Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Nidtendofreak]

True, I never said he can't be a nightmare, but thats the only area where he's really a nightmare however. Underestimated it a bit in my last post admittedly. But yes, save it for when we get to him.

 

[YagamiLight]

You just do what you're doing right now Light; whatever it is, it's great

And yeah, Ike is a very balanced character if I do say so myself, sure he has some disadvantages, none of them will ever be more difficult than 75-25 when pushing it to the limits(this is good). And just for my knowledge, who does Ike have the best advantage over?

So yeah, good to hear that you have enough data to give us a detailed paragraph on R.O.B.. Any ideas on who we're going to do next?

I don't think any of them are above 70-30 actually, and that's only one or two characters (And even that is debatable!). Ike's main issue is that he has the best advantages near the second half of the tier list, and he has mainly neutralish matches up top (With some exceptions, of course). The character that he has the greatest advantage over is probably...hm...Ganondorf or Jigglypuff. Ike does really terrible things to Ganondorf.

And as for the next character, I think I'll try to do either DK, Peach or Sonic. The main thing that matters is: How awesome of a picture can I get for said character?

 

[Ussi]

They all of a lot of pictures Light. I vote Peach, someone i need to learn... if we do DK don't ask the DK boards, they already think its 6-4 in DK's favor, I have amply DK experience too. Sonic.... Sonic needs ALOT of writing since every single Sonic will play differently, Seriously, Sonic is the MOST unpredictable character in the game.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Here's your Sonic Picture for once you get to it. XD

 

[Kinzer]

Oh Peach would be a good place to start, just because she's a woman doesn't mean she can just take the sky and multi-kick you with her heels.

Find something like...

http://content.ytmnd.com/content/e/d/9/ed9bf078f714f24fbb973bba51c78f52.jpg

and we're good to go. *cower in a corner*

Edit: I second Sonic as a character, he has so many AT and playstyles that it would take more than 1 day to completely cover him, and we would defenitely need the assistance of the Smarter Sonic mains to aid us.

I'm telling you man, save Sonic for later.

 

[YagamiLight]

They all of a lot of pictures Light. I vote Peach, someone i need to learn... if we do DK don't ask the DK boards, they already think its 6-4 in DK's favor, I have amply DK experience too. Sonic.... Sonic needs ALOT of writing since every single Sonic will play differently, Seriously, Sonic is the MOST unpredictable character in the game.

6-4 DK's favor?
It's pretty ridiculous of them to think something like that.

And yeah, Sonic is unpredictability incarnate. I might even save him for last as he is going to require a lot of talking. I'll be sure to use the picture posted above when we do actually get to him.

Peach it is then.

http://rainemaster.deviantart.com/art/Princess-Peach-64003374

I really liked that picture, personally.

 

[Ussi]

DK can do some nasty stuff if you're not ready for it, but once you learn it, it becomes even.

For Sonic i recommend getting dNes, Tenki, and Puffball, Whom i all know lol.

Peach I never fought one offline, otherwise I'd say even or so from online experience.

Since it's an air battle, I like it! Ike's aerials are a force to reckon with.

 

[Kinzer]

Is it just my crappy-comp, or is the MK and R.O.B. pic links broken?

 

[YagamiLight]

DK can do some nasty stuff if you're not ready for it, but once you learn it, it becomes even.

For Sonic i recommend getting dNes, Tenki, and Puffball, Whom i all know lol.

Peach I never fought one offline, otherwise I'd say even or so from online experience.

Since it's an air battle, I like it! Ike's aerials are a force to reckon with.

Yeah, my thoughts on DK are the same. He can mess around with you with stuff such as the Cargo Stage Spike, but once you learn how to deal with it it's not a difficult match-up at all.

I too have no offline Peach experience (Brawl Peach, that is) but it seems even to me.

Edit:

Is it just my crappy-comp, or is the MK and R.O.B. pic links broken?

They appear to be working for me. Also, check out the new Wario and D3 pics!

 

[comboking]

i like the picture to Yagami

Rob has the advantage with his projectiles

 

[Kinzer]

I suppose my comp was just failing at the time, I can see them now again.

I noticed that you enlarged Zelda's picture too.

 

[Rykoshet]

I'd like to point out that when we played on FD the second tmie around pride 3 stocked me with practically nothing but choke chaingrabs alone <_<

 

[Wyvern-x]

Most of Yoshi's "good" matchups are stage dependent. >.>

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Yeah, my thoughts on DK are the same. He can mess around with you with stuff such as the Cargo Stage Spike, but once you learn how to deal with it it's not a difficult match-up at all.

Not that I want to go off-topic or anything, but I would assume it's nearly impossible for Ike to recover from a properly executed Cargo Stage Spike. There's also the variant where DK throws you under the stage (shown in video), which would be impossible to recover from with Ike. And DK can edgeguard surprisingly well against Ike. Take a look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Pw7SlUQxRA

 

[Kinzer]

That video looks staged to me for some reason, like that Ike couldn't wait to realise Aether a little bit later and put mroe emphasis on DI to survive, but I dunno. That would require testing.

Also I do not approve of the last segment of that video. That was torture, and I can't help but get that same feeling again that that too is avoidable.

 

[HeroMystic]

You know you can just tech stage spikes right?

 

[Kinzer]

Look at the video Hero, assuming that DK KNOWS you're going to wall tech, a simple technique to do would be just wait a little bit longer before the release...I still think that some recoveries would've been possible even thoguh that video proves otherwise...

 

[YagamiLight]

Most of Yoshi's "good" matchups are stage dependent. >.>

This is so true.

And as for the video, I'm sure Ike would be able to manage for the Ftilt edgeguarding AND that stage toss, but it would require knowledge of the match-up. It did give me a slight "staged" impression.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Look at the video Hero, assuming that DK KNOWS you're going to wall tech, a simple technique to do would be just wait a little bit longer before the release...I still think that some recoveries would've been possible even thoguh that video proves otherwise...

The only one that was debatable was Snake's, though a good DK would arguably attempt to D-air any potential recoveries. I'm sure the technique wouldn't work on anyone with multiple jumps or a wonder recovery like Pit or R.O.B.

 

[Kinzer]

It wouldn't even work with Snake!

I'm going to assume that instinctively the Snake of course wanted to go for the ledge, however Snake had his double-jump and his C4(Cypher...what's his Over-B called again?), what was stopping him from going for the other side?

 

[XACE-K]

i like the picture to Yagami

Rob has the advantage with his projectiles

Wow, that will surely help. According to this logic, anybody with a projectile > Ikes.

 

[YagamiLight]

Wow, that will surely help. According to this logic, anybody with a projectile > Ikes.

Mewtwo>Ike

Jokes aside, I'll have this up either late today or tomorrow. School work comes before smash, unfortunately.

 

[Ussi]

if Projectiles and speed meant everything:

Ike would be the 2nd worst character.

 

[HeroMystic]

And Toon Link and Link would be top tier.

 

[Ussi]

Well We have MK and Snake up there, MK has speed and Snake has projectiles...

 

[Guilhe]

Sorry but that Ike matchup guide is too biased. You’ve just told of Ike’s good side, and didn’t even mention how some matchups can screw with him. Think that there are other character’s players reading that and point out our main weaknesses please.

 

[Ussi]

I would really give Ike's recovery a 2 stars >_> Compared to the rest of the cast, yea that's expected.

I think you should also include weight in the stats.

 

[HeroMystic]

I see this trend where one person says something negative then another person has to add on, but eh.

It's not so much biased as it is from an optimistic perspective, but I do see what you're saying Guilhe. Seems so late to call out on the bias though.

 

[Kinzer]

Eh, better late than never, I suppose Heavy weight, laggy attacks, poor recovery, and projectiless out to cover the nagetives of Ike...

 

[HeroMystic]

Heavy Weight is not a complete negative. More like a mixed bag. It keeps him on the stage for a very long time, but makes subjected to air combos.

It's more positive than negative however, especially with the poor recovery in mind.

 

[YagamiLight]

Yeah, the lack of Ike negatives will be fixed soon enough.

As for weight, I don't think that having Bowser weight is actually that good, as you have to keep in mind Bowser's size as well. It's too conflicting to have a real star rating.

And as for Ike being 3 or 2 stars of recovery, it's pretty much an average recovery, so I just went ahead and gave it 3 stars since it's actually decent.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

And you can factor in air speed and falling speed as well. Ike is right in the middle as far as these two factors are considered, so he does have a better chance of making it make than the fast-fallers with similar recovery options (Link and Falco for example).

 

[HeroMystic]

Falco has better recovery then Ike due to his side-B not sucking. Up-B not so much, but Side-B is pretty risky to gimp due to the spike...

 

[YagamiLight]

Falco has better recovery then Ike due to his side-B not sucking. Up-B not so much, but Side-B is pretty risky to gimp due to the spike...

Falco quite certainly has a worse recovery than Ike does. The fact that it has a small spike linked to it doesn't really mean that you can't be swatted out at the end of it in addition to his huge fall speed. Falco's Up B is a pretty funny joke of a recovery, so I won't count that.

 

[HeroMystic]

Falco quite certainly has a worse recovery than Ike does. The fact that it has a small spike linked to it doesn't really mean that you can't be swatted out at the end of it in addition to his huge fall speed. Falco's Up B is a pretty funny joke of a recovery, so I won't count that.

Keep in mind that you said at the end of it, which means that, even though there's considerable lag that gives you enough time to beat his face in, he's already on the stage. Not to mention, unlike Quick Draw, he can actually -hit- you with the Side-B and not get punished for it. Also, he can cancel the Side-B for mindgame tactics.

Sounds better to me. Yeah, his Up-B is pure crap, but so is our Quick Draw.

 

[YagamiLight]

Keep in mind that you said at the end of it, which means that, even though there's considerable lag that gives you enough time to beat his face in, he's already on the stage. Not to mention, unlike Quick Draw, he can actually -hit- you with the Side-B and not get punished for it. Also, he can cancel the Side-B for mindgame tactics.

Sounds better to me. Yeah, his Up-B is pure crap, but so is our Quick Draw.

It's hard to imagine considering it better than Ike's recovery. For one, you can be hit out of it during any time of his forward movement and be punished for the very bad lag at the end. And Ike can hit you with Quick Draw, then if he's close enough he grabs the edge, I'm sure that's happened to you. And canceling Falco's side B is a poor choice, it needs tight timings and isn't that useful at all. And as for Fire Bird versus Quick Draw, Quick Draw is at least fast, which is more than I can say for Falco's up B.

 

[Kinzer]

Actually, cancelling the Phantasm can serve some purposes.

Say for example you just happen to be some n00b Flaco (Yes, Flaco.) that you notice you happened to do the Phantasm in the wrong direction, and you realize you're going to fall off the stage. Cancel the Phantasm and you won't go very far forward, thus saving yourself.

 

[YagamiLight]

Actually, cancelling the Phantasm can serve some purposes.

Say for example you just happen to be some n00b Flaco (Yes, Flaco.) that you notice you happened to do the Phantasm in the wrong direction, and you realize you're going to fall off the stage. Cancel the Phantasm and you won't go very far forward, thus saving yourself.

If you're that terrible so as to manage to Phantasm off the stage, you're probably going to miss the timing for the Phantasm Cancel anyways

 

[Kinzer]

Well that was the first example that came to my head, of course there are better uses for Cancelled-Phantasm, I am just too lazy to come up with them at the moment.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's hard to imagine considering it better than Ike's recovery. For one, you can be hit out of it during any time of his forward movement and be punished for the very bad lag at the end. And Ike can hit you with Quick Draw, then if he's close enough he grabs the edge, I'm sure that's happened to you. And canceling Falco's side B is a poor choice, it needs tight timings and isn't that useful at all. And as for Fire Bird versus Quick Draw, Quick Draw is at least fast, which is more than I can say for Falco's up B.

It's not better because of the move itself, it's better because it makes Falco harder to gimp in general. Ike has to be close when using Aether. Falco can be pretty far and still use Phantasm, and he can get to the stage/ledge pretty easily.

and Phantasm Canceling actually serves a good purpose. Yeah the timing is strict, but not strict at all at the end. Phantasm Canceling actually gives Falco much better horizontal movement if you cancel it at the end, essentially making it harder to punish the ending lag. I've never seen a Falco cancel it at the very beginning though, so I can't answer to that.

I only use QD for recovery once in a blue moon to catch my opponent off guard, or if it is truly the only way I'm gonna get back on that stage. And yeah, you can hit with QD and grab the ledge (it's happened more than just a few times), but what's stopping them from simply airdodging then punishing (cause QD missed the hit...) or out-prioritzing it with an aerial cause it's so obvious?

Spoiler

If you wanna continue the discussion more, PM me on it. We shouldn't flood the thread with off-topic debate