Ike+

[Wavedash Master]

I am very sure it's a lot less than 29 frames, lol.

Quick Draw Updated

Charge: 18
Ping!: 60 Note: Charged to full.

~Uncharged~
Hit(from release): 2-12 (19-29 Total)
End(from release): 40 (58 Total)
IASA(from release): 26 (42 Total)

Taken from this thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202837

He's not exactly correct, but it hits in between frames 19-29. Still pretty slow not even considering the distance you travel before you hit your enemy.

 

[Rykoshet]

I am very sure it's a lot less than 29 frames, lol.

If only the ending lag was reduced, it takes 29 frames to start up and travel, completely uncharged. What you're "very sure of" by eyeballing doesnt change the numbers. The move gains priority the more damage it does (aka the longer it's charged) so while it's not as punishable on block it's far from a reliable approach.

 

[ThatGuy]

I stand corrected on the frames. So what? With the speed it travels at it can punish a healthy amount of moves on reflex from a good distance. It's apparently good enough to outprioritize and outrange a lot of aerials. Seriously, it's a fantastic move.

I would also count Dair as a viable approach; although it's a bit harder to work with, it has some good pushback on block and has a large and extended hitbox, and it's good enough if a different angle is needed.

 

[Rykoshet]

I stand corrected on the frames. So what? With the speed it travels at it can punish a healthy amount of moves on reflex from a good distance.

A healthy amount of moves, in plus, have 29 frames where theyre open? The only character I can think of that has a lot of moves that ike can punish with QD is... ike...

 

[ThatGuy]

Cripes you're stubborn, although my word choice was poor. Aerials last a long time, but I suppose that's not valid enough for you? I really don't want to go through the library of sex kicks you can smack with this.

In any case, I don't feel I'll get anywhere with this, so I'll be content spamming my Side Bs while you argue about how Ike has no viable approach but Fair.

 

[Rykoshet]

Most aerials can respond to and stuff quick draw on reaction (meaning you see the move start, jump toward or away as necessary and throw an aerial to where you know ike is going to be. If you throw the move out and he continues to charge it just double jump away) Ike's fsmash hits on frame 29, just as a point of comparison. Hell if one ike starts QD and the second ike just retreating fairs, there's a decent chance the fair is going to win. Spam side B as an approach all you want, most people don't understand that the move is punishable on travel as opposed to on ending animation, if you get away with it more power to you but that move is never safe to use.

 

[KOkingpin]

The Problem with Ike's fair is that Its Safe to Everything In shield and Its an incredible spacing tool as well. Spacing it right and not getting punished is one thing but as it stand you can just throw it out there. You hit their Shield and then proceed to hold the A button. Bingo you just got 16% damage if they try to do ANYTHING from shield.

 

[Rykoshet]

The Problem with Ike's fair is that Its Safe to Everything In shield

Ness's Bair
Marth's Fair
Meta Knight's Dair
Various moves every other character has that give frame advantage on block.

If the problem is you cant attack ike from fair to first jab (considering it takes 19 frames to even create a hitbox, you can just spot dodge the thing on reaction) then don't attack him from fair to first jab (crazy, I know), block the jab and grab him. Dodge the jab string. I dont know, throw something at him when he jumps. You know, the very same things people do to ike's fair all day long. The move is slow, his lack of actual mobility means you know he's gotta commit to a direction when he uses it except on full hop, and you know his only really viable response assuming you block it is a move that all you have to do to get a proper response is continue holding the shield you already put up and punish the low block stun jab instead of the higher blockstun fair.

 

[KOkingpin]

Ness's Bair
Marth's Fair
Meta Knight's Dair
Various moves every other character has that give frame advantage on block.

If the problem is you cant attack ike from fair to first jab (considering it takes 19 frames to even create a hitbox, you can just spot dodge the thing on reaction) then don't attack him from fair to first jab (crazy, I know), block the jab and grab him. Dodge the jab string. I dont know, throw something at him when he jumps. You know, the very same things people do to ike's fair all day long. The move is slow, his lack of actual mobility means you know he's gotta commit to a direction when he uses it except on full hop, and you know his only really viable response assuming you block it is a move that all you have to do to get a proper response is continue holding the shield you already put up and punish the low block stun jab instead of the higher blockstun fair.

Actually if you just shield first Marth Fair you can punish normally. Ness' back has maybe 1/5 the range of Ike's fair and MK's Dair relatively the same as Ness' bair except its coming from above which can be punished if blocked. Not every character can punish these, But atleast some can (people with good Up-B's from shield). What happens with Ike is that He does not have to space his Spacing move correctly then Jabs (btw he only has to Hold the A button for EZ mode and It clanks with Samus Up-B and Bowser Up-B) once if you happen to block first jab and stops. You are back to a neutral state where Ike can just Spam a lag free spacing tool intelligently. Im not saying Ike is broken or anything because he is far from it.

 

[Rayku]

Actually if you just shield first Marth Fair you can punish normally. Ness' back has maybe 1/5 the range of Ike's fair and MK's Dair relatively the same as Ness' bair except its coming from above which can be punished if blocked. Not every character can punish these, But atleast some can (people with good Up-B's from shield).

If you shield Marth's F-air with Ike, there is virtually nothing you can do to punish because all of Ike's moves come out too slow. Therefore, Marth and his lack of any form of landing lag on F-air can punish you before you can do anything

Ness's B-air MIGHT be punishable because I think Ike's B-air comes out beforehand, but don't quote me on that. Also, even if that were the case, Ike would have to be facing the opposite direction on block

Metaknight's D-air has such low cooldown in the air that Ike cannot do anything at ALL to punish him, especially because Metaknight can jump and do any of his other attacks before Ike can barely even leave the ground. It can not be punished if blocked. That is a false statement.

 

[ThatGuy]

Hey, I have some issues trying to make my way through real heavy projectile camping. For example, I played a tink last night and it was a chore just trying to get through the toys. Any ideas?

 

[KOkingpin]

Hey, I have some issues trying to make my way through real heavy projectile camping. For example, I played a tink last night and it was a chore just trying to get through the toys. Any ideas?

spam fair and Jab more. dont play on FD.

 

[CountKaiser]

Just a note on ness bair

DJCFF bair has up to +9 frame advantage on block. Enough for a grab if done right.

This is also assuming the Ike decides to block and not preemptively strike. Ike's bair might be faster then ness's DJCFF bair, but he'd have to be facing away from the ness.

 

[ThatGuy]

spam fair and Jab more. dont play on FD.

Erm...his sword has transcendant priority now, so it's not necessarily the greatest tool for stopping projectiles O.o

 

[KOkingpin]

Erm...his sword has transcendant priority now, so it's not necessarily the greatest tool for stopping projectiles O.o

lol sorry i was being sarcastic. But really Just jump over projectiles and Spam Fair a lot. Its an amazing move with amazing range. and if they shield you can just jab them. If they act before Jab combo is done its a free 16-17%

 

[Rykoshet]

You can just jab most projectiles.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Jab arrows
Jab rangs
catch bombs -> Dacit -> ??? -> Profit....?

 

[RPGsFTW]

Erm...his sword has transcendant priority now

When did Ike's sword get transcendent priority? I thought it was just on (most of) Meta Knight's attacks, and maybe Ness' Fair? Anyone else have it that I don't know of? =P

 

[JCaesar]

Zelda's smashes, a bunch of projectiles and I'm sure a few other things.

 

[ThatGuy]

Zelda's smashes, a bunch of projectiles and I'm sure a few other things.

What projectiles that didn't have TP before have it now?

 

[JCaesar]

None as far as I know...

 

[GameSystem]

Din's Fire is going to get it.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Din's Fire is going to get it.

o___O

That is a horrible idea. Din's Fire SHOULD clank with aerials.

 

[ThatGuy]

Din's Fire is going to get it.

Nononononno please no!

 

[ThatGuy]

Blabla bump.

Anyone have some consistent funky combos I can try out?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Blabla bump.

Anyone have some consistent funky combos I can try out?

Dair->f-smash/uair is always a fun one. And of course little combos like nair->fair or jab cancels into stuff. Ike is more of a string character though (just trapping them in bad situations to land hits pretty much no matter what they do). NADT helps me get some hilarious uair and up B strings against come characters

 

[ThatGuy]

What in the world is NADT?

 

[Rudra]

No Airdodge During Tumble. After hitstun ends, you enter tumble, and with NADT, you cant AD out of it without wiggling (moving your control stick once to fall normally)

 

[Dark Sonic]

Basically, to get out of your string they have to have a good idea of where the hitstun ends, time a wiggle out, and THEN airdodge. So more often than not you're gonna get away with "combos" that have small escape windows because the opponent wasn't quite sure of when to try to get out (also note that it removes the ability to buffer airdodges right out of hitstun.)

Though as Ike it's also boned me a couple times, since he has A LOT of trouble getting down already, and this is just another thing making it harder for him <_<

 

[ThatGuy]

Anyone have experience against ZSS or MK?

 

[ThatGuy]

Some great discussion in this thread. :/

I know we're not supposed to talk about buffs, but I thought of a way to improve Ike's recovery game a bit, however I have no idea if this would be considered 'unfair'. What if there was a way to make Ike's neutral B stall in the air on the first try (and Ike plummets every subsequent try)? Benefits for this would be to avoid getting edgehogged and tethered as easily, and you could do a turnaround neutral B, then double jump backwards towards the stage and use a B reversal forward B, which would give you more horizontal momentum than simply drifting over.

I also see edgeguarding possibilities for this, but they're pretty much limited to making life a living hell for anyone recovering LOL. Maybe the move's hitbox could be reduced as a trade off.

 

[Alphatron]

If you want to improve his recovery, just do what Bbrawl did.

Ike discussion is nowhere near as bad as Kirby discussion.

 

[ThatGuy]

If you want to improve his recovery, just do what Bbrawl did.

Ike discussion is nowhere near as bad as Kirby discussion.

It's already been stated, many many times, that they won't remove freefall from Ike's SideB. I'd love it and have argued a lot to get it but if they say no I'm not going to waste my time.

I feel this suggestion is a bit more toned down and easily implementable.

 

[Deleted member]

Blabla bump.

Anyone have some consistent funky combos I can try out?

At low percentages like 0-20, grab + pummel, d throw, utilt. Can set up for another aerial (sometimes another grab) and is better positioning than shffl uair from under a platform as it forces tech chases. Following techs with side b is nice as it sets up for uair or another platform to camp under.

I mix up approaches into nice combos with quick adaptation and reflexes. Jab cancels, dtilt, fairs, bairs, nairs, dash attack start and can follow with a weak side b if presented with a good opportunity, and the side b into a grab, utilt, uair or usmash depending on a good opportunity.

Tips on any quick GFTO moves? I see nair and dair good out of powershields as it starts a combo.
If my opponent doesnt expect it, i try dsmash and utilt to mess with them when theyre inside my spacing.

Ike+ is so fun =p

 

[kyubikirby]

At low percentages like 0-20, grab + pummel, d throw, utilt. Can set up for another aerial (sometimes another grab) and is better positioning than shffl uair from under a platform as it forces tech chases. Following techs with side b is nice as it sets up for uair or another platform to camp under.

I mix up approaches into nice combos with quick adaptation and reflexes. Jab cancels, dtilt, fairs, bairs, nairs, dash attack start and can follow with a weak side b if presented with a good opportunity, and the side b into a grab, utilt, uair or usmash depending on a good opportunity.

Tips on any quick GFTO moves? I see nair and dair good out of powershields as it starts a combo.
If my opponent doesnt expect it, i try dsmash and utilt to mess with them when theyre inside my spacing.

Ike+ is so fun =p

My Ike+ experience is limited as I have read nothing as in how to play him, and just play whats comfortable for me. Nair and Dair are good if the opponent stays very close to you, but if you're playing against someone with more range (D3 or Charizard) you might also try a Fair or retreating Fair. Or if they go behind you alot, a Bair can do wonders (unless they are small and can get out of the way in a hurry like pika)

 

[ThatGuy]

Tips on any quick GFTO moves? I see nair and dair good out of powershields as it starts a combo.
If my opponent doesnt expect it, i try dsmash and utilt to mess with them when theyre inside my spacing.

There isn't much in terms of GTFO moves that beat the jab. Use and abuse it when they get in your face, and most of the time you can link a grab out of it. The beauty of Ike is that they rarely ever get inside your range anyways .

However, I suggest Utilt a lot when dealing with annoying aerials. It's one of the few moves not affected by transcendant priority, so people won't literally cut through that attack like our aerials. Very handy move to deal with characters like Jiggz, Wario, Squirtle, etc.

Nair and Dair should never connect out of a powershielded aerial (people just recover too fast, and shieldstun is insane), but if you can connect it then it's probably the best idea.

 

[Deleted member]

There isn't much in terms of GTFO moves that beat the jab. Use and abuse it when they get in your face, and most of the time you can link a grab out of it. The beauty of Ike is that they rarely ever get inside your range anyways .

However, I suggest Utilt a lot when dealing with annoying aerials. It's one of the few moves not affected by transcendant priority, so people won't literally cut through that attack like our aerials. Very handy move to deal with characters like Jiggz, Wario, Squirtle, etc.

Nair and Dair should never connect out of a powershielded aerial (people just recover too fast, and shieldstun is insane), but if you can connect it then it's probably the best idea.

I also find the jab cancel grab insanely useful when in front of you and inside your spacing. However, when in my spacing and behind me, is when they seem to have an advantage. Bair is fast but if shielded or if a small character is behind me, the options are more limited.
Im thinking though for behind an Ike a retreating bair into side b towards opponent (to punish them if they shielded or went for grab after shielding) followed by jab attack after side b seems solid.

And for the nair/dair outta power shield, i use it rarely to mix up tactics and confuse opponent. Most of the time i use it, it works though. Probably wont have a higher success rate out of friendly matches.

Im really liking platformed stages with Ike. Techchasing them from under platforms with bair/uair rocks.

 

[Rayku]

That's because Ike has amazing platform pressure.

He's not tourney viable because Ganondorf overshadows him in every aspect :D

 

[Deleted member]

I think ike could become a viable character if they sped up nair and dsmash and compensated with lower BKB. Good GFTO utility and mb combo off the nair or tech chase off a weakened dsmash. Then improve his recovery.

Also maybe a change to his down b counter. Delayed is awful. Change BKB angle or something for an instant counter speed like marth's. Could be that his counter causes enemies to go be hit straight up to play with his nice platform and uair game.

I feel like something could be done with his ftilt though.

 

[Rudra]

^I dont know about Nair/DSmash, but Counter is fine imo.
It may not activate as quickly as Marth's, but it lasts a bit longer than it would initially appear to. It can be a pretty deceptive move.