Hyrule should be counterpick only

[asianaussie]

i think kongo is arguably more neutral than DL

are you gonna XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD me as well

 

[clubbadubba]

And I stand by my statement felipe. I feel it is harder to gimp on congo due to having a top and bottom platform option to return to and of course the barrel. The ability to come up through the floor also helps recovery. The only "random" element is the barrel, which isn't really random because it follows a set pattern that doesn't depend on anything going on in the game. If you gave some reasons instead of xDDDDDD maybe you would change my mind.

 

[kys]

i think kongo is arguably more neutral than DL

are you gonna XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD me as well

Finally, someone else who sees the light. Welcome, brother.

Just read more of the thread. Welcome as well, brother Clubba

 

[ciaza]

i'd join that club

i don't believe that therefore makes it more fun to play on though, hence why i play on dreamland a lot more.

i think i should start an august 2009 club. only people who joined in august 2009 can join. members so far:

myself
blaze3927
ssbpete
kys
emmanuel
melancholy

recruiting new members

 

[asianaussie]

kongo is equally gay to everyone

dreamland is only gay to the person being gimped at that point in time

hence kongo is fairer

this is not an actual argument, i just want people to know i dislike kongo as a stage

 

[SSBPete]

there are no ledges to DI off, so recovery in kongo is just as bad as DL. not to mention the 2 inclines (actually 4 if you count the stationary platforms), 2 moving platforms and a barrel that similtaneously moves and spins randomly. futhermore its so dark and visibility is an issue. and if anyone is arguing that the barrel makes for better recovery, you will notice about 10% of the time you get blasted into the k.o. zone and the other 90% you get shot up with more hitstun than a kirby utilt and a falcon uair put together.

shotgun co-leader in ciaza's club

 

[Glöwworm]

Yeah, I was actually going to point out that you're so vulnerable after getting shot out of the barrel. It's like having Ness' recovery but you're not Ness.

*shivers*

 

[ciaza]

the only times i manage to survive is when i time it so the barrel shoots me out at an angle

it also suck that you don't get your jump back if you've used it to get into the barrel

 

[felipe_9595]

-No Ledges to DI (This by far the worst issue)
-Random Barrel (Even if it follows a pattern you cant see it 100% of time)
-Moving Platforms

Also, the circle camping on this stage is even more big than DL Circle camping.

and yeah i wil XDDDDDD at many times if i find something funny (Funny, not necesarily stupid)

 

[King Funk]

hyrule is a great stage, prob better than dreamland imo, less gimping and true skill is shown

I'm amazed by any poster that truly believes less gimps shows more skill.

Hyrule is a really awful stage.

And also, I lol'd at Bcow mentioning Europe as extremely campy. While I'll admit it's kinda true (in tourney matches only), maybe we're some of the only people that actually upload videos of us playing (even if I kinda stopped doing so at the moment).

 

[ballin4life]

Ledge DI is not important at all seriously.

 

[felipe_9595]

Well, lets make 64 already ridiculous ledge game even more ridiculous taking out the only chance you have to avoid a gimp.

 

[ballin4life]

the only chance ... that works like 1% of the time anyway

congo actually gives you better recovery because you can go through the stage. that's a much bigger factor than ledge DI.

 

[Glöwworm]

I actually find those type of stages much more of a hindrance since a smart player can just dair (or any type of attack that sends you down) you before you even make it past the stage. Link's abysmal recovery gets even more abysmal since his up b has no range on top and you can just get daired without your opponent taking any risks.

 

[SSBPete]

hyrule has a tent, it was made for camping

deal with it

 

[rawrimamonster]

Please don't compare hyrule 64 to melee hyrule temple. They aren't similar at all. It's not that Hyrule temple can be camped, it's that you can run around that circle thing forever.

Note: I said essentially it was a comparative IDEA lol, they can both be camped to hell, players can run and never fight, they give UNBALANCED advantages to some chars. Like I said, ideas the same just different level design. The way that hyrule 64 can be camped though is less severe then temple thus not warranting a ban at all but definitely a counterpick by comparison.

/reading comprehension

 

[Battlecow]

If you watched genesis GF's, circle camping was the major problem.

So fox shooting lasers for % advantage and running in circles around walls and obstacles to avoid pursuit is the major problem on each.

Pretty similar.

 

[ballin4life]

Note: I said essentially it was a comparative IDEA lol, they can both be camped to hell, players can run and never fight, they give UNBALANCED advantages to some chars. Like I said, ideas the same just different level design. The way that hyrule 64 can be camped though is less severe then temple thus not warranting a ban at all but definitely a counterpick by comparison.

/reading comprehension

If you watched genesis GF's, circle camping was the major problem.

So fox shooting lasers for % advantage and running in circles around walls and obstacles to avoid pursuit is the major problem on each.

Pretty similar.

If we go by your standards I can say that Dreamland is similar to Hyrule temple also, since you can camp and run around in a circle on Dreamland.

It just doesn't help your argument when you make a comparison like that. What you can do on Temple (run around a circle and literally NEVER get even close to fighting anyone) simply isn't comparable to the "camping" on any 64 stage.

 

[M!nt]

Why are you guys talking about a melee stage in the 64 forum
Even if it is or isn't comparable what does that mean, its from two different games

 

[The Star King]

I don't get why people complain about lack of DI-able ledges in Kongo. Oh no, the stage grants you so many recovery options over Dreamland but takes away a mediocre one that will probably not save you unless you're lucky enough to get reverse ledge DI.

Oh, and if you manage to get in the barrel you usually don't end up dying anyways. I'm getting the sense that people are saying otherwise without actually having played the stage much.

 

[M!nt]

Yeah, but if you're damaged enough to need the barrel, then when it shoots you and leaves you open, you might as well of just died.

 

[The Star King]

"Damaged enough to need the barrel"? Low % gimps happen in this game all the time.

And even if you're at a mediumish %, if they knock you away after being shot out of the barrel you're going to get an opportunity to recover high, and recovering high is better than recovering low for most characters in this game (and you were presumably low if you needed the barrel).

And it depends on the character your opponent is, too. Some characters are a lot better than punishing the barrel than others. If they're Samus or Mario they're not going to be able to do much.

 

[M!nt]

I like how you said "in this game" like i didn't know what game your talking about. lol
I didn't mean it like that and trust me i know low % gimps happen, its just I don't think the barrel is very helpful at recoveries, if at all.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah but I was refuting your point that "you might as well have just died" by pointing out that you can be in the barrel at a low %, way to totally ignore that

 

[kys]

I kinda gave up my Congo rally cry after the last time when Semp and SK were the only ones to respond, but now it looks like I've gotten new life.

The Barrel: Unless you have high %, the barrel saves. This is especially true for lighter characters. But if the barrel wasn't there, you'd die anyways, RIGHT? The barrel is another option for characters with poor recoveries; it strikes a competitive balance.

The ledges: Ledge DI is so overrated. In high level play even if you REVERSE LEDGE DI you are still screwed 95% of the time. If anything, ledge di only serves to break your controller. This is different in regards to teams, but we're not talking teams (I think?).

Visibility: Seriously? Get glasses I DUNNO

Top ledges and pass through floor: These give more recovery options, especially out of barrel as the esteemed emperor of the stars has previously pointed out.

Slopes: I will concede that these can be strange and sometimes mess up an aerial > grab. But these are so few and far between they hardly come into play.

Approach, combo ability, and recovery are the three main areas of smash. The discrepancy between these 3 is what makes the gap in tiers. Congo, with its many platforms, helps close the gap with the first two. The barrel, ledges, and pass-through floor help close the gap with recovery. Competitively, it's the most fair.

That is all.

 

[The Star King]

I actually don't like the sloped floor myself, but instead of whining I recognize this as a personal gripe caused by me simply not being used to the stage and I don't try to falsely claim the stage is unfair because of my personal distaste

Congo4life

 

[asianaussie]

I actually don't like the sloped floor myself, but instead of whining I recognize this as a personal gripe caused by me simply not being used to the stage and I don't try to falsely claim the stage is unfair because of my personal distaste

Congo4life

stop being me ffs

this is the exact gripe that irritates me about the stage

people tend to overrate ledge DI, yeah, but you still have to take it into account (although recovering through the platform gives lots of options which i prefer over ledge DI)

 

[The Star King]

You know what great minds do...

Think for themselves

Yeah, you have to take it into account, but it's nowhere near worth banning a stage over, especially considering Congo is the best stage in the game in terms of recovery options.

 

[asianaussie]

you forgot RttF

so many abusable obstacles to interrupt trajectory

 

[The Star King]

I meant legal stages you 1unt

 

[asianaussie]

it's good to see you're trying to act australian, but you're doin it wrong

hyrule is the best stage in that case, stay in the tent and 80% of kill moves don't kill

no better way to aid recovery than to prevent it

except then you get 0-deathed

WHOOPS

 

[The Star King]

Options to prevent the need to recover do not count as recovery options anyways get out of here

I actually just wanted to see how ciaza would respond

 

[ciaza]

i was extremely impressed and my respect for you has mildly risen

i didn't have anything on topic to say though so i didn't say anything

 

[asianaussie]

you can't use australianisms unless you're australian

more to the point, you can't use obscure desiree jokes unless you're a resident of desiree's

 

[The Star King]

YOU HOLD I STEAL YOUR JOKES

 

[asianaussie]

...

...

...

*grudging applause*

 

[Battlecow]

If we go by your standards I can say that Dreamland is similar to Hyrule temple also, since you can camp and run around in a circle on Dreamland.

It just doesn't help your argument when you make a comparison like that. What you can do on Temple (run around a circle and literally NEVER get even close to fighting anyone) simply isn't comparable to the "camping" on any 64 stage.

Thought you were a better debater than this.

Circle camping does NOT happen on DL. It is the main problem with both hyrule temples.

hyrule 64 isn't as bad as melee hyrule. If you don't tihnk you can run around a circle and not fight people while lasering in 64 though--just look at genesis GF's, that's ALL boom does.

Similar problems. All I'm saying.

I'm not against congo, as long as black doug is made legal. Or rather, I'd still like to see it banned for simplicity's sake, but it doesn't make sense to ban it if we adopt the stupid "stage diversity is the goal" attitude of the majority of people in this community

 

[asianaussie]

>advocate simplicity banning
>ignore points on stage (and therefore character) diversity
>refuse to consider an arguably fairer stage as solo neutral

all in one post

and you call out others in debating?

 

[Nintendude]

I think the stage strike system is a good compromise between making Hyrule a starter and a counterpick.

 

[SSBPete]

YOU HOLD I STEAL YOUR JOKES

mad respect