if not better on-stage games than Ike but they still get much better recoveries. In this case, why would someone choose Ike(besides personal preference) over some of the characters I mentioned above?

Why would anyone choose any character other than a top tier character? Is that what you're asking? Are you serious?

 

[BG3]

That's not what I meant, but it may have sounded like that. The first sentence is what I'm actually trying to say.

"What exactly is so good about Ike's on-stage game that compensates for his garbage recovery?"

 

[Deleted member]

We already had done this, it's broken and by that I mean it breaks the typical idea "good onstage, badish recovery". He already has no helpless when he swings the sword so if you get edgehogged while QD'ing and you hit them, you can grab the edge or even if you swing during their invinc you can Up B and live. Also, there's no more of that "lol I'll just jump out and AD through Ike's Side B, he'll swing and die" His recovery already got buffed with this, it takes the weakness and doesn't make it as bad anymore...

Go watch Silven's Ike and you tell me if Ike needs a recovery buff, he is actually pretty **** good onstage.

Ike's recoveries are good that they can adequately get him to the stage with a large horizontal from QD and a good vertical from Aether. The point is when he is diagonally below the stage he cannot do both to make a recovery. He cannot make a sufficient recovery where almost any other character would easily recover.

Its fine if Ike has a bad recovery in terms of options offstage, but if a character is so close to the stage, but hindered by what is a linear path of recoveries so much so that they cannot recover well at all is problematic. It reminds me of Luigi's recovery in Melee- too horizontal and too vertical to recover.