Hyrule should be counterpick only

[The Star King]

I'm gonna take "you guys" to mean "Battlecow".

 

[ballin4life]

you guys need to learn the difference between tiring jokes out and keeping them as running gags

objectively bad

I really don't think anyone from Australia is a good judge of that difference

 

[asianaussie]

we australians subscribe to a higher form of wit

mainly consists of laughing it out at bogans and rangas

 

[ballin4life]

yeah i kind of misspoke there. it's not really that Australians tire jokes out.

it's that they weren't funny in the first place.

 

[SSBPete]

i would be slightly offended if it wern't for the reason <3

 

[asianaussie]

ballin wouldn't know a good joke if it came up and debated determinism with him

 

[SSBPete]

im an indeterminist

 

[The Star King]

ballin wouldn't know a good joke if it came up and debated determinism with him

I smiled.

wut's a bogan/ranga

 

[SSBPete]

bogan = hillbilly

ranga = ginger

 

[t!MmY]

64 doesn't have the luxury of having a large amount of stages to choose from like melee or brawl.

You only need one competitive stage to play a competitive game of SSB.

if 64 only played on dreamland i'd be bored absolutely ****less

Many competitive sports use a single, simple design for play (i.e. basketball courts, football fields, and ice hockey rinks). Being bored is the choice of the player as is enjoying the thrill of competition. This is why Smash Bros has been designed with choices for both the casual player as well as those who wish to play competitively (i.e. item switch and stage select).

 

[asianaussie]

cool story mate

im fairly sure most people arguing to keep hyrule either a) don't care about 'competitive' play in that sense or b) are open to banning/making hyrule cp anyway

if apex shows significant abuse of hyrule's 'broken' bits not only in higher brackets, but also lower brackets, then those are the winds of change

 

[Battlecow]

No wut

why do lower brackets matter

brawl scrubs going at each other like boars in heat does not prove that 64 is an offensive game on hyrule

Also if they don't care about competitive play, wtf are they entering tournaments for? Jerk around in friendlies all you want.

Nice to see that some attitudes are shifting a bit tho

 

[asianaussie]

i was referring to people like matts

if it happens in lower brackets, where scrubs manage to camp and win/nearly beat good players then it proves it takes little to no skill to abuse hyrule, and thus abusing hyrule isn't a skill to be rewarded

poor reasoning if you know a bit about the game, i guess

but higher brackets definitely

 

[The Star King]

My position from the beginning has been "I'm open to the idea but need evidence first", and very little has been provided. Not to speak for other people but I don't think any attitudes have been shifted lol

 

[asianaussie]

ITT: battlecow imagines himself to be facing THE WORLD ITSELF

 

[Battlecow]

No, not really.

And I'm perfectly aware, SK. AA said that "most people" felt that way

So I was like

O nice

 

[Olikus]

genesis 2, europe tourney was good evidence. Thats the 2 biggest most recent tourneys. Not to talk about isai vs gerson, which even was friendlies O___O

 

[The Star King]

No, neither Genesis 2 matches nor Gerson friendlies were good evidence. Don't make me say why once again. Haven't seen the European matches, but I'll say up-front that probably won't convince me.

 

[Olikus]

I do allso feel this has been discussed enough honestly. Lets wait for apex!

And actually I agree with you. the gerson matches wasnt camping abuse. It was even worse, stalling....

 

[Sangoku]

I again agree with Star King. None of those are good evidence.

 

[Olikus]

how is standing under the tent waiting for isai to approach several times in every match with no intantion of approaching not stalling. And therefor not evidence?

I you guys dont look at that as even camping, then what is? Must you run back and forth wit hout throwing a single projectile?

 

[The Star King]

It's not good evidence because Isai won a majority of the games anyways

"Camping exists/is viable" is not good ban criteria. Only "camping is broken". We're not denying that Gerson camped.

 

[Olikus]

why shoud it only be allowed if you can beat it? so its okay if a player use a hammer and maximum tomato if you beat him? hyrule makes games campy no matter who wins.

 

[asianaussie]

the reason that we ban items is in relation to how beatable they are, yes, definitely (*￣m￣)

i would say something in relation to this argument but it's all been said by either SK, me or somebody else and neither side is giving ground at this point in time

 

[Olikus]

the reason that we ban items is in relation to how beatable they are, yes, definitely (*￣m￣)

yes it is in relation, but its not the biggest factor. but yeah we discussed this enough, if the apex matches dont get so extremely campy as the previous tourneys, there might be hope for hyrule after all.

 

[The Star King]

No, items are banned because of the luck factor >_____>

Hyrule has a luck factor too and you can quibble about that if you want, but it's unrelated to camping so I don't know why you brought up items

 

[Olikus]

No, items are banned because of the luck factor >_____>

Hyrule has a luck factor too and you can quibble about that if you want, but it's unrelated to camping so I don't know why you brought up items

yeah luck is the biggest factor why items is banned, aa's reason is just a small factor as I said. Why I brought it up was because you related bannable things with who wins or not which isnt the mainreason to bann things.

 

[asianaussie]

my 'reason' was almost entirely sarcastic, it's a null-factor

i thought of responding like SK did, but decided that being caustic isn't nice

and if something gives such a ridiculous advantage that, at high level play, the opponent cannot win (i think somebody mentioned akuma in some early street fighter game having 10-0 matchups across the board) then hell yes you ban it

 

[Olikus]

meh go read a poster or something. Im done, lets wait for apex shall we.

 

[t!MmY]

Apex won't provide any more information to analyze about Hyrule than the years upon years of tournaments and gameplay that the SSB community already has in past history. Additionally it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this tactic or that tactic is 'beatable'. Everything is beatable to some degree, but if it is truly and unequivocally 'unbeatable' then it would be obvious and self-evident and wouldn't require anyone to wait around for any event to prove it.

The reason why Hyrule is being motioned as removal from tournament play isn't just because of camping\stalling tactics that drag the game down, it's because the entire structure of the stage is geared toward casual play and not competitive (which in turn results in the undesired tactics that people speak out against).

If you feel Hyrule should be a part of competitive tournaments, then state why it's stage design elements are desirable not by simply standing around and waiting for Apex to show us the answer like a message from God above.

 

[Sangoku]

the years upon years of tournaments and gameplay that the SSB community already has in past history.

What history? What years and years of tournaments? I don't know if there was that much of tournaments in the past, but I don't think any of them showed anything about Hyrule being bannable. Plus the overall skill level has evolved since then, so not sure if it's a good idea to look at the past stuff.

I don't know, it looks like your post is just something too general and doesn't bring arguments. It looks like something you could say to ban any stage in any game.

Maybe I'm biased because I never see you on the 64 section though.

 

[The Star King]

yeah luck is the biggest factor why items is banned, aa's reason is just a small factor as I said. Why I brought it up was because you related bannable things with who wins or not which isnt the mainreason to bann things.

Main reason to ban things? There's multiple reasons for banning things. Items were banned because of the luck factor, while Yoshi's Island was banned because of camping being dominant.

Apex won't provide any more information to analyze about Hyrule than the years upon years of tournaments and gameplay that the SSB community already has in past history. Additionally it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this tactic or that tactic is 'beatable'. Everything is beatable to some degree, but if it is truly and unequivocally 'unbeatable' then it would be obvious and self-evident and wouldn't require anyone to wait around for any event to prove it.

I think you're overestimating the amount of data we have. And I'm not just going to look at Apex, but future tournaments in general, so I'm not sure why you said Apex specifically.

But I agree that if camping was truly dominant there's a good chance it would probably already be evident in past data, and future tournaments likely won't show much new. However, it's possible that past data is hindered by the lack of serious competition 64 has. Most games are friendlies or tournaments at which 64 is treated as a small side-event. Having extremely dominant players such as Isai probably doesn't help, either. Maybe if there was more competition, more evidence of Hyrule being ban-worthy would be present. So I accept that I'm potentially wrong and keep an eye out for this evidence that might crop up in the future.

One of my pet peeves is when people refute points that weren't even brought up. Nobody ever argued that camping being "unbeatable" is a reason for banning Hyrule. There's a difference between unbeatable and too powerful.

The reason why Hyrule is being motioned as removal from tournament play isn't just because of camping\stalling tactics that drag the game down, it's because the entire structure of the stage is geared toward casual play and not competitive (which in turn results in the undesired tactics that people speak out against).

What do you mean by geared towards casual play and not competitive? The luck factor (if so, that wouldn't make sense because tornadoes don't lead to "the undesirable tactics")? Anyways, camping is the central argument for banning Hyrule regardless. Not sure what your point is.

If you feel Hyrule should be a part of competitive tournaments, then state why it's stage design elements are desirable not by simply standing around and waiting for Apex to show us the answer like a message from God above.

The burden of proof is on the anti-Hyrule side of the table. It's much more reasonable to look for things that are undesirable rather than the inverse.

 

[Battlecow]

Star King speaks the truth in the above post.

Honestly the debate at this point is between people who aren't sure whether future tourneys will vindicate the pro-banners, and people who are confident that they will. Only thing to do is wait and see what happens; new strategies could come to light.

That said, I'm personally of the opinion that tornadoes alone are luck-factor/stage-interference-factor enough to justify the banning of hyrule--but I don't think that people will accept that as easily as they'll accept the camping thing when they realize that high level matches are becoming unwatchable and unpalatable, if they get finished at all.

 

[Olikus]

Main reason to ban things? There's multiple reasons for banning things. Items were banned because of the luck factor, while Yoshi's Island was banned because of camping being dominant.

I think I might wasnt clear in my typing. Im agreeing with you on that note.

 

[Zack353]

I honestly think the tornadoes alone are enough to automatically make it counterpick only. I don't think we need evidence to see that tornadoes (especially with the possibility of fast tornadoes) can make a crucial and entirely luck-based difference in a match between two players of close skill. However, I disagree that it should be banned entirely, though after seeing some of those Tacna videos it wouldn't surprise me if we ever get to that point in the future.

 

[KnitePhox]

use gameshark and remove gimpland wind AND hiderule nados in one code line

81131410 00FF

/thread

 

[Sempiternity]

hiderule

olololol i hadn't heard that before!

 

[asianaussie]

hiderule

hahaha

 

[The Star King]

Star King speaks the truth in the above post.

Honestly the debate at this point is between people who aren't sure whether future tourneys will vindicate the pro-banners, and people who are confident that they will. Only thing to do is wait and see what happens; new strategies could come to light.

That said, I'm personally of the opinion that tornadoes alone are luck-factor/stage-interference-factor enough to justify the banning of hyrule--but I don't think that people will accept that as easily as they'll accept the camping thing when they realize that high level matches are becoming unwatchable and unpalatable, if they get finished at all.

Yup. The one thing I disagree with in this post is the luck factor alone being enough to ban Hyrule, but I can't really justify my position. I think arguing about whether luck is powerful enough to ban a stage is incredibly difficult for either side. How does one draw the line? I certainly don't know.

Also wat, rawrimamonster coined Hiderule I think and I've seen Sangoku use it multiple times

 

[Battlecow]

I don't approve of counterpicks in general

If it's unfair/broken/bad enough to be non-neutral, why are we using it at all?