Hyrule should be counterpick only

[Zack353]

Lol inevitable drama

- Random tornadoes are bad and random. Much worse than random wind. Luck factors are competitive? wut

- EZ wall combos are too EZ. punishing shouldn't be as simple as a 0-death from a couple throws and an upsmash

- Only low tier that gets a boost that matters is Link

- Camping is GAY, and Hyrule promotes it (camp left side of stage? camp top platform with air camping? camp **** tent? run away all game and throw projectiles? wut)

- You can subjectively say gimping is less fun than camping, but if you want to you can CAMP to GIMP on Hyrule. WORST

Also, FAST TORNADOES

 

[clubbadubba]

Between this and ban pika, Someone should really just make a thread called "semi-serious proposed rule changes" before tons of these threads pop up

Edit:

suppose I should add something to this idea as well. I'm against hyrule as counterpick only. I think it is a very good, competitive stage, here's why:

Tornadoes: While they are random, you can hear when they spawn and even if they spawn right on top of you there is time to escape before it picks you up. Unlike the lava on zebes where one player is almost guaranteed some lava when it comes all the way up, it's pretty hard to get 'randomly' picked up by a tornado if both players are playing seriously. Also, I think tornadoes are the perfect counter to camping. If someone tries to camp in the tent or on the left edge, simply wait for the tornado to spawn there and for the location of it to be an advantage.

EZ Walls: Saying something shouldn't be so punishable is very subjective. By the same logic, shouldn't falcon not be an allowable counterpick to any heavy character on dreamland? Or hey DK's EZ fthrow up-b to gimp on dreamland? How punishable things are is part of the physics of the game, and it isn't our job to make a ruleset to limit or increase punishment. That isn't a consideration in banning a stage.

Camping is GAY: Subjective. Its a style of play and I don't think its right to say that. If someone wants to play defensive they can play defensive, don't try and eliminate that.

Gimping vs camping: both styles of play, neither is wrong. You can camp on DL too.




I'm also against peach's castle being a counterpick though.

 

[Battlecow]

Hyrule should be straight up banned, along with Peach's and Kongo. Why do we need counterpicks? No one wants to play on any of them except hyrule, and hyrule is broken competitively due to camping being the best strategy for both parties in many situations, leading to stalling. See: isai vs boom, Isai vs tacna (those are the only truly top level modern matches, IMO) Tacna vs Gerson, and Europe.

There's a case for peach's and kongo, but EH why not just have one stage? I don't see what other stages add except complicated CP rules and gimmicky, noncompetitive random fun.

 

[Glöwworm]

No, it shouldn't be banned. It should be CP. I don't necessarily agree with the point about tornadoes but yeah.

Dream Land for neutral.

 

[ballin4life]

hyrule should be the only legal stage

if you have gameshark then metal mario and FD for counterpick

 

[Battlecow]

I don't understand why it should be a CP. Why should anything be a CP? If it's jank, just remove it. We could be playing on a good stage ALL THE TIME, instead of half the time.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Circle camping between the middle platforms and tent is what really bothers me about this stage.

 

[clubbadubba]

holy balls inevitable drama lol.

Let me just add, before I look away from this thread for probably about 24 hrs (5-6 pages of thread), I think all the stages in this game are flawed. So imo, finding a theoretical flaw or two in a stage is not enough to ban them.

I think the one thing that would convince me (and any rational person I would hope), is if someone compiled the data from a bunch of games played under the backroom rule set on all the legal stages. If the games on hyrule resulted in significantly more upsets than the other stages, then I would agree it needs to be bumped down to CP or banned. This same logic would have to be applied to DL as well. Because isn't the point of a competitive stage to make sure the better player wins? Then of course what is an upset.... but that's the thing that would convince me more than all this theorycrafting

 

[The Star King]

We already did this argument in the social thread

 

[Olikus]

hyrule is still the worst of the 4 legal stages and should be cp at the best. And people need to stop favorising tornadoes or we just can start playing with items.

 

[ballin4life]

holy balls inevitable drama lol.

Let me just add, before I look away from this thread for probably about 24 hrs (5-6 pages of thread), I think all the stages in this game are flawed. So imo, finding a theoretical flaw or two in a stage is not enough to ban them.

I think the one thing that would convince me (and any rational person I would hope), is if someone compiled the data from a bunch of games played under the backroom rule set on all the legal stages. If the games on hyrule resulted in significantly more upsets than the other stages, then I would agree it needs to be bumped down to CP or banned. This same logic would have to be applied to DL as well. Because isn't the point of a competitive stage to make sure the better player wins? Then of course what is an upset.... but that's the thing that would convince me more than all this theorycrafting

this won't work. it's circular because "best player" is defined by winning. also just because i win more on Hyrule and less on Dreamland (or vice versa) that doesn't automatically mean Hyrule (or Dreamland) is a bad stage - I might just be better or worse on one of them.

 

[Sempiternity]

This is where the player tier list comes in handy!

*runs and hides*

 

[The Star King]

I agree with clubba in that we need evidence, but I would look more at how dominating camping is rather than "upsets" (although consistency in results is important too). And there simply is not enough. Battlecow used Isai vs Gerson/Boomfan but Isai won a majority vs Gerson and went evenish with Boomfan with his low tiers - not very convincing at all.

I don't really want to repeat the same debate now so I'm out, unless something new is brought up or I feel like posting again later.

 

[Fynal]

guys, DL is really the problem here, not hyrule. the only top tier character that really does better on hyrule is fox, whereas pika, falcon, and kirby are all noticeably better on dreamland. If this game isn't going to degenerate into only a few viable characters we need stages that are more balanced and allow for more viable characters (i.e. hyrule) instead of ones that degenerate into strongest gimper wins (i.e. dreamland). camping is a problem, yes, but because any character can camp to some extent, all characters are viable and we have a better competitive game.

honestly we need to ban DL. peaches should go too, for similar reasons, characters like samus and link have a hell of a time ever recovering while characters like pika and kirby have relatively good recoveries. Congo is ok because the various high platforms allow for more camping and therefore more viable characters and more competitiveness. Having said that, it just isnt as good as hyrule (jank ledges...) so I say we need HYRULE for neutral and CONGO for CP. actually i'd support ZEEBES for CP too, the broad area of the stage allows for significant camping and therefore lots of competitive low tier characters, though the acid does force an engagement every so often... Yoshi's island is a bad choice because characters with projectiles just do so much better, and mushroom kingdom has terrible edges and POW blocks that suck. SAFFRON, though, is pretty good, both the left and right sides allow for a lot of camping that make most characters competitive. Ness gets shortchanged hard on saffron, but honestly, ness is high enough tier that that really doesnt matter

NEUTRAL
hyrule

CP
congo
zeebes
saffron

 

[asianaussie]

can't tell if you're just trying to piss off battlecow or if you're actually serious...goddamn unicycles

See, there isn't what you'd call a 'fair' stage in 64 - Hyrule is an equaliser stage that lets some characters not completely suck by straight-up abusing a defensive style of play and the tent. The problem is, while bad characters become not horrible, good characters get the same sort of buff.

The question is: do we want to promote character diversity (to an extent, you still see lots of Kirby-Pika GFs on Hyrule), or do we want to cater to the higher tiers, most of whom are noticeably better on DL, or are too fast and too laser-y to care?

My opinion is just to enforce a stricter time limit of 7/8 minutes for games that matter.

 

[Battlecow]

He's just being a bad troll

He's prolly gonna go into the Kero doc thread and talk about how EZ my school is.

 

[Fynal]

hey i missed that one, thx for the heads up

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Tornadoes: While they are random, you can hear when they spawn and even if they spawn right on top of you there is time to escape before it picks you up. Unlike the lava on zebes where one player is almost guaranteed some lava when it comes all the way up, it's pretty hard to get 'randomly' picked up by a tornado if both players are playing seriously. Also, I think tornadoes are the perfect counter to camping. If someone tries to camp in the tent or on the left edge, simply wait for the tornado to spawn there and for the location of it to be an advantage.

Say you're about to KO your opponent with a finishing blow, then you get unnecessarily punished by a spawning tornado for using your laggy killing blow. Competitive right?

Say you and your opponent are playing ssb somewhere on the stage. While you guys are fighting, a random tornado spawns somewhere on the map! Now, say you get hit from your opponent to SOMEWHERE on the map and you get sucked up by a tornado from your hitstun, which inturn makes you get KO'd. I find this happens a lot when you hit someone from the **** tent area to the second platform, it's just an unearned lucky kill that shouldn't happen. Competitive =/= Luck

That feel when you get edgeguarded by a tornado. I find this isn't as bad, but you're still being pressured into making a perfect sweetspot and avoiding additional pressure from your opponent while you're recovering on and trying to get into a safe area.

http://i.imgur.com/LSDRX.jpg

^ That's 2 of the main circle camping points on the stage, forgot the second platform one ***.

Anyways, this is a bigger issue about Hyrule than the tornados. If you abuse this sort of pattern on Hyrule and have any sort of reaction time, you should be able run in another direction than your opponent and get away. Basically when people fight between these spots it gets reaaaally stally since you can't really hit each other unless you take a huge risk trying to attack your opponent.

 

[Zack353]

suppose I should add something to this idea as well. I'm against hyrule as counterpick only. I think it is a very good, competitive stage, here's why:

Tornadoes: While they are random, you can hear when they spawn and even if they spawn right on top of you there is time to escape before it picks you up. Unlike the lava on zebes where one player is almost guaranteed some lava when it comes all the way up, it's pretty hard to get 'randomly' picked up by a tornado if both players are playing seriously. Also, I think tornadoes are the perfect counter to camping. If someone tries to camp in the tent or on the left edge, simply wait for the tornado to spawn there and for the location of it to be an advantage.
That's the only advantage of it. See Boom's post for all the random reasons it adds unnecessary luck to the game. And you definitely can't hear where it precisely spawns.

EZ Walls: Saying something shouldn't be so punishable is very subjective. By the same logic, shouldn't falcon not be an allowable counterpick to any heavy character on dreamland? Or hey DK's EZ fthrow up-b to gimp on dreamland? How punishable things are is part of the physics of the game, and it isn't our job to make a ruleset to limit or increase punishment. That isn't a consideration in banning a stage.

DK's EZ f throw up-b is EZ to mash out of. Heavy characters can reasonably DI out of Falcon combos, but DI'ing out of wall throws is basically impossible. Not to mention that heavy characters can punish Falcon basically as easily/well as he can punish them.

Camping is GAY: Subjective. Its a style of play and I don't think its right to say that. If someone wants to play defensive they can play defensive, don't try and eliminate that.

You're right. I'm not trying to eliminate it. I'm still saying Hyrule should be a counterpick, not completely banned. Plus, like you said, you can camp on Dreamland to an extent if you really want to. It's mostly the circle camping Boom pointed out that's problematic. It adds incentive to never approach, and is that really a good thing?

Gimping vs camping: both styles of play, neither is wrong. You can camp on DL too.

Ok, but really? Camping on Dreamland? Any reasonable person can look at Dreamland and see that camping there is really not as possible as it is on Hyrule.

Ok, and for everyone saying low tiers get a boost.... not really. High tiers still dominate them, just in different ways from gimping. You can't use Isai matches as an example, either. We all know he breaks the tier list. What we can see from his recent matches, however, is the recent Hyrule metagame. 8-9 minute matches on average? wut

 

[asianaussie]

low tiers vs high tiers on DL = borderline unviable
low tiers vs high tiers on Hyrule = they have a legitimate chance

also, platform camping on DL is pretty easy, the stage is not lolsmall

ive been convinced link v kirby on hyrule is link advantage

 

[KnitePhox]

everyone get gamesharks and play ONLY FD(lol jk at least it would be an option). i got button activated codes to work(CHOOSE YOUR CHARACTER!), will make video after thanksgiving.

 

[Battlecow]

We shouldn't pick stages based on how well they treat bad characters. You can always switch characters if link feels "viable" to you on hyrule and "unviable" on DL.

 

[Zack353]

Also,

Fast tornadoes.


That is all.

 

[felipe_9595]

Sadly, this is 64. Hyrule is an HORRIBLE stage, but it should be legal, because all the low tiers got wrecked in dreamland, Hyrule adds some kind of "balance" to this (Even if fox can outcamp everyone in hyrule)

 

[Fish641]

We shouldn't pick stages based on how well they treat bad characters. You can always switch characters if link feels "viable" to you on hyrule and "unviable" on DL.

Regardless of the specifics of the situation, I disagree with you on this. If there's a stage that makes every character equally good, and one that only lets 3 characters be viable, we should play the first stage. That increases the competitiveness of the game, since player skill becomes the deciding factor, not whether or not both players choose to play viable characters.

 

[Battlecow]

No. Just no. If one stage is broken competitively, and one stage isn't, we play on the non-broken one.

Why is character diversity such a necessity? You guys are looking at this from a personal-bias standpoint; you need to have a dispassionate rule-making mindset. Base choices on what's competitive, not what's subjectively "fun"; otherwise, we'll be banning kirby in no time.

 

[asianaussie]

while battlecow is technically right about the principles, he's also a stick-in-the-mud and wrong about hyrule, so i offer token and non-token forms of disagreement

americans must be really boring to play against, since it seems all they do is camp the tent all day and frustrate dashgrab falcon mains

 

[The Star King]

Eh, both. Camping not being dominant = desirable metagame. Character diversity = desirable metagame. Stages should promote a desirable metagame.

And aa like very few people even camp (at least against me) apparently he's just scurred because of Gerson or something

 

[asianaussie]

i won't advocate banning hyrule until every single tournament match there becomes 10+ minutes long (samus, fox and link dittos 15+ minutes)

 

[Zorabotic]

The being able to hear a tornado spawn in ridiculous. That doesn't tell you exactly where it is. If you assume it's close to you, then that leaves you with two options when teching (one direction or in place, unless you'd rather get sucked up by a tornado >_>).



He's not asking for a ban, just a change to counter-pick only.

 

[ciaza]

but if i have no tornados, i'll have to learn how to button mash to escape dk's cargo trap! for you see to avoid getting fthrowed > giant punch'd i jump into a tornado 2-3 times to be outside the percentage range

i'd rather play on hyrule than get thrown and gimped all day on dreamland to be honest

 

[asianaussie]

yes, but battlecattle is all for banning it

i don't think putting it as CP only is a horrible idea, but DL solo neutral irks me

 

[The Star King]

Why would you do DL as the only neutral but not ban Hyrule? All that does is skew the metagame towards DL while not taking caring of Hyrule's issues. Neither Hyrule haters nor Hyrule advocates should support that lol

 

[asianaussie]

kongo/DL/zebes neutral

hyrule/peachs/cloudless yoshi CP

gentleman's rule enforced

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, I'm pushing for a ban of hyrule, I won't be content with CP'ing it

SK, when was the last time a tourney set on hyrule with you in it showed up on YT? So you'll forgive me for not taking your tourney matches into account. Plus, we're talking about top-level play here.

I have a feeling that people would start to agree with me if we had more serious tourneys. Guess I'll just have to win apex by camping *sigh*

 

[Zack353]

Doesn't Japan have Hyrule as counterpick only or something like that?

 

[Battlecow]

Japan has dreamland only. Notice how everything but their kirby dittos goes nice and fast? Notice how the games are 20,000x as enjoyable to watch as, say, the peruvian GF's or anything from Europe, even though J version has silly DI?

Much as I hate to say it, America's behind the curve...

 

[asianaussie]

that's only because of the silly noises

iirc those TASed swedish matches on hyrule were hella fun to watch, depends on the smashers more than the stage

 

[KeroKeroppi]

hey man you relax. those noises are not silly. japanese noises>american noises anyday.

 

[Zack353]

NA is probably the worst region for smash in the world, sadly (besides Europe)... even though we have Isai and Boom.