Hyrule should be counterpick only

[Battlecow]

Those were made to be entertaining; of course they were fun to watch.

The Japanese were playing in tournament. They were playing to win. They were playing against players of similar caliber. And in non-jank MU's, the matches were still enjoyable 100% of the time.

Not that that's why DL should be the sole stage. It should be the sole stage because stalling ruins the game, and will result if people play to win on hyrule.

NA is probably the worst region for smash in the world, sadly (besides Europe)... even though we have Isai and Boom.

What a ****ing ******** thing to say, lol. IDK who you are (James Franco or whoever?) but we camp waaaaaaay less than peru or Europe.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah, I'm pushing for a ban of hyrule, I won't be content with CP'ing it

SK, when was the last time a tourney set on hyrule with you in it showed up on YT? So you'll forgive me for not taking your tourney matches into account. Plus, we're talking about top-level play here.

I have a feeling that people would start to agree with me if we had more serious tourneys. Guess I'll just have to win apex by camping *sigh*

Why are you talking my personal tournament matches? I didn't say anything about that. Observe high-level tournament videos as a whole.

Japan has dreamland only. Notice how everything but their kirby dittos goes nice and fast? Notice how the games are 20,000x as enjoyable to watch as, say, the peruvian GF's or anything from Europe, even though J version has silly DI?

Much as I hate to say it, America's behind the curve...

Matches being faster/more "enjoyable" is not the issue (and I don't think they were BTW, compared to US tournament matches).

 

[Zack353]

I wasn't talking about entertainment, Battlecow. I was talking about skill.

 

[Battlecow]

Not that that's why DL should be the sole stage. It should be the sole stage because stalling ruins the game, and will result if people play to win on hyrule.

I was just trying to sway the scrubs who don't understand competitive rulesets.

@zack- also not true. Our A and S tiers are packed with players who could beat most of Japan/maybe most of peru

 

[The Star King]

I wasn't talking about entertainment, Battlecow. I was talking about skill.

TROLOLOLOL

Anyways, Battlecow, I don't see why you're against my position (that I described in the Social thread). Can you explain to me why Hyrule must be banned NOW, instead of AFTER camping becoming a problem?

Oh and I responded before reading that post, sorry

 

[ciaza]

depends on how you measure skill

on average na may be the worst due to a giant tail of noobs that most other regions do not have

 

[Battlecow]

Because I feel like camping has already become a problem?

If we ban it now, the Apex GF's don't have to have the same problems the Genesis GF's did.

Actually A-Strife probably won't change the rules, but you get my point.

When you combine aggro players, few + far between tourneys, etc., it might be a while before we get more "proof" than we have today.

And the thread is jumpin' jumpin'

 

[asianaussie]

so in other words, battlecow thinks camping/stalling is hella boring and never wants to be camped again by kirby or something

right

and ill thank you not to underestimate the power of a single noob (me) on the quality of a countrinent

 

[Battlecow]

so in other words, battlecow thinks camping/stalling is hella boring and never wants to be camped again by kirby or something

right

and ill thank you not to underestimate the power of a single noob (me) on the quality of a countrinent

You assume so much **** about me, lol

My stance has NOTHING to do with personal experience in tourney. That's not in any way a fabrication or exaggeration. I've been camped on Hyrule before, but I haven't been any good at this game in like 6 months, and I wasn't close to top level even before I was ****. We're talking about high level play here.

 

[Sempiternity]

Pretty sure the Japanese noises were deemed too violent or something for an American release, so that's why they changed it.

Weak.

 

[Zack353]

No, I think our best players are still behind Peru and Japan. Japan just looks really good from what I've seen of them, and a lot of Peru was able to keep up with Isai. How many of us here are able to do that? Boom?

 

[The Star King]

Because I feel like camping has already become a problem?

If we ban it now, the Apex GF's don't have to have the same problems the Genesis GF's did.

Actually A-Strife probably won't change the rules, but you get my point.

When you combine aggro players, few + far between tourneys, etc., it might be a while before we get more "proof" than we have today.

And the thread is jumpin' jumpin'

What problem with Genesis GFs? Boomfan going about even with Isai's low tiers? OH NOES clearly camping on Hyrule can't be dealt with.

 

[Sempiternity]

No, I think our best players are still behind Peru and Japan. Japan just looks really good from what I've seen of them, and a lot of Peru was able to keep up with Isai. How many of us here are able to do that? Boom?

Well, and I'm not too sure on the degree of ass-kickery, but I'm pretty sure Isai rolled through Japan a few years back without any problems. You'll have to ask him, but it looks like Gerson was his biggest trial thus far, and even so, he managed to with a majority of the matches.

I'm legitimately curious how those matches would have gone on Dreamland...

Anyway, while Japan may be rife with good players, I don't think they're any better than our top players (barring Isai).

 

[Battlecow]

No, I think our best players are still behind Peru and Japan. Japan just looks really good from what I've seen of them, and a lot of Peru was able to keep up with Isai. How many of us here are able to do that? Boom?

2 guys from peru, maybe 3, could play with Isai. Everyone else got **** on, from what I saw.

Jaime and boom can do kind of the same thing that Marca and Alvin did.

As for Japan- let's not judge from videos. It's possible, I suppose, that they're as good as you think, but saying that NA is "the worst region" based on how badly Isai beat 3 of Peru's players and based on videos of Japan is dum.

Personally I think NA could win a crew battle with any of the other 3 regions.

What problem with Genesis GFs? Boomfan going about even with Isai's low tiers? OH NOES clearly camping on Hyrule can't be dealt with.

Matches taking a million hours each was the problem.

 

[Froski]

2 guys from peru, maybe 3, could play with Isai. Everyone else got **** on, from what I saw.

Jaime and boom can do kind of the same thing that Marca and Alvin did.

As for Japan- let's not judge from videos. It's possible, I suppose, that they're as good as you think, but saying that NA is "the worst region" based on how badly Isai beat 3 of Peru's players and based on videos of Japan is dum.

Personally I think NA could win a crew battle with any of the other 3 regions.



Matches taking a million hours each was the problem.

I second this statement....no **** riding intended

 

[Battlecow]

Ballin', go into finance and sell your soul to the corporate machine already so that you can host an international supertourney featuring the top 20 players from each region

 

[ciaza]

ciaza
kuromatsu
rom
james
judas/pete?

vs.

isai
boom
jaime
frogles
idc

i am 90% sure we would win

pretty sure we're planning a group trip to genesis/apex 2013

bring it!

 

[asianaussie]

You assume so much **** about me, lol

wow, battlecow be smokin today

My stance has NOTHING to do with personal experience in tourney.

This is a big problem with your argument. Action > theory when it comes to stuff like this which actually affects tourneys (tier lists etc don't affect anything but low tier tourneys, which don't really matter). In fact, for SSB64, which rarely has prizes or anything, it's hardly an issue at all.

Banning happens when something is not only theoretically broken, but also widely seen, widely applicable and widely abused by good players to shut down all (or significant amounts of) other options. It's probable that the lack of evidence is due to lack of tournaments, but you cannot point at matches of people vs Isai as general evidence, because he's ****ing Isai. Something like Boom's Link beating Isai's Pika on Hyrule would be better evidence.

2 guys from peru, maybe 3, could play with Isai. Everyone else got **** on, from what I saw.

Jaime and boom can do kind of the same thing that Marca and Alvin did.

As for Japan- let's not judge from videos. It's possible, I suppose, that they're as good as you think, but saying that NA is "the worst region" based on how badly Isai beat 3 of Peru's players and based on videos of Japan is dum.

Personally I think NA could win a crew battle with any of the other 3 regions.

He's not talking about a comparison of the top 5 or so, he's talking about the average high level player skill. That much is obvious. Isai is an outlier by any standard.

Matches taking a million hours each was the problem.

Then why not talk about enforcing a time limit instead of banning a part of the game?

This is actually a dumb move because then we might end up with people timing their opponents out, but my point stands. Just do what I do, I get to punch anyone who camps in my tourneys.

 

[M!nt]

lol in every one of these debates it always seems like Battlecow vs Everyone Else
keep going though its funny.

 

[Olikus]

get rid of nadoes, the tent and put on a time limit, then it can be considered being a cp.

 

[Froski]

How are you gonna put a time limit on camping? srsly

 

[Glöwworm]

The boys at ED should make a GS code that allows the timer in stock matches.

 

[Zack353]

That'd be nice, but it'd be a hassle. Everyone would have to have a gameshark at tournaments.

 

[Battlecow]

lol in every one of these debates it always seems like Battlecow vs Everyone Else
keep going though its funny.

Na, I'm just at an extreme

We got SK in the "not sure" camp, Franco in the "CP" camp, Oli in the "ban" camp

Then some Aussies against us.

 

[Zack353]

The reason I think it should be counterpick is because I can see a lot of the points that the opposing side brings up, and I agree that it can be a decent stage at times. I just think that Dreamland and even Congo are a lot better competitive choices. Plus, if the person that needs Hyrule to win counterpicks it after losing on Dreamland, the person who won on Dreamland can just go right back to Dreamland after that match.

 

[Sangoku]

Oli says he's in the banning camp, but everytime we play he ends up asking to play on Hyrule

 

[The Star King]

Matches taking a million hours each was the problem.

That's not a problem. Camping being the only viable strategy would be a problem. I was under the impression that that's why you thought Hyrule should be banned, not matches being too long for your taste.

If that's seriously your main problem with the Genesis GFs... that's a strong indicator that you arrived at your position due to subjective distaste for the stage, not because you actually believe the stage is unbalanced. I'm kind of disappointed.

The average length for the Hyrule games was 53 seconds more than Dreamland's average BTW. Could be a lot worse.

 

[Battlecow]

The only reason the games ever concluded was because Isai did unsafe low-tier approaches and made them work half the time with smoke and mirrors. That's my problem; that he had to play suboptimally or let the games go on forever.

 

[Olikus]

I like peach the most. In tourneys Im okay with it as a cp. But friendlies I just wanna play on that stage all day, its so cool.

 

[asianaussie]

peach's and saffron are the most fun in friendlies imo

or hyrule, obviously

optimal play is dynamic btw

 

[clubbadubba]

The only reason the games ever concluded was because Isai did unsafe low-tier approaches and made them work half the time with smoke and mirrors. That's my problem; that he had to play suboptimally or let the games go on forever.

that's a bit of a subjective view. Maybe he thought he saw openings every time he approached. Maybe you should ask him instead of assuming he got impatient and rushed in (unless he previously said that already).

 

[Olikus]

yeah saffron is pretty cool in friendlies too. dem pokemons.

 

[felipe_9595]

I dont know if this helps, but hyrule was CP on our national tournament.

 

[The Star King]

The only reason the games ever concluded was because Isai did unsafe low-tier approaches and made them work half the time with smoke and mirrors. That's my problem; that he had to play suboptimally or let the games go on forever.

He did "unsafe low-tier approaches" and went about even with Boomfan. Maybe your point would be valid if he got *****.

What the hell is smoke and mirrors in Smash? Yeah, that's a good argument - every time somebody succesfully approaches it's because of some gimmicky trick!!!!1!1

 

[asianaussie]

What the hell is smoke and mirrors in Smash? Yeah, that's a good argument - every time somebody succesfully approaches it's because of some gimmicky trick!!!!1!1

remember that the only truly optimal, correct way to play is defensive camping, and that offensive tactics never ever work in smash because they're suboptimal and stuff

hence everyone who proactively approaches merely gimmicks their way into taking a stock

 

[Battlecow]

teleport rests and random up-B's as luigi and **** count as smoke and mirrors

ingenious one-time-only crazy stuff

SK calm down, you sound like you're about to have a coronary about this

And AA you play hentai mafia, STFU.

 

[The Star King]

Oh, something I forgot to mention - despite POOR Isai being forced to use a SUB-OPTIMAL style of play because of Hyrule's GAYNESS, he won the same ratio of Hyrule games (3/6) as Dreamland games (2/4). Funny how that works out.

I'm not even mad. The internet needs to learn to not say "dude don't be mad", it's such a cop-out.

And lol at saying Isai wins because of gimmivky tricks, ur dum

 

[Battlecow]

Isai likes hyrule and high tiers **** on DL

Things we already knew

Also deep breaths

 

[The Star King]

So you're seriously arguing Isai only won games on Hyrule because of gimmicky "teleport rests and random up-b's"? Isai? Do you even know what you're saying?

Also editing is slow because of my laggy iPhone so see above.

 

[Battlecow]

No, of course I don't mean that Isai won solely because of gimmicks. Those were just examples of smoke and mirrors, because you posited that such a thing did not exist in smash.

He had to improvise to get in, and he would have done better to hang back in many situations. All I'm saying. All I've been saying.

I'm asking you to calm down because it makes me uncomfortable to think that I may be genuinely hurting your feelings. I feel that the tone of the discourse is raised if both parties can approach the discussion in a non-ragey manner. That's not a cop-out.