If/When Hacking Melee becomes completely possible

[RaynEX]

Mewtwo should have disjointed hitboxes on his tilts. His confusion should have less lag. Does his disable have set knockback? If it does, it shouldn't. Mewtwo's bair should hit like Mario's or something. It should be a solid tail swing hit rather than a fleshwound. fsmash needs a buff, shadowball should come out a bit faster so it can be comboed off fairs, tipped utilts etc.

 

[Stevo]

hey guys im back from my (canadian)thanksgiving weekend and I havnt read all posts yet, but I just want to remind everyone that I dont think this would be a balanced melee (although it would be slightly MORE balanced).

Part of the reason melee is so great is it isnt balanced. My thought on this would be simply to open up different strategies for some of the lower tiered characters, and some small buffs to characters that were over-nerfed from 64, or just do not function as well as they were inteded in melee.

I, for one, would never play a melee that has fox equally as good as a Pichu, and I am completely against any sort of nerfing of any character whatsoever. (except MAYBE wobbling..... maybe...)

Buffing bad characters by removing a couple things that hold them back would just be interesting and fun to see how they would do.


I am still only partly convinced melee should head this direction at all.

 

[Oracle]

So you're arbitrarily against changing the game simply because its perfect the way it is and it would suck if there were more options? That doesn't make a lot of sense

 

[ScoobyCafe]

You can't just give them ridiculous offense and then hope their natural weaknesses hold them back. You have to fix their horrible qualities first to make them playable and then work your way up.

I agree with this.

Also, we need to be a little more systematic here, i.e. focus on one tier or character in that tier and work our way up. Ideas are popping up quickly now, and it's kinda getting cluster****ed at the moment--for me, anyway.

So let's start with the bottom tier.

-
Bottom
Ness
Yoshi
Bowser
Mewtwo
Kirby
Pichu
-

Pichu is up first. What are Pichu's negative and positive attributes?

Negatives

• It's super light
• Can get comboed with relative ease
• Has garbage range on attacks and grabs
• Takes recoil damage when using electrical attacks (Stupid)

Positives

• Good recovery
• Pretty fast
• Has low landing lag
• Strong smash attacks

Pretty sure I'm missing some things, so if I am, chime in. We all know Pichu's negatives outweigh it's positives, therefore handicapping the character. So what needs to be done to tip the scale back at a leveled position?

• Make Pichu as light as Jiggs or G&W
• Fix the wonky *** hitstun it receives when getting hit
• Increase hitbox range on most ground attacks and grab
• Increase the damage dealt by certain attacks (I dunno what attacks... name some)
• No damage taken from electricity attacks

Some bonuses

• Give it that Lucario aura thing where it deals more damage when at a disadvantage

Start listing ways to improve Pichu. Once we're satisfied with what we come up with, then we move to the next character, and so on.

 

[lordvaati]

Give it that Lucario aura thing where it deals more damage when at a disadvantage

O.o

holy crap,that's like one of the best ideas I've heard.

 

[Oracle]

I already started the list
But pichu's main issues are his lightness, lack of grab range, lack of range, and the worst tech roll ever. So those should be the first things to go.

 

[Stratford]

Give it that Lucario aura thing where it deals more damage when at a disadvantage

Lol that's that Pokemon ****.

 

[lordvaati]

I already started the list
But pichu's main issues are his lightness, lack of grab range, lack of range, and the worst tech roll ever. So those should be the first things to go.

look on the plus side- now you have 2 characters down.4 more till next tier.

 

[metaXzero]

hey guys im back from my (canadian)thanksgiving weekend and I havnt read all posts yet, but I just want to remind everyone that I dont think this would be a balanced melee (although it would be slightly MORE balanced).

Part of the reason melee is so great is it isnt balanced. My thought on this would be simply to open up different strategies for some of the lower tiered characters, and some small buffs to characters that were over-nerfed from 64, or just do not function as well as they were inteded in melee.

I, for one, would never play a melee that has fox equally as good as a Pichu, and I am completely against any sort of nerfing of any character whatsoever. (except MAYBE wobbling..... maybe...)

Buffing bad characters by removing a couple things that hold them back would just be interesting and fun to see how they would do.


I am still only partly convinced melee should head this direction at all.

Imbalance is a GOOD thing? How does this logic work? I can't see the positives of having a large part of the cast being near-worthless...

And based on what you are saying, it comes off as sounding like you ENJOY winning matches just because your character is better. :/

What's with the wobbling hatred lately? Wobble or the other Ice Climber CGs, it's the same result in the end...

right?

 

[Stevo]

Imbalance is a GOOD thing? How does this logic work? I can't see the positives of having a large part of the cast being near-worthless...

And based on what you are saying, it comes off as sounding like you ENJOY winning matches just because your character is better. :/

What's with the wobbling hatred lately? Wobble or the other Ice Climber CGs, it's the same result in the end...

right?

Imbalance is what gave us all the advanced techniques that we enjoy and love about melee.
and its actually not that large the part of the cast that are not really playable. Brawl has more characters and I would say it has less playable characters in a tournament setting.

but ignoring overused comparisons of melee to brawl, melee has a competitive charm to it that only came about as an ACCIDENT. Melee was rushed and Nintendo never had any intention of it becoming a deep, tournament, hard core game as it is today.

Changing the game so fox cant shine spike, sheik cant chain grab, peach cant down smash, etc. would only hurt the game in my opinion.

I am also very good with some low tier characters, and I cant stand half of the top tier characters, so you are making some incorrect judgements about me.

If I had a choice of wobbling or doing something else in a tournament (assuming I could wobble well) I would choose to use wobbling, simply because it is better, yet for just a little more effort, normal Ice Climber chain grabs not only look cooler, but are I feel, more balanced.

this is my opinion on wobbling, and is a very minor point in what I am trying to say.

 

[N64]

I like that pikachu is low tier actually. Less people play him, less is known about him, and personally that can give me a little edge (though not much any more) because wtf how do I play against a pikachu? Who plays that terrible character? etc.

 

[Scidadle]

That scrub N64 plays that char.

<33333333

 

[metaXzero]

Imbalance is what gave us all the advanced techniques that we enjoy and love about melee.
and its actually not that large the part of the cast that are not really playable. Brawl has more characters and I would say it has less playable characters in a tournament setting.

but ignoring overused comparisons of melee to brawl, melee has a competitive charm to it that only came about as an ACCIDENT. Melee was rushed and Nintendo never had any intention of it becoming a deep, tournament, hard core game as it is today.

Changing the game so fox cant shine spike, sheik cant chain grab, peach cant down smash, etc. would only hurt the game in my opinion.

I am also very good with some low tier characters, and I cant stand half of the top tier characters, so you are making some incorrect judgements about me.

If I had a choice of wobbling or doing something else in a tournament (assuming I could wobble well) I would choose to use wobbling, simply because it is better, yet for just a little more effort, normal Ice Climber chain grabs not only look cooler, but are I feel, more balanced.

this is my opinion on wobbling, and is a very minor point in what I am trying to say.

Hmm? How would Bowser and Kirby being able to put up a fight prevent us from WDing and L-canceling? I don't understand.

In your examples, only Sheik's CG would actually need adjusting. I don't recall shine spiking and Peach's D-Smash destroying match-ups that weren't already screwed by crappy qualities on the lesser characters. But no amount of buffs besides being rendered near ungrabable like a spacie or having near-OHKO attacks can compensate for the damage Sheik's "D-throw a dozen times into a killing F-air" can do.

Funny thing is, I could use your reasoning against Wobbling against Sheik's D-throw CG. Do you truly find it entertaining when certain Sheik match-ups play out as "grab, D-throw, repeat until either a killing percent or they DI to an edge, F-air, edgeguard if they don't die"

 

[rekrapadept]

I don't know if any of this would be possible on a gamecube. Perhaps a wii exploit might work. Although, i can't really think of any off the top of my head. Someone would probably have to create an exploit on top of any changes to the game.

 

[Oracle]

It's possible to hack the game; you use a gamecube iso on a dvd disc and play on wii. We're not supposed to talk about it though, so keep it on the dl

 

[Scidadle]

melee texture and sound hacks are already out

ITS JUST THE BEGINNING

 

[InfiniteGXT]

just get rid of meteor smashes gg

why does falco have a quick and epic spike when someone like dk has 2 crappy slow meteor spikes? Did they even think about how broken that is? And its not just dk its most other characters. The low tier characters arent balanced at all its really sad. I wish there were much more variety.

 

[1048576]

You can't just give them ridiculous offense and then hope their natural weaknesses hold them back. You have to fix their horrible qualities first to make them playable and then work your way up.

These suggestions from 1048576 and Spam are good starts, but not detailed enough. I'll try to start with boozer because he's awesome

Bowser
Main problems- Defensive
- Incredibly slow jump (10 frames or something ridiculous of startup)- give him about average jump speed, like mario
- Bad recovery, can't go high enough- Make double jump not retardedly small, make up B go slightly higher and accelerate quickly towards the held direction in midair, rather than slowly
- God awful tech roll- Speed up tech roll and make it go further.
- Small shield, grab range too short to SG- Increased grab range, larger shield

Main Problems- Offensive
- Too much lag on aerials- Shorten aerial lag by large amounts
- Many attacks too slow to use effectively- Speed up Uair and F smash to barwl speed while retaining almost all power, maybe speed up d tilt

That's just a start. There would be other things like specific move changes, but that requires more of a group effort

If we make everyone Mario with GnW's recovery, the game would be boring. Preserving weaknesses makes for a diverse cast. All that bad defense can be helped by just making him harder to knock offscreen, as was originally intended.

If we have to speed him up, I think we should make his startup faster, not less lag. Bowser's meant to be laggy.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

If this pulls through I could finally bring in a Pichu for Tournaments ^_^ Kudos to you now and when that day comes.

 

[Stevo]

Hmm? How would Bowser and Kirby being able to put up a fight prevent us from WDing and L-canceling? I don't understand.

In your examples, only Sheik's CG would actually need adjusting. I don't recall shine spiking and Peach's D-Smash destroying match-ups that weren't already screwed by crappy qualities on the lesser characters. But no amount of buffs besides being rendered near ungrabable like a spacie or having near-OHKO attacks can compensate for the damage Sheik's "D-throw a dozen times into a killing F-air" can do.

Funny thing is, I could use your reasoning against Wobbling against Sheik's D-throw CG. Do you truly find it entertaining when certain Sheik match-ups play out as "grab, D-throw, repeat until either a killing percent or they DI to an edge, F-air, edgeguard if they don't die"

im not saying bowser being a better character would make us unable to wavedash, I was just explaining why imbalance has been a good thing for melee, which you could not understand from my last post.

If it was like 8 years ago, you would be correct, sheiks chain grab, in fact, most chaingrabs, should have been removed.

As it stands tho, sheik CANNOT chaingrab most of the top tier characters. She must tech chase if anything. Removing her chaingrab like they did in PAL would remove her combo'ing from her downthrow, which people would get used to in the end (like europe did), but it doesnt ADD any depth to the game.

wobbling works on everyone as far as I know. Chain grabbing takes some reaction time (because of DI) and, again I stress, CANNOT be done on MANY characters.

Seeing as you joined Jan 2008, did you simply join because brawl was coming out soon? If so, I don't think you can realise how long melee has been out the way it is, and nerfing characters, or changing drastically how they play, would simply alienate every true melee player, including myself.

The whole reason I brought up this topic, is because I dont want a melee+.

I just want a melee that gives some low tiers a little more depth, and the use of some of their useless moves.


EDIT: Im making an announcement on the first post

 

[lordvaati]

im not saying bowser being a better character would make us unable to wavedash, I was just explaining why imbalance has been a good thing for melee, which you could not understand from my last post.

If it was like 8 years ago, you would be correct, sheiks chain grab, in fact, most chaingrabs, should have been removed.

As it stands tho, sheik CANNOT chaingrab most of the top tier characters. She must tech chase if anything. Removing her chaingrab like they did in PAL would remove her combo'ing from her downthrow, which people would get used to in the end (like europe did), but it doesnt ADD any depth to the game.

wobbling works on everyone as far as I know. Chain grabbing takes some reaction time (because of DI) and, again I stress, CANNOT be done on MANY characters.

Seeing as you joined Jan 2008, did you simply join because brawl was coming out soon? If so, I don't think you can realise how long melee has been out the way it is, and nerfing characters, or changing drastically how they play, would simply alienate every true melee player, including myself.

The whole reason I brought up this topic, is because I dont want a melee+.

I just want a melee that gives some low tiers a little more depth, and the use of some of their useless moves.


EDIT: Im making an announcement on the first post

actually, Wobbling might actually be harder to do then Sheik's CGs, so they are about the same. and let's say that if this was made, would it effect the characters on the tier? because if we add all these buffs to balance them better and their positions are still the same, what's the freaking point? I mean once again just speaking, if this would happen, it must effect placements all the way up to Mid, maybe even high.

also,join dates say nothing about when someone played Smash. I mean look at me- I joined in 2006, but didn't get into Melee(or even have a GC) until 2008 and didn't start working on ATs until like 6 months ago.

 

[Stevo]

I wouldnt say join dates say nothing, but I didnt assume anything, I asked the question.
"Seeing as you joined Jan 2008, did you simply join because brawl was coming out soon? If so......... etc"
I didnt assume, I just said, if thats the case.

Wobbling IS harder to do than sheik's chaingrab, I never said it wasnt.

what is SOOOOOO wrong with having characters that are worse than others? Seriously.

The "freaking point" is to add more depth to the low tiers, and give them more tools to potentially win, maybe even get the advantage in SOME matchups. In my opinion, the point is NOT to make Ness win tournaments equally well as Fox.

besides, who the hell plays only 1 character anymore anyway?

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Changing the game so fox cant shine spike, sheik cant chain grab, peach cant down smash, etc. would only hurt the game in my opinion.

I don't think anyone here is talking about nerfing high and top tier characters. =/

The whole reason I brought up this topic, is because I dont want a melee+.

I just want a melee that gives some low tiers a little more depth, and the use of some of their useless moves.

We're not doing Melee+

Wasn't it already established that middle tier and below are the only characters that really need some tweaking, and that high and top tier characters don't need any editing?

That's what we're doing, right?--making those characters balanced in the sense of making them a bit more competitively viable?

The "freaking point" is to add more depth to the low tiers, and give them more tools to potentially win, maybe even get the advantage in SOME matchups. In my opinion, the point is NOT to make Ness win tournaments equally well as Fox.

That's... what we're doing? Buffing those characters so they can fair a little better against higher tier characters. We're not editing them to the point where they're as good as Fox.

 

[metaXzero]

@Stevo

Sheik tech-chases fast fallers. Everyone else (except maybe Jiggs but I'm not too sure) eats either several D-throws and/or a F-air. And do you really consider such a an easy, yet really good combo good for the game and it's balance? Sheik isn't the Ice Climbers with a crappy grab-range. In order to balance the game while keeping things like Sheik's D-throw, you'd have to make the lower tiers a bunch of Fox's and Jigg's knockoffs. And that is no good.

I'm just going to ignore that crack about my join date since it adds nothing.

If the buffs in the lower tiers did nothing to the match-ups, what was the point? Might as well not have wasted time trying to balance the game. I agree on trying not to drastically change characters, but if you are going to leave stuff like Sheik's D-throw in, yet not buff characters where they can deal with it like the Top tiers can, not much will change.

 

[lordvaati]

I wouldnt say join dates say nothing, but I didnt assume anything, I asked the question.
"Seeing as you joined Jan 2008, did you simply join because brawl was coming out soon? If so......... etc"
I didnt assume, I just said, if thats the case.

Wobbling IS harder to do than sheik's chaingrab, I never said it wasnt.

what is SOOOOOO wrong with having characters that are worse than others? Seriously.

The "freaking point" is to add more depth to the low tiers, and give them more tools to potentially win, maybe even get the advantage in SOME matchups. In my opinion, the point is NOT to make Ness win tournaments equally well as Fox.

besides, who the hell plays only 1 character anymore anyway?

you kind of assumed he had no knowledge of what hapened the prvous years with Melee. Anyway:

-there is nothing wrong wih having characters weaker then others. who exactly said that?
balancing characters=/= everyone being top tier. but what you are saying (at least insinuating,anyway) is "let's give a few buffs to lows and bottoms, but it won't change their positioning." that's the equivalent of taking a rock and painting it blue-you added something to it, but it's still the same bloody rock. the buffs are supposed to change their positionings and matchups, because if we buff Kirby up to be tourney viable but he has the same crap matchups,where's the change? because if we buff these guys but they're still the same, it will just be the same tournament matchups as now but the diff is that the Low Tiers can do a fancier version of whatever. but making the changes won't mean all of a sudden Kirby can win 70-30 against Fox- it just means people can main them without having to struggle so hard. and where did anyone suggest Nerfs to tops? we all agreed the Highs and tops were fine. if Kirby gets buffs or someone else, it should change their positioning, but it's not like they will shoot 20 spots up the list. and if a couple Mids(or even Lows *looks at Pikachu*) become highs, tough poop. in fact, that's good,since we would have a more diverse tournament scene, which was the point of doing this from the get go.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

Pikachu
make the semi spike of up-air easier to hit and remove the strange hitbox that sends backwards? change it into the semi spike forwards(maybe not, would need imput from pika players)

Not this...just give him a little more grab range and/or a bigger shield.

 

[Stevo]

I apologize if I offended anyone in my last few posts, about join date and such, it was not my intention. I just didnt like the look of many of the posts in this thread.

OK since it seems there is some confusion going on right now (perhaps its mostly me, because I came back to 6 pages of posts after I started the topic and only skimmed through), is everyone in agreement that only the lower half of the cast should be getting changes?

ScoobyCafe, I never actually responded to any of your posts..... it seems we feel similarly on many subjects, as yYou responded "thats what we are doing" to my posts.


I just dont like how people are suggesting things like "give samus a faster roll" and the like.
Weaknesses are part of the game, and since when does samus even need any buffs?


Ive been reading many of the posts, and I just dont like the feel of the direction many of the posters want this to go.

ScoobyCafe knows where its at though.


On Topic of Pichu:

I agree with this.

Also, we need to be a little more systematic here, i.e. focus on one tier or character in that tier and work our way up. Ideas are popping up quickly now, and it's kinda getting cluster****ed at the moment--for me, anyway.

So let's start with the bottom tier.

-
Bottom
Ness
Yoshi
Bowser
Mewtwo
Kirby
Pichu
-

Pichu is up first. What are Pichu's negative and positive attributes?

Negatives

• It's super light
• Can get comboed with relative ease
• Has garbage range on attacks and grabs
• Takes recoil damage when using electrical attacks (Stupid)

Positives

• Good recovery
• Pretty fast
• Has low landing lag
• Strong smash attacks

Pretty sure I'm missing some things, so if I am, chime in. We all know Pichu's negatives outweigh it's positives, therefore handicapping the character. So what needs to be done to tip the scale back at a leveled position?

• Make Pichu as light as Jiggs or G&W
• Fix the wonky *** hitstun it receives when getting hit
• Increase hitbox range on most ground attacks and grab
• Increase the damage dealt by certain attacks (I dunno what attacks... name some)
• No damage taken from electricity attacks

Some bonuses

• Give it that Lucario aura thing where it deals more damage when at a disadvantage

Start listing ways to improve Pichu. Once we're satisfied with what we come up with, then we move to the next character, and so on.

I do not agree with removing the damage he takes from using electric attacks. It makes him very unique. Why not fix him another way? Like I stated in the first post, his forward air DESPERATELY needs to do more damage, as it doesnt combo nearly as well as it was probably intended.

In case anyone doesnt feel like checking out the first post, I wrote for pichu:

make final hit box of down-b stronger
(or just increase the damage of the move overall)
Increase damage on forward air (right now it does almost as much to yourself)
Increase damage or knockback on down air
increase knockback on f-smash
increase runspeed slightly

any arguments with those? additions?

PS: honestly I dont really care about WObbling in the end, I just thought it would be neat to force people to use flashier combos, which result in the same anyway.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

OK since it seems there is some confusion going on right now (perhaps its mostly me, because I came back to 6 pages of posts after I started the topic and only skimmed through), is everyone in agreement that only the lower half of the cast should be getting changes?

Pretty much.

ScoobyCafe, I never actually responded to any of your posts..... it seems we feel similarly on many subjects, as yYou responded "thats what we are doing" to my posts.

Yup.

I do not agree with removing the damage he takes from using electric attacks. It makes him very unique. Why not fix him another way? Like I stated in the first post, his forward air DESPERATELY needs to do more damage, as it doesnt combo nearly as well as it was probably intended.

In case anyone doesnt feel like checking out the first post, I wrote for pichu:

make final hit box of down-b stronger
(or just increase the damage of the move overall)
Increase damage on forward air (right now it does almost as much to yourself)
Increase damage or knockback on down air
increase knockback on f-smash
increase runspeed slightly

any arguments with those? additions?

Yeah, unique in the sense of being the main reason why nobody plays Pichu. It's a major handicap for the character, and I'm of the opinion that it should go.

Still, I guess I do understand what you're saying. So, if we decide we're going to keep it, here's what I propose we should do: Restrict the damage recoil to his specials only. And give him the "high risk, high return" thing where the more damage Pichu takes, the stronger the specials.

Aside from that, I basically agree with everything else you wrote. With that, I don't think there's anything else that needs to be done to Pichu at the moment.

Kirby next?

 

[lordvaati]

Kirby

-for the love of god, axe the horrible lag in his Dair and Uair, and give Uair larger hitbox

-less hitstun from attacks

-make hammer worth a **** easier to sweetspot

that's what I said. agree? disagree?

 

[Stevo]

I would be for upping the damage on ALL attacks that have recoil damage, but keeping recoil damage as a whole.

One other option we could look into is removing all lag when Pichu Up-Bs into the ground, therefore giving him a sort of Mewtwo up-b approach.

Other than that, I think Pichu would be fine with all of those changes. With faster runspeed his range wouldnt be as much of an issue really.





Kirby

increase aerial control (not like jiggly but a little bit)
make neutral air suck less?
Increase knockback of smashes slightly (especially f-smash)
Increase Kirby's speed a lot when using run attack (kinda like how sheik speeds up, but less)
let him combo from one of his throws (back throw pop straight up maybe?)


I would agree with also speeding up his grounded hammer attack, or at least increasing its damage/knockback.

oh and making his up air hitbox larger towards the front of him

 

[Oracle]

Even without faster runspeed his lack or range would be a huge issue. He loses whenever someone tries to space against him.

What does keeping a character's weaknesses solve? That still doesn't balance the game, and in addition, it leaves the top tiers ridiculously dominant. The whole point is to balance the game to a point where picking pikachu doesn't give you an automatic disadvantage against someone who plays shiek; skill would matter much more than character choice (already true to an extent, but no matter how good DJN is, his bowser will lose against any moderately good shiek because he's held back by bowser's weaknesses.)

To address somewhere back in a post where you said something to the effect of "removing a character's advantages doesn't add depth": It actually does. By taking away ridiculous things like shiek's d throw cgs, the amazing priority of fox's nair, etc. it forces that player to be more creative and not just fall back on his character's great advantages to win.

 

[Stevo]

First, we are talking about Pichu (maybe you said pikachu by mistake, i dont know)

second, have you ever even played Pichu at a high level of play?

Falco has a poor recovery and slow run speed.... should we remove those weaknesses too? or perhaps keeping weaknesses IS good in some cases.

Weaknesses are good when they balance out something else that they are exceptional at. Pichu has exceptional spot dodge, recovery distance, air speed, smash strength.

By your logic, fox should always lose to marth, because marth CLEARLY out spaces Fox, so he would lose a spacing game. No, fox can dash in and out really quickly to avoid spacing problems.

This could be true with Pichu as well, if given a faster run speed, in my opinion.



EDIT: perhaps Removing sheiks chain grab could add some depth to the game, but it is depth that is not needed. I would rather see a ness be able to use his down-b in battle, then have sheiks required to play like PAL. Sheik's chain grab is overdiscussed, it's part of the game, its part of what makes sheik sheik. Marth can chain grab fox and falco just as rediculously. In fact, Marth can chain grab ANY character in the game at SOME percent. sheik can only chaingrab medium weights. counter pick Sheik with someone who isnt Ganon or Pikachu or whatever gets beat by her.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that sheiks chaingrab is overpowered, but nerfing characters at this point in the metagame (which is like 8 or 9 years in or something) just doesnt seem right.


In rock paper scissors, paper JV 5 stocks rock, but gets ***** by scissors. Yet it is balanced. Sheik can be balanced even if she ***** some characters, its just that we have to make it so she gets ***** by others (without making any matchups IMPOSSIBLE) I really believe that say Pikachu vs Sheik, or Ganon vs sheik, is not impossible matchup.


BLAH BLAH BLAH,
k point is, by keeping the mostplayed characters the way they are, we are essentially keeping classic melee intact, because 95% of melee matches involve the better half the tier list. What this should do, is allow people to play their favorite tourney worthy character still, exactly how they are used to, but also allow lower tier'd characters to enter the scene, adding some counter picks, or even some new mains.

IF I COULD GO BACK IN TIME I WOULD CHANGE HER CHAINGRAB, but as it stands, I dont believe it is the direction this should go. and I am pretty sure most of us have already agreed on that.

 

[metaXzero]

If we are going to keep Sheik's CG, yet buff those who suffer enough where they can deal with it (i.e. give them the tools to never be grabbed) we'd probably end up breaking some characters. It'd be easier and safer to just remove the CG.

Fox and Falco have the tools to avoid Marth grab ****, but Pichu, Bowser, and others don't have the tools to avoid Sheik's. And I'd hate to see these characters get overbuffed into broken monsters just to deal with a prime **** match-up when we could just remove the polarizing quality and suddenly, Sheik while still having the advantage, doesn't just destroy people.

 

[wool]

how about we just dont mess up a perfect game.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Yeah I 100% argee unless we can a dd just 2 more farmes of stun time to all of pichu's moves, his d-tilt,fair and dair would open up more to comboing.

 

[metaXzero]

how about we just dont mess up a perfect game.

Perfection doesn't exist. I love Melee, but I'm not going to kid myself.

And FYI, this will NOT replace the disk you own or the version used in most tourneys. Assuming it's even gets off the floor first and is made accessible like Wii hacks of course...

 

[Steelia]

I would certainly get a kick out of people hacking Melee to make it more "balanced". It'd certainly make for interesting matches, and be a nice breath of fresh air for the hardcore Melee players. It would be like playing Brawl... only, if Brawl stayed true to its roots and was actually a Melee 2.0 with online like originally intended (don't you just hate sidetracking).

Either way, just to get this out... first and foremost, I really wouldn't mind seeing a majority of the top tiers being downgraded to a lower level, just for the sake of not having to beef all the lowers to upper uncontrollable levels.
~And just for the only fighter I'm aware of, Mewtwo would need to have a LOT of his ending lag removed on his moves. His back-air, his down-air, his forward-smash, up-smash, AAA combo... Yes, he has quite a bit of lag. Perhaps maybe even turn his aerial spark attack into a single hitter move instead of a multi-hit, with a slightly larger hitbox? (Multi-hitter moves never seem very beneficial in the tourney settings, from what I see.)

 

[Archangel]

Pichu shouldn't heal himself imo because that would break him on some Counter pick Stages you could run and hill forever. I think they should give him an UpB Spike like Falco's SideB. Also if the self inflicting damage is left perhaps give him the Lucario Effect and make him do more damage as he gets damaged and make him slightly heavier.

Kirby...it's pretty much agreed so far with everyone else. Bring back 64 KIRBY!!!!

Mewtwo - Make him as good as Taj/Iori make him look Take away his laggy and Brawlish movements and Lag. After that He'll be great

Bowser - Increase Mobility in some ways. Make some of his moves faster I guess....idk DJ help me.

Yoshi - God help him with some recovery Please! I mean he has the best Shield in the game imo. Just make his Egg Roll like Jigg's Roll Except he can grab the edge after, Or make his Tongue grab the edge like Link and Samus...do SOMETHING!

Ness - No hope...sorry He'll be the Worse character in a Balanced brawl unless he got some Broken buffs. Maybe a lighting Fast UpB that can be moved around super fast lol. As well as a Much Faster Pekay Cross...or whatever he says. Idk. Still I don't see much hope them lol.

G&W - I do think they should give G&W A ****ing shield lol and Make His Roll less stupid and faster. He would be pretty **** good with just that done. Make some of his move slightly faster.

Zelda - Changer her to Sheik Permanently? . Seriously Why is she not Bottom? So much is wrong with her it's insane. Still she does have the Boot of love. If she was Faster in every way and had Jigg's DI She could be pretty good. Also if she had an Instant UpB to like Mew2 instead of a laggy one she could be at least Mediocre

Roy - Make him More like Marth LOL. Except more power full and with a ChargeB Cancel..that would be a great Edgeguard Mindgame. I don't think Roy should be as laggy or heavy as he is it's kinda gay lol. Or they could Nerf him alot but in exchange make his DownB Faster and slightly longer, Also it could Deflect Projectiles back at the attacker. Take that Marf!

Young link - Always had potential but he just doesn't seem to come together right. Make him have Easier Kill moves or something. His UpB Often sets him up for death. I also agree that he should have easier Spikes with his Dair also maybe he should have more Knock back on his Fair or...something. Idk. YL users help me out.

Pika- First Off I think he's very underrated. *See Axe*. All he needs Is Faster Recovery and less hitstun so he can't be ***ged by Sheik..etc. At least make it escapable.... Aside from that I agree with his Hitbox on his Uair being Fixed and Maybe adding slightly more knockback/stun to his Nairs.

Link - Less Heavy in exchange for more mobility almost YLishish. Make his Faster in exchange for a drop in Knockback kinda like Falcon's Nair....idk that could be a bad idea...idk it would have to be tested. Maybe make his Bombs have range of Damage. Like Peach's Turnips. Perhaps make Blue normal, Purple more damage, Red more knockback/damage, Babomb...a Babomb.

Mario - Make his Spike More threatening like Falco's or Marths. Otherwise reduce the lagg ALOT! Also give him more Recovery. Like make his SideB Boost infinite....why not? Jiggs can do it Aside from that maybe reduce his landing lagg slightly and make his DownB have less lagg.

DK - Make him slightly faster/less lag on some moves/grab - Give him a BETTER SHIELD! He'll be much better after that.

Luigi - Make him Explode SideB all the time LOL. JOKING! but give him a more improved third jump. Perhaps higher and don't make him drops straight down lol. Give him a Kinda UpB Marthish UpB. That way he can Jump off and UpB Backward Shoryuken people. That would be great.

Samus - Faster Roll, Make SWD so easy a caveman can do it LOL...maybe. Also take away some of her landing lagg and stalls. Release time for Missiles half a second faster. Giver her the ability to use the Whip again after being hit by her own bomb. This would make her less cheatable by Sheik for example.

Also for Samus/Link/YL what do you think of a Grab Cancel? Meaning rather then them being Helpless for 5 Years They can use a Shield to Cancel it like Sheik can cancel her needles.

Now...I know we agreed that we wouldn't do anything to Top/High tiers...but as I've said before. I hate IC's...can't stand them because they are 2 people They are SOOOOOOO Broken.....lol. How can you grab someone and kill them? They are sooooooo gay.

They are difficult to use I get that but IMO They are the Best Character(s) on the game with Wobbling being banned. I mean you can ban it at tournaments but friendlies at your house = gayness! I'm all for Buffing Popo in every way possible making basically Doubling everything in exchange for removing Nana COMPLETELY! lol. It's a gay/butthurt Idea I know but anyone that loses to Chu..etc prolly like it . Seriously though With enough Buffing Popo can do well by himself and have his own Chain's put in that aren't completely inescapable or Ban worthy. Now Nana could still be there but only as a Guest when Popo uses his UpB then she's gone. LOL I think it's a great Idea but...I am 100% Bias.[/QUOTE]

If we are going to keep Sheik's CG, yet buff those who suffer enough where they can deal with it (i.e. give them the tools to never be grabbed) we'd probably end up breaking some characters. It'd be easier and safer to just remove the CG.

Fox and Falco have the tools to avoid Marth grab ****, but Pichu, Bowser, and others don't have the tools to avoid Sheik's. And I'd hate to see these characters get overbuffed into broken monsters just to deal with a prime **** match-up when we could just remove the polarizing quality and suddenly, Sheik while still having the advantage, doesn't just destroy people.

Hey dude in charge of creating this thread....making sure you saw my uber BS filled post...with a few good ideas...I think. Ignore the IC's thing.

@MetaXzero.

Bluntly. We don't want to turn away High-Top tier player Mainly because they are 90% of the smash scene and will be needed for this to work. We can make Characters able to escape chain's or simply give them a means of fighting back. I mean should we remove Marth's Chaingrab on fox/Falco? NAH! Instead we should focus on giving them reasonable means of fighting back, without waking them the new top tiers automatically.

 

[Archangel]

I would certainly get a kick out of people hacking Melee to make it more "balanced". It'd certainly make for interesting matches, and be a nice breath of fresh air for the hardcore Melee players. It would be like playing Brawl... only, if Brawl stayed true to its roots and was actually a Melee 2.0 with online like originally intended (don't you just hate sidetracking).

Not just that. Imagine if the story mode was like Melee and had Melee physics and Melee advanced techniques? People would have played it alot more just trying to Wombo combo bosses and ****.

....please don't double post....please let someone else post......please...jesus......PLEASE!!!

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Sorry!!!!!!!

 

[metaXzero]

WHY would we remove Marth's CG on spacies? As I said, they have the tools to deal with Marth's grab ****. But characters like Bowser DON'T have the tools to beat Sheik's near 0-death CG.

Make them able to escape chains? Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing as making Sheik's D-throw unable to CG them?

Give them the means to fight back? As I said, buffing them to be able to deal with Sheik's D-throw (meaning, giving them the tools to avoid her grabs) could make them broken against other characters. We could fix one primary match-up while breaking several others. Meanwhile, Sheik losing her CG would not give her a bunch of 10:90 disadvantages since she has more then enough tools to fall back on.

If it's about not alienating Sheik mains, do they really love having such an unbalancing factor?