How would the meta-game change?

[SaveMeJebus]

That does not explain why Japanese ICs go for the infinites, Falcos go for the chain grabs and DDDs( 9b) infinite other DDDs on the ledge. Maybe their MKs don't play like that because they would get wrecked if they do. Remember what happened to M2K at apex?

 

[Shockna]

That does not explain why Japanese ICs go for the infinites, Falcos go for the chain grabs and DDDs( 9b) infinite other DDDs on the ledge. Maybe their MKs don't play like that because they would get wrecked if they do. Remember what happened to M2K at apex?

He barely lost, and it went down to the wire? I don't seem to remember M2K getting completely wrecked; he did get bodied one of those rounds, but that was a damn close match, all told (Assuming you're talking about the losers finals with Brood).

Not exactly the total devastation you're looking for. Honestly though, it's pretty damn obvious that you've probably never left the US with the level of assumption you make about people in other cultures.

 

[John12346]

ICs, Falco, and Dedede chaingrabs/infinites are accepted and legitimate parts of those respective characters' metagames in Japan, as well as in NA.

MK scrooging, planking, being gay all around, etc. is not accepted as legitimate parts of his metagame in either community, as well. NA attempts to fix these issues through various limits but the current ruleset does not solve all of the problems inherent in MK's design. The result: MK remains a broken piece of crap who takes in almost half of all tournament money.

Japan's fix for this entire mess is simply not doing those such things that makes MK such a threat. The idea is to play to be the best(broken record, I know). If they plank/scrooge their opponents for 10 minutes, can they really say they're the better player? The point is to show your skills in Japan, not to take advantage of gay lame glitches inherent in an overpowered character's design to win at all costs and send other players home feeling blue.

I'm leaving this to the rest of you guys, because I'm really tired and need some sleep. For those of you just tuning in, the argument is to prove why MK isn't a dominant force in Japan.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because I know you'll bring this up, Jebus, yes: It is very hypocritical for the Japanese to consider some really gay tactics like Dedede's infinites legitimate while other equally gay tactics are illegitimate (scrooging).

Just because it is non-sensical, doesn't make it false, however.

 

[Ghostbone]

We really need an opinion from a japanese player on this >.>

 

[Doc King]

Tyrant won an MK banned tournament which proves that MK isn't broken and that top MK players are just really good.

Not really. One tournament doesn't prove much.

What if I told you that Tearbear got second at this same tournament?

So?

But what proof do we have of MK being broken other than top MK players consistently placing in the money

@ steam, new characters are going to have to be tested in an MK banned tournament since most players lost their mains and secondaries.

The fact that pretty much all of the top players use MK, MK getting half of the tourney paper, MK having no bad matchups and probably no even ones, etc.

Melee Fox and 64 Pikachu also have no disadvantageous MUs. The ledge grab limit is enforced on all characters. FD is a bad stage for MK.

Melee Fox loses to Marth and Falco. Fox also can lose to Puff on certain stages like RC. MK still ***** hard on FD.

Even though I don't believe you, that still leaves SSB 64 Pikachu. In SOCAL we've always had the LGL set to 35 for every character and there was never a problem. I don't know why the BBR thinks that every other character needs 50 ledge grabs. They've also already found proof that MK's perfect planking is beatable.

MK loses to ICs, Diddy and Fox on FD

No he doesn't. If he was, then why is he God Tier in the current tier list? Even if he did, MK can just strike, ban, or not pick that stage so he wouldn't lose.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302006

Ban Pikachu

Lol, a matchup chart based on ONE stage doesn't prove a character to be banned.

MK loses to Diddy slightly on FD.

sorry for the double post

lol no. MK can just abuse his air mobility against Diddy.

I have shown proof that MK players can win tournaments even without having to use MK. If MK is really the only reason that we have a LGL, then why is it that the BBR added it to the rule set after Will (DK) planked his way to victory against Rich brown?

DK's plank game isn't as broken as Meta Knight's. Also MK has a lot of other broken stuff to him unlike DK like best recovery, best gimp and air game, etc. DK also has some noticable weaknesses like chain grabbing, juggles, comboing, etc.

Look at it this way. If this tournament was not MK banned, Tyrant's winnings would be added to MK's winnings which is the reason why MK makes so much of the money. It's not the character, it's the player.

No, Ally used to get beat by M2K until he switched to MK and then he was able to beat M2K and even make M2K rage quit in CoT5 singles. That's a good example as to why MK should get a ban.

One of Tearbears posts on AIB: "the tourny sets between me and tyrant were kinda gay cause it was just CPing
who ever would guess right on the double blind pick would usually win the 1st match and the whole set plus unity rule set was in play so I could never stay luigi on a cp or something cause of the infinite being allowed etc etc"

Is this really how we want the game to be?

WAYYYYYYYY better than having MK dittoes all of the time and not seeing anyone else in tournaments. Do you really want to go to Brawl tourneys just to see a bunch of MK marathons?

There is nothing wrong with what we have. All I see is top players winning with a top tier character. Take that character away from them and the will be winning with their next best character. Take that one away from them and they will still be winning with their next best character.

You don't remove a character just because a top player chooses to use him. Why don't you prove that MK is broken by winning the next national with him?

We have proved it over the years with so many top ppl using MK in NATIONALS and Ally switching to MK and able to beat M2K in CoT5. Also mk getting so much of the tourney money proves why he should get banned.

Also, unlike mk, the other characters actually have there bad matchups and so character counters can finally exist.

1.In that case there should have never been a LGL for anyone besides MK.

2.There is no reason to ban MK. He is not broken. Top players that win money with him can still win money with other characters. Stages like Brinstar and RC make it so that most players are forced to pick up secondaries (and who's a better secondary than MK). Places that have these stages banned don't seem to have as big of an MK problem as we do. I don't think thos stages need to be banned. I just think we need a better rule set

3. I can do that because it's my opinion.

2. Got any proof for the bolded stuff? And also who's the secondarythen, MK? Cause mk is like players only choice to success nowadays.

1.The point is that the LGL is enforced on every character

2. I don't have to do that. I already have proof that stages like Brinstar and RC cause MK usage to go up. Just look at the tournament results of other countries that have those stages banned. I know of players in the US who have picked up MK just to fight on these stages. TKD, Mike Haze, DEHF, I've seen Gnes use MK on these stages. By using this character for these stages, they increase the number of MK usage since it comes out in the tournament results.

3. Nobody can state match ups as facts.

2. It's not just rc and brinstar, mk has been successful pretty much everywhere in the U.S. in pretty much everyway.

3. In this situation, stating matchups would be a good fact to bring up on this discussion.

Players usually ban RC or Brinstar against MK and the only reason those stages don't have as many bans as FD is because you only get one ban.

The fact that you can only ban one of those makes stage banning useless. MK ***** on neutrals and really ***** on cps.

 

[M@v]

I do however see Ally losing to MK's that aren't half his skill level. Or I did before he switched to MK.........................

Enlighten me. I only ever saw him lose to m2k, adhd, and the occasional Marth.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't know where the hell you are getting this honor code from? If your honor code were true, there would be no Meta Knights in Japan.

Have you ever considered the possibility that some Japanese players actually LIKE MK, and are not picking him just to be gay and win everything?

It's not rocket science.

 

[Akaku94]

Exactly... even before brawl came out, I wanted to main MK just from looking at the Dojo... after relizing that he was the best character in the game, I backed off him because I don't like using the best (personal preference), but I'm suer others suck with him because he's a cool character to play... that's not out of the question. There's a difference between playing MK because he's the best and playing him because you enjoy playing with him

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It still doesn't make sense why they would need a ten minute timer. If they don't play to win, there is no need for a ten minute timer.



@ John12346, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H_Jil1CBNs

 

[John12346]

The 10 minute timer's existence doesn't solely need to be attributed to MK. Japanese players play very campily, so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine the timer to be increased to supplement such a metagame.

As far as that video... I don't really know how to explain that one away, but keep in mind MK DID ultimately win that match because of scrooging/planking tactics. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that, if more players played like that in Japan, then Japan would easily be dominated by MK, because there are no real countermeasures to scrooging/planking outside of getting REALLY lucky.

Let's see some more videos, in any case. One is not going to convince anyone, and I still hold that Japan MKs rarely play like the one depicted in your video.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The 10 minute timer's existence doesn't solely need to be attributed to MK. Japanese players play very campily, so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine the timer to be increased to supplement such a metagame.

As far as that video... I don't really know how to explain that one away, but keep in mind MK DID ultimately win that match because of scrooging/planking tactics. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that, if more players played like that in Japan, then Japan would easily be dominated by MK, because there are no real countermeasures to scrooging/planking outside of getting REALLY lucky.

Let's see some more videos, in any case. One is not going to convince anyone, and I still hold that Japan MKs rarely play like the one depicted in your video.

I don't really need to show any more videos. This video proves that not everyone follows this code of honor. If Otori plays like that, shouldn't he be winning every tournament he attends?

 

[John12346]

Your video shows one person didn't follow the honor code once. I'm not convinced.

That was also Game 3 of the set, where the count was 1-1. Who's to say Otori didn't panic and pull a Will vs RichBrown in that ONE instance? You're gonna need to show some more than that.

Also, @ everyone else, I wouldn't mind some assistance here. I'm not the best debater around, so...

 

[Doc King]

Well I see 9B do very well against MK with the Ice Climbers because of his tech skill. Also I saw a falco once beat a mk with proper spacing and stuff. I think mainly the reason why Japan doesn't have a mk problem is because of their reflexes.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Your video shows one person didn't follow the honor code once. I'm not convinced.

That was also Game 3 of the set, where the count was 1-1. Who's to say Otori didn't panic and pull a Will vs RichBrown in that ONE instance? You're gonna need to show some more than that.

Also, @ everyone else, I wouldn't mind some assistance here. I'm not the best debater around, so...

You don't all of a sudden start scrooging someone because you don't know what to do, especially if you play by a code of honor. I can understand planking because you can't find a safe way in but you have to know what you are doing when you scrooge.

 

[John12346]

He obviously didn't know what to do if he was scrooging/planking the whole match instead of staying on the stage and fighting...

Now, I ask you again, do you have more examples of this happening in recent Japanese gameplay, or is this all you've got?

 

[Doc King]

I don't really need to show any more videos. This video proves that not everyone follows this code of honor. If Otori plays like that, shouldn't he be winning every tournament he attends?

You seem to claim too many things without having much proof to it. John never said that mks never win, he just said that Japan doesn't have a mk problem.

Also this is getting way out of topic, we're supossed to talk about how the metagame would change, not comparing the U.S. metagame to Japans Metagame.

 

[John12346]

Uh, Doc, I'm not sure if you got the memo, but Jebus and I both agree Japan doesn't have an MK problem.

What we're arguing is WHY Japan doesn't have an MK problem. Jebus feels it's because MK just isn't broken, and I feel it's due to all of the reasons I've stated in the previous page.

 

[V]

I agree with john, MK is broken, they just choose not to fully abuse it because they don't believe it proves you're the better player.

 

[Doc King]

I actually heard from ADHD that MK's metagame is actually improving a lot and the others aren't really cause of the overdominance of mk.

@John Ok, Sorry, I thought you guys were arguing over whether or not Japan had a prob with mk.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

He obviously didn't know what to do if he was scrooging/planking the whole match instead of staying on the stage and fighting...

Now, I ask you again, do you have more examples of this happening in recent Japanese gameplay, or is this all you've got?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=744mBhebY6w


It would be stupid for him to camp or Scrooge in matches like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbh_to9AE_I
He would just be timing himself out if he did.

 

[John12346]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=744mBhebY6w

From a different set, by a different person, if you would be so kind. Your point doesn't work if you're using matches from the very same set, where the tactic as already been established as a strategy that would be used for the whole set.

It would be stupid for him to camp or Scrooge in matches like these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbh_to9AE_I
He would just be timing himself out if he did.

You can't say for sure that he would scrooge if he had the lead in this particular match.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

From a different set, by a different person, if you would be so kind. Your point doesn't work if you're using matches from the very same set, where the tactic as already been established as a strategy that would be used for the whole set.


You can't say for sure that he would scrooge if he had the lead in this particular match.

But you said that he might have been scrooging because he didn't know what to do. From the looks of it, he knew exactly what he was doing in the first match of the set

 

[Krystedez]

Other prizes, as in...?

Unless these prizes stack up to the fifties or hundreds or THOUSANDS of dollars of payouts guaranteed at NA Brawl tournaments, Metaknight cannot legitimately break the honor code held by the Japanese players. They truly work on a completely different level from us, and care more about showing who the better player is, rather than winning at all costs.

Rain came to Genesis 2 and used Meta Knight more than he used Falco. In my match with him after handily two-stocking or low-percent one stocking him I forget which on the first round, he went falco and dominated me on FD. When we went to my CP, Brinstar, we fought very little but kept the damage on me to so he could run and keep away. I am able to pull all the stops with Wario's bike and force MK to approach on stages like Brinny.

When it came down to the last minute, he hauled *** away from me the entire time with me at like 119 him at 116, and then when it got down to 20 seconds, I ran over, full wafted him, but it didn't hit (wario's head was what I was aiming to hit with) because I got damaged by tornado. I had 123 after that, leaving him more in the lead. With the last 10 seconds I was chasing him frantically to regain the lead, but it was no use. Unfortunately for him I had chased him into a weird position, and instead of like UP B or landing on the top platform to regain his jumps, he stalled out with tornado the last 3 seconds, but tornado ended too soon for the timer, and he hit the acid and got to 126ish percent. I won that match because he tried timing me out and failed.

I think Japanese players CAN break the code of honor. But should they really attempt to do so without first maining Meta Knight only, and PRACTICING breaking that code of honor, like American players do on a daily basis? Look at M2K, I bet you anything he's got the ledge grab invincibility frames down pat, knows the best trajectories to rise and fall when scrooging any stage, and has every option figured out to time people out by air-camping. Rain did not, and failed because he tried to do so.

TL;DR, Rain wasn't that good with MK-time-out-strat or playing against me with mk in general, but he was better with Falco. He didn't know how to handle Wario's obviously superior air speed and bike game

 

[John12346]

But you said that he might have been scrooging because he didn't know what to do. From the looks of it, he knew exactly what he was doing in the first match of the set

Watch Game 2, and viola, Otori has reasonable cause to be scared for Game 3.

Also, Krystedez, would you say that your dissertation could be used to indicate that Japanese players are not used to playing like complete ******s, because they evidently weren't aware of how to do it properly when they actually tried it? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with your post, so...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Watch Game 2, and viola, Otori has reasonable cause to be scared for Game 3.

Also, Krystedez, would you say that your dissertation could be used to indicate that Japanese players are not used to playing like complete ******s, because they evidently weren't aware of how to do it properly when they actually tried it? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with your post, so...

They are two completely different stages. FD is Diddy's best stage. If he beat him solidly on Smashville once, he should have had no problem doing it again.

 

[John12346]

Because momentum shifts don't exist. Regardless, this point isn't related to anything.

Do you have more videos showing these strategies being used in Japan in different timeframes, or is this all you have to offer?

 

[Spelt]

lol how has this not been locked yet.

This discussion has been discussed to hell and back already ... multiple times.

and that's all well and good except discussion accomplishes nothing.
what we need is data.

 

[Tesh]

They aren't even talking about the original theme of the OP anymore...

 

[John12346]

Then maybe we should talk about the OP, or do we all already agree the answer is "For the better"?

 

[Piratehunter]

What if Meta Knight were banned?

Would Diddy be the next dominating force in tournaments? Would many players quit Brawl? Would top 10 placing characters be more diverse?

Voice your predictions and opinions if this actually happened.

Note: Moderators, if this thread should turn into a MK-Ban argument, please lock this. This thread is not intended that kind of discussion.

Why the hell do you wanna ban mk so badly. mk doesnt spam grabs. the ice climbers spam grabs. BAN THOSE ******** COUPLE! THEY TAKE NO SKILL TO USE, THEY JUST SPAM GRABS LIKE ****ING *******!

 

[Spelt]

They aren't even talking about the original theme of the OP anymore...

LOL.

even more of a reason for this thread to be locked.
derp.

 

[V]

^ actually they kinda do take skill to use... If you keep getting grabbed then don't get grabbed? And people want MK banned because he overcentralizes everything and at mid level is much easier to play and take out other mid level players with. Mid level players will lose to high players regardless of character, but it's far too easy to take out other mid level players with MK, and mid level players make up a majority of the community. But regarding the metagame without MK, it would be much more diverse. The top four characters would see an equal amount of tournament wins IMO. It would be interesting to see.

 

[Judo777]

One of Tearbears posts on AIB: "the tourny sets between me and tyrant were kinda gay cause it was just CPing
who ever would guess right on the double blind pick would usually win the 1st match and the whole set plus unity rule set was in play so I could never stay luigi on a cp or something cause of the infinite being allowed etc etc"

Is this really how we want the game to be?

Oh those poor players! You mean to tell me that they would actually have to deal with and learn bad MU's????? That's ridiculous and absurd!!!!!!!!!!!!.................................................................

 

[V]

^ lolololol

Learn. Bad. Match ups.

It's not hard. Plenty of people do it. And yes, many people want the game to come to that.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Because momentum shifts don't exist. Regardless, this point isn't related to anything.

Do you have more videos showing these strategies being used in Japan in different timeframes, or is this all you have to offer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxMC9ljbVp0

 

[John12346]

Strange, I don't seem to recall the legitimacy of Pit's completely beatable planking ever being called into question in competitive play.

There are plenty of ways to beat Pit planking, unlike MK planking. 9B simply did not for some reason.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Strange, I don't seem to recall the legitimacy of Pit's completely beatable planking ever being called into question in competitive play.

What about the code of honor? what does it say about planking in general? Besides, what the hell do you want me to show you from a country that isn't completely dominated by MKs?

 

[John12346]

Jebus, consider the one thing that caused an LGL to be put into existence in the first place - Meta Knight. Sure, it was supplemented for the rest of the cast to make sure matches don't become boring very quickly, but it's universally agreed that all planking outside of Meta Knight's is beatable. When a victory is attained through Meta Knight's planking, the user cannot truly say that they are the better player, because beating Meta Knight's planking does not fall under the criteria of skills that we wish to test in this game. Beating everyone else's planking - annoying as it is - does, and hence also does not break any unspoken "honor codes" when used, because those are simply match-up specific techniques.

There's no real definition for the honor code in Japan, but it is basically an agreement to not use techniques that do not fall into the subset of skills we wish to test in the game. In Brawl's case, Meta Knight's planking and scrooging is the only thing that satisfies said criteria.

Looping back to your point, this means you need to show me videos of Japanese players playing like complete ******s with MK to prove your point. Anything else just doesn't fit the bill, and so far, you've only showed me one video to attest to your point, and that's simply not enough.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I already showed you Otori vs Nagahari. Two videos of him planking and scrooging. The fact that he could do that in this set means that he could do it in any other set if given the chance.