Hyrule should be counterpick only

[The Star King]

I don't see what you mean by "improvise".

No you're not, you're trying to make me seem like a lunatic frothing at the mouth. Just in case what you're saying is true, though, no nee to worry about it because I'm not mad. Say whatever you want.

 

[asianaussie]

you know battlecow's back is to the ropes when he acts like a calm debater and tries to portray others as being too serious about an argument

and noob shots like this:

And AA you play hentai mafia, STFU.

just lol

also single bouts of stressful activity rarely cause coronary problems without a history of existing issues

 

[Battlecow]

Isai hangs around for a while on the top plat or wherever and then goes in hardcore with tricky moves (like super-delayed Dair or w/e) and usually gets lasered for his pains, but pulls it off once in a while 'cause he's Isai.

@ AA I think it's a valid point. It needed to be made.

 

[asianaussie]

a) i never played it, was merely on the list of subs, and b) im not a sub anymore as of a few days ago, plus flavour means almost nothing in mafia

this overturns your entire argument

 

[ciaza]

wait there's hentai mafia? i need to get in on this

aa i also read today why little busters anime never got released and it's not planning to in the future either =C. on the upside, windmill has announced two new games (even though they won't be translated for agessss)

i always thought optimal strategy was to maintain the right distance (characters with a projectile can keep more distance) and approach blitzkrieg style whenever it's ~100% safe, then leave when it's not

i dunno i like super smash brothers

 

[asianaussie]

real men plan the vn (it's like 95% TLed anyway)

 

[ciaza]

i prefer the anime in 95% of cases because i can't be bothered with multiple routes. exception is if it's something like planetarian or fsn where i can just scroll scroll scroll

if hyrule is banned further efforts should be put in to make final destination easier to set-up in tournament situations

Spoiler

shameless poor effort to stay on topic

 

[Battlecow]

I'm just saying, if I played hentai mafia, I'd concede every argument I was in if someone brought it up.

How's the flexed-arm-hang coming, SK? Harder than you thought?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Isai hangs around for a while on the top plat or wherever and then goes in hardcore with tricky moves (like super-delayed Dair or w/e) and usually gets lasered for his pains, but pulls it off once in a while 'cause he's Isai.

This is a really good point. Why Isai started camping that top platform was because jiggly couldn't get past the fox laser game on Hyrule.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5WAdMhgPBQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1awEdq9Dy0

That first match Isai tried to approach the whole match and got punished for most of it, while the second match he used his secret anti-laser strategy against fox(lolcamping against camping). I hope you know how much longer the second or even first match would've taken if neither of us bothered to move from our camping positions.

 

[clubbadubba]

But the thing is, the game did end in a reasonable amount of time because at least one of you did move from your camping positions. At the highest level of play, at the most competitive scene smash 64 ever sees, the games ended. To me, this means that hyrule is not yet a problem (I'm not implying I think it one day will be).

 

[rawrimamonster]

I said this like...what 2...maybe 3 years ago now and this is the second time this has popped up after it? Damn guys I musta been ahead of my time!! j/k guys. Since I dont like posting here because I get jumped on like ima white girl at a party, I'll be quick.

Fact: tornado is a random uncontrolled element that ruins games/matches and cant always be avoided, in my years of playing its ****ed me over more than helped and can be used as a unfair advantage for either person. This is the reason we disable items, because in the end they add a random uncontrolled element that ruins matches and takes away from the skill of the match. It causes outcomes that would have normally been shifted in another persons favor had they not been sucked in.

Fact: All characters gain some sort of camping ability, but a select few maximize on it and become better enough that they shadow the other cast (I'd post some bull**** numbers but i dont know how the metagames advanced since i last played), this is a element that can be reduced by hyrule being counterpick. it gives those at a disadvantage more choice in not playing there if their char would be at a loss.


Fact: hyrule temple was BANNED in melee for reasons of camping, the same can be said of hyrule 64 but to a lesser degree only because of different level design, but the idea remains the same. The level can be camped and will give unfair advantage that those specific characters would not otherwise have, but not to a degree where it will break gameplay.

End result: it should be counterpick only, this will force other stages to be played more often (which I KNOW you guys dont do, i played this damn game long enough with all of you to know xD), the community's experience on these stages will help them better themselves and it'll potentially open debate for making more stages viable for tournament play because players will be more comfortable on them. Really not like it matters, isai will win anyway.

edit: was browsing a bit and sorry for off topic but wtf did surri get banned for? lmfao

 

[Olikus]

But the thing is, the game did end in a reasonable amount of time because at least one of you did move from your camping positions. At the highest level of play, at the most competitive scene smash 64 ever sees, the games ended. To me, this means that hyrule is not yet a problem (I'm not implying I think it one day will be).

it can allso be judge in how we want the game to be played. If we are satisfied with luck(nadoes) and camping ofc hyruole isnt a problem.

I want to make the competitve aspect of the game as good as posible. And that does not include hyrule as neutral.

 

[clubbadubba]

I think at this point no one is going to change their mind without some serious empirical evidence, so let me try a different route.

Hyrule as CP accomplishes what exactly? We currently have 3 neutral stages, which allows each player to strike one stage at the beginning. If we make Hyrule CP only, then that leaves only 2 stages, DL and Congo. Then what is the fair way to determine starting stage (stage striking no longer works)? Iirc some people said DL should be the only neutral, but in my mind Congo is more neutral than DL (no wind). Peach's castle becoming neutral is another possibility, but I don't even like that stage as CP (maybe others feel differently). Point is, making Hyrule CP only would require some other stage legality changes to keep competitive play fair under the current rule set.

Under the current rules, however, Hyrule hater's can always strike Hyrule at the beginning, which basically makes it a counter pick. Or if both players enjoy Hyrule they could strike the other 2 stages.

But then again, people might say it is unfair to force the Hyrule hater to waster their stage strike on Hyrule. What if the 2 players agreed beforehand whether Hyrule was neutral or CP? They would have to both agree on neutral or it would be CP. You get the same result as you would have for 2 players that like Hyrule, and for any other mix of players they don't have to waste their stage strike. But then we are back to only 2 neutral stages and stage strike is not a good option.

Moral of the story, it isn't as simple as making Hyrule CP only.

 

[Zack353]

You're right. Let's make Sector Z a viable neutral stage while we're at it. Pretty similar to Hyrule. Random ships = random tornadoes. Wall combos = tent combos. Surviving for a long time. Camp friendly. yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Olikus]

what about making hyrule cp light. You can only pick it once in a set

 

[The Star King]

I'm just saying, if I played hentai mafia, I'd concede every argument I was in if someone brought it up.

How's the flexed-arm-hang coming, SK? Harder than you thought?

What aa said. It's painfully obvious what you're doing when you bring up irrelevant stuff like that out of the blue/tell me to calm down when I sound slightly mad at best.

I haven't tried it yet, but I find it bizarre that you're so confident :/

@your other post - it's true that Isai started camping the top platform and that's a good point, but I wish you would stop acting like his approaches work because he's some sort of wizard. "Works because he's Isai" - what does that even mean? He may be the best player but he's still playing the same game, and the same restrictions apply to him. Kind of brings down an otherwise good post.

 

[okisme]

hyrule is a great stage, prob better than dreamland imo, less gimping and true skill is shown

stage hating happens in ALL 3 smash bros, get over it

 

[Glöwworm]

IMO, make Dream Land a bit bigger and we don't need Hyrule anymore.

 

[Froski]

less gimping and true skill is shown

stage hating happens in ALL 3 smash bros, get over it

So if you dont get gimped you can show your true skill eh? Well..that person should be "skilled" enough not to get gimped in the first place. That true skill you speak of is probably being able escape to the other side of the stage to avoid being gimped. (lol link)

 

[Glöwworm]

^ incoming infraction

Hyrule should be a bit smaller. I think it's been said but now that I think about it, the tornado could've been added to deal with potential camping.

Spoiler

Or not

 

[Battlecow]

What aa said. It's painfully obvious what you're doing when you bring up irrelevant stuff like that out of the blue/tell me to calm down when I sound slightly mad at best.

I haven't tried it yet, but I find it bizarre that you're so confident :/

@your other post - it's true that Isai started camping the top platform and that's a good point, but I wish you would stop acting like his approaches work because he's some sort of wizard. "Works because he's Isai" - what does that even mean? He may be the best player but he's still playing the same game, and the same restrictions apply to him. Kind of brings down an otherwise good post.

Dude, I'm joking around with you and saying random **** as well as arguing. IDK, it's not like I have a master plan and ribbing you about our bet is part of it. And- I say this not as a distraction but as an honest request- it would befit you really well to stop getting "slightly" mad about every post I make.

OK, his approaches work because he's better than his opponent or w/e.

 

[asianaussie]

proban always needs results and tournament evidence before they can really put up a legitimate argument, so you might consider running a hyrule-only tournament or something and seeing how things pan out

star king, you should read battlecow's post in as sarcastic and arrogant a voice you can muster

 

[Sangoku]

We should implement tornadoes on Dreamland. That stage would become more neutral.

 

[Olikus]

We should implement tornadoes on Dreamland. That stage would become more neutral.

Oh you

 

[Sempiternity]

proban always needs results and tournament evidence before they can really put up a legitimate argument, so you might consider running a hyrule-only tournament or something and seeing how things pan out

Probably not the best idea. Everybody who's pro-ban is going to purposely camp the **** out of everybody else just to prove a point.

 

[dandan]

Probably not the best idea. Everybody who's pro-ban is going to purposely camp the **** out of everybody else just to prove a point.

the fact that they can do it kinda says something though.

 

[Sempiternity]

the fact that they can do it kinda says something though.

Yeah, but I guess the point is that we don't have 90 minute matches as it is, so the only problem here is theorycraft and what could happen.

However, now that this issue has been brought to light, those fierce advocates are going to wind up unreasonably stalling matches, further ruining the game for everybody else.

 

[Zack353]

Or we could just be like Japan and make it Dreamland only

 

[Battlecow]

^^ only reasonable thing to do IMO

But I guess more evidence is in order.

I've been camping the **** out of anyone who takes me to hyrule recently, pretty inconclusive results tho 'cause either they suck and I'd have beat them anyways or they quit after like 5 minutes of getting camped

No one good ever takes me to Hyrule

 

[The Star King]

@Battlecow I would say that Isai using low tiers puts him on the same level as Boomfan. He went even with him on Dreamland as well.

And you know I'm not mad.

Probably not the best idea. Everybody who's pro-ban is going to purposely camp the **** out of everybody else just to prove a point.

Nothing wrong with that I think. If they can actually pull it off it's still evidence.

i.e. if anybody worse than me can beat me via Hyrule camping then using it as evidence is fair game. I don't think it'll happen, though.

 

[Battlecow]

high level play DOOD

But if we had a hyrule tourney and 2 haters of roughly equivalent skill came up against each other, the match would never end because they would each think that not approaching was to their advantage (regardless of whether that would be true, which I think it would, it would prove nothing).

 

[The Star King]

Lol, what's the cut-off for high level play then? If it's only Boomfan and Isai then you're not going to be getting much evidence any time soon.

With your mindset, perhaps. I don't think not approaching is always advantageous on Hyrule at all.

 

[Battlecow]

You can be high level play

But definitively "worse than you" people prolly aren't

So games where people worse than you couldn't camp you wouldn't be high level

 

[The Star King]

I meant like a bit worse than me, not some giant noob

 

[King Omega]

Gimpland only? Sound like a load of fun.

I don't play in tourneys, so you can ban to hell whatever you want. But if it is banned, and that decision is populazrized (which it may well not be), then people are going to start *****ing online when I pick Hyrule. Becasue we really want to give the community another thing to john about besides grabs/uairs/utitls/Fox/Pika/Falcon/Ness/Samus/Yoshi/DK/Link/Luigi/Mario/Jiggs/Kirby/
everystageotherthanHyruleandGimpland/camping/gimping/apporaching/shielding/comboing/playing.

 

[Battlecow]

Oh, shush. If people don't want to play on a wack-*** stage, they shouldn't have to.

"WAAAAH JOHNS" would be an equally valid reason for unbanning Mush Kingdom or Sector Z.

 

[ballin4life]

If we ban it now, the Apex GF's don't have to have the same problems the Genesis GF's did.

Pretty sure there was an 8 minute dreamland match with plenty of camping.

Ballin', go into finance and sell your soul to the corporate machine already so that you can host an international supertourney featuring the top 20 players from each region

Haha just accepted a job so we will see.

The average length for the Hyrule games was 53 seconds more than Dreamland's average BTW. Could be a lot worse.

lol that you calculated this out haha.

Fact: hyrule temple was BANNED in melee for reasons of camping, the same can be said of hyrule 64 but to a lesser degree only because of different level design, but the idea remains the same. The level can be camped and will give unfair advantage that those specific characters would not otherwise have, but not to a degree where it will break gameplay.

Please don't compare hyrule 64 to melee hyrule temple. They aren't similar at all. It's not that Hyrule temple can be camped, it's that you can run around that circle thing forever.

 

[felipe_9595]

I almost felt of my chair laughting when i read that congo is more neutral than DL because congo doesnt have wind xDDDDDDDDD

 

[asianaussie]

are you sure you read that right

i recall it was the other way around

 

[felipe_9595]

I think at this point no one is going to change their mind without some serious empirical evidence, so let me try a different route.

Hyrule as CP accomplishes what exactly? We currently have 3 neutral stages, which allows each player to strike one stage at the beginning. If we make Hyrule CP only, then that leaves only 2 stages, DL and Congo. Then what is the fair way to determine starting stage (stage striking no longer works)? Iirc some people said DL should be the only neutral, but in my mind Congo is more neutral than DL (no wind). Peach's castle becoming neutral is another possibility, but I don't even like that stage as CP (maybe others feel differently). Point is, making Hyrule CP only would require some other stage legality changes to keep competitive play fair under the current rule set.

Under the current rules, however, Hyrule hater's can always strike Hyrule at the beginning, which basically makes it a counter pick. Or if both players enjoy Hyrule they could strike the other 2 stages.

But then again, people might say it is unfair to force the Hyrule hater to waster their stage strike on Hyrule. What if the 2 players agreed beforehand whether Hyrule was neutral or CP? They would have to both agree on neutral or it would be CP. You get the same result as you would have for 2 players that like Hyrule, and for any other mix of players they don't have to waste their stage strike. But then we are back to only 2 neutral stages and stage strike is not a good option.

Moral of the story, it isn't as simple as making Hyrule CP only.

XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Inb4 Infraction, i deserve it xD

EDIT: yeah i wrote it wrong above