How would the meta-game change?

[Ghostbone]

Marth's recovery also sucks compared to MK's, MK has a better up-b OoS, MK out-ranges Marth on the ground, MK doesn't have RCO lag, MK has better ledge traps, and MK has nado.

 

[Kuro~]

Marth mk is pretty close on neutrals imo. Mk still beats him simply due to breadth of options compared to marth though. And his ability to cover more options.


Mk doesn't outrange marth on the ground lol.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

*sits here in europe laughing and watching Marth win every single ****ing tournament*

I think Marth goes even with MK on basically any stage other than RC or Brinstar.

Maybe that has something to do with the fact that both of those stages are banned over there (or at least no one at top level play uses them)

 

[Ghostbone]

Mk doesn't outrange marth on the ground lol.

F-tilt outranges everything but shield breaker.

 

[Kuro~]

Yup cuz mk can constantly safely poke marth with ftilt...perfectly spaced every time and marth can't dash shield to db,ds, or grab...

On a side note i agree about jebus. One tournament is def. not justification. That's just bad thinking. We'll have to gather more data to draw any conclusions.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yup cuz mk can constantly safely poke marth with ftilt...perfectly spaced every time and marth can't dash shield to db,ds, or grab...

That's not out-ranging lol.

Oh and I'm sure Marth can perfectly predict MK's mix-ups after f-tilt 1 and punish right?

 

[Life]

*sits here in europe laughing and watching Marth win every single ****ing tournament*

I think Marth goes even with MK on basically any stage other than RC or Brinstar.

Europe has better Marths and worse MKs, that helps.

 

[Kuro~]

That's not out-ranging lol.

Oh and I'm sure Marth can perfectly predict MK's mix-ups after f-tilt 1 and punish right?

You act like he has frame advantage...your the one saying oh mk wins cuz he outranges marth with one move and has nado. Those aren't the reasons he wins.

Plus ftilt one doesn't outrange everything. And i'd love to see the mk that could space it perfect everytime he used it in a REAL match with marth zoning and retreating.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You act like he has frame advantage...your the one saying oh mk wins cuz he outranges marth with one move and has nado. Those aren't the reasons he wins.

Plus ftilt one doesn't outrange everything. And i'd love to see the mk that could space it perfect everytime he used it in a REAL match with marth zoning and retreating.

Theoretically, it outranges everything Marth has except for shield breaker. If the two characters are standing at a certain distance from one another, Marth's Shield Breaker is the only attack that is going to be able to outrange anything MK has. Range and spacing are two completely different things.

 

[Judo777]

I have shown proof that MK players can win tournaments even without having to use MK. If MK is really the only reason that we have a LGL, then why is it that the BBR added it to the rule set after Will (DK) planked his way to victory against Rich brown?

We didn't. Will planking Rich Brown isn't even a large problem. Its not like DK's planking is even that hard to stop. Its just hard to stop FOR OLIMAR ON YOSHIS ISLAND! Any character with an ordinary spike can stop DK's planking.

Also I have a hard time believing your not a troll with posts like "Tyrant won an MK banned tournaments proves MK's not broken." So if I host a tournament where the top 12 characters are MK does that prove he is? Cause I can call up 12 MK mains and hold a 16 man bracket with 4 cpus.

Also how on earth can call you MU's you don't really know about and say they are even. "Diddy and IC's are even with MK on FD" thats funny because most of the mains of those characters say that they aren't. More so I have a hard time believing that IC's go even with MK anywhere at all. This isn't 2009. Most importantly even IF by somehow they are even, it doesn't matter MK gets a ban.

 

[Ghostbone]

You act like he has frame advantage...your the one saying oh mk wins cuz he outranges marth with one move and has nado. Those aren't the reasons he wins.

Plus ftilt one doesn't outrange everything. And i'd love to see the mk that could space it perfect everytime he used it in a REAL match with marth zoning and retreating.

MK's d-tilt also has more range than Marth's, and is faster.

MK just wins when zoning on the ground.

And you act like the MK won't also be zoning and retreating.

MK does it better than Marth.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

We didn't. Will planking Rich Brown isn't even a large problem. Its not like DK's planking is even that hard to stop. Its just hard to stop FOR OLIMAR ON YOSHIS ISLAND! Any character with an ordinary spike can stop DK's planking.

Also I have a hard time believing your not a troll with posts like "Tyrant won an MK banned tournaments proves MK's not broken." So if I host a tournament where the top 12 characters are MK does that prove he is? Cause I can call up 12 MK mains and hold a 16 man bracket with 4 cpus.

Also how on earth can call you MU's you don't really know about and say they are even. "Diddy and IC's are even with MK on FD" thats funny because most of the mains of those characters say that they aren't. More so I have a hard time believing that IC's go even with MK anywhere at all. This isn't 2009. Most importantly even IF by somehow they are even, it doesn't matter MK gets a ban.

1.In that case there should have never been a LGL for anyone besides MK.

2.There is no reason to ban MK. He is not broken. Top players that win money with him can still win money with other characters. Stages like Brinstar and RC make it so that most players are forced to pick up secondaries (and who's a better secondary than MK). Places that have these stages banned don't seem to have as big of an MK problem as we do. I don't think thos stages need to be banned. I just think we need a better rule set

3. I can do that because it's my opinion.

 

[Steam]

1.In that case there should have never been a LGL for anyone besides MK.

2.There is no reason to ban MK. He is not broken.

HURRR DURRR

lol

 

[Judo777]

1.In that case there should have never been a LGL for anyone besides MK.

2.There is no reason to ban MK. He is not broken. Top players that win money with him can still win money with other characters. Stages like Brinstar and RC make it so that most players are forced to pick up secondaries (and who's a better secondary than MK). Places that have these stages banned don't seem to have as big of an MK problem as we do. I don't think thos stages need to be banned. I just think we need a better rule set

3. I can do that because it's my opinion.

1. Character specific rules are ********. I won't even count IDC (which might be legit cause its obviously a glitch).

2. Prove it please. Just because those players can win A tournament without MK doesn't mean EVERY MK can still win without MK. Show me a national with the EXACT same (relatively speaking) results as an ordinary National with MK mains swapped with other characters and you might have a leg to stand on. Like I want to see Gensis 3 with 1. M2K (Marth) 2. Ally (Snake) 3. Anti (Falco) 4. Tyrant (Wario) 5. Gnes and ADHD 7. Rich and Mikehaze DEHF.......

I want to see these MK's like Tear Bear and Tyrant and Anti and M2K STILL outplacing ADHD, Ally, Gnes, Rich Brown, DEHF, Mikehaze. 1 tournament doesn't mean anything. Ganondorf won the last big MK banned tournament. Does that mean Ganondorf is high tier with Mk gone?

3. that's cool don't state them like facts then.

 

[Life]

It is my opinion that grass is blue.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

1. Character specific rules are ********. I won't even count IDC (which might be legit cause its obviously a glitch).

2. Prove it please. Just because those players can win A tournament without MK doesn't mean EVERY MK can still win without MK. Show me a national with the EXACT same (relatively speaking) results as an ordinary National with MK mains swapped with other characters and you might have a leg to stand on. Like I want to see Gensis 3 with 1. M2K (Marth) 2. Ally (Snake) 3. Anti (Falco) 4. Tyrant (Wario) 5. Gnes and ADHD 7. Rich and Mikehaze DEHF.......

I want to see these MK's like Tear Bear and Tyrant and Anti and M2K STILL outplacing ADHD, Ally, Gnes, Rich Brown, DEHF, Mikehaze. 1 tournament doesn't mean anything. Ganondorf won the last big MK banned tournament. Does that mean Ganondorf is high tier with Mk gone?

3. that's cool don't state them like facts then.

1.The point is that the LGL is enforced on every character

2. I don't have to do that. I already have proof that stages like Brinstar and RC cause MK usage to go up. Just look at the tournament results of other countries that have those stages banned. I know of players in the US who have picked up MK just to fight on these stages. TKD, Mike Haze, DEHF, I've seen Gnes use MK on these stages. By using this character for these stages, they increase the number of MK usage since it comes out in the tournament results.

3. Nobody can state match ups as facts.

 

[Judo777]

1.The point is that the LGL is enforced on every character

2. I don't have to do that. I already have proof that stages like Brinstar and RC cause MK usage to go up. Just look at the tournament results of other countries that have those stages banned. I know of players in the US who have picked up MK just to fight on these stages. TKD, Mike Haze, DEHF, I've seen Gnes use MK on these stages. By using this character for these stages, they increase the number of MK usage since it comes out in the tournament results.

3. Nobody can state match ups as facts.

2. You should tell that to OS and watch whats happen. His data from MLG ACTUALLY points to the opposite of that. You don't have proof you have simply watched matches that are in favor of that common opinion (which I actually agree with but your proof isn't real proof). I wanna see data that beats OS' before you can claim its proof.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308246
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306215

 

[Judo777]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308246
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306215

Yea man your data is a joke compared to OS'. I would quote one of his posts but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to since it was actually in a BBR discussion.

His actually has you know graphs and percentages of character usage on stages and stock differences between games on certain stages.

His data actually points to MK having the largest win percentage on Halberd and Deflino.

Granted his data was only based on ALL of the tournaments from MLG but it is EONS closer to being proof than what you just posted.

Like your data has correlations like this. These tournies have brinstar and RC banned and don't have as many MK's in the top therefore MK must be more common with these stages legal.

In a likewise sense, MK was banned from this 1 tournament and Ganondorf won therefore Ganondorf must be a good character with MK gone..........

 

[C.J.]

The only problem w/ OS's data is that it doesn't include MK dittos on those stages. So, when someone is a (say fox) main, and gets CPed to Brin/RC and switches to MK, and still loses (they switched because they knew they would get ***** harder as their main (fox for the sake of the argument) than as MK).

So, that doesn't count towards MK winning there. Additionally, with the high number of MKs that will run into a super top level player (ADHD, Gnes, Ally, etc) it doesn't matter where an average MK will take them. They'll still lose. And the MKs will always take them to Brinstar/RC leaving only the better MK players to CP Delfino thus giving RC/Brinstar a deflated winning %.

As for Halberd, some people consider it to be a "bad" MK stage so they'll CP high level MKs there and still get ***** (This however is far less important.)

I'm not saying that OS's data is wrong. Just that it leaves some more room to interpret than at first glance.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It is really hard to find any tournament results from other countries. I have seen that MLG data. It shows that when combined, Brinstar and RC have more bans than FD and any other stage combined.

 

[Judo777]

The only problem w/ OS's data is that it doesn't include MK dittos on those stages. So, when someone is a (say fox) main, and gets CPed to Brin/RC and switches to MK, and still loses (they switched because they knew they would get ***** harder as their main (fox for the sake of the argument) than as MK).

So, that doesn't count towards MK winning there. Additionally, with the high number of MKs that will run into a super top level player (ADHD, Gnes, Ally, etc) it doesn't matter where an average MK will take them. They'll still lose. And the MKs will always take them to Brinstar/RC leaving only the better MK players to CP Delfino thus giving RC/Brinstar a deflated winning %.

As for Halberd, some people consider it to be a "bad" MK stage so they'll CP high level MKs there and still get ***** (This however is far less important.)

I'm not saying that OS's data is wrong. Just that it leaves some more room to interpret than at first glance.

I agree with you for the most part and I DO think Brinstar and RC causes a spike in MK usage. My point is that he doesn't have proof which he doesn't. He doesn't have anything close to proof. OS' has stuff far closer to proof.

My point is stop taking small tournament samples and making large generalizations from something that you aren't sure is what caused those results. Maybe at that tournament all the MK's just lost cause they aren't near as good as the other players. And they didn't get free wins off their CPs. Maybe thats not it at all and maybe just all played horrid at those tournaments. Or maybe with those stages banned the MK players didn't know where the hell to CP people to and picked really stupid stages that would change if they were used to the stages being banned (granted in those samples I understand thats not the case but my point is that you don't really know).

@Jebus and how does that compare to any other ordinary CP stage also? Also did you take into account that those are also stages that many people just don't like. I hate RC. When I am playing freaking Marth (understand that Sheik and Marth like all the same stages) I ban RC just because I don't have anywhere good to ban and I hate that stage. When I play Luigi I ban RC because I hate that stage. Some people just don;t like acid or moving stages so they ban it.

 

[C.J.]

It is really hard to find any tournament results from other countries. I have seen that MLG data. It shows that when combined, Brinstar and RC have more bans than FD and any other stage combined.

I... I don't see why that is relevant to anything, at all, lol.

I agree with you for the most part and I DO think Brinstar and RC causes a spike in MK usage. My point is that he doesn't have proof which he doesn't. He doesn't have anything close to proof. OS' has stuff far closer to proof.

My point is stop taking small tournament samples and making large generalizations from something that you aren't sure is what caused those results. Maybe at that tournament all the MK's just lost cause they aren't near as good as the other players. And they didn't get free wins off their CPs. Maybe thats not it at all and maybe just all played horrid at those tournaments. Or maybe with those stages banned the MK players didn't know where the hell to CP people to and picked really stupid stages that would change if they were used to the stages being banned (granted in those samples I understand thats not the case but my point is that you don't really know).

Agreed. Just used to OS's data being thrown about as end all proof. And it's not. So I just copy/paste that a lot, lol.

I see what you mean, and retracted.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Players usually ban RC or Brinstar against MK and the only reason those stages don't have as many bans as FD is because you only get one ban.

 

[Judo777]

Players usually ban RC or Brinstar against MK and the only reason those stages don't have as many bans as FD is because you only get one ban.

Players also ban RC or Brinstar regardless of the situation sometimes. Ganon ALWAYS bans RC. IC's ALWAYS bans one of those 2 stages (unless they pocket another char). Falco usually bans one of those 2 stages regardless (see IC's). Olimar usually bans one of those 2 stages regardless (see IC's). Diddy bans those stages a TON. Snake used to ban RC all the time.

Like its not as simple as you say.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Players also ban RC or Brinstar regardless of the situation sometimes. Ganon ALWAYS bans RC. IC's ALWAYS bans one of those 2 stages (unless they pocket another char). Falco usually bans one of those 2 stages regardless (see IC's). Olimar usually bans one of those 2 stages regardless (see IC's). Diddy bans those stages a TON. Snake used to ban RC all the time.

Like its not as simple as you say.

Those same characters wouldn't ban any of those stages against each other (except maybe ICs) unless they knew their opponent had a pocket character.

 

[Judo777]

Those same characters wouldn't ban any of those stages against each other (except maybe ICs) unless they knew their opponent had a pocket character.

That's not true AT ALL. Falco would ban FD against IC's in a heart beat. Same for Olimar against IC's most likely. Olimar would probably ban FD against Falco too. Olimar would ban FD against Diddy iirc.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That's not true AT ALL. Falco would ban FD against IC's in a heart beat. Same for Olimar against IC's most likely. Olimar would probably ban FD against Falco too. Olimar would ban FD against Diddy iirc.

No, I meant they wouldn't ban RC or Brinstar against each other.

 

[Judo777]

No, I meant they wouldn't ban RC or Brinstar against each other.

That might not be true either. I could see and IC player banning RC against a Diddy (if the IC had no secondary) and IC's would definitely ban Brinstar against Diddy (again no secondary). Same with Falco since Falco doesn't mind FD Brinstar might be Diddys best CP in that MU (because Diddy isn't half bad on that stage).

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That might not be true either. I could see and IC player banning RC against a Diddy (if the IC had no secondary) and IC's would definitely ban Brinstar against Diddy (again no secondary). Same with Falco since Falco doesn't mind FD Brinstar might be Diddys best CP in that MU (because Diddy isn't half bad on that stage).

I already mentioned that ICs might ban those stages.

Here's my question to you. If MK is as dominant as players say he is, how come we don't see this dominance in Japan or Europe?

 

[John12346]

Here's my question to you. If MK is as dominant as players say he is, how come we don't see this dominance in Japan or Europe?

EU does not hold tournaments very often. According to one reliable source, there have only been some 20-30 tournaments in EU for the whole of 2011. Please explain how, given this, the metagame can possibly evolve as quickly as the NA metagame does...

For all we know, given a few years time, EU might actually end up in a metagame where MK is ultimately the enormous dominant factor of Brawl, much like the way it is in NA currently, and there's no way you can disprove this idea any more than I can disprove your theory that "EU doesn't have an MK problem = MK isn't broken."

In addition to that, keep in mind EU doesn't have as heavy of a "play to win" mentality that NA does. EU has more of a mentality along the lines of "try to win, but make sure the game stays hot n' spicy," so the game ultimately doesn't centralize around picking Metaknight, but rather picking a character one is really comfortable with. You can see this very clearly in EU tournament results, where MK usage in general is very scarce.

Also, Brinstar and RC are banned in EU. This alone discourages people from picking MK up as a character in the first place. It doesn't make him any less good of a character, but it does cause MK to see a decline in his usage as a whole. This cannot apply to NA, because we had Brinstar and RC legal for a very long time, and people were able to find out that MK is a complete **** machine even without those two stages.

Basically, removing Brinstar and RC from NA stagelists at this point in the game will affect MK's dominance only by a minimal amount because we know MK has a ****load of more keys to success other than Brinstar and RC, while introducing Brinstar and RC to EU would cause MK's dominance to begin to increase by a lot, because the learning curve for MK would decrease and his ease of use would suddenly skyrocket.

As I already said, the difference in Europe with MK's is not really quality but quantity.

Diddy and Wario bandwagons were naturally not as large because those characters are harder to play and not as good. But the MK bandwagon in the USA is just too large because players are induced into a competitive mentality which revolves around taking the best possible tools to win no matter what.

It's the same with other fighting games. Back in the old SSF2T days, you'd have Japanese crews with a lot of character variety and american crews who were only either Sagat or Boxer. And guess what, the Japanese were still the better ones. They don't pick a character just because they want to win, they pick what they enjoy playing with the most and develop interesting game play with them that is bound to take the metagame by surprise. It must be due to the fact that there are never prize money tournaments in Japan. Here in Europe we are a bit in between.

Data on Europe would be interesting btw. People are a bit too lazy and don't care enough to do it here though.

Well, if Japan, and EU to a lesser extent, don't have a "play to win" mentality, but rather have a "make sure the game is fun" mentality, then it would make a lot more sense that you guys don't have a MK problem; he's a really big hype killer, despite being the clear easiest path to victory(granted, time still needs to be put into the character to some extent), y'know?

I would love for NA to adopt your guys' mentalities, but this is the road we've chosen, and now look at the MK issue we have before us...

-___-;

tl:dr, no one cares about europe

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Japan does play to win. have you ever seen Masashi play?

 

[John12346]

Japan also doesn't play for money.

They have reason to play as hard as they possibly can, but they equally have absolutely no reason whatsoever to use MK to achieve that end. Their goal is to show that they have skills, not to win untold amounts of money, which is the main driving force behind a lot of people's usage of MK here in NA.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Japan also doesn't play for money.

They have reason to play as hard as they possibly can, but they equally have absolutely no reason whatsoever to use MK to achieve that end. Their goal is to show that they have skills, not to win untold amounts of money, which is the main driving force behind a lot of people's usage of MK here in NA.

They get other prizes. It's not like they are doing it for nothing. If a player in the US is willing to pick up MK to better his chances at winning money, I don't see why Japanese players wouldn't do the same to win those prizes.

 

[John12346]

Other prizes, as in...?

Unless these prizes stack up to the fifties or hundreds or THOUSANDS of dollars of payouts guaranteed at NA Brawl tournaments, Metaknight cannot legitimately break the honor code held by the Japanese players. They truly work on a completely different level from us, and care more about showing who the better player is, rather than winning at all costs.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Other prizes, as in...?

Unless these prizes stack up to the fifties or hundreds or THOUSANDS of dollars of payouts guaranteed at NA Brawl tournaments, Metaknight cannot legitimately break the honor code held by the Japanese players. They truly work on a completely different level from us, and care more about showing who the better player is, rather than winning at all costs.

I don't know where the hell you are getting this honor code from? If your honor code were true, there would be no Meta Knights in Japan. Why didn't Brood or Earth Pick up MK as a secondary before coming to Apex? That tournament had a lot of money on the line. Enough to break this supposed honor system.

 

[John12346]

Jebus you edit your posts too much. You almost gave me a seizure there lmao

Anyway, the explanation for this one is pretty simple, and it's that the Japanese are so accustomed to playing in their "be the best" environment that their entire community would probably be less willing to drop their well-practiced mains for Metaknight for the sake of winning ONE tournament that occurs once a year. Can you prove that, among the multitude of tournaments that occur in Japan with no cash prizes available, and where the general idea is to prove you're the best player around, that one tournament with promises of large sums of money is enough to change their viewpoints from "be the best there is" to "play to win at all costs"?

I think you need to do a bit more research on the Japanese playing community.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Jebus you edit your posts too much. You almost gave me a seizure there lmao

Anyway, the explanation for this one is pretty simple, and it's that the Japanese are so accustomed to playing in their "be the best there is" environment that their entire community would probably be less willing to drop their well-practiced mains for Metaknight for the sake of winning ONE tournament that occurs once a year. Can you prove that, among the multitude of tournaments that occur in Japan with no cash prizes available, that one tournament with promises of large sums of money is enough to change their viewpoints from "be the best" to "play to win"?

I think you need to do a bit more research on the Japanese playing community.

They already play to win. If they didn't, there would be no reason for a ten minute timer. If there is a code of honor, then why do they still have MK mains? Is there some kind of exception to this honor code for players that actually enjoy playing as Meta Knight?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you re-read his posts, at no point did John say that the Japanese have an honor code for not using Meta Knight.

 

[John12346]

You're alluding to the idea that MK is soft banned in Japan. I never said that(Ack, ninja'd by Grim).

There's a distinct difference between trying to prove that you're the best player and trying to win.

When one is trying to prove that they're the best player, they pick the character that they're most comfortable with, instead of the character that is the easiest path to victory. In this way, Metaknight does not see an influx of overcentralization, and subsequently, dominance, but still sees his fair share of usage. You also have to keep in mind that the Japanese players do not play like complete ******s with Metaknight like we do here in NA, such as through ledge abuse, scrooging tactics and general timeout strategies. The result: MK isn't quite as dominant in Japan, and it furthers my theory that Japanese players' goals are to be the best, not to win.

Being the best player generally causes you to win.
Winning does not mean you're the best player.