Ike+

[GHNeko]

That's not what I meant, but it may have sounded like that. The first sentence is what I'm actually trying to say.

"What exactly is so good about Ike's on-stage game that compensates for his garbage recovery?"

You do realize he can outrange pretty much every single non-projectile attack with 2 of his aerials and has really good potential for mindrape simply because of the massive fear factor this guy carries from being able to kill almost as well as Boozer/Ganon while having more speed and mobility on stage, right?

 

[BG3]

You do realize he can outrange pretty much every single non-projectile attack with 2 of his aerials and has really good potential for mindrape simply because of the massive fear factor this guy carries from being able to kill almost as well as Boozer/Ganon while having more speed and mobility on stage, right?

Can't DDD do this just as well, by pretty much using bair? Sorry if I sound like I'm just complaining, but I sincerely hope something can be done to Ike's recovery other than just leaving it the way it is.

 

[GHNeko]

Bair was nerfed lol. And Ike can still out range D3 pre-Bair with Fair/Bair, and now it's even easier to do.

He probably has the longest ranged aerial in the game now that isnt a grab/projectile/special move.

 

[Sterowent]

Bair was nerfed lol. And Ike can still out range D3 pre-Bair with Fair/Bair, and now it's even easier to do.

He probably has the longest ranged aerial in the game now that isnt a grab/projectile/special move.

you talking about fair?

from what i gather of that move, it is, of course, above average, but how good is it really? first, it's an amazing spacing tool. second, it can kill, eventually. what else is there to say about it? it fits with Ike's paradigm? well, what is ike's paradigm though?

ike looks to be a spacing character that has problems recovering. what else? does he get kills easily? arguably, no. now, that's a bit strange to say, but fair is slow enough to be seen that it's shieldable on reaction. bair is fast, but hitting a crouching or shorter character is a problem, and watching ike approach is a messy situation. nair can combo, at least, but ike isn't terribly mobile to make landing anything this specific an easy task. uair too, though it kills pretty well. maybe neutral combo, or bad DI off of throws? utilts too, i suppose.

originally, i saw ike as a slower marth that overpowered his opponents instead of gimped them, but his speed makes landing things more difficult and his weight combined with his worse recovery than marth make for a character that falls short of that description. in a lot of ways, marth's fair compared with ike's reflects the whole flawed condition of what ike Is: a marth that traded down to a recovery more extreme but predictable and so easily foiled, a slight range increase with a different attack classification (no clanks) for his ability to combo and tipper kill, and overall power for his better mobility and gimp abilities.

what is ike? is being a good spacing character any good when you have to constantly rely on moves as long as fair? What is Ike, if not a lesser Marth, then?!

 

[GHNeko]

Fair is pretty save when you tip it imo. There is enough shield stun and distance and low enough lag for you to have a low enough negative advantage that really only tethers have a chance at punishing you.

Spam Spaced Fairs, Win matches!

 

[Bandit]

Want to kill with Ike? Grab+UThrow+Uair = Death

His recovery is pretty good. Marth's would love to have that horizontal mobility. You should not allow yourself to be put in a below stage diagonal to ledge situation. DI the move based on this knowledge and use his heavy weight to his advantage.

Oh, and Jab is amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

He probably has the longest ranged aerial in the game now that isnt a grab/projectile/special move.

Ivy's bair I think is bigger, but yeah fair is **** spacing.

Can't DDD do this just as well, by pretty much using bair? Sorry if I sound like I'm just complaining, but I sincerely hope something can be done to Ike's recovery other than just leaving it the way it is.

DDD can force approaches, Ike can't. Don't just complain about his recovery- give reasons and ideas. Anybody can complain, so back yourself up.

 

[BG3]

My thoughts are pretty much summed up by what Sterowent said.

 

[GHNeko]

WHAT IS AN IKE?

NOTHING BUT A MISERABLE PILE OF SYMPATHY.

BUT ENOUGH TALK, HAVE YOU.

Spoiler

caps

 

[Bandit]

From what I have played, Ike does well against Marth and Wolf. I'm pretty sure, at this juncture, Ike completely out spaces Marth and is able to control the stage while Marth is constantly looking for ways to get in.

The only reason it remains close is that Marth can use counter to gimp Ike's UpB recovery.

The Wolf match-up was a very surprising one to me. I'm not totally sure what to tell you about it other than Wolf has problems getting in on Ike.

For these match-ups, I used Fair, Nair, Jab, Side-B, Uthrow-->Uair, Dthrow-->Fair and UpB. I never used anything else, and yes, I play a very defensive, campy Ike.

 

[Dark Sonic]

More people need to use up angle'd f-tilts against Marth, or against airborne characters in general. It's ****ing ****.

 

[JCaesar]

From what I have played, Ike does well against Marth and Wolf. I'm pretty sure, at this juncture, Ike completely out spaces Marth and is able to control the stage while Marth is constantly looking for ways to get in.

The only reason it remains close is that Marth can use counter to gimp Ike's UpB recovery.

The Wolf match-up was a very surprising one to me. I'm not totally sure what to tell you about it other than Wolf has problems getting in on Ike.

For these match-ups, I used Fair, Nair, Jab, Side-B, Uthrow-->Uair, Dthrow-->Fair and UpB. I never used anything else, and yes, I play a very defensive, campy Ike.

GJ basing your general matchup thoughts entirely on the few games we played last night

 

[Rubyiris]

More people need to use up angle'd f-tilts against Marth, or against airborne characters in general. It's ****ing ****.

More people need to ftilt in general. I've been saying Ike's Ftilt is broken for a year. It's just good in pretty much every way possible.

 

[Bandit]

GJ basing your general matchup thoughts entirely on the few games we played last night

The Marth thing I've actually thought for awhile and experienced before and not just against you. The Wolf I am basing off a few matches.

Ftilt is not broken. It's not incredibly fast, and it is punishable. It does have great power though for a tilt. Against quicker characters, I'm not too inclined to use it though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That's why I said to use it against airborne characters <_<. It'll out prioritize most aerials and is quick enough to throw out on reaction to them...getting close to you.

Just try it on Marth and Jiggs, I think you might like the results.

 

[Bandit]

I never read your message. Totally missed that, but I was responding to Rubyiris.

I'll work it into my game though.

 

[goodoldganon]

F-tilt as an anti-air? That's...that's...madness. I'll have to try it. Either way, Ike is so solid in all aspects of the game. Dash canceled Tilts, grabs, and jabs are all pro. His f-air has to be one of the 'dumbest' moves in the game that the WBR isn't touching. It just eats everything. He has pretty reliable kill setups and his recovery isn't nearly as bad as it was in vBrawl. With good DI Ike can live for a long time.

My only problem with Ike is beating projectile spamming Falcos and Samus. The Links can be a huge *** pain but I find if I can get in a safe zone where my sword outranges his but I'm close enough to not allow him to reliably spam projectiles I can hold my own. How do you combat projectiles cause right now it seems to be the glaring weakness in all my characters. (cries for maining Dorf and Ike)

 

[Bandit]

Jab... then jab again.

Honestly, you should find someone else to deal with projectile spammy characters. Jab is his only reliable option since all his aerials have TP. Therefore, none of them stop projectiles.

 

[ThatGuy]

You can powershield projectiles, it's not too difficult with a 5 frame powershield. Falco's shield pressure is much more of an issue than his projectiles.

 

[Doval]

Wait. F-tilt can be angled?

.........Oh ****.

 

[Bandit]

You can powershield projectiles, it's not too difficult with a 5 frame powershield. Falco's shield pressure is much more of an issue than his projectiles.

It's a 1 frame powershield. The answer of shielding is just ignorant to the level of tournament play. While shielding is important, it's not all that can or should be done.

 

[The Cape]

Last I checked the txt file it was a 2 frame powersheild. Might be something to look into.

And with the way the code works, it may even be a 3 frame powersheild.

 

[Doval]

Last I checked the txt file it was a 2 frame powersheild. Might be something to look into.

As far as I've been playing Brawl+, the powershield window in the game has always been 1 frame less than the number you put into the code.

 

[ThatGuy]

It's a 1 frame powershield. The answer of shielding is just ignorant to the level of tournament play. While shielding is important, it's not all that can or should be done.

Wait what? I don't understand what you're saying at all, I was just talking about Falco's shield pressure in general. Can you please elaborate on how shielding is important, yet is ignorant to the level of tournament play?

 

[Bandit]

I was talking about projectiles in general. Just saying power shield the projectiles would've been an ignorant response. And, it was not a 5 frame window anyway to power shield.

Falco doesn't give you many options though, I will give you that. I'll play Thunderhorse saturday and see what's up for the match-up. I'm predicting Falco owns this match-up. Ike is just too big & slow of a target for the laser setups. Of course, I play Zelda and it usually runs pretty even with that matchup, and it has nothing to do with her reflector being used as a reflector.

 

[ThatGuy]

The Falco matchup isn't too bad actually, it's a relatively even matchup if you can navigate around the lasers and prevent him from getting inside. He also gets comboed pretty handily (the converse is also true ). It's just annoying when he does get inside and has the opportunity to do all kinds of annoying shield pain.

 

[goodoldganon]

I could imagine once Falco is off the stage, Ike will pretty much be guaranteed a kill, but that really isn't that radical of a new threat for Falco in any matchup. Like I assume a lot of Falco's matchups are, I think this will be stage dependent. It will be much closer to even on a stage like Battlefield or Wario Ware, but Falco will dominate on some place like Final D.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Nah, it doesn't get any closer on smaller stages. Falco's pressure game is Ike's biggest problem, lasers just get Falco close enough to use it. (lasers can be dealt with, Falco's assortment of shield pressure options cannot)

 

[ThatGuy]

Ike is the cool! Anyone who not agree know not who he is...

 

[ThatGuy]

Awesome discussion guys.

Anyone have any good setups to land more grabs?

 

[Alphatron]

Jab cancel.

 

[ThatGuy]

God**** one liners. I don't necessarily mean guaranteed grabs, but just good things to do that will lead into them.

Ex. "Most of the time an opponent will try to airdodge your follow up after an Fthrow, you could bait that and get a grab on them." Just basic tendencies people have noticed happening often.

 

[Rayku]

Falco vs. Ike is even, I say. I'm not sure if any replays I got this weekend were saved, so I don't know about any video proof, but Ike does just fine. Of course I'm mainly referring to Falco never being able to recover. Falco offstage against Ike is fun times.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Falco doesn't recover against ANYBODY <_<.

I feel that Ike just has too much trouble getting out of pressure for this to really fix the matchup for him.

I could really use some advice for this matchup, because I'm just not seeing what I'm supposed to be doing. I SHAD past lasers, but keep getting locked out by Falco's jab at close range and if I space myself out I just eat a shine during my startup lag on fair, nair, or f-tilt.

Basically...how do I approach Falco with Ike? Help please? Defending against his approach is relatively simple, but getting past his defense is a nightmare for me.

 

[Rayku]

I treat Ike like Ganondorf in Melee in almost every instance. They're essentially the same character if you think about it.

I always approach Falco from above. Ike's F-air has so much range that it easily gets past most of his defensive options from above. F-tilt is good at punishing a spotdodge.

It's hard to explain without giving real-life examples, though. At least, it is for me. Just treat the matchup like Ganondorf in Melee treats the Falco matchup, only keep in mind Falco doesn't have shine for shield pressuring anymore

 

[IkeHero]

Your opening move sholud be a jump.Forcing Falco to fight you in the air is always a good way to beat him,because then you can use the range of the sword to your advantage.If only you could fight the Black Knight.Well,that ship has sadly sailed.

 

[A New England Winter]

List of things needed to be addressed:

-Ike's morbid recovery. It's ****ty even by B+ standards, covers barely any ground, and basically says **** you if you ever need to recover. Make his forward b charge faster (2x maybe?), and his Aether needs more vertical mobility

-Ike needs a faster UTilt. It kills at decent percents and would be very good for juggling earlier on if it were just a smidge faster, maybe half the startup and end lag that it has?

And then he'd be perfect

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

just a note to all ike users: (all combos tested on mario in training mode)
for jabs-> A-*crouch cancel*-A-A-A works as a combo every time, just an extra 1st punch thrown at the start of your jab makes it a 20% jab combo, imagine getting someone up to 100% in 5 jab combos...
and to a standing opponent -> dair sweetspot >u-tilt works really well @ around 20%
and again, to a floored enemy -> dair > fsmash works around 35%
just a few hints i'd throw in to the community.
*sigh*
if only this thread was alive..

 

[goodoldganon]

D-air to F-smash is known as the 'Pro Combo' man. It's the most gratifying feeling.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

D-air to F-smash is known as the 'Pro Combo' man. It's the most gratifying feeling.

yeah,
I think ike's combos are becoming more cookie cutter in this build
they're at 20%
dair>utilt>bair>ftilt
i find myself doing that combo 4 times a match, or more xD
although i cant complain because it feels good to combo with ike