Ike+

[ThatGuy]

When he connects with his Side B right now he has no fall special... so you can already Up B or Side B again as it is. It wouldn't be broken, but, right now his recovery super gimptasticness has already been fixed. :x

I know. What I'm saying is what if he got his double jump back as well if the side B connects?

 

[Stevo]

was the lag after Ikes forward b WITHOUT connecting increased?

it seems like there is more wait till you can do another move from his forward b. (like.... without him swinging)

 

[Nybb]

I know. What I'm saying is what if he got his double jump back as well if the side B connects?

It's not really necessary in my experience. If you doublejump, side-b, get interrupted, then up-B or side-B again, you can pretty much always make it back. Not to mention that you just knocked the other player away. And this suggestion also doesn't really address the problem of Ike getting absolutely assraped by gimp characters.

was the lag after Ikes forward b WITHOUT connecting increased?

it seems like there is more wait till you can do another move from his forward b. (like.... without him swinging)

This was a legit bug that was in the first version of B+ v5.0...the frame speed engine was messed up and skipping lines. They fixed this with a new .gct file within the first day or two of 5.0's release. There is a chance that this could be what you are experiencing, if you downloaded 5.0 right after it came out and didn't get the fixed codes.


I do feel that Ike might need just a bit more of a boost to be up with the rest of the cast, but we should be catering to his strengths instead of fixing weaknesses. One suggestion off the top of my head would be to lower the trajectory of either his fthrow or bthrow so it allows for techchases. Power characters love techchases, and his grab game is really bad right now, so this seems like it could be a good idea on paper.

I am kind of picturing DDD's dthrow, but maybe on Ike's bthrow to make it different. That way he could jab / nair somebody who rolls in front of him, bair / dair / pivot-ftilt somebody who stays in place, or side-b > jab to try to catch somebody who techs away. It would be buff that adds mindgames / depth to Ike's game, instead of doing something "E-Z mode" like buffing his recovery. Plus it would give him a good setup for edgeguarding if he can get a grab in close to the edge.

 

[Viquey]

*raises her hand in total favor of the no special fall on side-b*

With his weight and falling speed, it's actually fairly uncommon, in my experience, to be high enough to side-b. So for it to not go into special fall afterwards would mean he could cover some amount of horizontal distance without worrying about mistiming it by a millisecond and falling to his death helplessly. :/

And if you really have a problem with him potentially being able to chase people off stage with it or go under stages (either of which would at the very least be pretty risky IMO, because even with unlimited side-b and his up-b and double jump, his recovery and aerial movement ain't exactly the best in the game), then make it so he can only use it once before landing, but still can do other stuff--such as DJ, aerials, and Aether. Like ZSS and her down-B. :D

But eh. he's only one of my secondaries so whatev.

Anyway, Ike+ is crazy fun. Definitely be playing moar of him than I do in vBrawl. XD

 

[Revven]

Viquey, I don't believe we have any control over how many times it can be done in the air before he lands on the ground or even any control over "ground refresh". Which if we did, I'm sure we would have done that instead of the no fall special on the swing instead. It's just ridiculous for Ike to be able to go under the stage to the other edge and so on. Basically, doing Side B in the way that would make Ikes super happy isn't going to happen.

 

[Viquey]

Well, half the cast can go under stages, you know. And it's really only "ridiculous" if it's FD, and even then not too much so. Going under, say, SV isn't very impressive at all.

But why wouldn't that be possible? Thinking about it, several characters have that same mechanic (though many get the move back if they're hit). A little time, patience, research, and cross-referencing, and we've isolated the codes for it and could apply them elsewhere. PSA FTW.

In fact... i'll start looking into it now.

 

[metaXzero]

No helpless after Side-B wouldn't be broken, but I personally don't like the thought of Ike flying through the air with constant Side-Bs. That's a BIG change to his playstyle.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

No helpless after Side-B wouldn't be broken, but I personally don't like the thought of Ike flying through the air with constant Side-Bs. That's a BIG change to his playstyle.

That would help him good.
Seriously, it does in BBrawl. And he still seems to be underpowered in terms of options.

Never mind, it was already argued on about. I won't add oil to the fire.

 

[BG3]

Characters can already go under stages, many of them can. It's not that ridiculous if you can traverse under Battlefield or Smashville TBH. Many characters can already do it, some can even go under FD! Melee had a half decent way of balancing recoveries, but Brawl just completely breaks it if you're comparing characters like MK and Ganon. Some of these recoveries were even kept in Brawl+, keeping the incredible height they gain from it.

I understand that you guys at least tried to fix Ike's recovery, but as it stands right now, any character that can gimp(which MANY of them can)punishes Ike way too easily for his mediocre recovery. Just try and test out this change, against the likes of MK. Sure, it won't completely erase his problem, but it at least helps him a lot more than before.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I'm a little late, but my friend (who mains Ike) and I were playing around with him yesterday.

Ike's recovery really isn't as bad as it's made out to be. Ganon's side-b gains less horizontal distance than Ike's uncharged side-b, and their up-b's are pretty comparable in height (though Ganon's is more punishable and Ike's is insta-death if you miss the ledge).

I'm against unlimited up-b but I wouldn't be entirely against testing (key word) no helpless on side-b, but only being able to use it once. I dunno, Ike isn't exactly light so it's kinda hard to get him off stage in the first place.

If you're gonna buff anything, I'd prefer a grab range buff instead of a recovery buff.

 

[WheelOfFish]

This thread is dead.

Though I've been playing as Ike a lot lately (I've been cycling through characters trying to find a new main for how long now? Dunno, but Ike is a LOT of fun). Obviously his ground game is pretty slow, but his aerials are amazing. Aether edgeguarding is awesome too... with a little prediction on their recovery, you can spike them and edgehog.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Am I the only one who feels that Ike could benefit from a slightly higher double jump?

 

[BG3]

Am I the only one who feels that Ike could benefit from a slightly higher double jump?

You and many others. Basically, he needs a better recovery, it's just too limited right now.

 

[TL?]

Ike got some nice improvements on the new 5.0. His uthrow has been improved and ussually will lead into an uair bair or fair. His ftilit has also been reworked and is now a useful part of his game.

 

[BG3]

A better f-tilt for Ike? Interesting........

Perhaps if his ground game gets decently buffed(which seems to be the case with the 5.0 build), then this recovery problem is something to deal with.

 

[payasofobia]

Yes, his ground game should definetly get buffed.

Only good thing about it its the jabs.

 

[Swordplay]

In my opinion, jabbing STILL overshadows almost all of Ike's ground options including the new buffs.

Mostly this is because jabbing still leads to ALMOST everything.

Imagine if they buffed Ikes jab like Links with faster IASA. Can you taste Jab>Jab>f-tilt?.
How about improving a throw so that Jab>Jab>grab>uair is a true combo????
If this were ever done, I'm sure people would have screamed BROKEN instead of "Ike is in the bottom 5 of this game"

Jabbing is so important to Ike that I would try to resolve his metagame around that rather than focus on other types of buffs he currently has. And in the future, ALL ike buffs should either A. Help his recovery so he can live longer and jab more per stock OR B. improve the jab game by improving jab follow ups and setups Thats how Ike should play.

Don't believe me???? Play Link. Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>****. HOWEVER if you remember correctly Ike was one of the best jab cancelers in the game in VB. Link and a few others may have been close seconds. But Ike featured it more in VB and B+ up till 5.0 RC1. Don't know why this was not the focus when Ike was analyzed. Honestly, you must be blind to not see this.

I'll tell you what pisses me off the most though. ...ME... Because I failed to bring this point up earlier. In that aspect. I should have brought this up for discussion earlier instead of now. I have failed you and I am sorry


/END BUFF/NERF ANALYSIS ON ASSUMPTION THAT RC1 IS THE FINAL BUILD.

I'll leave on 1 last note. To me Ike seems to have 2 MAJOR buffs that are helping him. I want to analyze what was given to him instead of hypothetical what ifs like I did before.

The first is F-tilt. WHY??? Because the thing just ***** now. Its just that much better.

The second is the new U-throw IASA. THIS IS AMAZING His U-throw is now a legitimate chase tool (especially since Uair can outlast air dodges if timed right) On a few characters, it might even be guaranteed follow ups but I need somebody with really good DI to test that.. Not to mention you can sometimes mind game a grab out of a jab.....then U-throw......OMG. That said. If Ike had that 1 more thing such as a better recovery or an increased grab range /IASA on jab to make this slightly more viable, he might be one of the best in this game.

/END ALL OF MY RANT

 

[TL?]

In my opinion, jabbing STILL overshadows almost all of Ike's ground options including the new buffs.

Mostly this is because jabbing still leads to ALMOST everything.

Imagine if they buffed Ikes jab like Links with faster IASA. Can you taste Jab>Jab>f-tilt?.
How about improving a throw so that Jab>Jab>grab>uair is a true combo????
If this were ever done, I'm sure people would have screamed BROKEN instead of "Ike is in the bottom 5 of this game"

Jabbing is so important to Ike that I would try to resolve his metagame around that rather than focus on other types of buffs he currently has. And in the future, ALL ike buffs should either A. Help his recovery so he can live longer and jab more per stock OR B. improve the jab game by improving jab follow ups and setups Thats how Ike should play.

Don't believe me???? Play Link. Jab>Jab>Grab>Dthrow>****. HOWEVER if you remember correctly Ike was one of the best jab cancelers in the game in VB. Link and a few others may have been close seconds. But Ike featured it more in VB and B+ up till 5.0 RC1. Don't know why this was not the focus when Ike was analyzed. Honestly, you must be blind to not see this.

I'll tell you what pisses me off the most though. ...ME... Because I failed to bring this point up earlier. In that aspect. I should have brought this up for discussion earlier instead of now. I have failed you and I am sorry


/END BUFF/NERF ANALYSIS ON ASSUMPTION THAT RC1 IS THE FINAL BUILD.

I'll leave on 1 last note. To me Ike seems to have 2 MAJOR buffs that are helping him. I want to analyze what was given to him instead of hypothetical what ifs like I did before.

The first is F-tilt. WHY??? Because the thing just ***** now. Its just that much better.

The second is the new U-throw IASA. THIS IS AMAZING His U-throw is now a legitimate chase tool (especially since Uair can outlast air dodges if timed right) On a few characters, it might even be guaranteed follow ups but I need somebody with really good DI to test that.. Not to mention you can sometimes mind game a grab out of a jab.....then U-throw......OMG. That said. If Ike had that 1 more thing such as a better recovery or an increased grab range /IASA on jab to make this slightly more viable, he might be one of the best in this game.

/END ALL OF MY RANT

I think what the people in charge of Brawl+ are aiming for is giving characters more options and versatility. It's not very good to have Ike completely centered around his jab combo. A character with one option is very predictable. So, I would have to disagree with buffing the jab combo.

Back on topic, It seems to me that Ike can uthrow to fsmash on captain falcon on certain %s. I haven't tested this with good DI though.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I think what the people in charge of Brawl+ are aiming for is giving characters more options and versatility. It's not very good to have Ike completely centered around his jab combo. A character with one option is very predictable. So, I would have to disagree with buffing the jab combo.

Back on topic, It seems to me that Ike can uthrow to fsmash on captain falcon on certain %s. I haven't tested this with good DI though.

I agree with you.
Buffing only a certain portion of his fighting abilities ain't really good. Because it gets predictable and some other characters could have better games overall.

 

[Swordplay]

I agree tha versitility is good but Ikes jab was very versitile. He had a lot of jab canceling options and if this versitility out of jabs were improved, Ikes game becomes SO much better.

Uthrow is one of these. If you haven't noticed, this buff *****. It might be my new favorite move. I think I even like it more than F-tilt. My view is just a diffrent perspective on Ike and its 100% okay if people disagree with me.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ike's super ****ing legit. Expect vids and a possible combo video tomorrow or this weekend over my fall break

 

[LordofIke]

Hey im looking for some practice too i use ike almost all the time if you want to fight me i will be more than happy to fight you i will post my wii number and friend code later.

My Style can be summed up like this
ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember My Name
Ike Rulez

 

[Mattnumbers]

Ike is fun, Fair is ridiculous.

Also, SideB is so fun now with it's low lag. You can kinda just throw it out to surprise them every now and then as it is hard to punish.

Also the red Ike texture (I forgot what it's called) looks sick. I use it and I'm pretty sure Silven uses it as well.

 

[BG3]

Hey im looking for some practice too i use ike almost all the time if you want to fight me i will be more than happy to fight you i will post my wii number and friend code later.

My Style can be summed up like this
ten percent luck, twenty percent skill
Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain
And a hundred percent reason to remember My Name
Ike Rulez

Fort Minor
M. Shinoda
Styles of Beyond
Ryu
Thakbir

And yeah, his Fair is awesome.

 

[Rayku]

I enjoy D-air to Fsmash combo

 

[WheelOfFish]

Up-throw is amazing.

 

[KOkingpin]

Up-throw is amazing.

its amazing in the fact that it needs more KBG like a lot of Up Throws need.

Also, Fair needs more landing Lag. A tool that spaces like that should not have Zero (almost) lag.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ike's Up-throw won't combo on many characters (cept fast fallers) after 50-60%. You can air dodge past his attack just in time. It won't combo at any killing percentage on any characters.

His F-air is a little nuts I'll agree but he lacks any real solid approach moves besides maybe Dash Cancelled jabs. It's just something a little silly about his characters thats annoying to fight, hardly overpowering though.

 

[KOkingpin]

Ike's Up-throw won't combo on many characters (cept fast fallers) after 50-60%. You can air dodge past his attack just in time. It won't combo at any killing percentage on any characters.

His F-air is a little nuts I'll agree but he lacks any real solid approach moves besides maybe Dash Cancelled jabs. It's just something a little silly about his characters thats annoying to fight, hardly overpowering though.

1.) im gonna disagree but I want to make sure at the same time. every time I see someone or am playing against someone using Ike Up Throw leads into Fair at pretty high percentages. Sometimes killing percentages vs Fast Fallers

2.) Right now I say his Fair needs to be kind of punishable if you don't space it right. It doesnt have to be overbearing. Its got exceptional range. Right now he can Fair Samus' shield and just jab her when she up-b's out of shield. They Clank, Ike keeps jabbing and Samus take like 15% or however much Ike's 3 hit jab does. Thats just one example. It is so good at spacing why does it have to be Ridiculous in all aspects (fairly quick, amazing spacing, Huge hitbox with Huge reverse hitbox, and No lag/Jabbing out of it is faster than any shield grab.)

 

[ThatGuy]

Well, every projectile goes through it because it has transcendant priority .

 

[goodoldganon]

My testing for Ike's Upthrow (and all of them for that matter) was against level 9 evading computers in training mode and seeing if a combo hit registered. Then I tried against a human with a load of different DI options. You only get 4-5 frames out of hitstun, but they were still there. Either way, I have noted these up throws for possible revision down the road. As for now all I can is that it is noted and you'll just have to learn to fight it.

 

[KOkingpin]

My testing for Ike's Upthrow (and all of them for that matter) was against level 9 evading computers in training mode and seeing if a combo hit registered. Then I tried against a human with a load of different DI options. You only get 4-5 frames out of hitstun, but they were still there. Either way, I have noted these up throws for possible revision down the road. As for now all I can is that it is noted and you'll just have to learn to fight it.

Don't forget in training mode you can't set a buffer so you are at 0. I dunno if you realized that or if you just do it perfectly without buffer.

I dont wanna sound noobish cause I def not but No one is frame perfect. No one. not Dashizwiz, not M2K, Not Ally, Not SilentWolf, Not Mango. 4-5 frames is Pretty **** close to frame perfect. I did the training mode vs a computer on evade and It would be closer to hitting if I had Buffer. Not sure if It would hit.

with that being said I don't really find Ike as a problem character but I don't want to make newcomers to the game hate it because of dumb **** like A lagless Ike forward air or Stupid up throw combos that work on anyone who isnt frame perfect.

 

[Revven]

Well, Ike's Uthrow hasn't had any sort of growth change so it wasn't something we did. The only change it has had is the IASA is earlier, which its intention was to allow him a chance (note a chance, not a guaranteed combo on every character) to get a Uair off of it. Perhaps it needs a second look at.

 

[goodoldganon]

Well, Ike's Uthrow hasn't had any sort of growth change so it wasn't something we did. The only change it has had is the IASA is earlier, which its intention was to allow him a chance (note a chance, not a guaranteed combo on every character) to get a Uair off of it. Perhaps it needs a second look at.

Sounds like we should double check all the U-throw changes

 

[KOkingpin]

thanks guys I really appreciate you listening to the complaints of our whole community.

 

[Rykoshet]

Ike's fair is pretty much the only relatively safe approach option he really has aside from jabs and they mostly get used as followups to shielded approaches because he otherwise has no shield pressure to speak of except jab and grab, which is pretty universal anyway. Nerf it and the character's pretty overall worthless.

 

[ThatGuy]

Ike's SideB is also an extremely reliable approach tool, and I can't understand why it's not being considered in this discussion. It has very quick startup speed (which can be controlled fully) and covers a large distance, has zero lag time if whiffed and may be followed up with anything, and is safe on shield on the majority of the cast! It's fantastic when trying to cover people coming down from the air.

 

[Rykoshet]

If the startup wasnt changed, it takes 29 frames for it to go off uncharged, that's far from "quick".

 

[Rayku]

its amazing in the fact that it needs more KBG like a lot of Up Throws need.

Also, Fair needs more landing Lag. A tool that spaces like that should not have Zero (almost) lag.

Ganondorf. That is -all- I am saying to this statement.

 

[ThatGuy]

I am very sure it's a lot less than 29 frames, lol.